Author Topic: roll cage  (Read 15969 times)

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Offline Dr Goggles

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Re: roll cage
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2013, 05:58:16 AM »
If you're going to run a NASCAR on the salt ( it's got me?????? :roll:) then you're gonna want a pretty good cage,they seem to like being upside down.
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: roll cage
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2013, 09:08:07 AM »
This is the reply I posted on the site showing the (new) NASCAR cage design.

NASCAR cages are almost completely dependent on the bending strength of each tube as they bend and collapse in a crash. The design has very few diagonals that can distribute crash loads through out the chassis efficiently. The NASCAR approach, as shown by the addition of the new “brow bar” in front of the top halo’s front bar, is to add additional tubes that provide additional bending strength rather that attempt to transfer the crash loads to the rest of the chassis. It works for them and they know the car weights, and speeds and just add tubing until the cage can carry the crash loads. An FEA analysis of this chassis would be interesting. Lots of highly loaded weld joints and tubes in bending.

They are not structurally efficient but they do a fair job for the cars that NASCAR runs, and as I said if they need to be stronger just add more tubing. I also happen not be a supporter of the SCTA flat gusset rule as it is presently written and think that I may take DW up on his suggestion.

Rex

Guys,

The priority of the "roll cage" (actually "roll-over structure"), SHOULD be to provide a "survival capsule" for its' occupant in the event of a loss of vehicle control at speeds which present a danger to the survival of the "occupant".   Let's not forget this part of the equation.

IF, by clever design, chassis rigidity can be enhanced, at NO compromise to the "survival capsule", then that would be a bonus.

There are, of course, some other considerations:

1/   How the energy of a crash will be dissapated. . . .
      A/  Will components be in tension/compression/shear?    Materials have different properties in differing situations.
      B/  Is it acceptable to dissapate energy by shedding/shearing high mass componentry from the vehicle?   Can the "survival capsule" remain intact during this process?

2/   Strength of the materials used, and the strength of the methods of joining those materials,
      A/  Conventional butt welding, even at 100% pentration, is a poor choice for joints subjected to tensile loads.   The mandatory gussets added to these types of joints add
           some shear strength to these joints.
      B/ "Bent" tubes, are most appropriate for structures subjected to compression loads, such as "door bars" or "roof bars".    Gussets may be necessary to help dissapate the
           loads into surrounding structure.    Non-gusseted "bent tubes" are going to flex in tension, as an FEA analysis will reveal.

3/   Etc, etc, ad nauseum. . . . . . . .

4/   Any thought that a vehicle and its' structure could be made "strong enough" to reuse after any high speed, energy dissapating event, is probably unrealistic. . . . . . . . . .
      AND, anybody with a lick of "common sense" certainly would not be piloting it. . . . . . .

I definitely agree with Rex.    This is a very complex subject worthy of detailed discussion and analysis.

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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: roll cage
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2013, 12:24:28 AM »
Quote
I also happen not be a supporter of the SCTA flat gusset rule as it is presently written...

Rex

Which rule is that?
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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: roll cage
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2013, 10:43:10 AM »
Nathan, it is 3.B.1 the paragraph requiring a .125 thick, min 4 inches per side welded on the outside of the tube junction of the shoulder bars. Tube gussets are also now accepted. This is really a "band aid" that is applied in areas that can be and many times are, poorly designed tube joints. I think the original thinking started when a car that was a converted drag race car had the cage rip off when it got upside down. Obviously adding additional material and weld area does make this joint more resistant to being torn off of the main structure, and they have proven to be effective I just think the whole area could be improved.

Rex
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Offline Tman

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Re: roll cage
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2013, 11:13:46 AM »
Nathan, it is 3.B.1 the paragraph requiring a .125 thick, min 4 inches per side welded on the outside of the tube junction of the shoulder bars. Tube gussets are also now accepted. This is really a "band aid" that is applied in areas that can be and many times are, poorly designed tube joints. I think the original thinking started when a car that was a converted drag race car had the cage rip off when it got upside down. Obviously adding additional material and weld area does make this joint more resistant to being torn off of the main structure, and they have proven to be effective I just think the whole area could be improved.

Rex


That is one reason I ran my top helmets bars all the way down behind me to the lower frame. That way not everything is welded to the shoulder hoop only.

