Author Topic: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?  (Read 16518 times)

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Offline desotoman

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Re: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2013, 05:54:16 PM »


So. it got me thinking...... if a guy up in Canada can fabricate a 392 hemi engine block, what is stopping people elsewhere from fabricating flathead blocks...... and putting in priority oiling, 5 bearings, KickA** porting, rerouted and/or better cooled exhaust ports etc....?



Look at new ECTA rules for 2013.

Car Rule Changes for 2013

Section 1 General Competition Requirements

2.A.1 Vintage Engines

XF class consists of any production FORD/MERCURY, passenger car V-8 Flathead engine, 1932 through 1953, up to 325 cid. A replacement cast iron block is allowed.

Tom G.

PS. I don't agree with it, but I am not a member of ECTA.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 08:27:59 PM by desotoman »
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Offline JustaRacer

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Re: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2013, 07:25:23 PM »
...
So. it got me thinking...... if a guy up in Canada can fabricate a 392 hemi engine block, what is stopping people elsewhere from fabricating flathead blocks...... and putting in priority oiling, 5 bearings, KickA** porting, rerouted and/or better cooled exhaust ports etc....?



Using technology known prior to 1938, and using a factory flathead engine:

Grind cam for all intake lobes and run cam at crank speed.
Roots blower at low PR runs into intake and exhaust ports.
Turbocharger provides additional boost.
Mill exhaust ports into the cylinders near bottom, bridged, which feeds turbo.
Run methanol and nitrous oxide as a two stroke.

Why?

Period correct technology.  More HP available before mechanical limits are hit (at a given peak cyl pressure, you can make more HP).  High octane oxygenated modern fuels and nitromethane were later developments.  If nitromethane was known to work as a motor fuel, you would have seen it in WWII, like nitrous and methanol.

Not that anyone would do it, but it could make stupid amounts of power without resorting to later technology or aftermarket blocks or heads.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 07:27:54 PM by JustaRacer »
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Offline fastman614

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Re: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2013, 07:53:13 PM »
OKAY..... I SINCERELY APOLOGIZE FOR MY NOT THINKING!!!!! as a racer of modern stuff, if classic coupe/sedan is considered modern, I honestly forgot that-

flatheads are vintage class engines and, as such, ANY aftermarket block is a non legal part.....(or does that not apply to streamliners and lakesters?)

Anyway, it does not change the piston issue any.....
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Offline fastman614

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Re: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2013, 08:19:39 PM »
...
So. it got me thinking...... if a guy up in Canada can fabricate a 392 hemi engine block, what is stopping people elsewhere from fabricating flathead blocks...... and putting in priority oiling, 5 bearings, KickA** porting, rerouted and/or better cooled exhaust ports etc....?



Using technology known prior to 1938, and using a factory flathead engine:

Grind cam for all intake lobes and run cam at crank speed.
Roots blower at low PR runs into intake and exhaust ports.
Turbocharger provides additional boost.
Mill exhaust ports into the cylinders near bottom, bridged, which feeds turbo.
Run methanol and nitrous oxide as a two stroke.

Why?

Period correct technology.  More HP available before mechanical limits are hit (at a given peak cyl pressure, you can make more HP).  High octane oxygenated modern fuels and nitromethane were later developments.  If nitromethane was known to work as a motor fuel, you would have seen it in WWII, like nitrous and methanol.

Not that anyone would do it, but it could make stupid amounts of power without resorting to later technology or aftermarket blocks or heads.

This is a very interesting concept!.... I used a twist of this many years ago to make a compressor out of 4 cylinders of a V8 engine - without a custom compressor head for one side of the engine which results in an odd firing and imbalance 4 cylinder engine powering the compressor...

The four compressor cylinders were "two stroke" and used the intake valves as intake and the exhaust valves as exhausts....I had to make special headers for the exhaust side as four of the ports were now compressor discharge ports andof course, the other four remained as exhaust ports for the engine, but the intake worked okay with a one barrel carb on an adaptor and the the compressor intake being through the other plane of the manifold.

The compressor lobes were nominally 180 degree lobes.... at .005" lift...It was a "faked up" profile....  The custom grind was done by Shadbolt Cam in Vancouver BC..... I don't know where they obtained the blank from but, I guess, cam blanks are made every day somewhere in the world and if you are a cam grinder, you know where to get them. We got thinking about this compressor section being able to be used as a supercharger......

A second one of these engines never got built - at least not by us....

Incidentally, the idea of this came as a result of us rebuilding a fabricated compressor head for a commercially made engine/compressor combo....and, if we were doing this, how could we do it cheaper and better?

The point is though, that JustaRacer's idea about making a two stroke may just be a viable idea as compressors ARE two stroke in principle.... The problem that I always saw as the biggest obstacle to the high performance application of this is that you will need valve train components that are rated at twice the engine rpm of for stroke engines..... i.e. for an engine revving 8000 rpm, you will need 16000 rpm valvegear.
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Offline JustaRacer

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Re: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2013, 08:35:01 PM »
It would run even without a cam or valve springs, but probably wouldn't run well.   Gravity will allow you to start the engine, then boost will open the valve during the exhaust event.  The valves will close during compression.
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2013, 09:15:13 PM »
There are a lot of good posts on this thread.  One thing to mention is a person's willingness and ability to do routine inspections and periodic parts replacement.  Sometimes the old 4000 feet per minute average speed rule makes sense from a time and money viewpoint - if there are other ways to get speed such as better aero, etc. 

