Author Topic: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners  (Read 78645 times)

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Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #90 on: November 21, 2012, 12:20:47 AM »
Jon..
Torsional tests..... hummmm remember you have 2 wheels... the front has a contact patch the size of a quarter... and the rear has a contact patch of 2 quarters... oh, they are both on a slippery surface.... you don't have a wide front or rear end like a car acting like a leverage arm... whats gonna twist yer chassis?
kr

Offline Jon

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #91 on: November 21, 2012, 02:02:28 AM »
I'm not sure Kent.

I've ridden some 1970s bikes that had liquorice frames that were prone to the odd weave or shake, something I'm pretty determined to avoid.

Thanks
jon
Underhouse Engineering
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Offline 55chevr

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #92 on: November 21, 2012, 07:04:01 AM »
Jon,
I remember well riding worked Kawi Z1-s hard and you could feel the frame flex in a corner.  After we added gussets and linked the top tubes it was much more controllable.  It was more lack of design than materials.

Joe

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #93 on: November 21, 2012, 10:35:34 AM »
It was more lack of design than materials.

Actually it was a lack of materials in the design! I added the bracing to six or seven of them. The customers always came back raving that it was a brand new bike.

Pete

Offline Plmkrze

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #94 on: November 21, 2012, 11:07:52 AM »
Please, ladies and gentleman don’t bash the engineers, scientists’ nor the well intentioned rules makers!

There are some very interesting videos of Bonneville crashes (in vehicle) on U Tube.  Please, look at these videos and concentrate on the moments of impact. Those moments are what you build for! Those moments are extremely violent. Sure, you don’t want the vehicle to “grind off” all its bits as it is sliding and injure the occupant. But as the vehicle is sliding or “flying” it and its occupant are doing nothing more than moving in a straight line (vector). If this movement alone was dangerous, humans would not be able to travel! Even by bicycle!

What hurts (especially at higher velocities) is when the vehicle/occupant tries to change the direction of the forward movement (vector)! What a “good” design does is allow that at the moment of impact (change in vector) the energy of this vector change is changed into something that doesn’t injury the occupant. OR, the changes duration (total time) is kept to a minimum. Optimally both!

Does the material that the vehicle is constructed from have a bearing on the ability to safely decelerate the occupant without sustaining life changing or life ending injuries. Sure it does, but to say that bigger will improve safety of the occupant in a sudden deceleration event does not take into account ALL the other variables that occurred prior to the event, the variables during the event and the variables after the event.

From what I have seen, a MC streamliner tends to “pencil roll” and then grind to a halt. It looks like a lot of “little hits” of very short duration in rapid succession.
 
Now, granted I would not want to try it, but it seems to me that bigger bars are not going to increase rider safety in that type of deceleration event.  :|
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Offline edweldon

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #95 on: November 22, 2012, 02:58:37 AM »
I'm late into this discussion.  Don't often get time to get deep into the threads here.  But I spent all evening reading and rereading this thread. 
What worries me here is that an SCTA safety rule almost got passed by a more or less democratic process without any good technical backing to support it.  Shame on club leadership representatives for not challenging this.  It's time for real engineering. 
One above reply pleaded "Please resist the urge to make this complex."  Well I'm sorry friend; but it is complex. 
If you want to analyze it FEA is just the first building block.  The rest of the problem involves elastic/plastic deformation of a complex multicomponent structure with various and complex dampening properties and its dynamic response to a complex pattern of random impacts in a 3 dimensional field.  If you want to view the results of this kind of engineering at the state of the art level Look at JPL's video simulation of the Mars Rover landing.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/XRCIzZHpFtY?rel=0
  That inflatable cushion likely had that kind of analysis behind it.  And I'm pretty sure that no matter what computer tools they had they still put the Rover on a shaker table and "wrapped it" in accelerometers.  So none of us can afford that kind of engineering.
 But don't forget that real engineering sometimes has only objective analysis of past experience as a practical part of its tool box.  It took a few well versed and experienced outsiders to raise the experience "flag" in this streamliner roll cage issue.  Why wasn't this a part of the SCTA rule change process.  Even our dysfunctional national Congress has committee hearings where (usually but not always) scientific and technical issues relevant to new legislation get a hearing.
So as inconvenient as it may be for the voting representatives of the SCTA organization I feel it is essential that they be well versed in the best reasonably available technical information and issues relevant to any major change in safety requirements before they exercise a final vote on a rules change.
Ed Weldon
Captain Eddie's Day Old Fish Market -- home of the Bonneville Salt Fish
Featuring the modern miracle of mechanical refrigeration.

