Test rule change case

[dwarner]

OK, you want input on the rules changes. Here is a test case.

I received a waiver request from a Bonneville racer at El Mirage looking to be able to run a blower driven by an electric motor in the blown classes.
The rules clearly state that a blower, roots type, turbo, etc., must be mechanically driven.

The board voted to deny the waiver. I intend to submit his request as a possible rule change at the fall meeting. I don't have the website here at work but, I will post an address later so that you may see the product.

Lets see how this process will work.

DW

[JackD]

I have to ask" Why is it not mechanically driven ?"
Because part of the power is derived from stored electrical energy it would be a Hy BRYD.
 The intent if mechanical or exhaust driven is to use power from the combustion process while under way.
 You don't supplement the internal combustion motor with a huge electric motor that is defined as a starter.
In the case of a gas powered cooling fan, it was added along with the primary engine to figure the total.
 It was a liner that allowed 2 engines.
 I know I would do it just to drive you nuts if I was the mischievous type.
 You know that is not me.
Best to wave bye bye to the rule change.
"Remember , competing with a "SHARPSHOOTER" can leave
 you behind with just a hole in your foot."  


OBTW: This is all free now because I have exceeded my days allotment of available points.
I may never get that sticker I had my heart set on.  

[landracing]

Dan,

Is it one of those high speed fan gadgets they call a blower???

I am anxious to see the website, and the viewers to comment on it.
Like a kid in a candy store.

Thanks dan, "Cant we all get along" will create positive results.

THANK YOU....

Jack no farting around to blow this for the rest of the viewers... This is the time for Landracing.com to let their comments be heard..

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU Dan...

Jon

[landracing]

Another thing to think about. If you go along with the way the rule states and you DO NOT allow it. Then is it therfore legal in a unblown class?

If it creates boost, it should be allowed. Very interested in seeing the website for this product...

Jon

[JackD]

I skipped to the obvious solution I thought we already had and skipped the lengthy process.
I kinda always thought that positive displacement was blown and NA sucked.
Did I spell HYBRID wrong again ?
I will go to the back of the line.

[Sumner]

Dan thanks for hanging in there and giving us an example.

I have a thought on this situation, but not the process.

I wouldn't see anything wrong with driving a blower with an electric motor as long as the current for the electric motor was being supplied by the combustion motor while it was "running" and not from "stored" energy.

c ya, Sum

[JackD]

An Electric Drive coupling it quite different than than the use of stored energy that replaces or supplements power from the drive motor.
Understanding the application and applying it to the rule you already have would be the simple thing.

[landracing]

Well you know what, when I did Landracing.com and started the site in about 1998. I envisioned a one stop place for alot of things LSR related. I think I have done a pretty good job, maybe not the best at spelling or writing but most can work thru that.

In the last couple of years I asked myself a question as I was considering shutting the site down. What do I want the site to accomplish, what information do I want to promote and where do I see it in the future, and how is it going to fund itself?

These are all good questions, because as SCTA Volunteers, I volunteer just as much time as they do. This site is a 24 hour a day, 365 days a year committment. I am on the site doing this and that EVERYDAY. There is rarely an occasion I can think of a couple days this year that I have not done something on the site.

One main thing I wanted the site to do is for myself and the viewers is to have your voices be heard. There is a major portion of BNI members who do not goto the meetings, and who do not have a clue because information was limited, on what is going on. I have spent alot of time trying to make this happen and with failed promises from the "Past" bike guys that we could discuss rule changes, if they went our way or not, the basic thing here is YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO COMMENT. Dan has posted a possible rule change that YOU AS A VIEWER can comment on, and Dan is willing to listen... THis opportunity that Dan has given is one of the major things I wanted to the website to accomplish. Years of crying on the site that "we dont have a say" now you do. Just remember it may not go your way, or it may, can't keep everybody happy. But make your comments, back then up with facts, keep an open mind. DONT get into a pissing contest and ask the right questions and this can turn out good.

IF it fails, the opportunity Dan has given the site, then the site will no longer exsist, because I dont think we would get a second chance.  I think I have reached a milestone now its up to you to provide some good information.

The site continues to grow, new members sign up weekly, and my wife keeps on funding the site Along with the site sponsors who most are LSR racers themselves. Thank you sponsors..

Jon

[Sumner]

Well you know what, when I did Landracing.com and started the site in about 1998. I envisioned a one stop place for alot of things LSR related. I think I have done a pretty good job, maybe not the best at spelling or writing but most can work thru that...............The site continues to grow, new members sign up weekly, and my wife keeps on funding the site Along with the site sponsors who most are LSR racers themselves. Thank you sponsors..

