(Note: Donations are not tax deductible)

This is a public forum. The opinions expressed here don't
necessarily reflect the feelings of The Folks That Run The Site (that's us)
unless we explicitly say so, ok?


Forum's been "upgraded".
Things will look a bit different.
A *few* posts might have gotten lost in the crossover.
PM bobc with problems, or post in "Website Suggestions".

Author Topic: Inline-four crankshaft  (Read 201762 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Stainless1

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7329
  • Age: 68
  • Location: Near Furley and Kechi KS
  • Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele
Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #105 on: December 06, 2013, 09:18:37 AM »
I'm merely asking about engine dynamic considerations. I could imagine that one or the other firing order might behave (vibrate, shake, whatever) worse than the other. Ideally, I'd like to find some real-world examples to learn from. I won't be using any balance shaft.

Does the 1-2-4-3 order Hayabusa use balance shaft(s)?

It does have a balance shaft, most racers take it out.  The motor will buzz a little in spots, it eats a couple of HP, but it is not a street motor so who cares if it buzzes a little  :-D
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.

Offline fredvance

  • FVANCE
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2297
  • Age: 75
  • Location: Bulverde TX
    • Vance and Forstall Racing
Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #106 on: December 06, 2013, 09:22:42 AM »
I have mine balanced, they are pretty close from the factory. I do remove the internal shaft, Like Bob!!
WORLDS FASTEST PRODUCTION MOTORCYCLE 213.470
Vance&Forstall Racing
WOS 2011 235+MPH
Engine by Knecum, Tuned by Johnny Cheese.
Sponsers Catalyst Composites, Johnny Cheese Perf, Knecum Racing Engines, Murray Headers, Carpenter Racing

Offline jacksoni

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1187
  • Age: 75
  • Location: Annapolis, Maryland
Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #107 on: December 06, 2013, 10:06:32 AM »
All 4 cyls will shake some, larger stroke, worse it gets but the firing order is not the issue. Both 1342 and 1243 are used in production engines. I surmise that if there were a real advantage to one over the other, that would not be the case. Again, ignoring port configurations. I have seen reference to MG, Ford and Yamaha using the less common 1243 pattern.

http://books.google.com/books?id=DoYaRsNFlEYC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=1342+vs+1243+firing+order&source=bl&ots=3OZXNzCojy&sig=yBbYmQa34wsUi1Rq8sDzyNBtG4w&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DfShUrLYNIaysAStsoGgDA&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=1342%20vs%201243%20firing%20order&f=false
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 176.245  2018
 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline JimL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 763
  • Age: 73
  • Location: Sutherlin, Oregon
Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #108 on: December 06, 2013, 11:19:18 AM »
Maybe your firing order decision comes down to what parts or software are most commonly available on the current market?  For example, a certain size distributor cap may have the firing order numbers embossed on it.  It wont matter until the day someone accidentallly puts the wires on in the "as marked" locations.  Same thing with programmed ignition software.

  Different crew help come and go; every one of our projects has been at the mercy of lifes complications, from year to year.  If most your friends think 1-3-4-2 is the firing order of a banger, then thats what you better use.  Someday, one of them will be helpng under the easy-up.

JimL

Offline johnneilson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 437
  • Age: 58
  • Location: N 34 15 ' 0 '' W 118 21 ' 53
Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #109 on: December 06, 2013, 09:25:37 PM »
I reused a EFI system on my current car so the coils are numbered 4-1 and the injectors 1-4 front to back.
It took me an hour to explain to some guy that with wasted spark and batch inj that it didn't matter.

Then, he tried to tell me that I was going to overheat the coils.

J
As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

Offline Jack Gifford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1306
  • Age: 79
  • Location: Phelps, NY
Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #110 on: March 22, 2014, 11:48:40 PM »
Some progress.
Block modifications done and back from getting almost every machined surface re-machined- align bored, decks/pan rail/front face squared and trued, bores finish-honed.
Almost finished creating a dedicated scavenge cavity to handle all top-end oil return.
Moldex has my down-payment to begin creating a billet crank- hit them at a good time, as they expect about an 8-week timeframe.
Working with Diamond to start on billet pistons.
A  couple of billet pieces made for the front face-
 > front main seal plate, as there won't be any timing cover- cam belt drive will be "open air".
 > multi-function plate to anchor adjustable belt idlers and to route coolant from the cylinder bank up to the head.