Offline Jon

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #96 on: November 22, 2012, 05:28:32 AM »
Thanks for your reply Ed

What do you suggest we do then that is achievable with a non NASA budget?

When I said "don't make it complex" I was referring to the conversation around different G loadings from different tubing size.
Unless the roll cage deforms there is negligible energy dissipation, the G force loading on the rider is exactly the same regardless of the tubing size.
I'm not aware of anyone building a crumple zone into a tubing rollcage.
The balloons on the Mars lander are high tech crumple zones.

To assess whether the roll cage will deform in an impact would involve doing an almost infinite number of FEA style drop tests at different impact points, impact angles and velocities.

I'm a self taught mechanic, I mentioned FEA as it is the only tool that I know of other than beaming and torsional tests that is achievable with any LSR budget, any guidance would be good.

Cheers
Jon
Underhouse Engineering
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Offline rgn

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #97 on: November 22, 2012, 06:05:42 AM »
Jon, I don't think that at 100 or 200 or 300 mph there is anyway of guaranteeing that tubing size or any other precaution will cause providence to prevail.  

The only way to make land racing truly safe is to stop participating in it.  

There will be examples of injury or worse from the simplest of incidents.  And miraculous recoveries or better from the worst.  

There is a point that you have to accept that a sport such as this is dangerous, and the consequences for participating in it sometime fatal.

It's what you would call a low risk high consequence sport.  No amount of tubing will unfortunately protect you from a bad scenario.



« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 10:02:32 AM by rgn »

Offline bak189

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #98 on: November 22, 2012, 11:22:18 AM »
No, we are not building another streamliner........However, the one I build back in the early 1990's also got a lot of flack from SCTA/BNI regarding the roll-cage....so we pulled it and put it in the Barber museum....so this roll-cage thing is nothing new.  In regards to SCTA/BNI changing and/or making new rules I have been fighthing this since 1978 with our LSR sidecars......they don't understand what they are all about, however, this does not stop them from making very restrictive rules and class changes and no amount of talking or letter writing has ever worked for me...................So we race the BUB event....no car people....only a couple of people to talk to if you have a rules or tech problem... with no car clubs board....when they don't understand something they ask for input from the racers
involved....At one time SCTA/BNI was the only game in town, but this is no longer the case, there are many other options, but as to why most of these new org.'s choose to follow the SCTA/BNI rules is something I don't understand, can't they do their own thinking????......OK. I am done.....B.B..   
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Offline 8

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #99 on: November 22, 2012, 01:34:07 PM »
   and how many of you are actually PROFESSIONAL CHASSIS BUILDERS  and that is what you do for a living and have built numerous vehicles that have SURVIVED SERIOUS CRASHES  ???????????
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 02:18:43 PM by 8 »

Offline Glen

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #100 on: November 22, 2012, 01:54:36 PM »
8 unless you ID yourself I doubt you will get answers to your question. SCTA and LSR in general have a very good survival rate.
Glen
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Offline 8

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #101 on: November 22, 2012, 02:20:18 PM »
You all seem to have an opinion on what works, but do any of you REALLY KNOW

Offline Freud

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #102 on: November 22, 2012, 02:55:43 PM »
Does that question mean that You do know?

If so, give the answers.

FREUD
Since '63

Offline Glen

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #103 on: November 22, 2012, 03:00:01 PM »
Do you, no two crashes are the same, no two cages are the same, impact points are different. every accident is investigated and examined and taken apart to determine what failed. This is done by a selected group, photos taken, complete notes taken, parts are removed and tested to determine if it was the fault. This process takes time just like any accident. New rules are written if necessary. People have made changes after passing inspection, changed drivers that didn't fit properly from another driver. A few years ago a lakester went through inspection and crashed on the first run. The driver was injured and the reason was he added a 5" piece of foam as a seat cushion and when it flipped he came loose in the cockpit. He was lucky that he wasn't hurt more then he was. Im was on the Emergency response team for 20 years and have a complete history of the incidents during that period. This includes other LSR events besides SCTA/BNI.
Glen
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South West, Utah

Offline Jon

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #104 on: November 22, 2012, 03:00:43 PM »
+1 in what Freud said.

It may appear I'm being a tosser but I am actually wanting to gain some knowledge here, please enlighten us.

jon
Underhouse Engineering
Luck = Opportunity + Preparation^3