Gas Coupe Gussets

[FoundSoul]

I have two questions concerning gussets-- 1) do I need the tube gusset described below and is that a good way to gusset this junction  2) do I have enough gusseting overall?

Trying to figure out the best way to gusset the shoulder bar to the main hoop here behind the drivers seat.  The plate type gussets won't fit with the seat belts being wrapped around the shoulder bar, as at a minimum they would provide a cut point if the belts would fit at all on the one side (behind the left shoulder, right side of this pic).

I'm thinking a tube gusset on the top side of the shoulder bar, from where it's marked 'neck' which will be in between the belts, up diagonally to the right into the main hoop where it ties into the body.  Trying to ensure that will work now with the SCTA/ECTA officials.

Something like this:






Any where is says 'Gusset' without a question mark is pointing out an existing 1/8" plate gusset as per the rulebook.  The white diagonal bar (marked Gusset??? in one pic) is where I'm considering putting a tube gusset, same size tube as the cage probably which is 1.75" diameter .120" wall DOM tubing.

Need to determine for sure that meets the rules, and that I've got adequate gusseting throughout.  If I put that tube gusset there, along with the other gusseting that's in place, do I have enough gusseting in the entire cage?

[NathanStewart]

the point of a gusset is to strengthen a joint or "tube network" through triangulation.  the tube network in question is you "main hoop".  isn't your main hoop already triangulated with the diagonal that goes from the top of the main hoop down to the "shoulder bar" (the bar that runs behind the seat where your shoulder belts would mount) and the diagonal rear support bar that goes from the top of the main hoop down to the back of the car?  both those bars are already effectively doing what your proposed gusset would do plus they're doing it better because they support the main hoop higher up than you gusset would. 

don't get me wrong... you can add in as many gussets as you want but look at what the object of the rule is and try to satisfy that need versus just trying to meet the letter of the rule. 

[FoundSoul]

Thanks Nathan-- that's commonly my struggle- if I can build to the 'object' of the rule, which is a safe car, that's very helpful.  I'm always afraid I'm going to spend a ton of money to get out there though and then find I missed a small 'letter of the law' rule that could keep me from racing.  I don't have anything but this rulebook, so when it says I need a gusset, I'm thinking I better put one there whether the cage technically 'needs' it or not.

We've tried hard to overbuild this cage, and I can post more pics if you'd like-- I think we've succeeded in doing that.  It's 1.75" diameter .120" wall tubing and a LOT of it, with a partial funny car style 'cage within a cage' around me.  I'm not a small guy, and it is a small car, and I'm also using a full containment seat, so it doesn't have a full funny car style cage around me, but it's definitely built tough.

My goal was to have it overthought-out and overbuilt to the point that it hopefully makes tech a breeze . 

[Dynoroom]

Another thing that helps the first time LSR racer is to go to the SCTA website and down load the tech inspection form. This is what the inspectors will be using to check your vehicle. The rule book is important but the inspection sheet will show you how the process will go down through the inspection line.

And remember...

Have Fun!

[dw230]

Couldn't wait for the tech guys I pointed you to Jerry?

Just remember that this webpage is not official when it comes to tech specific questions.

DW

[FoundSoul]

This was posted before (or about the same time) I sent you that first email Dan...  thanks for your help via email.  My hope was once I have the answers I can update this thread for others to benefit from.  Thanks for your help!

[dw230]

OK

[tauruck]

I don't know anything about the rules but those are the nicest welds I've seen in a long time. That is art.

[NathanStewart]

Thanks Nathan-- that's commonly my struggle- if I can build to the 'object' of the rule, which is a safe car, that's very helpful.  I'm always afraid I'm going to spend a ton of money to get out there though and then find I missed a small 'letter of the law' rule that could keep me from racing.  I don't have anything but this rulebook, so when it says I need a gusset, I'm thinking I better put one there whether the cage technically 'needs' it or not.

We've tried hard to overbuild this cage, and I can post more pics if you'd like-- I think we've succeeded in doing that.  It's 1.75" diameter .120" wall tubing and a LOT of it, with a partial funny car style 'cage within a cage' around me.  I'm not a small guy, and it is a small car, and I'm also using a full containment seat, so it doesn't have a full funny car style cage around me, but it's definitely built tough.

My goal was to have it overthought-out and overbuilt to the point that it hopefully makes tech a breeze . 

your cage looks over built so far.  what kind of car is it, what motor and fuel do you plan on running and how fast do you plan on going?  one concern i have is that your main hoop seems quite a bit away from the inside of the body shell.  i mention this because your body must be completely inside the outer plane of the cage so having it be many inches away from the inside of the body shell may mean that you're giving up inches of your own room.  you say you're not small guy.  does that mean you're tall or 'wide' or both?  either way, make sure that when you're seated and fully equipped with a fire suit, helmet and hans that no part of you sticks out beyond the cage.  no arm or shoulder sticking out over that diagonal door bar. 

