Australian Streamliner Bike Build

[Jon]

Sounds good Jim
I'm definitely with you on the idea of the system warning of potential fire then I manually triggering the fire system rather than giving the system control.

I think I've tracked down some 180C (350F) sense wire, won't know for sure for a couple weeks.

If I get it the plan is;
Run power to a big red light
Run the other terminal from the big red light to one wire of sense wire.
Hook the other sense wire to earth at the same end as the light.
Run the sense wire through the engine compartment picking up the likely places a fire would start.
Run the end of the sense wire back to the riders compartment and terminate both wires to a momentary contact switch.
Add to the daily check sheet "Test fire sense system", when the momentary switch is closed the big red light will light up, if not there is an open circuit somewhere.

This won't stop me catching fire but hopefully can alert me that $hit is happening and reduce the damage.
If I can activate the fire system before it burns a hole through the bodywork I am carrying enough foam to completely fill the airspace in the body at least 1.5 times, including the riders compartment so if the fire isn't in there it's going to be at least 2 times the engine compartment.

Thanks everyone for your help again.
jon

[kiwi belly tank]

Looks like I need to help you guys before you go spending swillions of $'s on stuff.
What I used on Betsy was house fire detectors wired to a light (not smoke detectors). The whole system cost about $15 back then.
They have a snap disc switch in them, also known as POF (not "poof" ) proof-of-flame switch. They are available in different temperatures & normally open or closed.
Here's a Google link.
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_rn=12&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=uNsIrkOFg5Zb9KkzK70xIQ&suggest=p&cp=10&gs_id=12&xhr=t&q=snap+disc+thermostat&es_nrs=true&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=snap+disc+&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46340616,d.cGE&fp=b3bda988c724673&biw=1264&bih=621

Let me tell you the story behind this.
Back in 90 (I think) Al was making a run, Betsy ran great to about 350-ish & then started dropping cylinders. It was dropping cylinders because the fire was burning up the mag caps & plug wires. Later when we looked into it, it was obvious we had a loose fitting on the high-speed return line so it didn't affect performance but sprayed the mags with fuel. It did a lot of damage.
After that mess I decided to put this cheap warning system in. Al was skeptical towards the idea & figured the engine temp would set it off.
The next meet, first pass, the light comes on, Betsy's running great, Al figures the thing is a $15 piece of junk & completes the shake-down run with a typical 370.
He get's out at the other end to find he had a small fire around the blower from a leak at the barrel valve.
That $15 worth of stuff is still in there today as Betsy sit's in a museum wishing Al & the guys would come back.
  Sid.

[Jon]

Thanks Sid

I misunderstood "Fire detectors" as a Kiwi interpretation of "Smoke detectors" and lead everyone up the garden path sorry.

Sweet as Bro.
jon

[Glen]

The two Vesco liners have the same system that Kiwi stated, I believe The Nish liner and others use it as well.

[kiwi belly tank]

Thanks Sid

I misunderstood "Fire detectors" as a Kiwi interpretation of "Smoke detectors" and lead everyone up the garden path sorry.

Sweet as Bro.
jon

It'd be ok if you didn't try n cheap-shot me while I'm helping you out!
Stopped by the P/O today & picked up the DVD's, thanks Mate.
  Sid.

[Jon]

Thanks Sid

I misunderstood "Fire detectors" as a Kiwi interpretation of "Smoke detectors" and lead everyone up the garden path sorry.

Sweet as Bro.
jon

It'd be ok if you didn't try n cheap-shot me while I'm helping you out!
Stopped by the P/O today & picked up the DVD's, thanks Mate.
  Sid.

Thanks Sid, it was my mistake of not reading the email properly.

It's in the "Oz Un Zid rools uf ingagmint" that we must cheap-shot each other at every opportunity.

Cheers
Jon

[Heliophile]

The fire detector idea is a good one -- another good one from this diary.  Thanks Sid for sharing the info.

Another idea to supplement   -- not replace --  the fire detector, one that I got from Tom Burkland, is to put one or more small thick polycarbonate windows in the firewall.  A fire should be visible reflected in gauge faces, provided line of sight can be arranged. 

Thanks also to y'all for the heads up on the Orange Aid material.  It sounds like what I need.

