Author Topic: Crankshaft hArmonics  (Read 8218 times)

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Offline SPARKY

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Crankshaft hArmonics
« on: September 03, 2012, 08:44:19 AM »
Does anyone out there in "Radio  Land" have access to computers/programs that will evaluate cranksaft hormonics.  I notice that a lot of early engs had what amounted to dual flywheels one on either end of the crank.  Inquiring minds would like to know--- how flywheels influnce crankshaft hormonics?  Especially how the gryo affect from the increased mass and diameter influnces it.  Just something that is spining in my brain that I can't get to go away.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 07:26:21 PM by SPARKY »
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Trouble

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Re: Crankshaft hormonics
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2012, 08:48:41 AM »
Crankshaft hormones are controlled by the Throttleroid gland.  There are medications now to alleviate the symptoms.

 :-D

Offline Tman

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Re: Crankshaft hormonics
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2012, 10:57:22 AM »
How do you make a hormone? DONT PAY HER! :-D

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Crankshaft hormonics
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2012, 11:21:04 AM »
Better switch to harmonics Sparky before we all get cliched out!  :roll: :roll: :roll:

Pete

Offline maguromic

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Re: Crankshaft hormonics
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2012, 12:43:28 PM »
Sparky, That is a complex program that I bet only a few crank manufactures would even have.  There have been some good stuff written about the subject before WWII, Practical Solution of Torsional Vibration Problems, Volumes 1,2,and 4, W. Ker Wilson, Chapman and Hall Ltd. and this is a good paper that might be available at your main library http://pau.sagepub.com/content/30/2/453.extract  Tony
“If you haven’t seen the future, you are not going fast enough”

Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Crankshaft hormonics
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2012, 03:11:29 PM »
  Sparky as you may or not know, I built and raced a Early Olds engine (designed in 1946) for my first nine years on the Salt.
  I did a lot of research on these motor's (1949-1964) while looking for parts and pieces to see how fast I could make one go.
  I discovered, amongst other things, that the 394 (introduced in 1959) had a four or five belt (I can't remember) cast iron front hub that weighed at least twenty pounds and was the first thing I wanted to shed in building my 394 based 435" motor.
  While looking for decent bearings (and its tough for a Early Olds), I found that in 1961 Olds went to a 1/4" wider front main bearing and I think I know why.............  keeping in mind that these were low rpm "stump pullers" it probably took a year or two for the factory to realize a "growing problem" with front main bearings.
  My 435" injected alcohol motor put out over 750 foot pounds of torque at aproximatley 3400 rpm and when I put 20% in it and hit the throttle, I immediately went for my first (and only, so far) loop de loop...................  arghhhhhhhhhhhh........... Bob
Bob Drury

Offline Glen

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Re: Crankshaft hormonics
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2012, 03:17:30 PM »
Gene Adams and Dick Harryman were the best Olds engine builders in the 50s & 60s.
Glen
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Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Crankshaft hormonics
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2012, 03:52:13 PM »
  Glen, along with Don Ratican, and Nick Arias jr. who gave me lots of advice during my effort to go faster.
  Unfortunatley I was never able to catch up with any LSR veteran's such as Tom Beatty (disceased) or Bill (or Bob?) Woodreff or Woodward (?) Who Geisler said ran one, and all of my research was basicly information gleaned from Drag Racers.
  It took me eight years to figure out why I could not make two consecutive runs without taking out the bearings until I discovered that the problem was "cross drilled" main journals, and if I am successfull in my current attempt to best the A/CFALT record with my Dart BBC, I hope to stick the Old's back in and start feeding it Nitro for breakfast (current best is 219 mph on straight methanol.
  Hope to see you all in October and wish the best for those of you racing at the WOS.
                                                          Bob
Bob Drury

Offline Interested Observer

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Re: Crankshaft hormonics
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2012, 05:13:51 PM »
Sparky,
In this day and age, any such evaluation would probably be done using finite element analysis.  There are any number of these general analysis programs available, but they would require a degree of expertise and experience to use productively.  Most likely, a 3-d CAD model of the crank and attachments (flywheels/dampers etc.) would be loaded into the program, automatically meshed, and then analyzed.  Alternatively, with the sophisticated instrumentation available today, one could probably detect the oscillations in a running engine, although it might be a trick to sort that out of the various torsional loads being imparted by the rods and pistons.

