Author Topic: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?  (Read 29573 times)

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Offline JimL

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Re: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2013, 01:36:39 PM »
Thanks....now I feel better.  A19 is what I have had good results with.  I will try other improvements.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 01:38:49 PM by JimL »

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2013, 03:48:01 PM »
Thanks....now I feel better.  A19 is what I have had good results with.  I will try other improvements.

Is A-19 one of the choices at Speedweek?  :?
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Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline JimL

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Re: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2013, 05:11:21 PM »
Yes it is.  I first tried this in 2000 when our little turbo roadster.  It only went 102 on the first pass with A8C (had been running 150 at ElMirage on Shell Red).  Went back to the fuel truck and switched to A19.  We went straight back to the line without touching a thing.  Car went 183.

I have been worried that I am playing it too cautious, with my small bike engine, but I believe Dean has straightened me out.

Offline fredvance

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Re: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2013, 06:04:56 PM »
In my 16-1 motor the A19 made 226-227hp, 110 made 229, and VP Q16 made 235.
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Offline Ken Yooper

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Re: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2013, 06:46:14 PM »
Excellent discussion regarding compression ratios as well as fuel choices.  

Don't want to hijack this thead but has anyone ever wondered about or checked running compression pressures?  From the simple screw in compression gauge - with corresponding cylinder misfire - or pizeo - to perhaps some exotic calcuations?  WOT at max torque - at max HP?    At idle RPM?

Hmm.

Chime in folks-

Best - -

KenB
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 08:09:53 PM by Ken Yooper »
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2013, 11:24:24 PM »
The best results I have had is to vary the spark advance angle until I get optimum power with a gasoline, and then to try another blend and find the best spark advance angle for it.  Then I compare horsepower.  It seems that each blend has its own best advance curve setting.   

Offline JimL

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Re: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2013, 12:40:36 AM »
This is gonna' get ugly...you might want to stop right here.

Active compression check at idle is used on modern production engines to identify ring, valve, guide, or valve spring problems.  A cranking compression check can provide enough air pressure to help sealing.  When the engine is idlng, the air volume available per cylinder is much smaller for a shorter time.  We often see 50-80psi across all cylinders, at idle.  A weak valve spring, or worn guide , will drop that cylinder to 35 psi or so.  Not that much performance issue noticeable, but a check engine light turns "on".

A cranking compression test on this problem engine might show 175-180 across the board.  The trick for a proper test is to keep idle air control fixed while testing each cylinder.  The more cylinders the engine has, the more useful this test can become.  I have seen V8 with a broken inner valve spring, making no noise because the pieces had screwed themselves together, that only this test was able to pinpoint a reason for P30# misfire code.  This really gets nerve wracking when you've seen a slow to disengage starter Bendix setting engine misfire codes due to crank dampening during the slow engagement release!

There are some ways to get a diagnosis by looking at the electrical "ringing" following spark event, but this can be caused by a dirty injector.  If that is suspected, an oscilloscope must be used on each injector signal.  A dirty or damaged injector will have more active back-emf ringing pattern (after injector closing) than other injectors, due to change of range/rate of pintle movement in the coil.  That takes more time, and has more potential for harness damage, than starting with a simple active idle compression test.  

With the reduced rpm range of the newer designs, allowing very light valve spring pressure, diagnosis judgement can get hard to call.  Even the cam lobes are only a little over 1/4" wide, these days.  Loads are so light, the chains look like jewelry material...and dont seem to wear at all.  It's all about narrowing the rpm range to keep catalyst volume down, by adding more gears in the trans.  The bigger the engine, the more gears you need....especially if it is making good power.  Electronic throttles allow the ECM to reduce the number of throttle transitions through 15:1 a/f ratios (transition between fuel on and off), which tend to notch up cat temps in steps.  At about 1850 degrees, degradation begins.  When a/f ratios start leaning beyond 15:1 there is not enough fire left to overheat the cat...its the trip getting there that puts in heat, needing time and air flow to get out.

So now we are back to the delicate little valve stems and springs, and low tension thin rings, which have much less tolerance for "trouble" than the old stuff.  We need them to reduce friction, extend oil life, and still have great response in a narrower engine speed range.  All modern prodction cars start with the selection of cat size to do the target job... then you build a car around it.

So we teach the techs to do active idle compression testing before they replace a gazillion dollars in warranty parts for naught.  Now there is a twisted, tortured trail on the way to one answer to your question!

Welcome to the Brave New World. :-P.

This was the torture I lived with for 20 years until Social Security tapped me on the shoulder and said,"clock out, buddy, time to go home.". I told you it was ugly.....

