Author Topic: Please explain this....  (Read 10017 times)

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Offline sabat

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2013, 07:43:03 AM »
Thanks for great posts JimL :)

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2013, 10:20:04 AM »

OK I googled....., quite the boy old McCahill !

http://www.joesherlock.com/Tom-McCahill.html

Thanks for the link. It brought back a lot of good memories. It was always tough waiting for the latest issue of Mechanix Illustrated and Uncle Tom's content was always the first place I headed.

Pete

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2013, 10:36:00 AM »
JH,

Complex subject and I am by no means an EFI/ECU expert.   I'm still a slow & crappy typist so I added comments to your post.   Sorry. . .
I am only responding to questions where I am certain of the answer/effect.    It looks to me like JimL has more insight & experience with road going stuff equipted with Cats.   And he is right on about mfg's counting pennies on cats & warranties.   Have you checked the price of platinum lately?

I have seen many 'internet experts' say that removing the cats can lower HP on an OEM vehicle. I have also seen a lot of post where people say you will loose all of your low end torque by going too large in exhaust after the headers.   On any engine, it is the complete exhaust system that the engine "sees".   Larger pipe diameters, with their larger volume, will slow gas speeds and alter the timing of any exhaust pulses/reflected waves.   Diameter is not the only factor, pipe length affects pulse/wave timing as well.   If the result is different from what the ECU/sensors expect, this will be a problem.    Many ECU's are mapped/programmed with certain values/parameters, and when the sensor values are out of a specific range, the ECU goes:  Oh Crap!! better shut it down to save (warranty) costs. . . . .     Sometimes there are ways around this, sometimes not.      

Is this true? Would this also apply to an OEM vehicle with aftermarket SC?

-I am asking because I have a vehicle that sees some track use, is supercharged (aftermarket) and 2 SETS of cats (4 total) from the factory.
-The ECU is locked and no way of AFR tuning, the ECU is reprogrammed to accommodate the SC. 
-My cats are shot and need to be replaced or punched. <NOTE* an aftermarket O2 load device is made that allows removal of the cats for off road use.

What is the best option??? Blow the cats out and run the O2 sims? Get 'high flow' cats (always thought they were snake oil)? I dont want to hear any 'federal smog blah', I know.

~JH

Hope this limited answer was of some value to you.
 :cheers:
Fordboy
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2013, 10:50:40 AM »
Slim,

I'm going to repeat most of my comments to JH above.
Complex subject and I am by no means an EFI/ECU expert.   I'm still a slow & crappy typist so I added comments to your post.   Sorry. . .
I am only responding to questions where I am certain of the answer/effect.    It looks to me like JimL has more insight & experience with road going stuff equipted with Cats.   And he is right on about mfg's counting pennies on cats & warranties.   Have you checked the price of platinum lately?

JH, do you mind if I tag along and ask another "Please explain this" question?  Tell me to scram and start my own if you want to do so, but my query is sorta like yours, having to do with the exhaust system.

Oh, forgive my ignorance, one and all -- but why am I told that removing the muffler or such from my Duramax turbo diesel engine will affect performance/economy adversely?  I'm told that the turbo needs (repeat NEEDS) some back pressure to work right.  Why is that?  Thanks.  It's all about how the ECU is programmed.    If the result is different from what the ECU/sensors expect, this will be a problem.    Many ECU's are mapped/programmed with certain values/parameters, and when the sensor values are out of a specific range, the ECU goes:  Oh Crap!! better shut it down to save (warranty) costs. . . . .     Sometimes there are ways around this, sometimes not.    I removed the muffler from my '04 Duramax with no ill effects - and got good mileage with it, too.  Is this another federal smog/county noise rule, too?  Probably.  Smog regs for diesels have been changing rapidly since 2000.

Hope this limited answer was of some value to you.
 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2013, 11:36:46 AM »
The vehicle in question is a 5.7 Toyota Tundra with the 'Toyota TRD Supercharger' <(Magnuson e90 screw and intercooled). There is no question if it makes HP, the truck has run 11's in the 1/4 and has a 0-60 time that will embarrass most high performance sports cars.

The ECU has a Toyota reflash using their techstream. This system is so integrated with engine (fly by wire), transmission, brake and a billion other elements that if you disconnect or modify anything in the chain it throws code and tells you that you are a jerk.

-Toyota is so clever about this stuff they have safeguards in the programming that KNOWS if you TRY to 'put a resistor' or some other work around in the system to fool the ECU. It also has work arounds so if you put a better intake on it thinking you will make more HP, the ecu compensates to 'fix the improvement'. <it really is quite amazing how careful Toyota was about keeping people out.

This being said, the PROBLEM is that it runs pig rich with no way of tuning to lower the afr. A number of people with the SC melt cats ESPECIALLY if they get some bad gas; I would not doubt this in my case also as I use 'cardlock PacPride' commercial fueling premium. This same gas made a thick layer of tar on the backside of my Busas valves.  


