Author Topic: Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?  (Read 17015 times)

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DocBeech

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Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?
« on: September 08, 2011, 12:12:24 PM »
Ok guys after the loss of my RX8 and 6 months to pout about it I am back. I miss my rotary but the only engine swap I ever did was on a 04 mustang and it was v8 - v8. I have never done anything like this before so I have a lot of questions and no one close by to ask them lol. I am hoping the experience of you guys can help me make this happen. Currently I have a 1963 VW running a 1972 1.6L (60hp model) AH motor. Its bored and stroked to 1.8L and about 80HP. Well she is dieing on me. Ive replaced the carbs, and ignition system. I have replaced the cams, and even had it rebuilt. But she just isn't holding compression for more than 2 years at a time and the engines age and wear is making it impossible to keep doing this. I am wanting to swap out to a 13B carbed rotary engine. I have a new Gex Pro Street 4 speed transmission. So my first question is would this transaxle hold up to the double rpm it would have to take? How would you go about mounting the oil coolers and radiator on a car that is rear engine and air cooled. I have a lot more questions but this is just a start. Again I need lots of help. So your patience would also be very appreciated.

Offline bucketlist

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Re: Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2011, 02:28:51 PM »
I had a SCCA caged Ghia, and I'm still dabbling in VWs. Contact Gex about the transaxle limitations. Not familiar with your 13B, but I've swapped engines where they weren't intended to be. You already know this won't be like the v8-v8 where you make simple new mounts and reroute a hose. Your VW engine is not mounted in the usual sense, it only hangs on the transaxle. So you will need some kind of frame to support a different engine, and you need to somehow tie that to the frameless body you have, which of course means to integrate it with the cage construction. You probably know all that tin is there to prevent air flow from top to bottom except over the heads and barrels, and you won't need any of it with your water-cooled engine, so you can clear it out to make space. Radiator and oil cooling most likely need to be up front where you have air pressure and can reasonably expect flow through. My Renault Dauphine had the radiator back there in front of the engine, but it had side intakes on the body and a lot of research I'm sure to insure enough cooling for the 22hp. You might find some way to use fans, but be real sure you're exiting to a lower pressure area, which usually doesn't include the back of the car. How to proceed depends on restrictions of the class you plan to run (body mods).

When engine system and cooling system locations etc are sufficiently foreign to the body, I like to do a body swap. I've built from scratch too, and much prefer to adapt an existing system rather than scrounge and fab forever. Instead of having to reinvent everything but the wheel, you just have to make simple body mounts and adapt existing things to fit the new envelope. This easy plan probably doesn't square with your new trans on hand and possible lack of donor car attached to the engine you want, and maybe class rules. And maybe dogged personal preference, a trait I admire in members of this forum when it comes to weird combinations. 

I realize there's no help in this reply, but it's a conversation. I've got tons of DBHVW from the 70s and 80s. I don't recall any rotary swaps, but I wasn't looking for them either. I'll peruse in my spare time and see what I find. I know there were v8 swaps, so there will surely be something showing radiator installations. Use Google, v8 VW rat rods are showing up these days, you might find something of value re cooling.

Step 1, know which class you plan to run and get very familiar with limitations on body mods. Not just outer shape, find everything about body mods including ducting, venting, clearance, whatever. Everything about this swap is going to hinge on that.
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DocBeech

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Re: Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2011, 02:52:35 PM »
Everything I have found is for the Bug. The advantage I think here is I have a lot more room in the back to work with. The 13B Rotary engine is smaller and lighter than the 1.8L I am running now, its only a 1.3L. Its also an aluminum block so weight isnt an issue, and since its rotary I know I can use solid motor mounts.

Where it does come in to play though Is I would have to run duct work in the front for the new found radiator. Plus I would have to run a pretty long set of tubes front to back for that coolant. I do see the problem with the fans though. I can get the air in, but I would have to develop a way to also get the air back out. Luckily the ghia has two front ducts so I don't have to add them. I can just open them up and instead of running fresh air I would run radiator cooling ducts.

