Australian Streamliner Bike Build

[Glen]

The emergency crews in SCTA/BNI have two types of cutters to remove a roll cage. I have removed several 6 point roll bars using the Champion cutter in less then two minutes. The newest cutter is a Jaws of Life but I haven't used it. The thing is in 99% of the crashes the driver/rider is stabilized in the vehicle and then the roll bar is removed to allow the EMT's to put the driver on a shorty back board prior to lifting him out. There has been a lot of thought between the SCTA/BNI emergency response team, the fire dept. and the ambulance-EMT'S. Also in many cases body panels and other items must be removed to access the cage.
I have seen only a couple of crashes where the driver got out before the emergency people arrived. The other thing is a car that have stopped on it's roof is not something a driver wants to do is unlatch belts and fall inside the car.

always interesting watching a machine evolve. ,

"up yours too Bunji" , (last photo)

when Luckie first moved up here, i stored his Little Liner in my garage,, would often sit in it an set the world record, ,, often thought that if i was to build a liner, too always keep in mind that if a major incident occured, how difficult would it be for the medical attendants to extract the rider, look for ways that may make it that little bit easier,,,

[Dr Goggles]

Jon, put the inner cockpit liner in as soon as possible so your test fits are closer to real.  the extra 1 1/4 you enjoy all the way around gives ya a false sense of size. 
Looking great, don't think anyone will criticize your work in tech.

The easy way is to weld in diagonals as you go... 

I second that and I also have to remind you about "grey-out",my first drive at any speed on the salt had me completely unable to see because  the roll cage padding was buzzing the helmet, it's not difficult, it's impossible to see.

Make sure you get as much room as you're allowed in those areas....research what padding is available.

[Jon]

Thanks everyone for looking & giving feedback and advice.
I wasn't sure about starting a build diary after reading others, mine will be pretty basic.
I'm not that good at writing a good story, people can make grass growing sound interesting, I can make a sunset sound bland.

Dr Goggles; I found padding to fit 1 1/4" last night after searching for a while, is the buzz only while your resting or as soon as it touches? (don't feel special about being up the top, you posted while is was writing my reply and I can't scroll down the bottom of my post to edit it on my phone)
 

Stainless; I hope to get the tub lined as soon as my driving gear turns & I finalize the seat angle.

Peter Jack; I want to get the diagonals right into the corners, think I'm going to do it the hard way (& normally a couple times)

Max; I've been keeping up to date on your engine work, it's great to know your coming back again this year, hope it goes well for you.
I have a firesuit on the way, still trying to source a helmet, I'm wanting a Snell SAH2010 one with forced air, probably a bit of overkill but I don't want to buy one and have a rule upgrade make it useless.
I "think" I can see, I live opposite a big wall of a shopping centre, when I put the table together I sighted along the table and there's a line on the wall at horizontal from the table, that's my test mark, if I can see that I think I'm ok, I have a front wheelwell mocked up out of MDF.
I'm using a 23" tyre, I couldn't find any 21", I've been told they've been dropped.
Visibility does worry me some, as you said I'm going to be looking through the screen at a shallow angle.
I haven't found a maker for my screen yet, I've been told there's a company that makes screens for kit planes and stuff about an hours drive away.
Must remember the duct tape and the sun thing, thanks for comment on aero, it's all just thoughts and BS until I give it a run.
I'd like to get some CFD yaw stability advise but it adds up quickly, probably not as quickly as redoing the whole thing though.

StWheeler; thanks for that, how is Sam's engine upgrade going? He was kind enough to answer some questions I had about steering lock angles a year or so ago.


Rex; thanks for that, think that's what I'll do (won't be as pretty though).
Recon I'll cut and tack all the diagonals in and when I start welding it up remove them in pairs, weld the main tubes and then tack the diagonal back in and weld the cutoff part of fishmouth back.

Glen; I'm going to fully sheet my tub and rollbar section, the back will be the firewall, is it still possible to cut the hoops off, not hoping to use your services but noone else does either.


Thanks
jon

[Dr Goggles]

Insert Quote
Thanks everyone for looking & giving feedback and advice.
I wasn't sure about starting a build diary after reading others, mine will be pretty basic.
I'm not that good at writing a good story, people can make grass growing sound interesting, I can make a sunset sound bland.

Dr Goggles; I found padding to fit 1 1/4" last night after searching for a while, is the buzz only while your resting or as soon as it touches? (don't feel special about being up the top, you posted while is was writing my reply and I can't scroll down the bottom of my post to edit it on my phone)

From what I hear it really depends on how well isolated things are. For us there is no resting, it starts the moment you touch the padding.Phone?

computer?

[Jon]

Then I have to leave my cup of tea and walk upstairs and turn it on, plus I haven't finished putting stuff away and sweeping before I restart my lifelong study on the angle of repose of stuff I put down while I'm trying to build something

You recon it's coming from motor/driveline or from the ground?
I'm going to have about 1" of compression & 1" if rebound travel each end.
The motor is solid mounted though and is going to have to contribute to frame stiffness, there's not enough room to run diagonal braces past it.
Think I'm going to run into the top motor mounts from both ends with diagonals.