JimL
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 01:05:31 AM by JimL »

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2013, 11:26:15 AM »
Quote
"Information - we want - information"

Now we have transitioned to the area where we say, "Ok, I now have active cylinder pressures recorded from a dyno run. Absolute cylinder pressure/vacuum Vs crank angle
absolute inlet manifold pressure/vacuum Vs crank angle, absolute exhaust manifold/header pressure/vacuum Vs crank angle......"

Having the data and doing something with that data is a whole nuther world. If you touch ANYTHING you have to run the tests all over to see what the effect was. When you look at engine data you may peel off 20 things that you could do to improve the situation. Each affects the other.

Sometimes it's better to shoot the engineer and run the damn thing.

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Offline JimL

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Re: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2013, 12:54:17 PM »
Sorry to slip off track, fellows....shouldnt be blogging with a fever and medication!  I hope no one thinks I dont stand in wonder of the company engineers....that is an overworked, underpaid profession.  Despite the obstacles, they solve the problems. :cheers:

The spark advance puzzle is really tough for those of us using unusual engine designs with no known historical data and no budget to test.  Many of us just try to find something that starts working, and then spend years gaining very small improvement.  Its a hobby, so its ok.

Regards, JimL


Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2013, 01:01:57 PM »
Thanks Dean.

I've run a bunch of different projects over the years and I've always considered my self more of a chassis guy. I prefer to have the serious engine guys build the lump and I'll make the thing get round the corners. I have no problem making the necessary adjustments for weather conditions and altitude but I prefer to leave it to others to do the really fancy stuff on the internals. At the same time I've really enjoyed this discussion and others relating to how the horsepower is actually made as it gives a little further insight into what actually makes a racing project of any sort successful.

Keep moving forward guys. The learning never stops!!!  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Pete

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2013, 01:40:04 PM »

The spark advance puzzle is really tough for those of us using unusual engine designs with no known historical data and no budget to test.  Many of us just try to find something that starts working, and then spend years gaining very small improvement.  Its a hobby, so its ok.


And in no other sport are you going to find a wider variety of unusual engine designs.

One of the things we're looking at is to essentially start from scratch on an advance curve.  Not that the BMC A series is an uncommon engine, but with the shortened stroke and long rod-to-stroke ratio, the long relative dwell at TDC with respect to the fairly constant burn rate of the AF mixture is going to give us a very narrow window of maximized advance.

Many variables . . .
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2013, 02:01:31 PM »
Excellent discussion regarding compression ratios as well as fuel choices.  

Don't want to hijack this thead but has anyone ever wondered about or checked running compression pressures?  From the simple screw in compression gauge - with corresponding cylinder misfire - or pizeo - to perhaps some exotic calcuations?  WOT at max torque - at max HP?    At idle RPM?

Hmm.

Chime in folks-

Best - -

KenB

Actually, your question is inter-related to C/Ratios, (all of them), pressure ratios, and pressure decay rates.

Oem's and very serious racing engine developers, and others, record and analyse many esoteric bits of data, among them being:

absolute cylinder pressure/vacuum Vs crank angle
absolute inlet manifold pressure/vacuum Vs crank angle
absolute exhaust manifold/header pressure/vacuum Vs crank angle

among others......

They don't do this just because they are able to do so.

No one who has access to this type of info for racing engines is going to publish it on the web.   It's just too expensive to acquire and too valuable to give away.   There are some collegiate texts on internal combustion, which cover the basics of this.   Check out my reading list.

There MAY be some way to acquire this data for your engine, IF, you can convince a professor at a large university (and his graduate students) to take an interest in your project.

Also, I know that there is a cylinder pressure transducer that fits under a spark plug.   I have no experience with it and no idea how accurate it may be.   It does indicate though that there may be some transducers available at a reasonable cost.   You would still need someone to analyse the data though.
 :cheers:
Fordboy

edit was to correct spelling, sorry. :-(

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Online stay`tee

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Re: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2015, 04:41:49 AM »
Reserecting this thread,,

the discussion to date has been about the single stick camshaft,,

What are the advantages/disavantages in relation to compression/performance rpm range, of double overhead cams, where the lobe centers can be set indepently, thus affecting overlap and duration ?,,,
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Offline panic

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Re: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2015, 11:27:24 PM »
What are the advantages/disavantages

You don't have to manufacture new cams quite as often.

Online stay`tee

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Re: Compression Ratios, what do they mean?
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2015, 05:43:41 AM »
"some guys are spoiled by the simplicity of one cam, though,"

this comment says it all,, given the infinete settings that can be achieved with double overhead cams,,

my experience to date has shown that changes in exhaust cam timing really dont achieve much, however messin with the inlet can show  noticable improvements or losses,,

exhaust design is directly related to exhaust cam timing, i have often wonded what improvement would occure if one was to change their exhaust system in line with exhaust cam timing,,,
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 05:45:58 AM by stay`tee »
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