Quickchange interchangeability (large "Champ" type)

[edweldon]

Can somebody help me figure out how to piece together the parts for a "Champ" quick-change center section for the Golddigger lakester?  When Doug King built his modified roadster he cannibalized parts off the Golddigger lakester including the Halibrand Champ center section and side plates which fit the shortened Ford passenger car banjo rear side axle housings that came with what I bought.  So I'm trying to figure out how to piece together a new center section.
From some research I've learned that there were 11 and 12 bolt center sections.  Also that there are special side plates for those Ford passenger car axle housings are pretty rare, especially if you want ones that are not broken.  I've seen indications that those side plates were made for both 11 bolt and 12 bolt patterns.  Is
I've also learned that besides Halibrand, Winters and Frankland there were a bunch of other that made these rear setups including Jones and Franklin.
My immediate questions are:
1. Do they all have the same internal dimensions following the 39 Ford 3/4 ton truck rear end form factor?  In other words will a ring and pinion or spool from one fit the others?
2. Did some of the manufacturers reinvent things like ring/pinion dimensions, bearing mountings, change gear parts to different dimensions?
3. Who did 11 bolt and who did 12 bolt side plate mountings?  Who did both?   
4. I've seen indications that those side plates were made for both 11 bolt and 12 bolt patterns.   Is one likely to be harder to find than the other?
5. Does or did anyone ever make a ring and pinion ratio lower number (like 3.78 or 3.54) than the common 4.11?
6. Did anyone besides Halibrand produce a slider version?
I've rummaged around on the internet including the various manufacturers sites, HAMB and the old posts here and have not yet found the answers.  In the street rod community the tendency seems to be to either find/buy a complete rear and avoid getting into the complexity of it all.  I think this has all been well illuminated among the "roundy-round" folks.  but I hardly know where to start there.
Any help will be much appreciated and will likely safe me some false starts.
Thanks,  Ed Weldon


 

[maguromic]

Don Ferguson had made some taller ring and pinion gears, I think in the 3.30 range.  But I don't know if they were for the champ or V8 style quick change.  If you haven't talked to these guys yet you could try them  http://www.tigerrearend.com/  Tony

[Tman]

Ed, you should also contact my pal Jeff Yokum aka flamedabone on the HAMB, he has posted the ins and outs and will be  a huge help.

[38flattie]

Winters makes a slider.

Most pieces interchange between the Halibrand, Frankland, and Winters Champ style QC's.

Do you really need a 3.78 or 3.54 ring and pinion? With the 4.12, you can go clear to 2.19:1 gears.

[Joe Timney]

Ed,
Give me a call at the shop and I'll try to help you. Winters does make an adapter for their champ style center to passenger car steel bells.
302.378.3013est
Or you can call Nick or Ken at the Hot Rod Works at 208.463.1068. We work closely on this kind of stuff.

[edweldon]

Lotsa good info.  Many thanks, guys.

Maguromic -- Thanks for the tip about Don Ferguson.  I'm well acquainted with the Fergusons due to our common interests in Arduns at Bonneville.  I'll check with them to find out if their source for low number ring/pinion sets is still viable. 
Interesting to know about the Tiger product.  They look pretty committed to the market. At this point I'm trying to keep the rear end investment within my limited budget; so a complete new QC setup is a bit beyond that.

Tman -- "Jeff Yokum aka flamedabone on the HAMB" is a good lead.  I'll go search down his posts and then try him on whatever questions I have.

38flattie -- Good to know Winters makes a slider.  That's probably where I'll go if I'm ready to buy new hardware.  But knowing that Joe Timney is a dealer for them will determine the path to such a purchase.
So most of the parts interchange.  Good! That's a data bit good enough to lower my risk of buying used pieces to a tolerable level.
My interest in a lower number R/P is due to the fact that it will make the speed spread between the different available change gear ratios closer.  That will make each step to a higher speed a bit easier since there would be more steps.  When you get up around 200 with 28" dia tires and a 4.11 R/P the available change gear ratios make the steps pretty high.  A tall step begins to look like the "wall".

