Classic Production (Supercharged) Question

[CTX-SLPR]

Howdy,

I've got a big tech question on what is legal for Classic Production in regards to the "no EFI" rule.  Now I've ordered, but not recieved, my rulebook so this may be answered but it's bugging me too much to just let go.
Can I run the "7-pin HEI" which uses a computer to control advance vs. a vacuum canister in addition to having retard functions for things like hot coolant and knock?  This was factory equipment on all Buick Turbo6's and NA 4.1's from thier introduction in 1978 (81 for the 4.1) till EFI took over and the 4.1 disappeared in 1984.  I believe it would be allowed but I want to check.

Now based on the fact that I believe it to be allowed, can I take an aftermarket unit like a Megasquirt and use it instead of the factory ESC computer to do the same thing?  I've seen pictures of MSD BTM (Boost Timing Master) module on an E/CPS Studebaker in conjuction with a MSD-6AL.  Considering the function of a BTM with the new Digital 6AL, it's basically the same as a full on Megasquirt other than it only does timing correction for boost and a custom advance curve vs. the Megasquirt's potential to do much more.  I'm not planning on using the rest of the Megasquirts control capability (other than maybe things like warning lights and TCC lockup) but I do plan on datalogging with it.  Is this plan legal?

Thanks,

[NathanStewart]

The first line of pg 66 in the current year rule book says "sensor controlled ignitions are allowed but shall be stock and not modified in any way".  Don't think a Megasquirt meets that rule.   

[CTX-SLPR]

The first line of pg 66 in the current year rule book says "sensor controlled ignitions are allowed but shall be stock and not modified in any way".  Don't think a Megasquirt meets that rule.   

Sounds like Megasquirt won't work.  Thanks for looking it up, I've not received my rulebook yet.

This puts me in a bit of a jam, need to read up on how well the ESC works and also if the MSD BTM or 6AL-2 is allowed.  More to come after I get my book and think more about it.

Thanks,

[NathanStewart]

BTM and 6AL are not EFI or "computers".  BTM simply delays points/pickup signal to ignition box to retard timing.  It is definitely not the "same thing" has a full stand alone engine management system that is programmed with a PC.  CDI ignitions are specifically permitted while non-oem engine management systems are specifically prohibited. 

[38flattie]

BTM and 6AL are not EFI or "computers".  BTM simply delays points/pickup signal to ignition box to retard timing.  It is definitely not the "same thing" has a full stand alone engine management system that is programmed with a PC.  CDI ignitions are specifically permitted while non-oem engine management systems are specifically prohibited.  

Be that as it may, Nathan, the 6AL is considered a computer by the Vintage committee, and not allowed. I realize this discussion is about the Classic class, but it seems strange it would be a computer in one class, but not another.

Installing the system moves me from XXO/BVGCC to XXO/BGCC

Yes, I have both decisions in writing. That is why we simply run a Mag, set at 26 degrees.

Partial description on 6AL from MSD Site:

Inside the Digital 6AL you'll find a microprocessor that monitors and controls every firing and rev limit. The circuits are updated with efficient components that help the ignition produce more power while drawing less current! In fact, the new Digital 6AL delivers over 530 volts to the coil with up to 135mJ of spark energy for every firing! Increased output combined with MSD's proven multiple spark series is a win-win situation!

I was told the 'microprocessor made it a computer.

[manta22]

"I was told the 'microprocessor made it a computer."

If that's the case, use a Crane HI-6 CD ignition box. If I remember correctly, it is an analog unit-- no microprocessor.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

[CTX-SLPR]

"I was told the 'microprocessor made it a computer."

If that's the case, use a Crane HI-6 CD ignition box. If I remember correctly, it is an analog unit-- no microprocessor.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Odd that I was just reading up on the Crane HI-6 and the user feedback vs. the 6AL is that it's "Digital"  Now that doesn't nessicarly mean it has a microprocessor but it probably does, I've not dug into it that much.  Also there is more than 1 MSD 6AL, the classic analog 6AL and the new 6AL-2 that I'm pretty sure the above quote came from. 

I've still not received my rulebook so I was trying to hold off on adding anything to this thread till I had it in hand and have read it, but since it's moving I'll join in.  Now if I'm not allowed to run anything that controls the engine that has a microprocessor other than a stock Buick unit this focuses my thoughts a bit more. 
The next question along those lines is can I run any Buick ESC system from 78-81 or does it have to be an 81 to match my 81 body?  Major differences is 81 has an ECM that was liked to the feedback carb, transmission lockup and such.  From a timing perspective as best I can tell it merely pulls 10deg of timing if the knock sensor goes off.  This is the same function provided by the earlier units that didn't talk to the carb, O2 sensor or really anything else other than I think CLT so it knew if the engine was warm enough to have cleared up all the cold clearance rattling.
In case it's really aimed at the programable aspect, can I run a microprocessor containing but non-programable ignition system that to get to work you set the timing and turn a knob on a potentiometer to set you retard/boost ratio?
Finally can I run both the stock Buick ESC system and an analog (or digital, non-programable) ignition system in tandem?  MSD has wiring diagrams on how to run thier 6BTM with the ESC system so it looks like it's possible.

I've just convinced the wife that this project is a go so I'm seriously working on putting together a strategy that keeps me class legal and gives me some hope of challenging a record.

[CTX-SLPR]

Thanks to Milwakee Midget for a link to something that he recommends as close enough to SCTA rules for me to ponder I read this:

The following items are NOT allowed: non-OEM Electronic Fuel Injection, (EFI), sensor-controlled engine management systems with feedback loop, and multiple magnetos or distributors.