Offline fastman614

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Re: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2013, 10:58:18 PM »
...
So. it got me thinking...... if a guy up in Canada can fabricate a 392 hemi engine block, what is stopping people elsewhere from fabricating flathead blocks...... and putting in priority oiling, 5 bearings, KickA** porting, rerouted and/or better cooled exhaust ports etc....?



Using technology known prior to 1938, and using a factory flathead engine:

Grind cam for all intake lobes and run cam at crank speed.
Roots blower at low PR runs into intake and exhaust ports.
Turbocharger provides additional boost.
Mill exhaust ports into the cylinders near bottom, bridged, which feeds turbo.
Run methanol and nitrous oxide as a two stroke.

Why?

Period correct technology.  More HP available before mechanical limits are hit (at a given peak cyl pressure, you can make more HP).  High octane oxygenated modern fuels and nitromethane were later developments.  If nitromethane was known to work as a motor fuel, you would have seen it in WWII, like nitrous and methanol.

Not that anyone would do it, but it could make stupid amounts of power without resorting to later technology or aftermarket blocks or heads.

This is a very interesting concept!.... I used a twist of this many years ago to make a compressor out of 4 cylinders of a V8 engine - without a custom compressor head for one side of the engine which results in an odd firing and imbalance 4 cylinder engine powering the compressor...

The four compressor cylinders were "two stroke" and used the intake valves as intake and the exhaust valves as exhausts....I had to make special headers for the exhaust side as four of the ports were now compressor discharge ports andof course, the other four remained as exhaust ports for the engine, but the intake worked okay with a one barrel carb on an adaptor and the the compressor intake being through the other plane of the manifold.

The compressor lobes were nominally 180 degree lobes.... at .005" lift...It was a "faked up" profile....  The custom grind was done by Shadbolt Cam in Vancouver BC..... I don't know where they obtained the blank from but, I guess, cam blanks are made every day somewhere in the world and if you are a cam grinder, you know where to get them. We got thinking about this compressor section being able to be used as a supercharger......

A second one of these engines never got built - at least not by us....

Incidentally, the idea of this came as a result of us rebuilding a fabricated compressor head for a commercially made engine/compressor combo....and, if we were doing this, how could we do it cheaper and better?

The point is though, that JustaRacer's idea about making a two stroke may just be a viable idea as compressors ARE two stroke in principle.... The problem that I always saw as the biggest obstacle to the high performance application of this is that you will need valve train components that are rated at twice the engine rpm of for stroke engines..... i.e. for an engine revving 8000 rpm, you will need 16000 rpm valvegear.

What I forgot to put in to the sentence saying - "The compressor lobes were nominally 180 degree lobes...." should have read - "...180 degree DOUBLE lobes...."

think of that cam profile..... lol
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Offline panic

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Re: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2013, 10:38:10 AM »
The piston speed limitation isn't really practical for long strokes.
The piston accel is the breakage point, but even with a fairly low rod ratio (with 7.00" rod, n = 1.514:1) 6,000 RPM is only 101,190 f/s/s, quite safe for quality parts.

Offline 38flattie

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Re: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2013, 11:00:42 AM »
The piston speed limitation isn't really practical for long strokes.
The piston accel is the breakage point, but even with a fairly low rod ratio (with 7.00" rod, n = 1.514:1) 6,000 RPM is only 101,190 f/s/s, quite safe for quality parts.

Panic, n= 1.8919, as my rod is 8.75"

I'm not sure of the math involved- is my piston acceleration still safe at 6000 RPM?
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Offline rouse

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Re: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2013, 02:54:41 PM »
For what its worth, in general with modern moving parts in the bottom end, 5200 piston speed will work well. The rings will not give up on you yet, if they are sized right for the job.

Chances are you could go higher than that without problems, but I have run 5200 without problems on the salt and other places. Drag racing folks have run numbers that just seem crazy " over 6500 ", but that is for only a few seconds not miles. (RPM X Stroke) / 6  =  6700 X 4.625 = 30987.5 / 6 = 5164 should work fine for 5 miles. I say any more and your on your own.

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Offline fredvance

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Re: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2013, 04:24:37 PM »
Looks like mine is almost 7000. :-D
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Offline rouse

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Re: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2013, 04:42:07 PM »
Looks like mine is almost 7000. :-D

Hope you run a belly pan :-o
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Offline Freud

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Re: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2013, 04:44:32 PM »
Motorcycle engines are like Hookers.

They excel outside of the usual rules.

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Since '63

Offline panic

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Re: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2013, 10:57:50 AM »
Longer rod reduces accel slightly,

Offline fastman614

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Re: How To Determine Safe Piston Speed?
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2013, 04:04:36 AM »
For what its worth, in general with modern moving parts in the bottom end, 5200 piston speed will work well. The rings will not give up on you yet, if they are sized right for the job.

Chances are you could go higher than that without problems, but I have run 5200 without problems on the salt and other places. Drag racing folks have run numbers that just seem crazy " over 6500 ", but that is for only a few seconds not miles. (RPM X Stroke) / 6  =  6700 X 4.625 = 30987.5 / 6 = 5164 should work fine for 5 miles. I say any more and your on your own.

Rouse
Having had a brief email exchange with our engine "guru" regarding piston speed, 5200 fpm is a very achievable piston speed these days ....new alloys and techniques etc....
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