Author Topic: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners  (Read 78724 times)

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Offline SaltPeter

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #105 on: November 22, 2012, 03:26:52 PM »
Hey 8 old mate

No professionals in this sport, we're all back yard bodgers here. If you know a thing or two could let us know just type real slow so we can understand you.

Crocodile Pete from Downunder :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Offline Dr Goggles

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #106 on: November 22, 2012, 04:13:53 PM »
do I smell a rat-liff?
Few understand what I'm trying to do but they vastly outnumber those who understand why...................

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Offline Freud

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #107 on: November 22, 2012, 04:16:48 PM »
Goggles        + + +

FerD
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #108 on: November 22, 2012, 05:51:12 PM »
Yup -- I was thinking about the same but waited for someone else to say it first.  Thanks, Dr. G.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline Glen

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #109 on: November 22, 2012, 06:54:01 PM »
Look on the member ship list, name is there, I think he lives near ElMirage
Glen
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Offline Nortonist 592

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #110 on: November 23, 2012, 12:58:44 AM »
   and how many of you are actually PROFESSIONAL CHASSIS BUILDERS  and that is what you do for a living and have built numerous vehicles that have SURVIVED SERIOUS CRASHES  ???????????

I'm not but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.  So if you need any help give me a shout.
Get off the stove Grandad.  You're too old to be riding the range.

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #111 on: November 23, 2012, 07:17:42 AM »
 :cheers: LoL
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

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Offline JustaRacer

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #112 on: November 23, 2012, 08:43:38 AM »
  and how many of you are actually PROFESSIONAL CHASSIS BUILDERS  and that is what you do for a living and have built numerous vehicles that have SURVIVED SERIOUS CRASHES  ???????????

Professional chassis builders have not had a 100% success record, see SCTA, NHRA, SCCA, NASCAR, F1, etc, guys.  Even with a million bucks, you don't get a perfect outcome each time.

I've survived 3 potentially fatal accidents.  One was at 120 mph.  I have hundreds of stitches and 10lb of titanium in me. That doesn't make me an expert, it makes me a crash test dummy.  Not sure I'd like to up the ante, but I tell you it happens REALLY slow.  One trick for the MC guys is NOT to get up off the ground until a minute or two (perceived).  You think you are stopped, but you aren't and you go flipping through the air.







My doctor told me to go out and kill people.
Well, sort of.  He told me to reduce the stress in my life.

Offline 55chevr

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #113 on: November 23, 2012, 12:37:44 PM »
 Just who is    "8" ?

Offline Glen

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #114 on: November 23, 2012, 01:04:50 PM »
Joe, look at my post 109
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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #115 on: November 23, 2012, 01:51:27 PM »
Dean mentioned the old story about the 50s Indy roadsters being so strong that they could be crashed one day and running the next, with a new driver, and that the previous driver was killed because the chassis was too stiff. Actually if you happen to look at the 50s Indy cars you will see that "roll bars" weren't even used until the late 50s and then they were usually lower than the drivers helmet and had no fore and aft bracing. Also helmet technology was just starting to be explored and all of the drivers wore open faced helmets and things like seat belts were just starting to be used much less any kind of shoulder belts or Hans devices or roll cage shock padding or carbon fiber full coverage helmets. The drivers were not killed by the stiff chassis they were killed because their head was exposed to high levels of shock. We have discussed the idea of controlled crush zones before and I would ask anyone to define the loads that this concept would be designed to, to ensure that as the cage deforms to adsorb crash energy it does not also crush the occupant. If you look at off road trucks and WRC rally car chassis you will see the true state of the art in tubular chassis design and these vehicles are not designed to crush, they are designed to protect the occupant(s) from outside intrusions and keep the drivers head from seeing shocks that could be fatal. A properly designed SCTA cage should be built to be strong and stiff and prevent any type of failure that could be caused by the cage collapsing on the driver and it should have sufficient room for a Hans device and proper high impact padding to protect the drivers head and a proper seat belt, shoulder belt arm restraint and seat system to retain the driver inside the safe zone of the cage.

Rex
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Offline edweldon

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #116 on: November 23, 2012, 02:21:46 PM »
....What do you suggest we do then that is achievable with a non NASA budget?
Cheers,  Jon

Jon - I'm trying real hard to stay out of the technical discussion area here and stick to philosophy.  The best answer I can give is to carefully examine what has been proven to work in 2 wheel streamliner frame design (ack's posting is a start).  Then use that as a basis for your design.  The more you understand how and why it worked the better you wil be equipped to make the minor changes you need to make in that proven formula to fit your project.
Contrary to what most people think 99+ percent of all building work in our world is done that way.  We built an entire civilization by "copy and tweak".  We tend to forget that in our zeal to accentuate the creative accomlishments of the great inventors and builders of our history.
And this applies not only to physical things but also the great social and political structures of our world.
When there is great risk, material or human welfare, in making a change from the norm a deeper understanding of the hows and whys is called for.  When anyone chooses to ignore the need for knowledge to support a change, expecially one that is to become mandatory "code" and substitutes a political process to force the issue it is time for the people to cry "FOWL".
This applies to clubs as well as nations; anything that operates under a structure of rules.
 Kent (Reply #61 by 1212FBGS) stood up and spoke for many of the rest of us and his position prevailed.  A good thing.  There is much to learn from this.
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Offline Freud

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #117 on: November 23, 2012, 02:51:18 PM »
With as much as each side, and there are two sides to this, has at stake in this discussion it seems to me that there needs to be two studies

done. One major medical bill could be much larger than the amount of money invested  in an engineering study that would be much more valid

than the conclusion that either group would conclude w/o any engineering background.

