Author Topic: vintage 1650  (Read 4675 times)

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Offline p101

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vintage 1650
« on: November 03, 2012, 05:52:23 PM »


 Hello..

My question is how can a HD panhead ( 1200cc) run in the 1650cc class when it is only alout to bore +0.50 ?

salt regards Tom
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Offline fredvance

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Re: vintage 1650
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2012, 06:05:17 PM »
Cant. Has to be over 1350 to run in 1650 class
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Offline Stan Back

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Re: vintage 1650
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2012, 06:17:54 PM »
No such thing as a stroker crank in one?
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Offline p101

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Re: vintage 1650
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2012, 02:35:43 PM »
Hi.

I have seen records in the 1650cc vintage class done by a harley-davidson, not importent to me ,but if you take the biggest motor 80 cu and + 0.05 bore i end up with 1348cc ?
thanks for a nice forum.

salt regards Tom
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Offline ol38y

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Re: vintage 1650
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2012, 03:11:39 PM »
I believe you can take a vintage motor and bore it or stroke it to fit class. It doesn't have to be stock B+S as long as it's not in P class. JMO :cheers:
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Offline panic

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Re: vintage 1650
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2012, 11:08:58 AM »
There were no factory 80" panhead motors.
The 1200cc 74" (largest) panhead + .050" is 1243cc.

Offline p101

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Re: vintage 1650
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2012, 11:39:28 AM »
I know about the pan (1200), but biggest vintage HD motor is flathead 80 cu is  3,4375 x4,28125 = 79,46518 cu + 0,05 is not over 1350cc.
but if you can bore and stroke an vintage motor that would be the reason why the 1650 class.
 then you can run vintage but not producktion ?

I have a vintage knuckle case with 3 5/8 bore, will it be ok to use in V class ?

Thangs from Tom
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Offline panic

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Re: vintage 1650
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2012, 06:14:03 PM »
1937-41 UH/ULH:
3- 27/64 (3.421875) × 4-9/32 (4.28125) = 78.744" or 1290.4cc

For vintage, only the crankcases and heads (OHV) or cylinders (SV) must be vintage.
Your knuck case has hardly any metal left at the left deck; it's legal but seconds away from a grenade.

The class handicap discounts 1/3 or the displacement of sidevalve engines when considering class. A UH at +.050" is still only 1290.4cc since .050" is ignored as a rebuild.
Discounted by 1/3 to 860.3 allows it to run against 1000cc OHV motors where it is definitely not competitive. It could legally be as large as1499cc.
I've heard both yes and no on using the U/UL 3.3125" cylinders (+.050" free) with an FL flywheel set (3.96875") to destroke it to 1121cc to run against 750cc OHV motors. It's not likely to be competitive, but perhaps interesting. Development has a major flaw: no practical way to get the compression up.

Offline AHG

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Re: vintage 1650
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2012, 09:37:10 PM »
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Offline p101

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Re: vintage 1650
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2012, 02:44:21 PM »
Thanks for the reply. good reading Panic  :-)
Reading page 47.
 there are a chance i can use the case at my profile picture, the right side is vintage, and since a aftermarket left side dont ad more power it is ok ?
The heads are vintage but will be with 2 carburators.
The bore and stroke plan ? hmmm
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Offline panic

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Re: vintage 1650
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2012, 07:24:11 PM »
I agree that (with the original roller bearings) there is no power advantage to the replica cases, but that's not the only issue. You can ask the rules people, but I'm pretty sure the answer is no: both crankcase halves must be pre-1956, and (IIRC) of the same original design, and match the cylinders/heads.
I think a "traditional" plunge-cut dual port knuck or pan is legal if it's based on the correct casting: any knuck, and 1948, 1949, 1950 and 1955 panheads (see some differences on my site here: http://victorylibrary.com/tech/panhead.htm)
All the vintage OHV classes are tough for a H-D engine because of the Vincent and JAP.
bikes in 1000 and 1350.
Even de-stroked to 750, the pre-unit Brits put up a good fight.
I was once mildly interested in running a big 4-cam crankcase set with OHV upper end (which is a bolt-on), but they can invent rule changes faster than I can type. Oh, well.

Offline panic

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Re: vintage 1650
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2012, 07:36:40 PM »
The converted knuck heads I've seen all used a new port out to the left, horizontal, and parallel to the crank axis (and each other). The interior work to form the new bowl and close up the old port is generally not very clean, and very few look like they were flowed so there is definitely more power there. I don't think that's the best entry point, but it's difficult to do over.
IIRC the vintage rules say the carburetor must be primarily of motorcycle design, but evidently very little attention is paid to this because there is a H-D with a record using a Dell'Orto DHLA.
Bore and stroke is a puzzle, because the original rockers are both low ratio and heavy. De-stroking to raise RPM is going to need some re-work there (IMHO). Pete Hill made a knuck drag motor with the entire pan rocker box assembly on it (far easier to adjust an set geometry, higher ratio, can be purchased as a roller tip conversion from Baisley), may be legal since the pan parts are all pre-1956.
The shortest stroke commercially available TIKO is 3.500" (stock EL, but with the big pin). An EL just isn't going to like 7K rpm.
You have a compression problem due to dome intrusion, especially with small displacement. The dome volume and shape are much better with big motors. The fix for pan and shovel is to bath-tub the chamber (much harder with cast iron), and you're still stuck with the Jaguar/Chrysler vintage huge included angle (80°), so the chamber can't really be flattened.

Offline p101

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Re: vintage 1650
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2012, 01:53:46 PM »
thank you panic.

 good reading and ton of info,
 ill be back at BUB again with my knuckle in 2014, maby with a new plan,,,hmmm
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