El Mirage Protest Upheld

[landracing]

The SCTA meeting minutes stated the following...

This pertains to the May El Mirage meet.

"Dan Warner had a protest against an Infinti G35 that ran in GT class instead of Coupe and Sedan.  Dan gave the back ground on the situation.  In 2003 the entrant started an e-mail correspondence with the Coupe and Sedan committee and was told to enter in GT.  Dan said that Bobby Sykes had not seen pictures of the car and had thought that it was a 350Z vehicle.  Bobby apologized for the mix up.  The owner is from Colorado and wants to run at Bonneville.  Dan has the protest money.  The entrant will not receive any points for the meet if the protest is upheld, discussion.  Mike Waters made a motion that the protest be upheld, Jim Dunn seconded.  Motion carried."

That must have been a tough decision since that entrant before building the car sent in pictures and brochers and was TOLD he had to be in a GT class.... Not only that, but it was stated the reason why it took so long to get back to him on an initial answer as to where the car belonged was they went to a dealership to look at one....

So this entrant, sent in pictures, brochers and people went and looked at one at the dealership and verified and told him he had to be in a GT class. So he built it for GT, then was protested and upheld.... So it does belong in a Sedan and coupe class.

To this day, he has not officially been contacted to hear the outcome of the protest...

What gives....  When he went thru tech inspection not a word about it being in the wrong class....

Jon

[landracing]

Curious as to the entries who ran E/GT during el mirage and speeds during the May meet.

This is a 172.943 record in the class..

E-GT   Steve's Machine -  Milers -  Peter Shotrosky  - 135.930
E-GT   6X11 in Pursuit - Gear Grinders -  Royce Branch -  121.899
E-GT   Larry Detrich  - Gear Grinders - Larry Detrich - 172.223

Jon

[1212FBGS]

how fast did the protested entry go?

[racin jason]

172.2 on a 172.9 record. looks like a indy(irl) engine in it.

[JackD]

1. Why was the protest not acted on at the meet ?
2. Who certified the engine and body ?
3. Who cheated who ?
4. He didn't use S+S cases did he ?

As you might expect there will be more questions and some will be based on the answers to these.
We shall see.

[joea]

what a sham....................

he sent in all documentation asked for...........

and waited a long period for the committee
to "look into it"..........and was told a story about
how it took so long because they had to go to
dealer to check it out....................

THEN he builds the car and brings it and is ok
thru tech...........LEGAL................

UNTIL HE GOES FASTER THAN THE TWO SO CAL ENTRIES...............

then is protested............and then the "long period" verification
process is replaced with............Oh we thought it was
a different model......................sorry............


that stinks..............

jon calls the guy who was protested..........and he
says............"how do you know anything about this.....
when was it decided that my car which was legal
at the event is now deemed illegal..........."

if he is forced to be legal in a class in which he will break
more records........will he then be protested out of that class..........

poor old Larry wasnt told to stay in arms reach of the
other entries speeds........

just talking out loud here...........

somebody set me straight.........

Dan.......?

Joe

[JackD]

that like the Noonan deal their is a required 3 month cussing and discussing period for a protest and this only happened on May 19th and the meet was the 6th and 7th.
You can't expect the Board to notify him when he is represented by a Club can you ?
It is better for the surprise to wait for Bonneville.
They are doing their best and he is from Colorado anyway.
Did I read that right ?

[dwarner]

1. There is by written procedure that the Board has 30 days from the protest filing to respond. The decision was done well within the 30 day period.

2. There was no certification of the engine and body because no record was set. The tech inspection is for safety only. It is the entrant's responsibility to enter the correct class. If the guy was given wrong info as to what class to enter that is an issue that needs to be addressed.

3. Who cheated who is a question you will have to decide for yourself, opinions vary.

4. No

5. Why ask an internet message board to answer questions when most don't know the problem. Go to the source, president@scta-bni.org.

6. The only reason I can see to ask this question in the format it was done is to focus negative energy towards the SCTA-BNI, a group of volunteers who try their best to give you a place to run your race vehicles. If there are problems then become a part of the solution not the problem.

I have yet to see a comprehensive set of rules drafted to correct all the motorcylce isssues brought up on this board. Iis that more difficult than just bitching in the same church with like believers?

I'm going to sit with JD,

DW out

[landracing]

Dan,

Not negative energy just frustration.

For one I did ask to be part of the solution on the motorcycle side by wanting to help with the motorcycle committee's. Russ ODaley declined the offer.

I have emailed the Motorcycle Committee Chair Russ Odaly 3 specific emails of certain topics but I have yet to receive a response on any of those emails, those were sent on May 11th.. Other members are also haveing problems getting questions answered from the Russ. This is a problem. One member contacted him in march and still has no response from him on S&S cases deal.

Proper Authorities have been contacted on that matter....

Jon

Dan, you got to realize how frustrating that must be for an entrant also we also spends is volunteer time building a vehicle to race at a volunteer event. I am just thinking this could have been far worse if it had happened at Bonneville. So first beer is on me at the salt...

[tomsmith]

The SCTA/BNI may be well meaning, but small groups tend to grow inwards all too often without even realizing it.  From the messages, it looks like maybe a small town or Aruba approach to doing business.  Hopefully they will decide to let members in on the decisions by notifying everyone about what is going on, accept inputs, and somehow let all the members have an active voice rather than treating them like the mushroom people.  Who decides who is on or off the committees anyways? Just their buddies?  The membership ought to vote them in or out.  Of course, it's easy for me to say since I'm not a member.

