Author Topic: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners  (Read 78711 times)

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Offline JustaRacer

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2012, 11:06:43 AM »
What do production cars have to do with motorcycle streamliners?????

These guys already have too many car guys causing problems for them!!!

Pete

I think the more important question is what does the proposed MC streamliner change have in common with many of the recent changes.

You might think this is a unique single occurrence of an expensive rule change that is probably unnecessary, but it's not.

Exactly where do you hit the brakes?

If you claim this only a MC Streamliner issue fine.  Let the majority decide for you.

I've been riding and racing motorcycles since 1975, just not LSR yet, which I hope do next year.  There were many, many years I didn't even own a car.  I went to the Prom with my date on a MC with clipons, wearing a tux and her in a prom dress.  When I broke my leg, I strapped crutches on the side and kick started with a crutch to get to work, so I'm not sure I qualify as a "car guy" in your definition of what a car guy is.

But perhaps you're right.  MC Streamliner rules are unique and unrelated to general SCTA rules.  My opinion is different, and is just that, an opinion that enough is enough. :cheers:
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 11:22:37 AM by JustaRacer »
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Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2012, 11:21:55 AM »
I too put a lot of miles on motorcycles but I'm still mainly a car guy. I do think motorcycle streamliners are a special case, maybe not even understood by a lot of the motorcycle guys.

I think if you and I met face to face we wouldn't disagree on much.  :cheers:

Pete

Offline JustaRacer

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2012, 11:41:26 AM »
I too put a lot of miles on motorcycles but I'm still mainly a car guy. I do think motorcycle streamliners are a special case, maybe not even understood by a lot of the motorcycle guys.

I think if you and I met face to face we wouldn't disagree on much.  :cheers:

Pete

Perhaps not.   :cheers:

I consider myself a hotrodder.  From the time I mowed neighbors yards to get a minibike, until today, I'm always trying to tweak whatever I ride/drive.  My daily driver is sleeper.  Looks slow, kills vettes.

I really got hooked on LSR when I first tried it, and want to continue, but dang, the rules are going crazy.
My doctor told me to go out and kill people.
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Offline Koncretekid

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2012, 11:49:28 AM »
I have no iron in this fire as I do not have a motorcycle streamliner and have not run at SCTA ……Yet!  Hopefully, this will make me an impartial observer.

Although I am a professional engineer with a degree in mechanical engineering, I have never practiced, nor am I qualified as a structural engineer, and it has been over 40 years since I graduated.  Therefore the observations that I make here are not intended to imply that current or proposed structural requirements are adequate.

The first statement that raised a flag to me was the wording of the proposed rule change that reads as follows:

"Reason for Chg:

The current tubing sizes on some streamliners and side car streamliners "Speed X weight X Mass) is inadequate.."

I am not familiar with any formula that uses speed x weight x mass as a basis for determining structural requirements.  Firstly, weight and mass are related quantities only differentiated the force of gravity, and on the surface of the earth (which I believe includes the Bonneville Salt Flats!) they can be used interchangeably in unitless comparisons.  Therefore, the formula as given can be simplified as velocity x weight squared.  Ironically, this would imply that a 4000 lb vehicle would have 4 times the structural requirement as a 2000 lb vehicle and the argument for motorcycle streamliners to have equal structural requirements as the usually heavier 4 wheel streamliners becomes suspect.

But I believe that a better formula for determining structural requirements should be that for kinetic energy, which is the energy that a moving vehicle possesses, and that which must be dissipated for the vehicle to come to a stop.  This formula is relative to the mass (weight) of the vehicle x the velocity squared (KE=1/2mv squared).  Although this energy cannot be lost, it can be converted to heat thru the process of force times distance.  This force can be the friction of the vehicle with the ground, the friction of the air velocity on the vehicle hopefully aided by a parachute, and in worst case scenarios, by destruction of the vehicle thru crumple zones and energy absorbing wear pads.  Using the kinetic energy formula, a vehicle that is twice as heavy will have twice the kinetic energy (not four times) as a vehicle half its weight traveling at a given speed.  But, velocity is the more important factor here, because a vehicle traveling twice as fast as another one of the same weight will have four times the kinetic energy.

In any case, the force required to dissipate this energy due to friction with the surface, or destruction of the vehicle, will be proportional to its weight.  The force of friction with the ground is classically determined by the weight times the friction factor, which indicates that a heavier vehicle will undergo more energy loss due to friction which will create more heat, and will probably undergo more structural damage due to the higher friction force.  Furthermore, if the vehicle becomes airborne and returns to the ground at speed, more structural damage can be expected due to its heavier weight.

