Author Topic: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?  (Read 35988 times)

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Offline BoredAndStroked

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Re: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2012, 10:39:57 PM »
This is why you see multiple return lines on real race motors.......  :-D

Mike, you REALLY know how to hurt a guy! :cheers:

Heck, we're going to find out shortly whether we have a 'Real Race Motor' or not . . . can't wait to get this old girl on the dyno!
Member of FlatCad Racing Team - 2011, 2012
Goal:  Have fun, make friends, be safe - learn as much as possible, contribute when I can and hopefully get in the books!

Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2012, 12:37:48 AM »
Bob Drury- how many quarts of oil do you typically run in the 28 quart tank?
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Offline Bob Drury

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Re: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2012, 01:18:07 AM »
  Jack, my tank is actually a nine gallon tank, and I run seven in the system.
  Keep in mind that the tank is in the rear passenger seat area and that I have three AN-16 (1") lines that are over six feet in length running to and from the pump.
  The five scavenge lines and various lines to and from the filters add up to over twenty five feet of AN-12 (3/4").
  Then add the six quarts held by the two accumulators, three quarts held by filters and probably at least three quarts or more in the pan and upper lifter valley (which is sealed from draining down on the cam and crank).
  Add it all up and you can see why I run so much oil.
  The worst part is that I run methanol and up to 25% nitro, neither of which is petroleum based.
  This causes severe dilution of the oil (along with low tension piston rings) especially during warm ups.
  For this reason I preheat the oil and engine water and try not to let it sit at idle for long periods of time.
  After two passes, I have to drain it all out and pour in another seven gallons.
  I run five gallons of 50W Torco or Valvoline race oil plus two gallons of Royal Purple 10/40 Synthetic which I have experimented with and sems to combine and not seperate.
  I tried the same experiment using Valvoline sythetic  with Valvoline race oil and it turned up a froth that has sat in a container for two years and is still a murky mess.  I would run straight 50 or 60W synthetic if I could afford it, but as it is , each oil change is about two hundred bucks.

  Incedently, one of the advantages to running the accumulators which are precharged with  a air bladder system, is that after the initial fire up, the six quarts is held in place by electric solenoid valves and Before startup the next day I open the valves which prelubes the engine so that I don't have to remove the dry sump belt to prime the motor.
  Oh, and one more thing.....  I have almost as much money in braided hose and fittings as in the pump itself....... Bob
Bob Drury

Offline vintagehotrod

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Re: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2012, 12:45:52 PM »
I allways pump threw the filter, system one is my choice, canister filters are designed to be on the presure side. system one offers 3 or 4 different micron filters to meet your requirments.

Offline 38flattie

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Re: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2012, 12:51:39 PM »
Dammit John, you're supposed to take MY side! Lol! :-D

Thanks John, that's the way we'll probably plumb it.

Dale, I don't want to hear it! :-D

« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 01:03:31 PM by 38flattie »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2012, 02:24:41 PM »
80 micron is .003149. That puts the filter in the "birds and rocks category". All particles cause damage. It's the size that matters.
The larger particles gouge chunks out of your expensive parts, the smaller ones polish (wear) them.

6 micron = 0.000236 That's a filter.
Restriction is a function of filter size and area. If you think you have a restrictive filter then a larger area is required, not a larger opening.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
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Offline vintagehotrod

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Re: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2012, 03:27:14 PM »
blown injected flat Cad on fuel , oh yea , cant wait. I will have a psycological specialist on site to make sure you have a sound mind before we fire it up. and maybe a little kitty litter :evil:

Offline 38flattie

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Re: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2012, 03:35:43 PM »
John, everyone that know me, knows I'm certifiably nuts!

Kitty litter might be a good precaution, though, if things get out of hand!

Oh, and while I'm there, I need to chat with you about the next one- a procharged blown, 12 port, injected, 322 Jimmy on fuel!
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2012, 04:05:14 PM »
80 micron is .003149. That puts the filter in the "birds and rocks category". All particles cause damage. It's the size that matters.
The larger particles gouge chunks out of your expensive parts, the smaller ones polish (wear) them.

6 micron = 0.000236 That's a filter.
Restriction is a function of filter size and area. If you think you have a restrictive filter then a larger area is required, not a larger opening.


Dean, you miss the point. it's an "inspection" filter. I prefer not to have a restriction in the scavange return hense the 80 micron "choice I made". I inspect it after every pass to check for any engine issues. This allows me to "see" how the engine is doing inside and still make more power for less cost. My dyno results show ~8/12 hp on a 600 hp engine without the restriction. JMPOV.
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline vintagehotrod

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Re: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2012, 11:43:05 AM »
Oddly enough I am building a blown fuel jimmy also, looking for some billit main caps, Norton told me he got his from Fontana but I cant get him to return my calls. Any other sourses?

Offline 38flattie

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Re: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2012, 11:46:06 AM »
John, I just talked to Joe, and he has a set. Want me to get them coming?