Began laying out the belt drive for the DOHC, and so far it appears that I'm extremely lucky (dumb luck?).
> Using 8mm-pitch, the largest flanged sprockets to fit the cam center distance (about .2" to spare) are 50 tooth (even number necessary for half-speed cam drive).
> In 36mm wide, both 50 and 25 tooth sprockets are available-stock items- hurrah!
> My geometric calculation shows I need a belt of minimum pitch length 1,356.9 mm- a 30mm by 1,360mm belt is a stock item, which is well within my idler adjustment range.
> And the final stroke of luck- building 7-bolt hubs on the cam sprockets will provide fully-indexable cam positioning in one-degree increments.
Wow- must be my lucky day! :-)
M/T Pontiac hemi guru (or does guru status expire after 30 years?)

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2250
  • Age: 3
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #111 on: March 23, 2014, 07:46:21 AM »
Some progress.
Block modifications done and back from getting almost every machined surface re-machined- align bored, decks/pan rail/front face squared and trued, bores finish-honed.
Almost finished creating a dedicated scavenge cavity to handle all top-end oil return.
Moldex has my down-payment to begin creating a billet crank- hit them at a good time, as they expect about an 8-week timeframe.
Working with Diamond to start on billet pistons.
A  couple of billet pieces made for the front face-
 > front main seal plate, as there won't be any timing cover- cam belt drive will be "open air".
 > multi-function plate to anchor adjustable belt idlers and to route coolant from the cylinder bank up to the head.

Began laying out the belt drive for the DOHC, and so far it appears that I'm extremely lucky (dumb luck?).
> Using 8mm-pitch, the largest flanged sprockets to fit the cam center distance (about .2" to spare) are 50 tooth (even number necessary for half-speed cam drive).
> In 36mm wide, both 50 and 25 tooth sprockets are available-stock items- hurrah!
> My geometric calculation shows I need a belt of minimum pitch length 1,356.9 mm- a 30mm by 1,360mm belt is a stock item, which is well within my idler adjustment range.
> And the final stroke of luck- building 7-bolt hubs on the cam sprockets will provide fully-indexable cam positioning in one-degree increments.
Wow- must be my lucky day! :-)

Jack,

Lucky day my buttocks!!

I know what the dictionary definition of luck is.   For racers, luck is the intersection of opportunity, engineering, preparation and finance.

Sounds to me like you have done a sh**load of measuring, pre-planning and good old "engineering".    You "made" your own luck the old fashioned way, you worked hard for it.

Congratulations!!   You deserve it and your hard "engineering" work is starting to pay off.
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy

P.S.   How about some photos?
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline johnneilson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 437
  • Age: 58
  • Location: N 34 15 ' 0 '' W 118 21 ' 53
Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #112 on: March 23, 2014, 10:18:48 AM »
Some progress.
Block modifications done and back from getting almost every machined surface re-machined- align bored, decks/pan rail/front face squared and trued, bores finish-honed.
Almost finished creating a dedicated scavenge cavity to handle all top-end oil return.
Moldex has my down-payment to begin creating a billet crank- hit them at a good time, as they expect about an 8-week timeframe.
Working with Diamond to start on billet pistons.
A  couple of billet pieces made for the front face-
 > front main seal plate, as there won't be any timing cover- cam belt drive will be "open air".
 > multi-function plate to anchor adjustable belt idlers and to route coolant from the cylinder bank up to the head.