[jimmy six]

I have the priviage of working with Dan on the corrections to the rule book and in impounds. I do not see all the cars during inspection but when they come under the canopy for a record certification both body and engine I get involved.
As Dan said during the technical safety inspection we ASSUME the car has been properly placed in the correct class. Some inspectors ask some do not...It's not their job.
I understand that Larry had done everything he needed to do to properly class his choosen vehicle, However when in came into impounds questions do arrise. I'm the one looking under roadsters and coupes. looking at body widths, etc. looking for inconsistancies.
Eventho Larry car did not set a record, it is under the impounds tent and that's where I am, so I look.
The first question I had when looking at this Infinity is why is such a large car in GT. I open the book and read that  "This catagory does not include cars with rear seats suitable for continued adult occpancy". I look at the the 2003 Honda Civic coupe I drove to the lake bed, it fits 4 adults maybe not comfotably but they do fit, and see it to be about 2/3's the size of the interior of the Infinity.  
Sine we are not certing this car I just listen and make my own opinion.
Discussions were about the what the Committeee had done. still OK with me, maybe they knew something I did not know. Dan has stated one of the major reasons for classifications is the manufacturers advertising for the said vehicle.
I heard about the protest, accepted something would be done, and would learn of it at the SCTA meeting.....But in the meantime I looked up the car on the internet. read about it's pros and con, along with it's rear seat capacity...Right on the net owners stated the rear was big enough for 4 and had taken trips with 4 in the car. Others didn't see it that way but to me at least I had some pertinant information.
I could, at that time see, why the protestor thought it was in the wrong class and would agree with him.
As I have state many times I do not vote on any SCTA motions. I never said anything at the meeting eventho I had the printed info off the net. I feel the SCTA Board not only upheld the rule as written but also the "spirit" of the rules this time.

I take all protests and the right to making those protests seriously. To put your name and money on the chopping block and then you being the BAD GUY is unfair.  I've watched many do it and I like the ability for one of our competitors to have this option.....Just my $.02...J.D.

[JohnR]

What do you suggest the board should have done?

Here are the facts presented at the meeting:
1. The car is a Infinity G35. It has a back seat suitable for adults.
2. It ran in the GT class
3. An entrant protested the car, said it is NOT a GT car.
4. The protesting entrant paid $100 and will lose it if the protest is denied
5. The car left the starting line as a GT car
6. SCTA Rules very clearly state that once a car has left the starting line it cannot be reclassified.
7. SCTA Tech inspection is a safety tech only not a class verification.

You can only come to the conclusion that the protest is valid and the protestant should get to keep his 100 dollars because the car should not have run in the GT class.

What I ASSume made this mistake happen is that the Infinity G35 is based on the Nissan 350Z. From the outside, without putting them side by side, you would think they are identical except for trim but you would be wrong. The G35 is longer and it was stretched specifically to add a usable back seat. I dont know if they went and looked at a 350Z and assumed it was the same or whatever but what is done is done. Making the problem worse is not the answer. All you can do is apologize and move on. After all, no record was set so no record was taken away. All that was lost was points and I dont think (again, I am ASSuming) that the entrant is running for the El Mirage championship so all that was lost is line position.

Of course, there are those that will use this, and everything else they see as indications of a conspiracy, but that broken record will just keep on spinning so I don't worry about it.

Like Dan said, you can be part of the problem or part of the solution. Unfortunately, seems like all I see anymore around here is the former.

J.D., Dan, save a seat for me...

[landracing]

JD,

Very well written and good information on the subject. Thank You.

Jon

[landracing]

JohnR,

Yours too was very well written and easily explained and brings light to the situation as well as JD's post.

This is not negative on the SCTA.. I guess you could call it a learning procedure..

This brings information out in the public and lets people know, ask more questions, why is it, or why isn't it. Now when someone goes to the committee, it will be looked at more for future cars. Less mistakes happen when one is already made. People are more aware...

And you all are right, what is done is done....

IM all good with that... BUT I think a phone call should have been made to the entrant letting him know the outcome of the situation. And explained to him why...

Im new to this internet stuff so I will try to find a way to suggest in future that a courtesy call be made within a period after decision...

Thanks to Dan, JD and JohnR for the information...

Jon

[KeithTurk]

I'm going to surprise some with my opinion here... or not...who knows..

The deal is when you submit an entry to the committee for a particular class and they evaluate it... your often getting " one mans opinion " or "interpetation of the rules" as deemed correct by that individual who may or may not have the absolute answer... but when you gather that whole collective group together at an event... that technical committee members opinion may be disputed... as was the case here...  The Tech guy did his best to determine the correct class...  later that was disputed and even protested...  fair enough...  They decided that his opinion ( even thou he may have consulted others at the time)  wasn't going to work on a long term basis and they had to adjust or correct the situation before it snowballed into a mass of defication.

Guys, writting and following rules is a real bitch kitty... everyone is trying to find a way around them and your trying to make them air tight... which is impossible when you have a group of folks as bright as these racers are....  The guy on the committee did his best... it's been determined that the class was wrong.... geez I hate that...  what can we do for the racer to make it up?  is there anything that can be done that doesn't effect others in this class?  if so DO IT... if not... well there you go,  damn the shame of it all... but honest folks make honest mistakes all the time... thats life... ( I want to write "get over it" really bad here )...  

End of the day... remember EVERYONE here is doing this because we aren't smart enough to do something else with our time and we consider this FUN???   LOL...  try and keep it fun... for the racer with a passion and the tech guys with compassion for the racer as well....

Trust me I've been on both sides of this fence... and I always try my best to keep the big picture in mind...  what's best for the organization and whats best for the racer...

Y'all have a great day... I'm going to finish a taper on a gear shifter that's been a blast...

Keith Turk