Rather than a full 3-d model, a simplified version using discrete approximated masses, inertias, and stiffnesses could also be done with FEA, or for that matter, by hand.  However, estimating the torsional stiffnesses of the various sections of something as convoluted as a crankshaft would be somewhat challenging, and in the end the results would be only as good as those estimates.  (However, this is how it must have been done prior to the advent of FEA.)

Another possibility is to do it experimentally, if all you want to know is the fundamental frequency of vibration--higher modes would be more difficult to determine.  This would probably require some electronic monitoring (accelerometer(?)) to discern the frequency adequately.  In effect, one would be ringing a bell and monitoring the tone.

Unless the engine is being bodily rotated, as opposed to remaining in essentially the same orientation, gyroscopic forces would not enter into it.  I suspect you meant the inertias of the flywheels etc.  In that case, the sizes and locations of the added inertias would most certainly affect the behavior.  A big flywheel at one end of the crank would effectively “ground” that end, and the crank would oscillate at a certain frequency with the free end showing the greatest deflection.  Sort of a rotary version of a diving board.  If inertia is then added to the front end of the crank, the zero oscillation “node”, which was at the flywheel, will move forward to some location in the crank, and the front and back portions of the assembly will oscillate in opposite directions about that nodal location.  And this frequency would be lower than the original.  Like holding either end of a dumbbell in each hand and alternately torqueing it about its axis.

So, by apportioning the inertias at either end, one can control where the node is and what the fundamental frequency is.  One doesn’t want the natural frequency to be near the operating frequency, although that may be difficult to achieve.   Enter.....dampers... to keep the resonance from getting out of hand.

Offline jdeleon

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Re: Crankshaft hormonics
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2012, 05:55:45 PM »
Sparky,

You might see if this fellow might pass along some info. He seems to have a good grasp in crank design and is very good with FEA.   Jon Schmidt  at
http://www.schmidtmotorworks.com

Javier

Offline JimL

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Re: Crankshaft hormonics
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2012, 06:36:20 PM »
Things got easier for the front main when generators went away, power steering pumps got smaller, a/c compressors got smoother and faster, fan clutches became common, and belts got skinnier with less elasticity (very big step).  Until then...took a lot of mass on the front of the crankshaft, which led to more front main to handle all the pounding and fluctuating tension.

Now we even have one way clutches on the alternator, so the front of the crank doesn't have to drag the alternator all the way down on each upshift.  No more "thump, thump" at idle from front main wearing faster than all the other mains.

None of this applies much to us, however....just old curiosity stuff.

JimL

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Crankshaft hArmonics
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2012, 07:30:35 PM »
maybe that is what I am dealing with Hormones---that would make a LOT of sense   :cheers:
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Trouble

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Re: Crankshaft hArmonics
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2012, 07:47:42 PM »
Sorry Sparky, it was just too easy.   :cheers:


Offline maguromic

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Re: Crankshaft hormonics
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2012, 10:08:31 PM »
Sparky,

You might see if this fellow might pass along some info. He seems to have a good grasp in crank design and is very good with FEA.   Jon Schmidt  at
http://www.schmidtmotorworks.com

Javier

Jon is one of the best in the industry and is responsible for the design of some of the fixtures that Bryant uses and was part of the Honda IRL program and the new Ford pro stock program.  He is always willing to help and a great person to deal with and will be the first to tell you how difficult a task it is.  Tony
“If you haven’t seen the future, you are not going fast enough”

Offline Buickguy3

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Re: Crankshaft hArmonics
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2012, 03:41:33 PM »
  While reading this I am trying to visualize what a super slow motion picture of a Buick straight 8 crankshaft rated at 125 HP and putting out around 650 HP would look like. Probably better to just stay ignorant. Another test on Saturday.
   Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I keep going faster and faster and I don't know why. All I have to do is live and die.
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