Author Topic: Electronic traction control and ABS  (Read 9643 times)

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Offline rgn

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Re: Electronic traction control and ABS
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2012, 09:11:56 PM »
Some interesting inputs here.  You’re a good humored lot!  I’ve enjoyed reading the posts over morning coffee.

The TC ABS debate is a contentious issue.  It won’t be long now until all production super bikes have ABS fitted.  Hopefully it will be switch-able, but the day will come I’m sure when it just on, but probably tied into the TC maps.

I have read some information regarding the new generation abs systems for motorcycles, in testing (road race) with professional riders, especially in slippery (wet conditions) they are showing at least a second per lap improvement over non ABS.  With that sort of benefit, it won’t be long before we see it commonly in use at world level racing.

Riders aids have been around for many years, back in the 80’s we used to have a Vance and Hinse ignition box with 4 toggles for different ignition maps, so in adverse conditions we would retard the ignition and fit heavier springs to the slides of the CV carbs.  I would have been a lot easier to toggle a switch on the handle bar or plug the laptop in. 

Riders have been going over the handle bars since the beginning of elite racing, but since the advent of TC high sides have been greatly reduced.  Most of the riders carry on about TC, but none of them switch it off.  Rossi’s recent broken leg was a result of the Yamaha’s M1 TC management falling below activation parameters and him then getting on the gas un-protected, and getting flicked over the handle bars.

Bikes are the most unforgiving of things.

I have been reading about bike liners, and can’t imagine they would be an easy thing to ride.  They are long, heavy, and sitting in a seat for instance is going to take away a lot of the communication that is normally transmitted by the machine when you are sitting on it. 

Another thing that is said in relation to liners is it is not if it falls over, it is when, so why do they go down inevitably?  Watching ack-attack get crossed up after push out, sort of illustrates the point, and I can imaging a burst of cross wind at full boost as you are winding it out towards 300 mph would upset things a little?

Do any of you have GPS data acquisition systems on board?  How much wheel spin is experienced on a run?  Is it common to reach your theoretical top rpm, but be running at a slower than predicted measured speed?   Cheers!

Offline Jon

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Re: Electronic traction control and ABS
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2012, 11:17:58 PM »
Hi

Ask Rocky what he thinks of traction control, he came a bit unstuck testing it.
http://www.rocky-robinson.com/

Not sure if they still use it, I guess some others do.

Cheers
jon
Underhouse Engineering
Luck = Opportunity + Preparation^3

Offline rgn

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Re: Electronic traction control and ABS
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2012, 06:07:22 AM »
Hi Jon, I'm loving your liner build... if there is anything I can do to help, let me know.

I've read through that account, and honestly I'm a bit surprised that the team put their rider in harms way to such an extent.   Was that recently?  Is that a common state of course that you are required to run on?  Mud and water over track?  no parachute?  I'm lost for words to tell you the truth.

« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 06:09:44 AM by rgn »

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Electronic traction control and ABS
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2012, 07:53:11 AM »
my guess is that they will not test the same way

--this is an example of what happens when one gets fixated on one thing---ie did we get it fixed-

 instead of the bigger picture---what could be the unexpected consequences if we test it this way --he intentionally tried to induce violent wheel spin to TEST the system
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Offline javajoe79

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Re: Electronic traction control and ABS
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2012, 09:34:19 PM »
 I overheard the Speed Demon crew discussing percentage of wheel slip after they shredded their rear tires on a run last summer. Seems like I heard that 10% was too much :)    
  They run Motec engine management I believe. We used Motec on the road race vettes I built and the traction control works great. Launch control too.

 Here is a video of the car I built using Motec launch control.  This was cold tires, dirty pit lane, 600hp or so and pretty high rear spring rates with shocks setup for road racing. The data indicated a 0-60mph time of about 3 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBq25J9flQg

 So I guess it's out there in LSR but maybe not too common to use traction control.

