Author Topic: Record qualifying on rookie run  (Read 13486 times)

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Offline JustaRacer

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Re: Record qualifying on rookie run
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2012, 04:49:04 PM »
...
It's hard to tell if the records scare new racers away, too.  A lot of the current records have been set over minimums -- and could be a lot scarier.  This association doesn't give records for showing up.

In any class with a minimum, you have no idea what the fastest entry is in that class.

If there is a 160 minimum, there could be several cars who ran.  Who was the fastest?  Your answer is nobody.

I don't buy that.  If somebody went 155 at Elmo in that class, but nobody else went as fast, they were the fastest in that class.  That's fact.  In your eyes, they never entered an event.  That's not a fact.

How often that has happened is anybodies guess.   Data is not kept that way.

"Records" are proof that it's possible.  Minimums are purely to keep track of season points, they are not based on known speeds in that specific class.

You assume an C engine is always faster than D engine in all classes.  That's not based on automotive history, and even the existing records often prove that way of thinking about minimums is not always correct.

My doctor told me to go out and kill people.
Well, sort of.  He told me to reduce the stress in my life.

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Record qualifying on rookie run
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2012, 05:08:59 PM »
"Minimums are purely to keep track of season points,"

And when in season, they keep the cherry-pickin' down.
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Record qualifying on rookie run
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2012, 05:17:08 PM »
"You assume an C engine is always faster than D engine in all classes."

I don't know how you think I assume that.  I do assume that a C-sized engine has more potential horsepower than a D engine.  But not all engine builds are equal.  And the records do sometimes show a smaller engine with a higher speed.  But almost all of them have surpassed the minimums that were required for them -- some just more than others.

What factors would you choose to replace displacement in setting minimums in the same category?  Fuel is potentially faster than gas.  Blown is potentially faster than unblown.  C is faster than D.  Maybe this is too simple -- but it's worked for a long time.
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline JustaRacer

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Re: Record qualifying on rookie run
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2012, 06:06:55 PM »
"Minimums are purely to keep track of season points,"

And when in season, they keep the cherry-pickin' down.

I have no idea what cherry picking is.

You prep your car, and you haul the mail.  If you want to drive like grandma then let her drive.

Or are you saying Points == Bracket Racing?

If "cherry picking" were the name of the game, there would only be roadsters and motorcycles.  Seems there are other entries as well.

I guess some people just want to haul arse in their car based on what shows up in lanes.  However, fear of the Cherry Monster keeps some of them from being the fastest in their SCTA class.
My doctor told me to go out and kill people.
Well, sort of.  He told me to reduce the stress in my life.

Offline JustaRacer

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Re: Record qualifying on rookie run
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2012, 06:17:43 PM »
"You assume an C engine is always faster than D engine in all classes."

I don't know how you think I assume that.  I do assume that a C-sized engine has more potential horsepower than a D engine.  But not all engine builds are equal.  And the records do sometimes show a smaller engine with a higher speed.  But almost all of them have surpassed the minimums that were required for them -- some just more than others.

What factors would you choose to replace displacement in setting minimums in the same category?  Fuel is potentially faster than gas.  Blown is potentially faster than unblown.  C is faster than D.  Maybe this is too simple -- but it's worked for a long time.

Why are some larger engines slower than smaller engines?  Engine design.

There are not an infinite number of production engines.  It's finite.

In any case, if you are ASKING me, minimums should be for points only, not records.  No points for records under the minimum.  They still get their "Fastest Hupmobile" bragging rights, but they don't compete in points.

Let's look at UDT, where the minimum was raised.  It allows 750ci.  The record at Elmo will NOT be set with an engine larger than 450ci.  Why?  The engines larger than 450ci are mutts.



My doctor told me to go out and kill people.
Well, sort of.  He told me to reduce the stress in my life.

Offline metermatch

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Re: Record qualifying on rookie run
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2012, 06:27:26 PM »
I'm not sure if this discussion has gotten off track, and perhaps I phrased the original question a bit vague, but this is what I was thinking.

(1)  I completely agree that a complete rookie should not try to set a record in their first pass.  They should be learning how to run safely.

(2)  If the rookie makes 1 or 2 passes correctly and safely, then they should be allowed to go for it.

My concern is the rule that makes a rookie a rookie, unable to set records, for an entire meet, one day or two, and whether they make 1 pass or ten.  Having to make numerous passes over two days, or just deciding to not make any passes the second day, seems a bit much.

Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Record qualifying on rookie run
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2012, 12:02:26 AM »
for the f'ing love of all things fast... did you not read my post???
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Offline JustaRacer

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Re: Record qualifying on rookie run
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2012, 12:44:18 AM »
I'm not sure if this discussion has gotten off track, and perhaps I phrased the original question a bit vague, but this is what I was thinking.

(1)  I completely agree that a complete rookie should not try to set a record in their first pass.  They should be learning how to run safely.

(2)  If the rookie makes 1 or 2 passes correctly and safely, then they should be allowed to go for it.

My concern is the rule that makes a rookie a rookie, unable to set records, for an entire meet, one day or two, and whether they make 1 pass or ten.  Having to make numerous passes over two days, or just deciding to not make any passes the second day, seems a bit much.