Jon, your body –your streamliner body, I mean  -- is beautiful.  There is one other shape I like better, but it is not good for a streamliner.  I notice that you do not have a fairing on the front wheel.  What is your thinking on that?

Larry

[Heliophile]

A thought occurred to me (two in one day – wow! ) regarding composite construction you were discussing.  According to books on the subject, composite aircraft are built using about 12 mm thick polystyrene foam with two layers of fiberglass in epoxy matrix on both the inside and outside surfaces.  Actually, carbon fiber is generally used instead of fiberglass; it is lighter and stiffer but not significantly stronger, and blocks electromagnetic waves, and is a lot more expensive.  Epoxy isstronger than polyester.  No fancy thickness gauge is needed when sanding the inside surface of the foam – a small nail or screwdriver pierced through the foam to the fiberglass on the outside works.  Foam divots can be patched using a mixture of epoxy and microspheres.  I wonder how much the panel will warp due to stresses in the outer ‘glass layer as the foam is sanded away.  Anybody out there know? 

I have seen claims that a 12 mm (1/2 inch) thickness of foam with two layers of fiberglass in epoxy (each less than 1 mm thick) on each side is as strong and as stiff as a 7 mm (1/4 inch) thick aluminum plate.  I am not sure I believe that, but it is surely strong, and very much lighter by a factor of several hundred.

Larry

[tauruck]

First, you can't use Polyester with Polystyrene. The resin disolves the styrene. From my experience the Epoxy/Polystyrene/glass works well and if done right very little sanding is required. Epoxy and chopped strand mat are a bad match so don't even go there. Carbon is stronger than glass of the same thickness definitely. If you want to remove the foam be sure to have enough material on the outside layer. This is where the carbon comes in, no warping. You don't even need to sand the foam away. Use Acetone on the foam and it's gone. My suggestion would be to put a layer of peel ply down on the foam before laying up the glass. That way, when you remove the poly foam all you have to do is peel the ply away and you're left with a nice even surface requiring no finishing. Whatever glass you use it better be the best quality you can get and an aero spec twill weave material will give best results. For the foam core example you described, a 163gr/m2 fabric on a 3 layer layup would be best with the correct resin system. Some Epoxies are way stiffer than others but probably more costly as well. Get the correct hardener for the application as far as pot life goes. Faster for cold weather and slower for warmer. Hope this helps and the panel is as stiff as 7mm Ally but not quite as strong in shear.

[Heliophile]

Sounds like good info, Tauruck.  I detect that you have experience – mine is limited and underfed, just comes from books.  Speaking of books, there is a list below, copied from the references page of my website.  Far and away the best of the lot IMHO is the one by Zeke Smith.  It covers issues Tauruck mentioned, things like material compatibility and peel ply and types of cloth and matrix, plus detailed practical advice on how to use them. 

Lots of composites info is on the Aircraft Spruce website at URL www.aircraftspruce.com.

Hollmann, Martin, Composite Aircraft Design, Aircraft Designs, 2003.
Hollmann, Martin, How to Build Composite Aircraft, Aircraft Designs, 1993.
Loken, Hal and Hollmann, Martin, Designing with Core, Aircraft Designs, 2003.
McBeaath, Simon, Competition Car Composites: A Practical Handbook, Haynes Publishing, 2000.
Miller, Thomas, A Practical Application of Lessons Learned Studying and Working with High Performance Composites, CreateSpace, 2009.
Smith, Zeke, Advanced Composite Techniques: Lightweight Moldless Techniques for the Aircraft Homebuilder, Aeronaut Press, 2005.

Finch, Richard, Welder’s Handbook, HP Books, 2007.
Sacks, Raymond and Bohnart, Edward, Welding Principles and Practice, McGraw-Hilo, Third Edition, 2005.

[manta22]

The fire detector idea is a good one -- another good one from this diary.  Thanks Sid for sharing the info.

Another idea to supplement   -- not replace --  the fire detector, one that I got from Tom Burkland, is to put one or more small thick polycarbonate windows in the firewall.  A fire should be visible reflected in gauge faces, provided line of sight can be arranged. 

Thanks also to y'all for the heads up on the Orange Aid material.  It sounds like what I need.

Jon, your body –your streamliner body, I mean  -- is beautiful.  There is one other shape I like better, but it is not good for a streamliner.  I notice that you do not have a fairing on the front wheel.  What is your thinking on that?