Now it does say what is not allowed but reading between the lines, a non feedback loop sensor control engine management system would be allowed.  I would think that the various microprocessor controlled igntions (CD type systems are listed as legal) that don't do anthing other than respond to the input parameters would be allowed. 
It also says:

Sensor controlled ignitions are allowed but shall be stock and not modified in any way for the year and
model of the vehicle entered

I think this means I'd need an 81 ESC to run it but I've also read something about mixing and matching components from different years of the same generation of a body style and still being considered production... Open to answers on this.

Thanks for the link and I'll revisit when I get the offical book.

[Stainless1]

CTX, take a couple of deep breaths.... the classis production rules are designed to keep the class period correct.  That is the "spirit of the rules"    Keep that in mind when building your racer.... if you want to include all of the modern technology, get out of classic and run with the big dogs. 

[NathanStewart]

Be that as it may, Nathan, the 6AL is considered a computer by the Vintage committee, and not allowed. I realize this discussion is about the Classic class, but it seems strange it would be a computer in one class, but not another.

Installing the system moves me from XXO/BVGCC to XXO/BGCC

Yes, I have both decisions in writing. That is why we simply run a Mag, set at 26 degrees.

Partial description on 6AL from MSD Site:

Inside the Digital 6AL you'll find a microprocessor that monitors and controls every firing and rev limit. The circuits are updated with efficient components that help the ignition produce more power while drawing less current! In fact, the new Digital 6AL delivers over 530 volts to the coil with up to 135mJ of spark energy for every firing! Increased output combined with MSD's proven multiple spark series is a win-win situation!

I was told the 'microprocessor made it a computer.

Buddy, a 6AL may in fact be "digital" now but it's still just a simple CDI ignition system and is not considered a computer.  I know you weren't told that it's a computer by the Vintage Engine Committee chair; maybe you can message me and let me know who did.  Or are you inferring this on your own but a 6AL, whether it be analog or digital, is allowed in vintage and always has been.  What isn't allowed is a computerized programmable ignition system like a MegaSquirt or an MSD DIS ignition or an Electromotive.  These types of systems are actually measuring time between teeth or trigger events and calculating engine speed and position and determining when and where to fire an ignition event and they must be programmed in order to have an ignition curve.  An MSD 6AL does not have this capability whatsoever.

[38flattie]

Nathan, I was indeed told that by the Vintage people, but not by the Vintage Engine Chair. Intially the reply was "Any ignition is allowed in the vintage classes. You would still be in vintage XXO/BVGCC." and in a second email "The rule says ignition system. The MSD system is not a computer , it can not think it can only do preprogrammed Functions."

After further review, I guess, I received this on Sept., 14th, 2011 "After looking at the MSD you want to use it is a computer. It takes information and makes changes that have nothing to do with ignition functions so it is not legal in vintage engine/vintage body classes."

This was a request to use the 6AL and a BTM.

I PM'd you the details.

Ironically, I still see some of these running in Vintage classes!

[38flattie]

CTX-SLPr, I apologize for this temporary hijack of your thread!


This board is a great place for info, but you really need to contact the proper committee to get rules clarification. Often times, you will find, the inspectors and committee people interpret the rules different.

Hell, sometimes even Committee Chairs differ on opinions!

Get the clarification in writing, and keep it in your build book- you won't be sorry!

Good luck with the build!

[CTX-SLPR]

Not a problem, your question is as much along the lines of what I was asking as what I was doing myself.

I'm thinking I'm going to continue waiting for my book, read it up, do digging on the systems availible and then with documentation approach the comittee about if I can run something specific.

I see your also in CO, does the altitude here make it a bit easier to tune for Bonneville?

[NathanStewart]

CTX, take a couple of deep breaths.... the classis production rules are designed to keep the class period correct.  That is the "spirit of the rules"    Keep that in mind when building your racer.... if you want to include all of the modern technology, get out of classic and run with the big dogs. 

Sage advice from a vet.  Reading between the lines has its risks.  Remember that the SCTA isn't a democracy.  The guys that wrote those rules know what they meant when they wrote them even though they might not be the best at fully understanding that having a feedback loop isn't what makes an engine management system an engine management system.  Your stay in impound could be short if you show up with something that you think is legal because you interpretted a rule the way you wanted to.  Claryifing like you are is definitely the right thing to do. 

I've also read something about mixing and matching components from different years of the same generation of a body style and still being considered production... Open to answers on this.

Nope.  Read the production class description.  No mixing and matching allowed. 

BTW the E/CPS record is an "only one to run" record and is soft by most means.  Realistically, it should probably be over 200 mph.  This whole thing you've got going on looking for loop holes in the rules or trying to figure out what are the best tires to run that might get you a half mile an hour is kinda well.... weak IMO.  I've personally never really liked or admired "rules racers" - those being the folks that look through the rule book for weak rules to exploit to their advantage.  IMO you should build it, build it strong and build it to go fast and leave all the pussyfootin' BS behind.   

Did that rule book show up yet?

 

[dw230]

If I read between your lines I think the "mix/match" you are referring to is a body panel only deal. In the SCTA, non-Production classes(Comp Coupe, Altered and Gas Coupe) swapping of body panels is allowed. The SCTA considers a GM F body a F body across the year span and product line. This means if a certain year F body fender fits a different year F body shell it can be used.

This rule is the result of rules racers swapping the Monza identification on the hood with a Sky Lark(?) id part and claiming a class change.

In production classes and specifically Classic Production classes the engine parts must be year and OEM specific.

DW