My conclusions are that SCTA and other governing bodies should be proposing structural improvements to vehicles solely based upon their weight and projected speed, and not on the number of wheels.  I would suggest that making any change based on insufficient data would not be helpful.  But it is probably important that these governing bodies take a serious look at all the structural requirements in view of the increasing speeds that are being generated and possible future speeds.  Any serious accident based on insufficient structural requirements could have a devastating consequence on our privilege of using the Salt Flats, not to mention increasing insurance cost that may follow.  The following table, if it prints as I have typed it, indicates vehicle comparisons, and the need for different structural requirements based on their relative kinetic energy.  I do not propose any solutions to the tube size requirement, as it is only one component of the structural requirements.  For purposes of comparing vehicles, I will use unit values of  (1) for a 1250 lb vehicle, and (1) for 175 mph.

Relative Kinetic Energy of Vehicle at Speed (weight x velocity x velocity, unitless)

Vehicle weight        175mph    250mph         400mph
    1250 lbs          1         2.05        5.22
    2500 lbs          2         4.10        10.44
    5000 lbs          4         8.20        20.88

This shows, for example, that a 5000 lb vehicle traveling at 400 mph will have twice (20.88/10.44) the kinetic energy as a 2500 lb vehicle traveling at the same speed, and four times the kinetic energy as a 1250 lb vehicle.  More importantly, it shows that any vehicle in the list will have 5.22 times the kinetic energy at 400 mph as it does at 175mph.

I hope these observations can be used to help formulate future structural requirements for our vehicles, regardless of the number of wheels.  It may also imply that we need tiered structural requirements based on the above.  Increasing structural requirements for all vehicles, regardless of weight and speed, would be a mistake, as it would certainly drive up costs of construction, and reduce the number of participants who would be able to compete.

I invite constructive criticism.

D. Thomas Borcherdt, BSME, P.Eng
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Offline JoshH

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2012, 11:55:08 AM »
I don’t have a dog in this fight either but I do feel terrible for the competitors that this could affect. I don’t particularly like the idea of excluding anyone that’s taken the time and commitment to build one of these machines.

In general most special construction vehicles that I’ve seen are done very well. The builders of these vehicles take the safety of their drivers/riders seriously and it shows in the thoughtfulness of the construction.

However, in rare occasions I’ve seen special construction vehicles that pass tech with all the required tubing sizes that are terribly fabricated. It still shocks me that the owners of these vehicles don’t recognize the problem and feel comfortable in these vehicles.

I think allot of people believe that increasing tube size is the way to make safer vehicles. This would in fact be true if good design and craftsmanship were not such huge factors in the strength of these structures. I would argue that no increase in tube sizing is a substitute for these two other factors. The problem is these areas are somewhat subjective where tube size is pretty definitive.

So will such a rule change increase the safety of poorly designed and fabricated vehicles? This isn’t likely. And to exclude owners of well built/proven vehicles to this end seems completely misguided.

I sincerely hope this is resolved in a logical manor at the next meeting.

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2012, 12:35:50 PM »
I believe the motorcycle streamliner guys are getting screwed on this matter.  But I don't believe the conspiracy theory -- that the SCTA is trying to screw and eliminate the MC guys.  Yes, there's always a rivalry going on -- our club included. 

But when entry numbers at lake events are declining, and SpeedWeek has to subsidize them, why would the SCTA try to cut their numbers?  It take a certain number of people that work to put on a salt week -- more for SpeedWeek than World Finals.  A lot less for WF with only two courses, but it's a money-loser, like the lakes, too.  And the only way to make up the deficiencies is have more entries.

Hopefully the board will listen to the arguments and straighten this out.  But calling them names ain't gonna help.
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2012, 01:27:37 PM »
I have no iron in this fire as I do not have a motorcycle streamliner and have not run at SCTA ……Yet!  Hopefully, this will make me an impartial observer.

Although I am a professional engineer with a degree in mechanical engineering, I have never practiced, nor am I qualified as a structural engineer, and it has been over 40 years since I graduated.  Therefore the observations that I make here are not intended to imply that current or proposed structural requirements are adequate.

.............

I invite constructive criticism.

D. Thomas Borcherdt, BSME, P.Eng


Thomas,

thank you for your great comment about this issue....you mention structual engineer......here I can help a little bit....half of my study time was structual engineering...

As said before....it isn't the the tubing size which makes a frame strong...it is the design how this tubes are put together....therefore are two mathematic laws.....

Cremona and Steiner....

Cremona is the law for frame (grid) design.

Correct designed to Cremona means nothing other than...to a "normal" design.....

that you get a double so stiff frame by the same weight or you need only half the weight for the same stiffness


Steiner is a math for the strength to the height of part....Steiner means.....that twice the height get you a strength increase in sqaure.

As an example....the height is 1 and the strength number is 1.......you increase the height to 2 the result of the strength is 4......

This is why you can drill a hole in the center of a double T profile without an affect on the strength...there to center line the missing material makes no different....

If you combine Cremona and Steiner in the frame design you get this strong and safe frame design you need without big diameter tubes.....

Ack Attack and Sam Wheelers bike are the best example....Ack Attack went over 300 when the bike crashed....nothing happens....Sam was above 350 when the bike went out of controll.....at the BuB....