You sure are modern in Victoria, those models haven't come out in Qld yet.
It's not only cream that floats to the top  


jon

[Glen]

Jon regarding the plating on the cage to the frame if the plate is welded all around the top rails to the loops it is very hard to remove the cage. Myself if I was building a new car or modifing an old one I would use the bolt on roll bar cover like the NHRA has on the top fuel and funny cars. They can be removed quickly with a couple of wrenchs and still give the driver the protection needed and the Emergency people access to the cage.

[Jon]

Thanks Glen, my full drivers compartment will have stitch welded on skin.
Inside from midrail down in the seat area, outside from midrail up on the head shoulder area and midrail down on the feet leg areas.
Firewall will be welded to the back of cage with a couple small humps to let shoulder harness straps go around a cross bar.

Another day with a couple more tubes.
From the front wheelwell looking back;


Cross at the firewall will have to come out again to allow welding of main joins first.
The cross above the engine will be cut later to fit flange & bolt connectors so it can come out to pull the motor, does anyone sell these in 1 1/4" or am I going have to make my own?


Side view;

Would like some opinions on the diagonal brace running up from the bottom of the main hoop please.
There isn't room to run it all the way to the rear hoop past the motor, it will intersect the front engine mount plate, thinking the motor should help tie it into the rear hoop.

Thanks
jon

[Peter Jack]

Jon, could you use bolt on plates to add stiffness around the motor. They could be installed toward the outside of the tubes and still add significant strength.

Your build is looking really sweet!!! 

Pete

[Kansas Bad Man]

Hi Jon, it's me again.  I've just read all the posts up to this point, and I went back to the picture of you sitting in the cockpit area.  I mentally drew a line from your eyes forward on a parallel with the upper horizontal 1 1/4" frame rail.  It appears that you're looking at your hands, and your knees are slightly above that.  If this is your riding position, you WILL NOT be able to see out of the liner.  Your hands on the steering should be no less than 6" below the eye horizontal plane.  Your knees should be below that by another couple of inches.

I couldn't quite understand the dimples you suggest to put in your fire wall for shoulder harness seat belt brackets.  The two shoulder harnesses must be bracketed, drawing a perpendicular line from your eyes straight down, and bolted below the seat plate as close as you can get to that plate.  Your shoulder harnesses are bracketed a goodly distance down your back from your shoulders.  Locating the bracket at shoulder height to the fire wall won't work. 

Steering: You mentioned you talked to Sam Wheeler about lock to lock on stop adjustment.  That's really not important.  The important thing is center steering.  The king pin angle of the center steering should be set at 42o.  Don Vesco told me that 20 years ago, and I've used it ever since, never had any indication of a front end wobble.  The steering ratio, handlebar to front wheel, should be 4 to 1.

Another guy who built a real small liner as of late, is another fellow running a Vincent.  His name is John Renwick.  He built and tested the liner in England on an airport runway.  He reported no problems.  When he got to Bonneville, suited up and tried to make a pass, he couldn't see out of the cockpit.  Couldn't see over the nose, and couldn't steer the thing.  We swapped fire suits, as he thought my rider's fire suit would give him more room.  That didn't work.  They chopped the nose bump off for suspension clearance, duck taped the hole up.  That didn't work.  They made extension brackets on the rear swing arm to give the liner more of a tilt forward.  That didn't work.  Finally they had to remove the canopy totally, and on my advice used a fixed location on the mountains and pointed the liner to that point, as the salt was only visible some three or four hundreds out.  This would be the salt directly in front of the bike.  That worked, and they made a run. 

Sorry about some serious discouraging remarks, but that's the way I see it.  Only trying to help.  If you go to my website www.vincentstreamliner.com click on build diaries there's a lot of info there.

                   All the Best,
                          Max

[Stan Back]

Now mind you this is a roadster guy talking -- this may not apply.  Last year at El Mirage we had to move our shoulder belt attachments twice to get them in conformance.  It ended up that they are almost horizontal to the ground -- and comply with the manufacturer's instructions of being 0º to -10º to horizontal.  I think if you watch the video of Danny Thompson's Mustang crash, he had them much lower that just allowed his upper body to go forward more easily.  (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

[Jon]

Thanks for the feedback guys

Peter Jack; Good idea thanks, will see how it looks in that area after I get the motor and swingarm mounted.

Max; My feet end up a bit further forward than that, I'll do a bit more work on that area so I can get them in the right spot, dummy up the seat back a bit better and put the mockup wheelwell in and post some more pictures.
With the seatbelt I plan on running round the rail ends on the shoulder and straight ahead crotch strap, still not sure on the hip and underleg straps. When I get back to work I will print a picture and mark up where the belts are going to run.
How much lock to lock do you run? I'm setting up to run 10 degrees either side, a bit less will let me take my feet further forward again and drop my knees more.
I was planning on running 2:1 steering, I will put in another couple of holes to try different ratios.
I've read your liner build diaries, as you say lots of good info there, that's why I appreciate your feedback and opinion.

