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Author Topic: Inline-four crankshaft  (Read 141328 times)
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Jack Gifford
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« Reply #390 on: June 08, 2018, 01:41:14 AM »

I would REALLY like to monitor air/fuel ratio during my next test runs. I see that many reasonably priced air/fuel ratio meters will function with methanol. But I'm not sure how to come up with a sensor location that could work with individual exhaust stacks. Instructions for the meters only talk about where to place a sensor in an exhaust collector. Any comments?
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« Reply #391 on: June 08, 2018, 05:20:09 AM »


I would REALLY like to monitor air/fuel ratio during my next test runs. I see that many reasonably priced air/fuel ratio meters will function with methanol. But I'm not sure how to come up with a sensor location that could work with individual exhaust stacks. Instructions for the meters only talk about where to place a sensor in an exhaust collector. Any comments?


YES, monitoring A/F is something you really want to do.    Data of this nature can prevent the sort of problem you ran into.    What I do is:  On the run up to WOT, loaded on the brake, I'm watching the readout for A/F or BSFC to confirm that the engine is not way too lean or too rich.    This prevents damage to the engine, as you are aware.   You do however, need instrumentation you can trust . . . . .  So . . . .


You could monitor 1 cylinder, and presume the others are equal, although that is probably not the case,

If your dyno facility can log fuel flow into the engine, that can be calculated into: Brake specific fuel consumption.    Not A/F I know, but still useful.    ALL SuperFlow dyno have this calculation capability, as do Depac and Performance Trends equipped.

I would check with the mfg to see if a "dual fuel" O2 sensor that is ethanol safe is also methanol safe.    Methanol does have detrimental effects on some fuel flow sensors, notably SuperFlow.   


I'm certain others on the board will have other ideas/experiences.  Perhaps Harold Bettes or Mike Lefevers might have some suggestions, or put you into contact with a person with more experience.


Best wishes on this Jack.    Everyone wants your project to succeed.

 cheers
Mark
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Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #392 on: June 08, 2018, 08:57:59 AM »

AEM makes an A/F meter recorder with 4 inputs.  I used one on Max's liner... blown methanol... it worked.  They suggested not to close to the end of the pipe, we were less than 12 inches.
I have it in a box in the shop if you want to try it.
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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« Reply #393 on: June 08, 2018, 03:01:20 PM »

My experience was to have more problems with the mixture sensor setup than with the carb.  It might be good to have an exhaust gas temp meter to act as a backup.  This way, if something goes goofy with the indicated mixture readings there is another data set to examine.   
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« Reply #394 on: June 08, 2018, 04:54:37 PM »

What I have is a WBO2 in the collector and then 4 EGT sensors.  Once I get the AFR right, then I can see the imbalances in the cylinders.  I run ethanol over nitrous, as the mixture leans the EGT temps go up.  You also can see the effects that timing has on the EGTs, which you can't see with just O2 sensors.
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Jack Gifford
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« Reply #395 on: June 09, 2018, 12:40:59 AM »

... They suggested not to close to the end of the pipe, we were less than 12 inches...
Where would I position an oxygen sensor in an 18" long zoomie? Did you see a ratio of about 6.5:1?

EGTs were monitored in my dyno session. They have the capability to monitor fuel flow, but didn't bother (?) to set up the sensor during my session- next time I'll insist on it.

But prior to the dyno, I hope to monitor air/fuel ratio when test-running the engine (no load). I've got an A/F meter that I used for a gasoline street engine, but don't know if it's methanol compatible. I emailed AutoMeter with that question but they haven't responded. I'm guessing the answer is "no" since the instructions say "Intended for unleaded gasoline". There isn't a model number on the gauge, but the instruction sheet is #2650-1465-00; anybody know if it will work with methanol? If it won't, is it merely a matter of swapping out the sensor?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 12:47:13 AM by Jack Gifford » Logged

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Stainless1
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« Reply #396 on: June 09, 2018, 09:25:14 AM »

I think Max's were longer than that, but I would send a PM to NathanStewart on this site for a suggestion on placement and use in your case.  They want them away from the end to make sure they are only reading exhaust gas and not getting atmosphere.  It read well down to 5.5, about where we started if I am remembering right... I did see 6.5 one run and told Max I thought the data showed he was dangerously lean (my research showed 5.5 -6 would be the right ratio for LSR) .... but the motors were blubbering due to a timing problem we found during the autopsy and a drag racer that was helping that year suggested we needed to go leaner.... I think that next run showed about 6.8 to 7 and the motor finished the run in about 2 miles on 3 pistons.
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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« Reply #397 on: June 09, 2018, 09:59:12 AM »

Here is what AEM and Bosch have to say

* 30-2310 Inline Wideband UEGO Controller.pdf (196.8 KB - downloaded 22 times.)
* Bosch wideband O2 sensor install.pdf (205.15 KB - downloaded 16 times.)
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Stainless1
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« Reply #398 on: June 09, 2018, 10:06:01 PM »

Actually here is what they say about the 4 Channel...  cheers
http://www.aemelectronics.com/?q=products/wideband-uego-air-fuel-controllers/4-channel-wideband-uego-afr-controller
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
Jack Gifford
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« Reply #399 on: June 10, 2018, 12:06:58 AM »

Thanks guys.

Bosch says that a single cylinder can have the sensor as close as 12" to the exhaust port. And apparently having it close to the pipe's end would only cause unreliable readings at low engine speeds. So I guess I could try placing a sensor in a zoomie about 12" from the port and ignore low speed readings.

Stainless- In the AEM info I couldn't find any recommendation for sensor placement. Did you have sensors in individual runners? How far from the ports?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 12:11:23 AM by Jack Gifford » Logged

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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #400 on: June 10, 2018, 12:23:54 AM »

The dyno shop uses an O2 sensor attached to a wire probe that fits up the exhaust pipe.  They moved the probe around during testing and found good locations for the permeant O2 sensors.  The operator told me to place them where condensation running down the inside pipe wall will not contact the sensors.
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« Reply #401 on: June 10, 2018, 08:50:18 AM »

Yes Jack, we had a sensor in every pipe since each cylinder had a different size pill... and it was individual stacks, no way to do a collector.  Placement was based on where we could make them fit under the bodywork... Max built everything on the "blivit" principle... stuff 10 lbs in a 5 lb sack... so we tried to put the sensors in the same general spot in each pipe, and I am sure they were more than 12 inches from the end and at least 6-8 from the valve. 
The sensors are Bosch so I know we followed their installation recommendation as close as possible.
I was happy with the unit... as with all data... it is part of the puzzle... but it is data... collected instantly after the event.... you can watch it on the computer as is happens on a dyno.... a little tougher to intervene during a run on the salt.

Send me a PM if you want to borrow it and give it a test try.... it's in a box on the shelf.
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
Jack Gifford
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« Reply #402 on: June 10, 2018, 11:17:42 PM »

I assume that bungs for the sensors need to be welded into the stacks?

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« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 11:27:25 PM by Jack Gifford » Logged

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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #403 on: June 11, 2018, 07:42:39 AM »

The bungs pretty basic.  They are easier to spin up on a lathe than to go to the trouble of ordering them.
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Jack Gifford
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« Reply #404 on: June 12, 2018, 11:19:30 PM »

Thanks for the message.
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