Larry

According to the rule book a firewall must be metal. I haven't heard of an exception for a polycarbonate windows in a firewall. 

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

[Jon]

Thanks Guys.

The fire detection is like a lot of things on this build, me using good ideas from someone else, thanks Sid.

Thanks Larry, I get that a lot ,     oh my bike , I'm pretty happy with the shape.
Not sure if your near the coast but i recon that a front wheel fairing is the same as having a fin on the front of your surfboard. Everything's cool while your straight, as soon as it gets some yaw it wants to yaw more, we (Woody and I) kicked a few non winners to try and get it to run straight before it came off.

Thanks for the composite info Mike, I'm using Marine Epoxy and reasonably heavy non woven Bi-direction (yes directional Giggles) cloth, I can't remember if its 400gsm or 600gsm, I can weigh a square metre if your interested.
I'll probably mess around and sandwich foam between the barwork to give the body a bit more anti flex.

I have heard from someone else about a windowed firewall, can't remember who.
I couldn't see through a window in my firewall anyway, can hardly see the firewall when I'm in the bike and the fuel tank will pretty much cover the backside of it. Fuel tank is there to give it maximum crash protection and to be close to the COG so it doesn't change my balance much during a run.

Cheers
jon

[Jon]

Another small piece of the puzzle.

A 120V 580psi 3way solenoid married with a 12v coil, I need around 450psi to hold the underdrive in low, low voltage high pressure pneumatic solenoids are a bit spendy.
Thanks to the interweb, a couple different ebay clearing house and Postman Rex this should do the job hopefully.


It looks like a normal on off solenoid but exhausts through the coil shaft when de-energised to let the springs engage direct.

Thanks Rex, I think the first few rounds are on me.

Cheers
jon

[Heliophile]

Not sure if your near the coast but i recon that a front wheel fairing is the same as having a fin on the front of your surfboard. Everything's cool while your straight, as soon as it gets some yaw it wants to yaw more, we (Woody and I) kicked a few non winners to try and get it to run straight before it came off.

Cheers
jon

Jon, that makes sense.  I think it is essentially the same problem as having a fin on the front half of the body.  In my mind safety must trump both performance and cost when feasible. 

I nevertheless wonder about the drag penalty of the partially exposed front wheel.  Data I have found (books by Hoerner, Hucho, Katz, Barnard, Tamai, etc.) seem to indicate that drag increases by 20 to 100 percent when a body in brought into close proximity to the ground and rotating wheels are added – but most data are for 4-wheel vehicles that are not fully streamlined.  The front wheel fairings recommended in The Leading Edge seem to me to incur the yaw moment problem. 

Do you have any information on the drag increment due to the partially-exposed rotating front wheel of a streamlined motorcycle? 

Do you know of a way to reduce rotating front wheel drag without incurring the yaw moment problem?  Perhaps some sort of shield or flow deflector? 

On a closely related subject, do you have any info on the drag coefficient of your {streamliner} body?  Hopefully including the effects of ground proximity and rotating wheels, which are always difficult to determine accurately from either the wind tunnel or CFD modeling.  It looks to me to be very slippery, maybe drag coefficient on the order of 0.12  (based on frontal area).  I am under the impression that this is a difficult target to achieve for a ground vehicle.  I hope to do as well, but 0.15 is probably a more reasonable expectation.

Too many deep questions in one post.  Sorry.  But the more we know, the safer we can be.

Larry

[Jon]

Hi Larry

It's exactly the same as having a fin on the front half of the body, sticking down to the ground just makes it more effective because its harder for the air to try and spill.

I do have some Cd numbers, the work that Woody and I did was focused on yaw stability rather than drag minimisation. The Cd numbers aren't too bad, shan't be throwing them up anytime soon.
Happy to share any opinions related to safety though.

The straight running drag penalty for the front wheel fairing removal was a bit, I may have been able to get away with it in ideal conditions but chose not to, most of the work was done at 6 degrees yaw which is quite an angle.
Lengthening the tail wasn't an option for me because of weird theories I have about rear wheel traction, if you have enough tail and your COG is further forward than mine a front wheel fairing may work on your bike.

I am a bit hardheaded about doing things myself but I believe some of the best money I have spent on my bike is getting the CFD yaw studies done.

Sorry if I sound evasive.
jon