Offline floydjer

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Re: roll cage
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2013, 11:14:22 AM »
Rex..How would you improve the joint/gusset? Wrap around gussets maybe ?  Formed .125 plate welded to all sides seems like a better idea than a plate scabbed to the outside of a tube.
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Offline floydjer

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Re: roll cage
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2013, 01:00:55 PM »
Update.."Just for fun' I went out in the shop and bent up a 4 "  wrap around gusset in the shop press using a piece of bar stock for an upper die and my 5" drill press vise for a lower die. Piece of cake. :cheers:
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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: roll cage
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2013, 03:59:41 PM »
Yes I would think that a formed wrap around type of gusset would be the best approach, with the width of the gusset being equal to at least 75% of the tube width. This will insure that any loads imposed by the gusset on to the tubes that it is attached to will be on or close to the tube's outer walls which should distribute the load evenly over the greatest part of the tubes. Also, as I see it, the flat sheet gusset is very susceptible to failure by tearing in a tension load or by folding (bending) in a compression load. On a car that I did some work on a while back I made the gussets with rolled edge on the open side which greatly strengthen this edge of the gusset and it allowed me to also have more weld between the gusset and the tubes. I have attached a pic to show my approach.

Another thing that I see alot of is not designing a tube joint properly, i.e. the roll bar tubes are connected to the shoulder hoop but the tube(s) that is below is not in alignment with the roll bar tube so the load path is from the roll bar tubing into the shoulder hoop which is then in bending and then transmits the load to the lower tube, so you get the shoulder hoop wanting to form a S shaped bend when it fails. The addition of the gusset rule helps reduce this from happening. But if you do the design correctly you don't need a gusset.

Rex
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Offline Peckerwood

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Re: roll cage
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2013, 04:22:11 PM »
 

  Rex

 See, YouTube worlds fastest Camaro destroyed Texas Mile

 Cage looks to be intact,driver walked away.I would like to see before and after photos of cage.

 Examining a car put to the real test gives a lot of info.

                 J Y/B

   

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: roll cage
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2013, 07:12:58 PM »
Nice work as always Rex.

Like it say's at the front of the rule book, page 16, 1.Q paraprasing "additional safety equipmet or inhancments is not dicouraged"
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Offline Bob Drury

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Re: roll cage
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2013, 09:58:48 PM »
  Rex, I am not a structural engineer, nor do I wish to debate this issue, but basic geometry tells me that the rearmost hoop angle is a poor design unless it is triangulated with equal sized tubing from at least two thirds up from the base to a rear support structure (basically what I see is a parallelogram). If my (poor) eyesight hasn't completely failed me, I see no upper bracing to the rear hoop and if this is the case, that four inch gusset at the bottom doesn't mean much.
  If I am not seeing this clearly, I apologize, and do respect your opinions and analysis of all things "race car" over the years.
  p.s.  I built my cage with 1" round tubing 6" triangulated from EVERY intersection of my entire cage, and have had nothing but complements from tech workers for fifteen years.                Bob
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 10:08:16 PM by Bob Drury »
Bob Drury

Offline Peckerwood

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Re: roll cage
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2013, 11:50:06 PM »

  Bob Drury,

  Your vision is 20/20.

           J Y/B

Offline floydjer

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Re: roll cage
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2013, 08:29:33 AM »
The wrapped gusset would be a heck of alot more resistant to twisting forces also...Rex, Do you sleeve your verticle chassis tubes at the roll cage attachment points ?
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Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: roll cage
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2013, 10:35:09 AM »
Bob Drury
In the second picture, at the rear of the hoops, I see two support tubes (which are gusseted) to the top hoops and triangulated (which are also gusseted) at the bottom to the waist structure.

Ron
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Offline rouse

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Re: roll cage
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2013, 11:21:52 AM »
Putting double gussets or a bent bracket that forms a double gusset is probably a good idea for added strength, however, there are reasons I would only weld the longitudinal weld areas and leave the circumferential areas not welded.

One reason for example; when you make a circumferential weld in a hard corner, like that at the top and bottom outer ends of a gusset, you move the breaking point to that location. Without the circumferential welds, the joint is more likely to bend or deform as opposed to simply snapping into.

Some times more is in fact less.

Rouse
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