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Author Topic: Question on CBGALT  (Read 1039 times)

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Offline wheelrdealer

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Question on CBGALT
« on: July 06, 2020, 10:07:05 AM »




I will throw this out on the forum for some insight. Let's start, yes I have and read the rule book. If this has been discussed I was not able to find it in the forum search.

On a Classic BGALT turbo engine the rule book says no computer EMS. I have a knob style manual boost controller. It has the option for a low and high boost setting activated by a switch.  QUESTION:  Will SCTA allow a high/low turbo switch in Classic or is that considered engine management system?

Thanks in advance,

BR
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Offline jl222

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Re: Question on CBGALT
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2020, 10:26:02 AM »




I will throw this out on the forum for some insight. Let's start, yes I have and read the rule book. If this has been discussed I was not able to find it in the forum search.

On a Classic BGALT turbo engine the rule book says no computer EMS. I have a knob style manual boost controller. It has the option for a low and high boost setting activated by a switch.  QUESTION:  Will SCTA allow a high/low turbo switch in Classic or is that considered engine management system?

Thanks in advance,

BR

  How would they know ? Don't say anything about it.

 A manual switch is not computer controlled.

     jl222


Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Question on CBGALT
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2020, 12:01:03 PM »




I will throw this out on the forum for some insight. Let's start, yes I have and read the rule book. If this has been discussed I was not able to find it in the forum search.

On a Classic BGALT turbo engine the rule book says no computer EMS. I have a knob style manual boost controller. It has the option for a low and high boost setting activated by a switch.  QUESTION:  Will SCTA allow a high/low turbo switch in Classic or is that considered engine management system?

Thanks in advance,

BR

  How would they know ? Don't say anything about it.

 A manual switch is not computer controlled.

     jl222


 lol8
Michael LeFevers
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Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline hoss

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Re: Question on CBGALT
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2020, 10:34:58 PM »
I don't post much, but I'll jump in here on this one.  I run in a vintage class with a long line of previous record holders, I respect what they did, and with what they learned to make the go power to get it done.  I am running close to the record for the class now, and could bend the rules or just flat out use technology to cheat, but that is not the record I want.  I want to go home with the knowledge that I ran with a legal car against all previous record holders without cheating. I want to sleep well and not have to duck questions about how I did it.  The winners check for a record run without cheating the system is much more valuable to me.

Offline wheelrdealer

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Re: Question on CBGALT
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2020, 06:28:11 AM »
Hoss:

I agree 100%.

I have no intentions of "cheating" hence I put my question out in a public forum.

All I wanted to know is if it FELL IN our OUTSIDE the rules for a Classic category.

Many times I have read here not to read something in the rule that is not stated. My goal like everyone here is to try and run on a record. I could not think of anything worse than finally getting the car, driver and the salt to cooperate and finding a violation in impound.

Appreciate the feed back.

BR
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Offline hoss

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Re: Question on CBGALT
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2020, 09:29:03 AM »
There is a list of contacts for technical and engine information towards the back of the rule book, they would be the ones to call for information on what's right.  The times I have reached out they have been nice enough to wok with and can interpret "rule speak".
It seems every year I see really cool cars show up and wind up running for "time only" because they don't qualify for a class.
 so it's great your asking question now, Good luck, be safe, good fast!

Offline jl222

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Re: Question on CBGALT
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2020, 12:53:36 PM »
There is a list of contacts for technical and engine information towards the back of the rule book, they would be the ones to call for information on what's right.  The times I have reached out they have been nice enough to wok with and can interpret "rule speak".
It seems every year I see really cool cars show up and wind up running for "time only" because they don't qualify for a class.
 so it's great your asking question now, Good luck, be safe, good fast!

  Hoss... do you think a manual switch is computer controlled?

               jl222

Offline wheelrdealer

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Re: Question on CBGALT
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2020, 04:25:34 PM »
I sent an email to the head of the Classic Catagory. I will let you know what I learn.

BR
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Offline Stainless1

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Re: Question on CBGALT
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2020, 08:50:33 AM »
No dog in the fight... but the question has to be what does the switch do?  What does it activate in the boost controller... is it a solenoid or a chip inside?  That will determine legality in my opinion....
Stainless
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Offline wheelrdealer

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Re: Question on CBGALT
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2020, 09:56:40 AM »
Good point. Did not think of it that way. Thanks Stainless.

Solenoid that switches the boost pulse from one knob manually set on a lower boost setting to a parallel knob set at a higher boost setting. No circuit board just a pin that closes one side and opens another.

BR
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Offline wheelrdealer

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Re: Question on CBGALT
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2020, 09:03:55 PM »
Here is the answer I got from Tech:

"Bill I ran your question by the members of the classic committee and everyone agrees as do I as long as it's driver controlled it's OK to use the switch. Any other questions let me know."

Thanks for the input.

BR

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Offline Saltfever

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Re: Question on CBGALT
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2020, 02:05:56 AM »
R it's a good question and I'm glad you brought it up. Also, thanks for posting the reply.

The intent of the Classic Category is to run the old mechanical stuff and not modern computers that manage everything on the motor in real time. A good example would be the O2 sensor. The sensor sends data to the ECU in milliseconds, along with a myriad of other data, and the ECU tweaks the EFI injectors to provide a precise AFR. Any aftermarket system like that would be illegal. Classic Category wants you changing the Hilborn pill after the run and not an ECU controlling injectors during the run. Nevertheless, you can still legally use an O2 sensor to record data to be used for analysis after a run. Also, a stock ECU system before 1981 is legal.

However, in later years aftermarket ignition system have become sophisticated and are managing themselves in real time without driver input. Good examples are the MSD series 7 and 8 systems. They provide, automatic boost retard, various ignition curves, and other automatic triggers all input by a driver before the engine is started. The key here is that once the motor is started the unit is standalone and there is no other sensor feeding information to the unit that will change its behavior.

Historical Reference up to 2010:
2.Q Computer: Vehicles may be equipped with a computer which affects engine operations ONLY, e.g., Timed fuel injection, etc., except in Vintage Engine classes, see section 2.A.1.
This rule has always been excluded or barred from the Classic Category.

Historical Reference 2011 to date:
2.Q Computer: Vehicles may be equipped with a computer which affects engine operations ONLY, except in Vintage Engine classes, see section 2.A.1.

The wording Timed fuel injection has been deleted in all rule books since 2011. I think it has added confusion to the Classic Category because the original intent still stands. No computer management of engine parameters from sensor feedback.   

In the case of the MSD unit or a Boost control device, these are individual modules that are responding to inputs, or decisions, made by the driver before engine start. In some cases the driver may be able to change them during a run. But it is being managed by the driver and not a computer.

My apologies for the log post. I tried the best I could. Your comments are valued.

Offline wheelrdealer

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Re: Question on CBGALT
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2020, 05:51:29 AM »
Saltfever:

Thanks, good explanation.

BR
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