Gonna have to pay you for the dyno anyway- I can bring them to you.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 11:50:53 AM by 38flattie »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2012, 01:07:46 PM »
Mike,
If you are seeing 8-12 hp difference between a low restriction (read low efficiency here) and a more efficient filter (read finer filter rating here) then again you are using the wrong type of filter for your return to the reservoir. As Dean said and 80 micron filter catches rocks and small children, what is going to kill your engine is going to be the 25 micron and smaller particles. Hydraulic horse power is calculated by this formula: HP= pressure x flow/1714 x pump efficiency, pressure is in psi and flow is in gallons per minute. We also need to remember that the average flow from all of the scavenger sections cannot be greater than the flow of the pressure section, you cannot pump out more than you have pumped in. If your pressure section pumped 10 gpm (which is high) and your max oil pressure is 100 psi then the power to drive the pressure pump would be:10 x 100/1714 x(pump efficiency) Gear pumps are notoriously inefficient so even if we said it was 50% efficient the power to drive the pressure pump would be about 1.2 hp and on the scavenger side most of the power required is from the basic internal friction/parasitic drag that is inherent in gear pumps. One of the things that is not taken into account here is that long stacked gear pumps have a huge amount of internal friction just because of the way they are built and mounted, all of those -12 lines hanging off the scavenger sections will actually cause the pump to bend, it may be an extremely small amount but when the side clearance between the gears and the side plates is less than .0005 inches it doesn't take much. Ever take a pump apart and see the ware on the side plates in just one area,? that is from the pump stack being deflected by mounting stresses. This gets back to the advantage of building a single collector manifold for the scavenger out lets  and having a single large return line and also supporting the back of the pump stack.

So if you are seeing 8-12 hp difference you are probably not seeing resistance to flow your are probably seeing the horse power required by the pump to eat itself up. When you look at the junk in your return line filter how do you tell which is from the engine and what is from the oil pumps? Gear pumps when they are new are the very best they will ever be because once they are started to turn they begin to wear themselves out, for our applications they work pretty well and are relatively inexpensive so that it what we get.

Rex 
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline Bob Drury

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Re: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2012, 03:33:06 PM »
  I hate it when someone is both smarter than me and makes sense with backup information at the same time!
  Now if that information isn't worth donating much needed cash to this site, you must be from another planet.
  I just wish that rather than shooting spitwads in class that I wouldn't have to do the math with my fingers and toes..............
                                                     Bob  :-D :? :-D
Bob Drury

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2012, 04:14:16 PM »
Rex, you are right. In my memory I thought it was a 2% improvment, but I went and checked my records. Only 1.5% improvment. That made the gains I saw only 6-9 hp. As far as the filter is concerned my testing used the same filter (A-B-A test) so that part of your reply dosen't fit in this test.
As far as the pump bending.... really? The Dailey pump tested has bearing supports at every stage along with dowels to align the sacvange and pressure sections so there not likely to be any gear rub in the housings unlike say a Weaver pump. Also the pump I use has an internal manifold but still preforms better with dual -16 returns.
The math you supplied is great and you're right as the pump I run puts out < 7 gpm at less than 80 psi. so using your formula would be right. On the other hand maybe my testing was done correctly and I'm seeing the improvments that your "calculations" say I can't be making. Van Dyne may have seen other numbers on his dyno but Stewart builds different engines than I do, and builds them in a different style so if you're using that as a basis for this discussion I'd say that's why we race.  
Now getting back to the filters. I clam no advanced knowledge on the subject, I just posted what I saw on my dyno and what setup I like to run in my and my customers cars and the reason I do so. If you can look at the inspection filter and see a problem before it become's major your can save yourself many more dollars from an engine failure than worrying about the cost of rebuilding your oil pump and cleaning the tank.
One last note to those reading this and making their own decisions on which way you want to plumb your oil system. Keep in mind it's very easy to get an idea what your inspection filter is telling you. I open the filter and spray it off with brake kleen onto a clean white paper towel. I use a loop or at least a 5x power magnifier and look at what comes out of the filter. If you do this after every pass you will some iron dust, you can tell with a magnet. Small aluminum specks can be the springs rubbing on the heads. The valve springs also make little specks or splinters from the titanium retainers. Any flakes of aluminum or copper should let you know that it's time to stop and look a little deeper. I found some little white plastic type slivers one time before a Trans-Am race, I dodn't know what it was but as I thought about it I realized it was from a valve seal. How did it get there? Broken valve spring! Save the race for us, finished 2nd at Mosport that day.
I just pulled the engine from my Modified roadster and took a picture of the pump. This is what I run currently, 5 stage Dailey pump, Fram HP6 (I know they're junk  :-D) filter before engine iol in, and a low restriction scavange return filter of 80 microns. The oil pan does have a very corse screen to keep any big chunks ( like a failed lifter) from jamming the pump and stopping it.
I don't like to make long reply's normally and that leaves the door open for other interpretations. I hope this fills in some of the blanks I my have left out of the original responce. I also wish my memory was better so I would't get other people jumping out of their chair saying BS.
Lots of different ways to skin a cat. This is mine, not wrong, just different.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 05:40:39 PM by Dynoroom »
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline 38flattie

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Re: How To Plumb In A Dry Sump Oil Pump?
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2012, 11:03:42 AM »
Hmmm, looks like Queezirider, Rex, and I, are the only ones who like the filter on the scavenger side.

Still, I remain undaunted!

I think strongly enough in my idea, although based on aviation and hydraulics, and I respect the opinions and experience on this board enough,  that I think some testing and data are necessary to make a final decision.

I’m going to test the engine, to get a baseline, with no filter 1 run, then move the filter to the pressure side, then the scavenger side. I’m curious to see how moving the filter effects to HP, if at all..
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c