Stan Back; the seatbelt requirements for me will be the same as you i would think as the bike liner belt section just refers to the car section, it would have been hard yards changing your mounting points at the lake?




Do most people have their seat back straight or curved?
I was thinking to keep it as straight as I could so that the harness held me against it, putting more of a roll in my back will move my but back slightly for the same head position, which drops my knees.


Thanks for looking and saying it like you see it.
jon

[Kansas Bad Man]

Eagerly waiting for the drawings.  I've always said, "Where there's a will there's a way."  Remember, when you run a rubber tire on the front, you'll have to have a scatter shield.  A steel bulkhead would probably work.  If your feet are forward of the tire, and it sounds like they probably are, that's going to take a little work.  After the year that Sam went 355 mph and blew out his front tire, he had a problem that there were no other tires that size available.  He called me up and asked how wide the Goodyear was that I was running when fully inflated to 110 lbs.  I gave him the measurements.  He wasn't happy.  Too wide for him to get his feet in there.  I was running a 4" wide, 15" rim.  We talked about if he went to a 3" wide could he make it work.  He decided to go with an aluminum front wheel.  The first wheel didn't work.  He redesigned it, and it appears that he now has one that is working.  Three years ago I built an aluminum front wheel, haven't needed it yet.  Maybe someday. 

You talked about your helmet, saying you were going to buy a ventilated helmet.  I'd suggest that you not do that.  Try to keep the outside dimensions as small as possible. 

You asked about the seat, whether it should be formed in a curve.  Most definitely.  A problem that you'll run into, which we all run into, is when the full face helmet buries the bottom part of itself into your chest when you tilt your head forward to see out of the thing.  The curve in the seat helps a lot there, and like you say, it'l scoot you further back and lower your knee height.  You are for sure going to have to get your knee height down, your head up higher, and your hands down further. 

Your seat belt should be designed so as to pull up on straps to tighten.  I had to build two custom roller straps that fasten to the frame at the bottom by the rider's hip. 

                       

[wobblywalrus]

My bike is a modified partial streamliner and I have learned a few things that might help.  First, is to build in extra clearance around the wheels to accommodate future changes in wheel and tire sizes.  I do not have this and it is a source of trouble.  The limited clearance narrows down the tire choices I have for rubber with high speed ratings.

Second, give yourself a reasonable amount of room for scratching itches, fidgeting, etc.  A fellow gets wider and stiffer and it is hard to fit in something that was a tight fit when a person was younger.

Third, set up the engine mounts with plates and spacers so a variety of motors can be fitted.  The Norton Featherbed frame is an example.  There must been dozens of different engines fitted into those frames over the years.  My setup can only run one motor.  The frame bolts directly to the engine and this is a big handicap.  

 

[Jon]

Thanks.

Max: I'm running Goodyear D2283 23x5x15 tyres both ends so it's pretty big when trying to fit it in and see over.
Based on feedback to a question  on tyre growth I asked a while ago the top of my fender is 26"; 23" of tyre + 1" of compression suspension travel 1" of growth +1" of jon you messed up your maths again.
Its pretty wide by the time I allow for side clearance between the tyre and yoke and for the 10 degrees of steering lock.
Yes my feet are up beside the wheel, a few inches in front of the axle.
I will put some curve in my back when I mock up the seat next, just been using a straight board.
I'm going to get Strouds to make me some belts when I get the lengths sorted, he will recertify his belts if they're still good.

Wobblywalrus; I've read and been keeping up with your thread, nice mmetalwork skills, how is the screen going?
I'm running a LSR car tyre so hopefully I don't have much trouble with it.
It is a pretty snug fit, will be my incentive to keep the weight off.
I'm welding in plates with spacers for the front mounts and tabs for the back mounts, any motor upgrades will involve a bit of microsurgery with a cutting wheel.



Pic of front wheel mounted and inflated to 70Ppsi;

I was planning on shaving it on the shoulders to get a bit more radius but think I will run it as is.


Cheers
Jon

[Jon]

Got front wheelwell cut, shaped and tacked up today;


Being not much of a sheetmetal worker I made a wooden form;


Drilled a hole in a piece of offcut from my build table, locked a clamp bolt down on itself on my mill/drill table, sat the piece of offcut over the bolt and drilled a heap of joining holes in an arc.
Went to local hardware & got a 25mm rounding router bit and dressed the edge.

After cutting the 2.5mm sheet I drilled a hole in the centre of it and slit into the edge of the steel every 50mm then just shaped it with a hammer.

Put a slight bend in the centre band every 25mm as I don't have aroller and tacked it together.



Front view with helmet where my head ends up;


View from where my eyes end up;

The wall is 40m (yards) away , horizontal with my build table is about 1/3 of the way up the vent (grey square)

No sit in shots as I'm home alone.

jon