Author Topic: What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?  (Read 11948 times)

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Offline metermatch

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What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?
« on: June 30, 2012, 01:37:09 PM »
I have a few tech questions about the engine modifications allowed in

the Production Category, Coupe and Sedan class in my case:


The rule book says unlimited cams, induction system, and ignition.

It is my understanding that an alternator does not need to be run.


But, do I need to use the factory motor driven water pump and oil pump/wet sump oil system?


Could I use a separate electric water pump, and remove the stock engine

driven water pump?


On the oil system, could I replace the stock wet sump system with a dry

sump system?  If a dry sump is allowed, could I have the oil

pump/vacuum pump powered by something other than the motor?


Thank You all for any insight,

Jeff

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2012, 01:38:30 PM »
Yes you can do all those things.

Have fun!
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline Stainless1

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Re: What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2012, 08:41:51 AM »
and any exhaust, didn't see that on your list... the only thing that needs to be production is the outside body...
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline metermatch

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Re: What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2012, 11:44:53 AM »
So from what you have said here, as well as what I read from the rule

book regarding "engine swap" definition, as well as the "production

category" rules, It is correct to make the following statements:


The "production category" engine needs to be:


1) The engine production family for the vehicle used.  Example: if car

came with small block Chevy, anything that you could stuff in a small

block Chevy size dimension block/heads is OK.


2) Any manufacturer block can be used, as long as it is the same

dimensions as stock, same material, and all OEM parts could be bolted

on or to it in the same location.


3) Any head can be used, as long as it is the same dimensions as stock,

same material, and all OEM parts could be bolted on or to it in the

same location.  It must have the same number of valves, and same port

configuration.  The number of valves is obvious, but I guess same port

configuration means you couldn't take a SB Chevy head and turn it into

a 426 Hemi head?  But any porting of a factory type head is OK?


4) As far as the rest of the engine parts, ANYTHING goes?  Any crank,

rods, pistons, valve train, intake, fuel injection, carbs, ignition,

oil system, cooling system, exhaust, oil pan, timing cover, valve

cover, and cam.  As long as the OEM parts could bolt back on to the

block and heads used, and as long as my parts used would drop right in

a OEM block and heads?


5)  The engine does NOT need to drive any of its' normal auxilliaries,

meaning it does not need to drive the alternator, oil pump/oil system,

vacuum pump, water pump, or fuel pump.  The only thing the engine would

need to power from the combustion process is turn the crankshaft and

its' valve train and distributor, and send power to the transmission.


Clearly, I couldn't just add a big electric motor to the crank to help

power the car. (unless hybrid class),  but I was concerned that by

removing the parasitic drag of the oil, water, and fuel pumps, that I

was breaking a production class rule, taking away drag that a "production"

engine normally needs to drive.  Or that by using an external vacuum pump,

that I was somehow "adding" power to the motor, somewhat like adding an

electric motor to the crank.


Perhaps the answer to my question seems pretty obvious, but I am not sure if

the rules work by allowing me to only do what the rules SAY I can do, as

opposed to that I can do anything, unless the rules say I can't.  I

guess I need to learn how to read between the lines?  Or think more

like what I can get away with? (in a creative sense).

Thank You,

Jeff Follin

Offline dw230

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Re: What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2012, 12:03:27 PM »
Jeff,

You have the basics. Don't read into the rules what does not exist on paper. Ask questions, remember that any answer you recieve here is NOT official. Use section 16 in the rulebook to find the appropriate person who can give an official interpetation and document all answers. Email replies that you can print out and carry in your tool box are the best way to do this.

Good luck,
DW
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Alcohol - because no good story starts with a salad.

Don't be Karen, be Beth

Offline RichFox

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Re: What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2012, 01:21:19 PM »
Except I have not seen any electric oil pumps and don't know of anyone using one. You seem allowed to buy raised and spread port heads to which I don't believe stock exhaust mainafolds would bolt. But it is my understanding that you may not modify stock heads in the same manner.

Offline dw230

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Re: What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2012, 10:43:29 PM »
Rich is correct.

The oil pump is not an issue in Production car classes. The heads must be OEM, ported OK, and meet the criteria in the rulebook. Aftermarket heads are allowed but must meet the same smell test.

DW
White Goose Bar - Where LSR is a lifestyle
Alcohol - because no good story starts with a salad.