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Offline rgn

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Re: Electronic traction control and ABS
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2012, 10:19:49 PM »
Nice video!  :-)   In a sport (LSR) where traction is such an issue, I can't see TC not being a benefit in both a performance and safety standpoint.  There must be wheel spin prior to a vehicle getting airborne... lol

I think in Rockies case in Ack-attack, the problem may have been that the TC was not taking into account TPS position vs wheel speed.  The system should have not have allowed 2/3 throttle at that wheel speed, and perhaps it was a rider mistake to have it positioned there?  

Testing and practice must be a problem for people running these large and very specific vehicles.  Cheers.  

Offline maguromic

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Re: Electronic traction control and ABS
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2012, 10:21:26 PM »
I think more and more cars are using traction control than one would think, and many of the guys /gals that are using them wont admit to it.  Tony
“If you haven’t seen the future, you are not going fast enough”

Offline javajoe79

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Re: Electronic traction control and ABS
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2012, 08:37:34 AM »
Also of note there is some cool stuff out there that can "hide" traction control pretty well even with older looking technology as far as ignition goes and of course if using certain fuel injection systems(motec) it can be done all in the programming even when you are not using the traction control option that they charge extra for. Motec even has a GPS based traction control that it seems would work real well on the salt given the straight line and amount of ground covered. But that stuff is $$$$$. Wish I could afford it for my own stuff.
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Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Electronic traction control and ABS
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2012, 10:27:35 AM »
There are no rules that prohibit traction control, go ahead and run it.
As far as not admitting it....... Why?   :?


    And to pairaphrase? Dan Warner........
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Offline desotoman

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Re: Electronic traction control and ABS
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2012, 02:37:07 PM »
There are no rules that prohibit traction control, go ahead and run it.
As far as not admitting it....... Why?   :?


    And to pairaphrase? Dan Warner........
                      You want to slow down to go fast?



There are drivers, and then again there are drivers. Not everyone is a gifted driver, so some might not want to admit they go faster with T/C than without it. I guess it boils down to ego's. LOL.

If traction control did not make the car faster, there are a lot of company's out there making some good money pulling the wool over peoples eyes convincing them to buy their products. There is a reason they are still in business. LOL.

JMO,

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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Electronic traction control and ABS
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2012, 01:26:52 PM »
With the price of high speed tires and with the horse power that some of the fast cars have I can't see a reason not to have TC. I think the Poteet/Main car uses a Motec controller and with an air shifted dog ring gear box they have to have some way of attenuating the shock of the gear shifts to prevent tire spin. The level of engine control that this type of control provides is mind boggling especially when you read about what the F1 guys are doing with their engine controls. Makes the programmer one of the more important members of the crew. Probably not a problem that Marlo will have.



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Offline rgn

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Re: Electronic traction control and ABS
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2012, 08:40:39 PM »
Thanks guys, I never thought of reduction of tyre wear as a benefit, but with the cost of race rubber, TC would soon pay for itself even if you only save 20%!

Power shifting is another area of interest, I'm sure HM Plant in the British super-bikes use it (electric solenoid actuator) shifts could be completely automated to shift point rpm (and as good as instantaneous).  I remember watching a u-tube video of John Renwicks Vincent outfit a while ago...old meets new!  His set up is self evident.  Love his workshop the flames, and this vid!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQIhqazUHg8

Offline Jon

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Re: Electronic traction control and ABS
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2012, 03:37:08 AM »
IMHO the main benefit of quickshifting in our sport is in keeping the velocity going in the intake system.
The time saving is insignificant but it sets you up to pull the next gear so much better.
It's one of the few things in my build that aren't as simple as I could possibly make it.

Cheers
jon
Underhouse Engineering
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Online Stainless1

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Re: Electronic traction control and ABS
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2012, 09:36:53 AM »
IMHO the main benefit of quickshifting in our sport is in keeping the velocity going in the intake system.
The time saving is insignificant but it sets you up to pull the next gear so much better.
It's one of the few things in my build that aren't as simple as I could possibly make it.

Cheers
jon

Jon, in an open bike you can stay tucked, so the quick shift thing is good... in closed bikes and cars it certainly makes the linkage a lot easier to figure out
Stainless
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