Began laying out the belt drive for the DOHC, and so far it appears that I'm extremely lucky (dumb luck?).
> Using 8mm-pitch, the largest flanged sprockets to fit the cam center distance (about .2" to spare) are 50 tooth (even number necessary for half-speed cam drive).
> In 36mm wide, both 50 and 25 tooth sprockets are available-stock items- hurrah!
> My geometric calculation shows I need a belt of minimum pitch length 1,356.9 mm- a 30mm by 1,360mm belt is a stock item, which is well within my idler adjustment range.
> And the final stroke of luck- building 7-bolt hubs on the cam sprockets will provide fully-indexable cam positioning in one-degree increments.
Wow- must be my lucky day! :-)

Jack,

Lucky day my buttocks!!

I know what the dictionary definition of luck is.   For racers, luck is the intersection of opportunity, engineering, preparation and finance.

Sounds to me like you have done a sh**load of measuring, pre-planning and good old "engineering".    You "made" your own luck the old fashioned way, you worked hard for it.

Congratulations!!   You deserve it and your hard "engineering" work is starting to pay off.
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy

P.S.   How about some photos?

I was always taught, Winning was the fortunate collapse of the Quantum waveform where "opportunity, engineering, preparation and finance" intersect.
Then it is off all bets off again.........

J
As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5006
  • Age: 66
  • Location: backwoods Oregon
Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #113 on: March 23, 2014, 11:01:06 AM »
Sometimes it looks like all four of those are needed plus a big dose of luck. 

Offline Jack Gifford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1306
  • Age: 79
  • Location: Phelps, NY
Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #114 on: March 24, 2014, 11:10:20 PM »
I hope that my apparent success at locating "stock" pieces for the cam drive isn't short-lived, but... I just noticed that my Internet reference for Gates products is the South Pacific Catalog... uh oh... :cry:
I'd better get on the phone with Gates.
M/T Pontiac hemi guru (or does guru status expire after 30 years?)

Online Seldom Seen Slim

  • Nancy and me and the pit bike
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12429
  • Age: 71
  • Location: Skandia, Michigan
  • Nancy -- 201.913 mph record on a production ZX15!
    • Nancy and Jon's personal website.
Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #115 on: March 25, 2014, 08:18:42 AM »
Or you could send an email to Jon Amo.  He's a member here under that name -- and works for Gates. :cheers:
Jon E. Wennerberg
 a/k/a Seldom Seen Slim
 Skandia, Michigan
 (that's way up north)
2 Club member x2
Owner of landracing.com

Offline Crackerman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
  • Location: Alvord, Tx
Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #116 on: March 25, 2014, 08:24:08 AM »
I hope that my apparent success at locating "stock" pieces for the cam drive isn't short-lived, but... I just noticed that my Internet reference for Gates products is the South Pacific Catalog... uh oh... :cry:
I'd better get on the phone with Gates.

most of the common parts gates produces were available in the states at any given time. euro, korean (things like daewoo are a bit oddball, but kia and hyundai used mitsubishi engine families) and japanese , until you get into the funky diesel engines. the parts may still cross to an available engine derivative in the US.

Offline Bob Drury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2568
  • Age: 72
  • Location: Vancouver,Wa.
Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #117 on: March 25, 2014, 11:16:39 AM »
   Not to steal this thread, but on the BangShift.com site if you scroll down to a article on the Lingefelter flat crank v8 you can watch and listen to this motor on a dyno with a sound somewhere between a Offy 4 bangr, and Courtney Hizers Indy motor based buick v6.  Pretty neat clip.
Bob Drury

Offline Jack Gifford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1306
  • Age: 79
  • Location: Phelps, NY
Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #118 on: March 29, 2014, 12:34:00 AM »
,,, send an email to Jon Amo... works for Gates...
Thanks. Sent Jon Amo an email.
M/T Pontiac hemi guru (or does guru status expire after 30 years?)

Offline Jack Gifford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1306
  • Age: 79
  • Location: Phelps, NY
Re: Inline-four crankshaft
« Reply #119 on: March 31, 2014, 11:14:54 PM »
Anybody know why Jon hasn't responded to my email?
M/T Pontiac hemi guru (or does guru status expire after 30 years?)