A plate exists for the transmission but I don't think it can handle the RPMS a rotary engine can. I will talk with GEX but I don't trust it was designed to run at 7500 RPM.

My cage construction comes no where close to supporting an engine lol. I would have to find a metal worker to work with me on cutting up the bay and making a cage to extend back should I need to mount it that way. Since I am running a rotary engine the cards are already stacked to prevent me from winning anything. Everyone loves to destroy the chances of rotary engines so this would be for my own pleasure. I know that the 13B rotary engine though can push 300HP to 350HP with a supercharge on 6 psi. That means an increase of 200HP with a lighter/smaller motor.

Offline MAZDA1807

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Re: Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2011, 03:54:39 PM »
Well first off, yes Mazda says it is 1.3l but per the rules it's a 2.6l(ED=SV*2. ED = equivalent displacement and SV = swept volume.), the other thing is that it costs alot of cash to get that tiny engine up to about 300hp. Remember you can't just bore and stroke it or change the cams, it doesn't have any, just 2 rotors and a crap load of seals and springs. Peter
80ci,264.7 RWHP, 19.2sq.ft. of frontal area, 175.611, NOTBAD

DocBeech

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Re: Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2011, 04:15:40 PM »
I had an RX8 which was stock 240hp NA. I am looking at the ported motors and using a supercharger. Taking out the AC will help some too. I am looking at the 13B-REW motors. They were stock around 265-280HP. I figure if I supercharge it I will get more reliable horsepower. Taking off the AC unit, and running a lower amp alternator(I only need the 55 amp) will help bring that HP back up. I did some reading and since I have a Ghia I do have more room to work with. I know the best I can do is get the ported version (REW) and run a supercharger at 6-9 PSI. I am still trying to find out from GEX if the transmission will even hold up. I have figured out how to run the coolant lines and mount the radiator (Stock seems to fit up front) from front to rear and put in a pump mid line under the car. The oil cooler will need to be mounted under the car with a tin plate to direct the hot air away from the motor. The exhaust will have to be custom made at a muffler shop. I will have to design a tin plate between the motor and the heads to keep the heat away from her.

Some things I still am unsure about. Is who can tune the jets on the carbs. Where to get an engine management system that is plug and play. How to mount the engine to the vehicle (my motor is free floating). I also need to work out the fuel return line. I will end up replacing the fuel lines anyways and just welding in a junction to the original fuel tank for the second fuel line.

However I see you run mazda so can you suggest a builder for the 13B-REW? Also are you running stock engine management or aftermarket?

Offline Unkl Ian

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Re: Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2011, 09:30:28 PM »
GEX has a reputation for building grenades.  :-o  :evil: :-o

Might find some helpful swap info here: http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=19&sid=8067eba8859b7c691bcf8ab46ff9e9bd
I guess the answer is "a Secret" .

Offline wlarryglick

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Re: Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2011, 09:33:54 PM »
Doc Beech,

Don’t do it! Sell the Ghia as the great majority of the value of a Ghia is in the body. Almost everything else but the pan (chassis or frame) is the same as a Bug. To put a water-cooled engine of any type would call for serious body modifications to the Ghia. The swap would call for new engine mounts, modifying the Ghia for radiator air intakes, radiator positioning and mounting (almost all the room under a Ghia hood is taken up by the spare tire, gas tank, and foot wells), coolant lines front to back, etc., etc. All this will take a great deal of time and money and reduce the Ghia’s value to almost nil. Also, the rotary’s rotation my be opposite of the VW’s engine/transaxle.                             

Put the rotary engine into a Mazda that would easily and logically accept it and you’ll be back on the road or track much sooner without spending a lot of time and money.

And having spent the last forty-five years owning, modifying, racing, and restoring air-cooled VW’s, I know of what I speak. I believe your VW engines are wearing out because they were not assembled by a knowledgeable mechanic with quality parts. A well-built stock engine should last at least 50,000 miles with only minor maintenance. I currently own a ‘72 Super Beetle and a ‘58 Ghia.