while this site may not be 'official', i am an official inspector and i am one of the new car inspectors so there's a good chance that we'll meet up in tech at some point.  my suggestion is that i shouldn't be the first set of eyes to have ever seen your cage when you show up on the salt.  definitely at least contact kiwi steve as he's the head tech and maybe even lee kennedy as he's the tech chair.  keep in mind though that contact with either of them does not in any way 'pre-approve' your cage.  i had a gent come through tech one time and as i started checking out his cage he tells me oh i'm good to go, i've been emailing pictures to kiwi steve.  pictures won't ever replace having a car in front of you to inspect with your own two eyes so while pictures and communication are good, you're still subject to a full inspection once getting on the salt but you'll fair much better if the head dudes have at least seen your cage design and been given the opportunity to suggest changes if necessary. 

think about your belt placement while you're at this stage of the cage build.  remember that for many years before these hans devices became a requirement that the shoulder belt came up and over the shoulder and mounted at a point below the top of the shoulder.  most hans systems require that the shoulder belts now be mounted more behind the shoulders at nearly the same height as the top of the shoulders and not down below the shoulders like was required years ago.  make sure your lap belts are mounted such that the hardware is pulled in tension and not in shear and at the correct angle.  make sure your belts have an unobstructed 'pull' over your body and that the seat doesn't get in the way.  the belts must pull on your body and not on the seat or the openings in the seat to allow the belts to pass through.  i'd highly suggest a 7 point belt system or even a 9 point belt system which are my new fav btw.  don't forget to place all your controls (ignition, fire ext, chute, etc) in a centralized location that's near the steering wheel so you can keep your limb restraints short.  don't put your chute release hanging from the top of the cage out of your view so you have to hunt for it with your arm fully extended out to the other side of the car to find it.  also don't bury it next to your seat where you can't see it or feel for it with your -20 gloves on.  put it where you can see it and get to it easily.

ugh sorry for the rambling.  it's late and i can't sleep so pardon any misspellings or general bad grammar.  hope this helps.

[dw230]

Jerry,

Nathan is OK for an answer on this subject. As he mentioned he will be one of the new car tech guys with plenty of experience.

DW

[FoundSoul]

Thanks Nathan, and DW, and Kiwi Steve, who have all helped me answer this question.  I'll post Steve's response in a moment...

But while we're on the pre-inspection topic-- Nathan-- is there anyone you know of in the Southeast US you could recommend?  Have trailer, will travel...   I'm in the Atlanta, GA area.

[FoundSoul]

As Dan mentioned I started an email thread about the same time I started this post as I know in the past the forums here aren't considered authoritative and direct contact is preferred for such questions.  I often post here in case it's a well known issue others have dealt with and can help me answer quickly, but it seems I tend to ask questions that don't have easy answers sometimes...

Several were on the email thread-  Dan asked 'Kiwi' Steve to reply, and here's what he shared:

Jerry and all, the rules say the gussets (at minimum) need to be at the intersections of any tube attached to the shoulder rail, this refers to a lakester or roadster type construction, you will need to have gussets in the roof intersection points at minimum, any more you add will be exceeding our minimum standards, which we like.
As for the belts, make sure you follow the manufacturers instructions for the belts as well as the head and neck restraint, they have strict angles they need to work, and use the scta diagrams as well, you must use either a 5point or 7 point belt system to comply with our rules. There are a few 6 point (double crotch strap) belts that will work also. I think what Dan was saying is that sometimes its hard to get the correct angles with wrap around belts, I can't emphasize enough how important it is to pay attention to the directions of the manufacturers.
Stay in touch, see you on the salt.
Steve.

So I think I'm pretty clear here, I'm checking with my fab guy, as I'm not 100% sure if I understand that. 

I just sent Steve and email asking "would the 'roof intersection points' mean all of the points that attach any roof bars (in the horizontal plane above the driver) to the main hoop?  I know he (fab guy) has gussets on the shoulder bars and door bars as seen in the pics above, but I don't think he does on the roof bars if I'm interpreting that correctly."

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Joe Timney is in Delaware, which isn't right next door, but is plenty closer than going to Californica.  For that matter, while Joe is an SCTA inspector (sorta - might not be current right now) -- Keith Turk is in Enterprise, Alabama, and isn't an inspector for SCTA -- but sure is for ECTA (as is Joe, the two of them being the two male head honchos for the ECTA).  They might not be able to give you absolute 100% guarantees that your stuff will pass SCTA -- but they can sure get you moving in the right direction so you don't get surprised when you do go out west.  Notice, by the way, that I mentioned that they're boys.  The REAL honchos are Tonya Turk and Donna Timney.  And I assure you -- Joe and Keith know it well .

[FoundSoul]

I don't know anything about the rules but those are the nicest welds I've seen in a long time. That is art.

Chad at Fat Cat Fabrication is a welding stud.  Send him lots of work, just wait until he's done with my car first . 

[FoundSoul]

I don't know anything about the rules but those are the nicest welds I've seen in a long time. That is art.

Chad at Fat Cat Fabrication is a welding stud.  Send him lots of work, just wait until he's done with my car first . 

Thanks-- Keith and I had discussed it but I know he's busy and we haven't been able to connect yet.  I'll check with him again and see if I can tug my car down there, that's likely the closest bet.