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Author Topic: Inline-four crankshaft  (Read 214057 times)

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Offline salt27

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Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #120 on: March 31, 2014, 11:26:01 PM »
Anybody know why Jon hasn't responded to my email?

In Costa Rica maybe?
« Last Edit: March 31, 2014, 11:29:25 PM by salt27 »

Offline salt27

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Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #121 on: March 31, 2014, 11:27:56 PM »
Oops, my bad that was Joe.

 Don

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #122 on: April 01, 2014, 08:58:04 AM »
I know he spends a lot of time "on the road" for Gates.  I'll call him later and see if he got your email.
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.

Offline JonAmo

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Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #123 on: April 01, 2014, 07:02:25 PM »
I am here, but no email that I saw from you...

Just remember folks, Industrial belts and Automotive belts are not built the same. Industrial timing belts are made across the board same construction (in each family and style of belts), automotive belts use a different tooth profile and ARE NOT the same construction across the board. Automotive timing belts are made to the demands of the drive system in which they are made for. Every automotive timing belt is made for an automotive application. You have many different teeth profiles, square, trapezoidal, modified curvilinear and curvilinear. On top of that there are Highly Saturated Nitrile, Nitrile and Polyester belts including belts that are reinforced with jackets - like some diesel applications. We haven't even gotten into cord design or choices there.

Bottom line DO NOT ever settle on just dimensional data - it still may not be anywhere close the needs of the drive system and you end up with a broken belt and broken engine. Most would blame the belt but in reality it was a belt selection that was not correct for the application.

This is a touchy subject on belt selection since automotive belts are mode to fit an application. Not as easy to answer when you factor in all the data.

Let me know if I can be of any help.
Jon Amo

Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #124 on: April 01, 2014, 11:36:22 PM »
Jon- I sent to jkamo@comcast.net- is that correct?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 11:38:38 PM by Jack Gifford »
M/T Pontiac hemi guru (or does guru status expire after 30 years?)

Offline JonAmo

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Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #125 on: April 02, 2014, 11:56:05 AM »
I think this information is beneficial to all whom may be trying to source different parts.

> Sprockets 8M50S-36 and 8M-25S-36PB
 > Belt 1360-8M (30mm Powergrip HTD)

    Also, can you confirm that these parts are appropriate for a race
engine (3 liter 4-cylinder with roller-follower cams, 600 lb.-open valve
springs, to 9,500 RPM, about 700 HP)?


So to start off Industrial sprockets are only static balanced to approx 6000 ft/min and are very heavy material. These are not designed for automotive use running in the RPM range. Once past that 6000 ft/min it have a high probability of balance issues tearing apart system components. They can be dynamically balanced but it would be up to the user to accomplish this and then tested, but you still will be dealing with a heavier component then one designed for automotive use.

The 8M-25S-36PB would be 6550.221 ft/min (Gates number is PB8MX-25S-36) This sprocket is just a pilot hole and will need to be finish bored to size, set screws or keyway will have to be done.

The 8m-50S-36 would be 13116.15 ft/min - This has taperd bushing to contact.

Additionally the 1360-8m HTD belt will NOT work in those sprockets. And that is not an off the shelf belt. However there may be distributurs that have this size that we make the belt for exclusive. And they would be the only avenue to procure the belt.

Shorter answer is NO those parts would not be off the self appropiate for automotive use.

We have a MTO department that can make anything in any size and material that can better support what you are trying to accomplish.

Hope this information helps,
Jon

Offline Freud

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Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #126 on: April 02, 2014, 12:10:44 PM »
Gates provided an unreal amount of help to Treit/Davenport when they were running

the lakester. The blower drive belt jumped off frequently and the explosion was felt

all the way to the bank. They sent a field rep to the salt at least 3 times.

If you can describe the need and the problem, they can fix you up.

Just be ready to use the butter and egg money.

If you want the problem presented to engineering in Gates terms contact

Jon Amo. He's a racer and a Gates team member. He can convert racer

talk to the Gates language.

FREUD
Since '63

Offline RichFox

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Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #127 on: April 02, 2014, 04:41:23 PM »
I don't know anything much about belts. And i don't use them to drive anything that uses real power. But I have found that for some reason Summit does not carry injector pump drives for 32 plymouth, '56 Packard, '57 Lincoln,'26 Dodge or Lotus 907 engines. Why I don't know. So i have to make my own. I use cam belt pulleys left over from the Lotus or the Nissan. More recently I picked up some from a Goldwing. Very nice. They all seem to me to be 3/8ths pitch and i just buy belts of the right length in either 1/2 for fuel pumps or 3/4 for oil pumps. Always seems to work. But that is the advantage of ignorance.

Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #128 on: April 03, 2014, 12:06:16 AM »
...
1> Industrial sprockets are only static balanced to approx 6000 ft/min
2>  and are very heavy material.
3> past that 6000 ft/min... high probability of balance issues... can be dynamically balanced
4> 8M-25S-36PB would be 6550.221 ft/min
5> just a pilot hole
6> 8m-50S-36 would be 13116.15 ft/min
7> 1360-8m HTD belt will NOT work in those sprockets.
8> not an off the shelf belt... may be distributurs that have this
9> MTO department
 ,,,
.
As you said, some of this discussion may be "beneficial to all", therefore:

1> My belt speed at 9,500 RPM will be just 16% over Gates balance speed (~6,900 FPM).
2> Weight (and polar inertia) are of little consequence here.
3>  I'll be having all rotating pieces balanced anyway (see 5>).
4> My 6,900 FPM is only 6% over that.
5> Since I'll be machining custom hubs for all three sprockets, the existing bores are of no concern.
6> My 6,900 FPM is well under 13,116.
7> 'Not work' in what respect? Geometry (tooth profiles, etc.)? Suitability for load/speed? Durability? Minimum sprocket radii?
8> Will Gates Corporation help me by identifying those distributors for whom they manufactured the parts I found listed?
9> What is 'MTO'?

If you'd rather not discuss this "publicly", that's fine- just let me know.

M/T Pontiac hemi guru (or does guru status expire after 30 years?)

Offline johnneilson

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Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #129 on: April 03, 2014, 09:33:58 AM »
Jack,

Engineering belt drives are not as simple as one might think.
One issue also can be the shaft rigidity, in this case cams and crank.
The crank is usually not issue here, cams can be something different.

Another issue is the tooth profile and engaged amount of teeth. The std? timing belt trapezoidal design is very low in the capacity of transferred HP or torque. The HTD is better and Gates offers other higher performance products.

MTO refers to "made to order" department.

If I recall correctly, Gates has some very good engineering data on-line.

John

As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

Offline Richard 2

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Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #130 on: April 03, 2014, 11:37:49 AM »
If you are running an all aluminum block and head you will need to allow for growth in your adjustment.
219.648 mph F/BFMR 2010 Record
4 cylinder Esslinger
Could of had a V8

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Aniline-four crankshaft
« Reply #131 on: April 03, 2014, 01:21:25 PM »
The engineering group at Gates can provide the engineering design data for their products.... the hot rodder in you must decide if you can make it work of if you go the High dollar route of "engineer this drive for me". 
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.

Offline JonAmo

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Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #132 on: April 03, 2014, 01:33:57 PM »
...
1> Industrial sprockets are only static balanced to approx 6000 ft/min
2>  and are very heavy material.
3> past that 6000 ft/min... high probability of balance issues... can be dynamically balanced
4> 8M-25S-36PB would be 6550.221 ft/min
5> just a pilot hole
6> 8m-50S-36 would be 13116.15 ft/min
7> 1360-8m HTD belt will NOT work in those sprockets.
8> not an off the shelf belt... may be distributurs that have this
9> MTO department
 ,,,
.
As you said, some of this discussion may be "beneficial to all", therefore:

1> My belt speed at 9,500 RPM will be just 16% over Gates balance speed (~6,900 FPM). If it over the value than it is not advised to use.
2> Weight (and polar inertia) are of little consequence here. If your build says it doesn't matter then that could be the case.
3>  I'll be having all rotating pieces balanced anyway (see 5>).
4> My 6,900 FPM is only 6% over that.
5> Since I'll be machining custom hubs for all three sprockets, the existing bores are of no concern.
6> My 6,900 FPM is well under 13,116. Th3 13116 is the value of speed at your rpm point. So it is over the 6000 ft/min And not suggestested
7> 'Not work' in what respect? Geometry (tooth profiles, etc.)? Suitability for load/speed? Durability? Minimum sprocket radii? The main point here is the tooth mathcing from pulley to belt or vise versa. You should always ahve a matched belt and pulley system if not the contact points will not allow for proper power transfer.
8> Will Gates Corporation help me by identifying those distributors for whom they manufactured the parts I found listed? RCD Engineering is a good place to start.
9> What is 'MTO' Made to Order

If you'd rather not discuss this "publicly", that's fine- just let me know.



Offline JonAmo

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Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #133 on: April 03, 2014, 01:42:20 PM »
Jack,

 IT IS UP TO THE BUILDER to TEST, TEST, TEST and see if these will work at a different rating then they were originally designed for. We only give the ratings of a component that fits within the intended use of the part.

Hope you find what you are looking for,
Jon Amo

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #134 on: April 05, 2014, 06:17:55 AM »
Jack,

 IT IS UP TO THE BUILDER to TEST, TEST, TEST and see if these will work at a different rating then they were originally designed for. We only give the ratings of a component that fits within the intended use of the part.

Hope you find what you are looking for,
Jon Amo

I've designed lots of "stuff" over the years, including a bunch of belt drives for various accessories.   Sometimes I'm in uncharted territory, as far as the application goes.    BUT, I ALWAYS find it helpful to listen to the manufacturing/design engineers that produce the components that I'm trying to utilize.    With their greater knowledge and experience with THEIR PARTS, they can usually be counted on to provide sound advice.    When they make a point, I always make it a point to listen to what they have to say.

Costs me nothing, AND, over the years, I've learned a bunch that way . . . . . .                 Just my 2 cents worth.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
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