Don't be Karen, be Beth

Offline jlmccuan

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Re: What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2013, 08:22:32 PM »
The language pertaining to the heads just isn't sinking in to my poor brain.  Specifically, "Cylinder heads are limited to original number of valves and port configuration."  What is port configuration?  Reversing flow to make intakes exhaust and vice versa?  Splitting joined exhaust ports with a divider plate?  Increasing valve size?  Welding the floor and raising the exit point while keeping the size and shape of the exit flange the same?  Opening the port shape wider and/or taller?  Moving the manifold bolt holes?  Any and all of the above?

Pretty clear I can't add additional intake or exhaust valves, but what exactly is "port configuration".
Rabid Snail Racing

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2013, 09:32:07 PM »

Pretty clear I can't add additional intake or exhaust valves, but what exactly is "port configuration".


An example would be an A series engine in Mini Cooper.  The original port configuration is 2 intake and 3 exhaust, in a non-crossflow design.  You cannot change that out to an aftermarket 7 port crossflow head with intakes on the other side, even if everything else bolts up.

In a Y-block Ford, you could not reconfigure the intake ports from stacked pairs to a more direct line of flow.

Raising the ports, or reworking them is such a way that a stock manifold and gasket would not work would also take you out of production.  Zenndog is doing some experiments in these forums with a raised port Studebaker head, which if successful, would be ineligible for production.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Stainless1

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Re: What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2013, 12:25:34 AM »

Pretty clear I can't add additional intake or exhaust valves, but what exactly is "port configuration".


An example would be an A series engine in Mini Cooper.  The original port configuration is 2 intake and 3 exhaust, in a non-crossflow design.  You cannot change that out to an aftermarket 7 port crossflow head with intakes on the other side, even if everything else bolts up.

In a Y-block Ford, you could not reconfigure the intake ports from stacked pairs to a more direct line of flow.

Raising the ports, or reworking them is such a way that a stock manifold and gasket would not work would also take you out of production.  Zenndog is doing some experiments in these forums with a raised port Studebaker head, which if successful, would be ineligible for production.


MM, For GT, I would get a definitive answer for that one... Production, where engine swaps are not allowed, you have to maintain configuration... if you cannot see the port mod, it is allowed... like changing the floor...  but must look and fit production type parts... Accessory drives and parts are optional.
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline jlmccuan

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Re: What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2013, 03:12:20 AM »
I have heard some interpet the rules to be that a stock manifold must bolt up, but have yet to find that in the rule book.  Is there some second rulebook with things like this?  There is language that specifically allows dividing shared ports.  Does anyone keep track of written opinions or clarifications of rules committees on this stuff that is not spelled out?

Also, I see where some aftermarket heads are allowed in Classic Production.  Where do you discover what brands and models are legal?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 03:18:09 AM by jlmccuan »
Rabid Snail Racing

Offline RichFox

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Re: What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2013, 11:35:54 AM »
In your rule book you will find "Contact Information" names and Email addresses. That is where you will find your answers.

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2013, 01:13:48 PM »
The rule is specifically for the Production Class currently, GT allows engine swaps so this rule does not apply.
"Port configuration" in it's simplest form means that the port layout remains the same as produced. The small block chevy as an example would have a port layout of X I I X X I I X with x's being exhaust and the I's being intake ports. Being that no Chevrolets ever came from the factory with the SB2 type engine for example it would be easy to tell as the port layout is I X I X X I X I so even though the exhaust port layout looks similar to a standard small block it's not the same at all and it's obvious the intake port location are different.
Hope this helps.
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline Steve Walters

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Re: What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2013, 01:49:10 PM »
Dyno, Did you mean GC gas coupe, or, GT Grand Touring?  I'm getting farcled, again. :?   

Steve 
I've been from Bone to Blackfoot, but still just a Newbie here.

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Offline Dynoroom

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Re: What Production Class engine modifications are allowed?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2013, 02:22:44 PM »
Steve, unlike Gas Coupe, GT is considered a "production" class. However GT allows engine swaps so the rule as I outlined above does not apply to GT, or Gas Coupe for that matter.
The Classic classes might want to think about this to help keep cost in check, unless you want FR09's and DRCE's running around in the classic classes too...

FR09 is the current Ford Nascar engine that along with the Chevrolet R07 and DRCE III mentioned above have absolutely no, none, nada, production parts or production applications.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 02:24:57 PM by Dynoroom »
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...