Unfortunately the most engineers have never heard from Cremona...maybe from Steiner.....this two maths are one of the thoughest time at the University.....

Thomas, thanks again for your great explanation.

Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2012, 01:43:57 PM »
I would implore those who are voting in this cage change matter to make it a RECOMMENDATION for 2013 to give racers time to evaluate the heavier cage.


As you can see from the picture, there is no separate "roll-cage". The entire driver's compartment is also a part of the frame/chassis. Changing the tube size would mean that I had to cut off the vehicle behind the steering neck, and replace the entire structure to behind the firewall. Since the driver's compartment is built to fit me like a glove, the increased tube diameter would have to be projected outwards, resulting in a need for also a brand new bodywork. Essentially, I pull off the wheels, pull out the drivetrain and build a whole new vehicle.

Enough from me.

// Eva

Hi Eva,

you be right as you explained the frame from a motorcycle streamliner....in fact the "tube frame" of a bike streamliner is a kind of moncoque, do to this you just add the mechanical parts and the power unit.

the body panels are only to cover the frame....but if the fixing of the body panels is done in a clever way the strength of the frame can be very well increased....

This is the way how a plane is designed.....the frame alone is maybe not strong enough...but with right connection of the panels it works...

By the way....World Finals...there was some big eyes before the maybe very first real fast run on the salt......tech at World Final..before the TV showed up....unfortunately we couldn't buy enough tissues (napkins) to get the salt dry...

 
Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2012, 06:14:36 PM »
Thank you all for the info and help, it is all useful and interesting… My main problem is they have now taken a mindset that “a streamliner is a streamliner”! ! ! Yes I know, I know crazy…. They cannot see the dynamics of the 2 vehicles are completely different, Heck the dynamics of a crash are different even if it is the same vehicle crashing twice…. I cant seem to get this idea across to them…. Even with the facts that all motorcycle streamliners land on their side and most cars land on their tops…. Cars will take an impact on the top of the cage and bikes will take it on the side… Cars have appendages like front and rear ends that act as leverage arms that launch vehicles into violent crashes, bikes don’t…. Most bike ‘liner rider injury have occurred from riders coming out of the cage (Gullett, Hess, Allen) and absolutely none from chassis failure… Boy the mind can be a steel trap some times… Our only hope is if they can pull this rule for a year pending futher evaluation… Heck they voted in a rule for belly pans and rear bulkheads in roadsters and gave them 1 year before they enforce it because “it effected to many racers” They have had countless injuries because of roadsters lacking belly pans and this is just tinwork for them! ! ! Its not like that new rule outlawed any roadster or forced major structural changes like ours… 1 Year for tinwork and outlaw every bike ‘liner in 1 rules meeting…. Crazy…..

Offline dw230

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2012, 06:42:11 PM »
The proposed rule change for roadsters that you mention does not include belly pans. It is to enclosed the driver's cockpit from outside forces. If you are in a roadster class, Fuel, Gas, Street you must conform to the existing pan rules of that class.

Interestingly, I heard on Sirius/XM Sports today that the NFL is going to propose a weight limit on the players allowed to be on the field during kick offs and punts. Reading between the lines I see a problem with a little, tiny guy catching the ball and heading off at top speed. This little, tiny guy is then met by a big, massive guy. Maybe something to due with the mass vrs. inertia formula?

DW
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Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2012, 06:51:39 PM »
"Belly pan" or rear "bulkhead" whatever the terminology sorry.....  but did i get the fact straight? 1 year warning to roadster guys to add tin work?
kr

Offline saltwheels262

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2012, 09:14:43 PM »
… Our only hope is if they can pull this rule for a year pending futher evaluation…

I can agree with that.
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Offline dw230

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2012, 09:21:29 PM »
Yes, the one year advisory was a part of the proposal.

Big diff between belly pan and bulkhead, but moving on...

DW
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Offline dw230

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2012, 09:30:25 PM »
By the by Kent,

Your voting as the representative of your club at the meeting was noticed. The joking manner in which you continually voted the opposite of the room was not appreciated. While I will concide that the meeting is not well run, my fault, the attitude carried into the meeting is far from professional. We must remember that we are voting to improve the rules, promote entries and try to keep out of people's wallets.

The discussion about the tubing requirements for motorcycle streamliners does not seem to follow what I have written the proposals are put forward towards the goals.

Was your vote on each proposal the wish of your club's membership? I did notice that you did not have any notes.

If I cannot improve the meeting format, participation and professionalism I will defer to another.

DW
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Offline Nortonist 592

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2012, 10:45:41 PM »
Interestingly, I heard on Sirius/XM Sports today that the NFL is going to propose a weight limit on the players allowed to be on the field during kick offs and punts. Reading between the lines I see a problem with a little, tiny guy catching the ball and heading off at top speed. This little, tiny guy is then met by a big, massive guy. Maybe something to due with the mass vrs. inertia formula?

DW

Perhaps they could wear 1 5/8" roll cages instead of shoulder pads?
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