Jon

Well said Jon and you have done a great job in putting this site up and more importantly keeping it up.  I know how much time I put into my site and with it I can add things when I get the chance.  A site like this requires daily attention and can tend to burn someone out especially when people abuse it (which I don't think has happened much here compared to some other sites I visit).

People tend to think information and such is free on the internet and should stay that way.  It just isn't so.  I spend about $250 a year to keep my site on with only a little store related revenue to help support it.  With the traffic you get here I'm sure that number is much higher and that doesn't account for paying you anything for you and your wife's time.

Guys if you spend time on this site I hope you are supporting it with a contribution.  I try to send a check every year, not as much as I would like, but equivalent to what a good magazine subscription would cost and worth way more than any magazine I could subscribe to.

c ya, and didn't mean to distract from your thread Dan,

Sum

[Glen]

There is also a jar at the bend in the road gathering each year we can add to as well. Every thing helps. I was an early member of this web site and monitor it several times a day. It has opened many doors and made an unknown number of new friendships over the few short few years it's been on. Even Keith has picked up a couple of friends other then hitch hikers going to the salt. All and All this is the LSR site and it does well and we need to thank Jon and his wife when we see them.

At the North West LSR banquet we gave Jon an award for his support to all of LSR where ever he can report on it. His many photos and articles at speed week are posted daily for those who can't attend. All most like being there.

Jon, Thanks for all you do.
Glen

[landracing]

Right now its not about the donations... Its about where the site is today that will make a difference (possibly) in the future (that we might actually get to discuss rule changes requests) before they happen.

Its about Dan giving us a chance to give information. So when he makes a rules change request, he should be well informed.. So I hope those who ever made the comment I dont have a say, or we dont get to vote, or any of that come and address the information dan has given us.

jon

[Dynoroom]

OK, you want input on the rules changes. Here is a test case.

I received a waiver request from a Bonneville racer at El Mirage looking to be able to run a blower driven by an electric motor in the blown classes.
The rules clearly state that a blower, roots type, turbo, etc., must be mechanically driven.

The board voted to deny the waiver. I intend to submit his request as a possible rule change at the fall meeting. I don't have the website here at work but, I will post an address later so that you may see the product.

Lets see how this process will work.

DW

I see this as a sportsmanship issue, the intent of the rule is to allow engines to run superchargers. It was meant to keep other engines from being used to run a supercharger & feeding the main powerplant. If you want to run "staged" turbos or multi-blowers go ahead. As far as I'm concerned I have no problem running against an electric blower at this time...but what happens in the future? Say this new battery comes along and lets this unit run at 30 lbs. boost, now it's eating my lunch...and I think it should be run by the main engine unit. This is why you don't want to mess with the base rules unless you need to, not just want to.
Also, if this system is being used to augment a N/A engine I definitely feel it's not in the spirit of the rules. Just like when Smokey ran fan blades on his flywheel and ran the "boosted" air to the carburetor. It wasn't illegal by the book but it got canned anyway.

[Bob Jr.]

. Just like when Smokey ran fan blades on his flywheel and ran the "boosted" air to the carburetor. It wasn't illegal by the book but it got canned anyway.[/quote]

Dyno?

DO you have any pictures of smokey's setup?  I want to try that on the 4 piece modified roadster    

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Okay, somebody call in an English teacher to define "mechanically driven".  Or entertain a change in the wording of the rule to better define what is meant by "mechanically driven".  I re-read Rule 4.FF and it says "...mechanically driven...by the primary engine."

An electric motor is a machine, so an electric fan is mechanically driven.  That fits the rules actual wording.  If the rule intends to require a blower that is driven by direct connection to power generated by the motor -- a belt, a shaft, a gear -- then state it that way.  Of course this interpretation could be subverted by claiming that the electric motor is driven by electricity generated by the alternator which is turned by the engine, though, so now you'll need to assure that there is no electrical storage device on/in the vehicle.  Inspectors:  NO BATTERY ALLOWED in this car.

How about adding a few words to the rule if you want to preclude electric blowers?  Maybe:  "It is forbidden to use any electric blower to avoid the application of these rules".   (I took that from elsewhere in the rulebook and changed "transparent material" to "electric blower").  If you don't make it crystal clear, somebody will try to find a better lawyer.

The rule, as written and printed, seems to allow an electrically-driven blower.  Maybe it wasn't intended to do so, but that's what it does say.  There's my comment, Dan and all.  Thanks  for giving me the opportunity to offer it.

[JackD]

I put a 50cc gasser motor linked to the drive line of a former electric stream liner and use the existing on board system to start the motor and other stuff like the radio.
I might have a 200  mph 50cc unblown gas liner.
Stored energy for the purpose of operating the vehicle determines it's classification under the rules you already have.
A HYBRID  has a place in the future but not on top of the Purebred types.