I have had a ’50 Split window Bug with a 1700 cc (actually 1688 cc) engine with Erson cam and Holley Bug Spray carburetor; a ‘66 Bug with a stock 1300 cc engine, a ‘61 Ghia with a stock ‘72 1600 cc dual-port engine; a ‘62 VW Single Cab truck with a 1776 cc engine with Engle 110 cam and dual Kadron carburetors. On the Super Beetle I rebuilt all the suspension and rear brakes while adding factory front disc brakes. The ‘58 Ghia has an 1835 cc engine with Engle 130 cam, ported and polished heads and manifolds, dual 45 mm Dellorto carburetors, four-wheel disc brakes, and close-ratio ’68 transaxle. I have assembled all my VW engines except for the ‘66’s 1300 cc engine. “If you want it done right, do it yourself!”

P.S. GEX products are not held in very high regard within the air-cooled Volkswagen community.







DocBeech

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Re: Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2011, 10:20:06 PM »
I know GEX sucks, but the transmission was free, and the original transmission was shot. 1st and 2nd gear synchros were out. The third gear was destroyed. The axle was loose and leaking fluid.

I would sell her but no one wants to pay the 7500 I am asking for her lol.

Offline Freud

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Re: Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2011, 12:25:08 AM »
Any chance it is overpriced?

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Offline dw230

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Re: Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2011, 12:50:51 AM »
Thank looks like the "Not For Sale" price.

DE
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Offline MAZDA1807

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Re: Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2011, 12:52:40 AM »
Just a few questions: why would you need someone to do your jetting on the carbs if you're running a stand-alone EMS?, the 240hp number you talk about is at the flywheel, not the wheels(so figure about 20% less or more). Myself I run a carb(Holley 850) for now, on a peripheral port 13b. When you talk about boost psi added to the engine it makes me wounder what type of apex seals you are running(stock ones won't last very long and the carbon ones won't take much boost). My dad and I build our own engines(he worked for Mazda for 22years).
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 12:54:30 AM by MAZDA1807 »
80ci,264.7 RWHP, 19.2sq.ft. of frontal area, 175.611, NOTBAD

Offline bucketlist

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Re: Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2011, 01:48:50 AM »

...Don’t do it! Sell the Ghia... Put the rotary engine into a Mazda...


I agree. I would still have mine for the beautiful body, but the previous owner had gutted it rather severely and added fender flares, compromising beauty as well as value. I bought it for the Weber 40IDA's it had and recovered my entire investment on the rest. I assumed Doc wanted to keep the Ghia for style or aero. If rotary is the main interest, I definitely vote for starting with a rotary car. Cd will possibly be as low as the Ghia anyway.

Doc, it sounds like you've never built a seriously modified car. I assure you it can go on for a long time, some parts of it more than once, and having to farm out all the radical fab work can be horribly expen$ive. So much simpler and cheaper to start with a car that's close to what you need and modify from there.

Then again, if a blown rotary powered Ghia is your dream car, go for it. The world needs a few more cars that don't follow the crowd. I'm busy with a couple of them on my bucket list. But on your way, pay attention to the advice from folks like Mazda1807 who've been there and done that with rotary engines.

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2011, 11:39:29 PM »
If you're going to commit to this, I'm wondering if a Corvair transaxle might not be the simplest way to begin to mate this all up.  :roll:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline maguromic

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Re: Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2011, 12:48:14 AM »
The Corvair transaxles are strong as long as you don't beat on  them and there have been many v8 conversions to prove their reliability.  A few years ago I helped put an IRL Chevy in one, and he still drives it around on the street with no issues.  Tony
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Offline wlarryglick

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Re: Karmann Ghia Engine Swap?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2011, 04:17:53 PM »
I believe the Corvair engine/transaxle is set up to rotate in the opposite direction of lmost, if not all, other engines.