Joe Timney -- Thanks for the tip on Winters sideplates.  I'll try to reach you tomorrow to find out about their price and availability.  Buying these things when they show up on ebay is a bit risky since a lot of them get broken.  I saw several such at the big West Coast Turlock swap meet in January.  The cracks weren't very visible at first.
I'll keep the Hot Rod Works contact info close for when I'm ready to ask some specific questions.  I don't like to waste the time of the professional folks whose time is spent working so they can buy groceries.

Winters is starting to look like the best bet for new hardware.  However I don't want to overlook  Speedway Motors as another source for parts.  I received a very lengthy private email from Tom Burkland on this subject which I will reply to directly.  Tom mentioned John MacKichan at Speedway and their ability to deal with quickchanges.  Tom gave me some interesting info on dealing with high speed application of quickchanges which I hope he will share over here.   Pretty much beyond where I expect to go.  Life for me is a bit short for that trip.

 I doubt if I will be able to muster the resources to run the Golddigger much over the low 200's, especially if I continue my focus on Arduns.  Besides, there are a lot of questions in my mind as to just how stable that platform will be at much higher speeds such as might be achievable with a modern V-8 race motor.

In the first year or two of running I don't expect to put more than about 350hp through the rear axle and even that's a stretch.  So if used parts off ebay go together and turn OK when put together I think I'll be OK.  Still, I don't want to make any more mistakes than I have to.  Especially since this is a budget project where I need to put available resources, both time and money, where they will do the most.  I've seen enough of Arduns to believe that 800 HP on fuel is possible.  Whether I will get there is to be seen.  But that trip will certainly need pretty good hardware in the drive train.

Thanks Again for your tips so far.  Please keep them coming.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who will use this info.  …………….Ed Weldon

[wheelrdealer]

Ed:

I found the people at www.motorstate.com to be very helpful. Winters referred me to them when I was looking for bearings and seals. I found them to be helpful, fast shipping and reasonably priced.

Bill

[fastman614]

I regards to gear ratios, Winters make a "champ" rear end assembly that they call the Xtremeliner.... It is equipped with a 3.08-1 ring and pinion. The online catalog shows that a 2.00-1 ratio is also available but requires a special differential/gear carrier....it would be my guess that it has a very long offset outwards  in order to accomodate a pinion of the diameter that the gear set must have....

Their catalogs are all available online in pdf format at wintersperformance.com

[Bob Drury]

  Fastman, the center carrier section is 4 3/4" wide on the 3.08 center section which is 1" wider than the standard heavy duty rear center section with the 4.12 ring gear.
  Both use a 12 bolt 10" ring gear and the cast side bells appear to be the same.                         
                                                                Bob

[fastman614]

Bob....thanx... Interesting explanation about the width... I was wondering about that very thing....

In the new car (the one that is going to be diesel powered) we have a champ quickchange in it... and my brother procured a set of gears from Fergusons with a ratio in the mid/low twos..... we were looking at what the offsets will have to be and make something.... like a spacer and a special bearing carrier for the opposite side in order to use the gears...but you just got me thinking.... maybe Winters' special carrier will help out some.....

[Bob Drury]

 Fastman,  While normally I would recomend you call Joe Timmey (who is one of us), due to the recent loss of his Son, I would recomend you call Winters and speak to "Beaver" who is the head errr..... Beaver.
                       (717) 764-9844        Bob
p.s.  while I realize that open vs. spool vs. posi is a debate amongst us racers that will likely never be agreed upon, for my 120" Studebaker Beaver persuaded my to install a TrueTrac gear type "posi" and I am really happy with it.
  The only time I have spun was with a 9" and spool.
  Last year at Speedweek and after the rain I had the car sideways enough in first gear that my crew said they could read the numbers on the door.
  I lifted the throttle, put just a slight amount of counter steer in it and it miraculously snapped around straight.
  I would like to say it was great driving (of course) but I don't think I could have saved it with the spool.