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Some options I have:

-Punch all 4 cats and use the simulator

 http://urdusa.com/Electronics-Rear-Sensor-Simulator/c66_170/p1260518903/URD-Rear-O2-Simulator,-3UR-FE-5.7L-V8-Dual-Channel/product_info.html

-Remove the front set of cats and keep the back (*I suspect its the front cats that are shot) and use the SIM
-Replace the shot cats with some Summit 'high flow' units.


I dont hate the idea of having cats if they are not going to melt on me again.....and.....I dont know if anyone has priced NEW cats from TOYOTA lately!!!!!! I can assure you it aint pretty!!!!!

Thanks for helping me understand and dealing with this problem.

~JH





 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 11:38:36 AM by Jonny Hotnuts »
jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

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Offline JimL

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2013, 12:04:01 PM »
Lucky for me, the 5.7 kit was after my time and that keeps me from giving you bad advice.  The first "cat simulator" I messed with was one I helped work up for a batch of "un-named vehicle model" that had to be fitted with blowers, while running on "un-named gasoline" in a sandy part of the world so the "un-named branch of military" dependants could be driven in town without drawing attention.  Blowers help haul the weight of lots of kevlar and thick lexan.

The method works, obviously, though I layed awake nights hoping my jury rig did not leave someone broke down in a really bad neighborhood.  Ancient history now and truly thankful the phone never rang.

JH, your stuff is a generation beyond where I ever got to. :|
Jim


Offline LandSpeed-DSM

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2013, 03:01:30 PM »
JH, do you mind if I tag along and ask another "Please explain this" question?  Tell me to scram and start my own if you want to do so, but my query is sorta like yours, having to do with the exhaust system.

Oh, forgive my ignorance, one and all -- but why am I told that removing the muffler or such from my Duramax turbo diesel engine will affect performance/economy adversely?  I'm told that the turbo needs (repeat NEEDS) some back pressure to work right.  Why is that?  Thanks.  I removed the muffler from my '04 Duramax with no ill effects - and got good mileage with it, too.  Is this another federal smog/county noise rule, too?

Both performance and economy, the latter depending on operator habits more than anything, should improve with less pressure downstream of the turbine.

Here's why:
Any post-turbine back pressure is multiplied by the turbine expansion ratio and is added to the pre-turbine drive pressure used to power the compressor wheel.

Less post-turbine back pressure means faster spool, means less fuel is required to be burned to put heat into the exhaust stream to light the turbo. Spooling sooner also provides more torque earlier and results in less power expended over the duration of the acceleration event.

Should also reduce EGT and produce emissions.

Less backpressure, resulting in lower drive pressure will improve VE as well. Providing a more favorable Boost:Drive ratio, allowing for better cylinder filling and evacuation, as well as more valve overlap.

As far as that "needs backpressure" myth pertaining to NA motors as well, its false there too for the most part.

What you need is charge face velocity and pulses timed in a manner that the leading pulse has a trailing low-pressure zone and you want to use that lower pressure zone to draw the next pulse in sequence out.

This is usually tuned to be RPM specific, harmonics also come into play. This is where debates on intake runner length usually wind up as well. Somewhere around .5-.6 mach (which is temperature dependent) is thrown around as the sweet spot for charge face velocity, before turbulence/choke becomes an issue.
Chris

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Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2013, 01:45:03 AM »


would you believe this is what was all that was left of the front left cat!!!!
Missing about 80% of its original mass, I just needed to turn it on end and dump it out, no need to break up the material to get it out.
Also note how all the edges are rounded....this is because the chunks were rattling around for a LONG time and now look like driftwood!

The cat down stream was nearly 100% clogged with the remanance from the front cat.

-needless to say its running better, just from doing the left bank (so far) and while sitting on a ECU code because my AFR is not reading correctly.

I would of NEVER expected to see the inside of a cat to look like this; its been a real learning experience.

~JH
jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline JimL

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2013, 03:09:28 AM »
Ok JH.  What you see is the result of cat temps that exceeded melt point for the slurry bond which is lining the shell.  That means internal cat temp was well over 1850-2000 F for some period of time.  I dont know if this is alumina-silicate bond, but it looks like it.  Anyway, cat temps this high need some late burn from the cylinders, along with enough oxygen to hover around that 15:1 a/f for some time.

Gasoline problems can cause the knock sensor signal to pull timing pretty far back (I used to have printout from a supercharged 3.4 v6 that showed short periods of 50 degrees atdc!). On occasion, I would pull fuel samples from a customer complaint vehicle and then have them tested by a Federal Referee Station.  Those are the folks who test and certify the really important fuels, like aviation stuff.  I have seen Contaminated gasoline with 90% distillation temps approaching 400 f.  I think diesel is about 440 f at 90%.  This leads to high knk signal, which retards timing and throws fuel at it, along with a very long burn event at higher rpm.  To put this in perspective, I run the ERC with lowest 90% distillation temp at Bonneville because I rev high, have over 14.5:1 compression, and dont like too much advance (which can push back against the crank and take away power).