If two studies seem too much spent on one problem......then just agree to share the cost among the people that this problem relates to.

Remember....racing is not cheap and this could just be one of the related costs.

The other possibility is that a college engineering project could be done for someone's advanced degree requirements.

The way this "discussion" is going a suitable conclusion seems unlikely.

I'd start with Ohio State Engineering school. They are involved and do have a realistic idea regarding what happens on the salt.

With the urgency that the SCTA has placed on this topic a request from them with some engineering school may more likely be heard

than the way it is now.

I've seen and fotograffed bike 'liner crashes and no fatality has occurred in them but it would be nice that when the inevitable crash occurs

the pilot would be capable of walking when it's all done.

There is a year to work on this and still meet the Rules Committee's time line.

Lets discuss this possibility rather than letting a layman's opinion be the basis for the rules change.

There is also the possibility that a totally different type of chassis could be used. Racing technology has progressed in

other forms of racing that has left a tube chassis in the archives. Hot Rod methods could be updated by newer materials and designs that

are used in many other racing venues. Indy cars and F-1 have been using updated methods for years.

If it's too expensive, just tell that to the wife of a racer that she has to attend to for the remainder of his life or that she takes

the children to the cemetery to visit him..

Get a study done.......................

FREUD

« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 03:05:02 PM by Freud »
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Offline Moxnix

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #118 on: November 23, 2012, 03:09:57 PM »
http://deltawing.squarespace.com/news/category/video

Scroll down to Nissan DeltaWing Road Atlanta Crash Video

I've follwed the DeltaWing car's development for some time, in consideration of a cycle car design.  The video clip from their website of the crash at Le Petit LeMans this year says something about the tub design.  The car was rebuilt and raced to 5th place the next day.  Didn't the Italian liner Gus-Gus use monocogue aspects in its design?

http://deltawing.squarespace.com/images/petit-le-mans-wednesday-testing-gallery/

Scroll down for stills of car wreck.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 03:48:57 PM by Moxnix »
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Offline edweldon

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Re: Tubing requirement change for 2-wheel streamliners
« Reply #119 on: November 23, 2012, 03:46:24 PM »
.......... A properly designed SCTA cage should be built to be strong and stiff and prevent any type of failure that could be caused by the cage collapsing on the driver and it should have sufficient room for a Hans device and proper high impact padding to protect the drivers head and a proper seat belt, shoulder belt arm restraint and seat system to retain the driver inside the safe zone of the cage. Rex
Rex - You and others are right as far as you go.  But the devil is in the details.
For one thing, by your statement, the transition to 1-5/8 tubing for 2 wheel streamliners would cause no harm other than throwing thousands of hours and dollars of past and ongoing construction effort into the trash heap.
What has generally been left out of this discussion is the character of impact events in a crash.  The stiffer you make the anvil and the hammer head the better.  But we don't want anvils here.  We want the chassis to soften the blow rather than sharpen it.  Here the workpiece is the driver, not a piece of steel.  But too soft a roll cage will deform either elastically, plastically or both and in the worst case rupture.  So a compromise is needed.
You workshop guys:  Look at all the hammers in your shop from the softest rubber mallet to the hardest ball pein hammer and think about why it is the way it is.  Every time you open a product package or a shipping package take a close look at it and think about the way it's designed.  Are you tuned into the idea that the real shock absorbing function an a car chassis is in the springs and pneumatic tires and that the shock absorbers are simply dampeners?

The following is for the engineer or physics trained folks among us.........
You guys who like myself suffered through some formal engineering education, especially the physics and calculus part: Were you as confused and suspicious as I was about the apparent dichotomy between energy and momentum? Or the equivalence of impulse and momentum?
Or the fact that a perfect sharp impulse (time=0) contains every frequency of vibration?
If your work is in the world of dynamics you know this stuff pretty well.  Please speak here.
If like the rest of us that kind of math is long forgotten and like me you add an experience based safety factor for impacts to your stress calculations and rely more on what happens on the test stand then understand why I try not to sound like I am any kind of expert.
I remember in the old days many engineering schools had a fun test project for all the mechanical engineers.  You formed up in teams and each team designed a box to hold a fresh egg.  They built it and dropped it from a high window in the engineering building onto a concrete sidewalk.  Build a box got you a "D", "C" if the box didn't break. "B" if the egg inside didn't crack.  And "A" if you mathematical analysis of what happened was correct.
Oh yeah, some other thoughts here.  Drag out your old metallurgy or materials science book.  Look at a stress-strain tensile test diagram for low carbon steel and consider where the most initial energy absorption takes place. (realizing that the elastic energy is given back to work in continuing cycles of vibration until finally dissipated as heat through some kind of dampening). 
Look in your strength of materials book (mine was Timoshenko, which dates me) at the subject of beam bending and especially column buckling under compression. Consider the effect of gussets on individual members of a roll cage
Note on the Mars Rover the balloons were full of gas.  Gases are incapable of sustaining plastic deformation.  It's entirely elastic.  Not also that a balloon flattens at the impact point slowing the time of impulse.  This is slowed and dampened even further if the soft surface of the ground is reshaped.  The dynamics of a "pencil rolling" streamliner have much in common.
Ed Weldon
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Featuring the modern miracle of mechanical refrigeration.