Welcome to the interwebbythingy.  Hijacking threads is common.  Sorry.

Like Nathan said, if you show up, pass tech, pay attention to the rookie orientation, get in the rookie lane, then make a clean pass per the rules without scaring anyone, you should be allowed to run from the regular lanes next pass at Elmo.  This is how it normally works. 

Forget to pop your chute, turn out in the wrong direction, blow out the back door, speed down the return road, exceed your tech speed, etc, you'll have to keep running rookie passes.

Don't worry so much.  It's supposed to be fun, and everyone wants you to do well and have a good time.

I'd go to an event first and watch though.  Ask lots of questions.  See how the tech and lanes work.

You'll be nervous your first race because things are different than what you're normally used to.  Watching an event helps a lot.
My doctor told me to go out and kill people.
Well, sort of.  He told me to reduce the stress in my life.

Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Record qualifying on rookie run
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2012, 10:59:07 AM »
Like Nathan said, if you show up, pass tech, pay attention to the rookie orientation, get in the rookie lane, then make a clean pass per the rules without scaring anyone, you should be allowed to run from the regular lanes next pass at Elmo.  This is how it normally works.

pat this is no longer the case.  rookies are rookies for the entire event now at el mirage.  this was changed because the simple one-and-done tactic was not working and if people will remember back a few years ago it certainly seemed like we were having a record number of infractions. not all infractions were from newbies... many were but many were also 'veteran' racers.  anyways, since inception of new program infractions have been dramatically decreased.  the el mirage procedures give me and the event director (scta prez) the ability to 'graduate' people out of rookie status early on a case-by-case basis.  in the four years that i've been doing rookie orientation i think i've done this maybe twice.  the point of being a rookie is to get seat time, not set records.  like i said, records take a back seat to learning how to do things right and being a good and safe driver/rider.
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Offline FADED

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Re: Record qualifying on rookie run
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2012, 11:17:59 AM »
METERMATCH, Are your plans to go out and set a record on your first run and be done with it?? Or are you in for the long haul??
The rules are set and we have no (at least not much) control over it. Go out in May and do the whole rookie thing, have fun make some friends, come back out in June with the ambilicle cord cut and set the record books on fire. We're still rookies and this will be our 4th year running, We are NO where near a record and dont see it happening anytime soon ($$) but we are having the time of our lives and have made friends with some of the best people in the world. GOOD LUCK!!

Offline JustaRacer

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Re: Record qualifying on rookie run
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2012, 11:48:23 AM »
Like Nathan said, if you show up, pass tech, pay attention to the rookie orientation, get in the rookie lane, then make a clean pass per the rules without scaring anyone, you should be allowed to run from the regular lanes next pass at Elmo.  This is how it normally works.

pat this is no longer the case.  rookies are rookies for the entire event now at el mirage.  this was changed because the simple one-and-done tactic was not working and if people will remember back a few years ago it certainly seemed like we were having a record number of infractions. not all infractions were from newbies... many were but many were also 'veteran' racers.  anyways, since inception of new program infractions have been dramatically decreased.  the el mirage procedures give me and the event director (scta prez) the ability to 'graduate' people out of rookie status early on a case-by-case basis.  in the four years that i've been doing rookie orientation i think i've done this maybe twice.  the point of being a rookie is to get seat time, not set records.  like i said, records take a back seat to learning how to do things right and being a good and safe driver/rider.

DOH!!!!  Sorry.

Guess it's time for me to RTFM (Read The Friendly Manual), or STFU (won't spell that one). :-D
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 11:52:17 AM by JustaRacer »
My doctor told me to go out and kill people.
Well, sort of.  He told me to reduce the stress in my life.

Offline Glen

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Re: Record qualifying on rookie run
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2012, 02:18:26 PM »
Never mind, I won't say it.
Glen
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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Record qualifying on rookie run
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2012, 02:25:13 PM »
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Offline JustaRacer

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Re: Record qualifying on rookie run
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2012, 02:55:09 PM »
Never mind, I won't say it.


Thanks.

 :evil:



My doctor told me to go out and kill people.
Well, sort of.  He told me to reduce the stress in my life.

Offline metermatch

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Re: Record qualifying on rookie run
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2012, 02:18:02 AM »
My restating my question was not because because I didn't understand what Nathan said, it was because it appeared that others got off on a tangent from the original intent of my question.

And yes, Nathan, I have read the El Mirage procedures numerous times.  And yes, I did read the part about race director and others have the ability to graduate people from rookie status early.

I was just pretty unsure as to how often the early graduation was occuring.  My gut feeling was rarely.  Your last post confirms my gut feel (3 people in 4 years).

Which goes back to my original post once again: Bonneville modified the rule, allowing runs under 150 mph to qualify.  I was only interested in knowing if this might be extended to El Mirage.  Some said no.  Others said bring it up to the rules committee.

As for whether I am in this for the "long haul", that is hard for anyone to know.  What I do know is there are perhaps 7 or 8 events a year to do this, minus weather delays, and conflicts with my drag racing.  I suspect I can only make it to 3-4 events a year.  I was just trying to speed things up a bit, and get a few record attempts under my belt before going to Bonneville.



Jeff