A warning about knock sensing (knk).  In my day, knock detection was rpm limited to the processing speed of the ecu.  For example, a 4-cylinder could perform knock detection all the way to around 7000 rpm depending on bore size.  The larger the bore, the slower the ringing which pushed knk high.  We had three different frequency knock sensors just for our different fours, and the wrong one installed would turn on the check engine light.  Heres the deal.  Six cylinder even fire dropped knk detection at about 6200, and smaller v8 down as low as 4800 rpm.  High rpm detonation is not a prohibited event (well..at least in my day).  Now, back to gasoline.

When the vaporization is incomplete in the cylinder, some cylinders will be misfiring.  At that moment it doesnt matter how rich your a/f ratio is...there is extra oxygen pumped to the cats along with extra fuel.  At the substrate face you can quickly get a strong volume of around 15:1 a/f to heat the shell beyond the bond failure temp.

This entire ugly event can occur in less than an hour drive time after a bad fill-up.  Nothing kills a cat like misfire and available fuel.  The problem with heavy fuel misfire, is that it occurs at pretty high in the rev range, typically outside the misfire detection capability of the processors, so you dont see a blinking check engine light.  Misfire detection is the only "check engine light warning" that blinks at the driver, because steady misfire is so damaging to the cat.

That heavy fuel issue is double nasty, because it makes your plug readings look lean, but puts so much heat in the bottom of the bores (where the piston speed is slow), that the piston starts leaving aluminum on the bore at the beginning of the exhaust stroke.  "If the aluminum is low, the burn is slow.". Thats how you read seized pistons.  Nothing seizes pistons better than late, long burn time.

Your ceramic honeycomb is pretty finely eroded, which is probably good news.  When the bits are small, and make it to the subcat, they dont as often get sucked back into the cylinders on high rpm decel.

Sorry there is no way for me to offer good advice.  I just dont have the know-how to make a good judgement.  All I can go on, is my experience, and I have seen cats like yours in almost new cars, AFTER the customer recently filled up...and sometimes in an unfamiliar area from a generic gas station they had never visited before.  Often, there would be a "hot floor" complaint, or "sticky stuff leaking under my car" complaint (melting coatings). 

My " personal best technical inspection" had 194 mile on the car!  It got fixed under warranty, but we had a nice interview and friendly discussion about using caution when the attendant asks if you want it in a can.  The customer did think it was odd that they had to use a funnel to put it in his tank!

Time to stop, a'fore I get kicked off the bus.  All that news, and no solid conclusion, but maybe itll give you some idea for your choice.

JimL

Offline JimL

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2013, 12:10:34 PM »
JH. ...sorry, I didnt explain that quite right in the second paragraph.  When the ecu pulls back timing, due to knock, the extra fuel is not that big a jump.  It is just trying to stop the knock, while getting off of 14.7:1 long enough to cool the exhaust.  Therefore, as long as the gasoline is good it does NOT create an extreme long burn.  It is always safer for the cat to head a little rich ratio, rather than cross 15:1 on the way to lean cooling side.

Running a little rich, during that event, keeps the cat from high oxygen that is needed to make heat.  That is a thin line, because oxygen storage capacity of the cats must be adequate to handle quick throttle application and the attendant added exhaust gases.

Also, the catalyst bonding is somewhat susceptible to shock cracking both from steel shell distortion and from exhaust pulse hammering.  Remember....if the exhaust sounds sharp and loud, that is rich.  Softer and mellower is the lean side.  Thats why your exhaust gets quieter right before you seize down there in the third mile!

Just in case you never noticed.... :-o

Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2013, 01:23:50 PM »
JimL

I cant thank you enough for taking the time to answer these questions.

-Clearly proving that people from Oregon are smarter, more helpful and more handsome then other people anywhere in the world!!!

LOL

Thanks again!

~JH
jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2013, 01:57:29 PM »
And I, the hijacker, also send thanks.  I not only learned a whole bunch from the responses to Chris' question, but quite a bit about mine query.  I both read the stuff that was kindly provided here -- and found the time to go traipsing through internet-land to dig up some more.  Result:  No, backpressure is not GOOD for much of anything real save perhaps emissions and stuff -- but for sure not much for performance (even in the world of street-only vehicles.  Thanks.

And anyway, who doesn't agree that open pipes sound a lot stronger than muffled ones? :-D :-D
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Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2013, 05:27:24 PM »
  Stainless, remember: LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES!
  Hot Nuts:  I spent my first 36 years in Oregon, and can almost see it from my roof so I will only ask to be described as "good looking" (or at least better than Stainless).
                                                                            :roll: Bob  :cheers:
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Offline Dr Goggles

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2013, 07:57:49 PM »
  Stainless, remember: LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES!
  Hot Nuts:  I spent my first 36 years in Oregon, and can almost see it from my roof so I will only ask to be described as "good looking" (or at least better than Stainless).
                                                                            :roll: Bob  :cheers:

Come down from the roof Bob, all is forgiven............
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2013, 08:38:41 PM »
LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES!



Indeed they do.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll: