Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA Rules Questions => Topic started by: wfojohn on July 09, 2011, 10:41:56 AM
-
Can a production class bike have the engine size increased to move into the next production class EVEN IF the manufacturer never produced that size bike. Here is an example, a legal 50cc is overbored and now competes as a 100cc production class bike?
-
No
-
Thanks John, that was always my impression. I saw a new 100/2 production record and wondered if it was set with a legal bike or a 50cc Aprilia. Anyone know exactly what model/brand bike set it?
-
Since this is an ECTA question, my guess is it is possible to do it with a 50cc bike, running in the 100 class.
-
Since this is an ECTA question, my guess is it is possible to do it with a 50cc bike, running in the 100 class.
Bob,
If so what would stop Fred Vance from running in 1350, 1650, 2000, 3000 cc etc in production? If that is Still legal at Maxton then that is sad... :roll:
-
Since this is an ECTA question, my guess is it is possible to do it with a 50cc bike, running in the 100 class.
Bob,
If so what would stop Fred Vance from running in 1350, 1650, 2000, 3000 cc etc in production?
...
The long drive from Texas... :-D
-
If so disgusting..so you can still run a 50cc PP bike in say a 3000cc PP class..I thought they fixed that?
-
Nope. You can't run up in chassis class anymore (no lakesters in streamliner class, etc) and in engine class (no G in BG, etc), but you CAN still run up in displacement class.
-
That's why all of those production records are above 200.
-
Ransom and I have personal experience with chasing a production record. The 1350/1650/2000 records were all set by the same bike. If he wants to get his green hat, therefor, he's got to either beat the existing number - which I remember as being high - or run in the 3000cc class where the record is still within reach. He and I have traded the 3000 record back and forth - we know what it's like to find a single bike having all three of the records. Further deponent sayeth not.
-
Forstall bike Mark Deluca riding. :cheers:
-
Go for it.....they don't measure record setters anyway..................
It is all about "personal integrity"..........is that not a wonderfull thing.....sure wish SCTA and BUB
would allow us "personal integrity" would save a lot of work in impound and allow for more celebration and beer time..................
-
Who sez you can't drink beer when tearing down for certification? I sure do.
DW
-
OK. folks you heard it here......free beer in SCTA impound......thanks DW.....Love.B.B.
-
Bob, I think you've got the basics of the impound beer down, but it's not in the right order. That is -- Dan will accept all the free beers that are offered to him when he's in impound. Hey, for that matter, I don't remember him turning down a beer when NOT in impound, either.
-
Well what is confusing to me is several years ago we were at Maxton with a street legal 1974 Yamaha RD60 using it as a pit bike. The RD60 was manufactured with a 55cc engine. I ask if I could sleeve it to a 50cc and run Production and Keith said no, there was no point in signing up for the 100cc class that day. Later we brought it back sleeved to 49cc and ran Modified which was appropriate. I thought (I could be wrong, I am getting old) I was told that Production had to run the class the engine size fell into as manufactured.
Now, in Modified we have run higher classes than our actual engine size at Maxton and we are okay with that but HOW CAN YOU PRODUCE DOCUMENTATION for a bike that never existed. There is no 100cc Aprilia. Just seems wrong but with no inspection/measuring/etc I guess this is going to happen. Again if in Production you are allowed to go up then down should be okay also. REALLY I don't think either should be allowed.
-
How can you produce documentation for a 3000cc ZX14?
-
With Loring, Texas, Maxton, etc. why do you have to produce documentation?
DW
-
Well, I have dog in this hunt so I may as well weigh in. You can't criticise a person for following the rules. If the rules allow you to run up in class then why not. If you don't like the rules, then work to change them. And, I mean that with all due respect to everyone.
I've been racing at Maxton since 2007 with a stock Hayabusa (so, yeah, I'm a new guy). Last year I decided to get serious and challenge the P/P-1350/4 record held by Mark at ECTA and Ransom at Loring.
I went to Loring and was unable to break Ransom's 1350 record on Saturday. I tossed and turned all Saturday night and then it dawned on me, run on an open record. So I did and I got in the 2 club at 206 in the P/P-1650/4 class. Yes, I did get greedy and also set open records in 2000 and 3000 both over 200 mph.
Last October I went to Maxton and was able to break Mark's 1350 record by not quite one mph. So I legitimately got in the 2 club. Then on Sunday I noticed Slim had a 3000 record that was only 196. Well I just had to bump that up (sorry Jon). If I had enough speed to break Mark's other two records I might have gotten greedy.
If the rules change and we aren't allowed to run up in displacement class then that will be OK with me.
Mike
-
I have always liked the fact that ECTA allows you to run up in class. I wish the SCTA would allow it. If someone saddled with a disadvantage can set a record then IMO they have earned it.
-
I doubt if you will get much support from SCTA/BNI racers. It's tradition to build a vehicle for the class and includes the engine size. But you are entitled to run what ECTA allows. Just my opinion. Good luck.
-
Hi DW,
Per ECTA Rule Book. 2011 rule book, page 73, paragraph 7.A.3
Dan, I recently moved East, I spent a lot of weekends at El Mirage and a couple of weeks at Bonneville over the years. When I went to Maxton I adapted to their way. I NEVER said or wrote that the ECTA should do things the way of the SCTA. Frankly, there seems to be a whole lot more common sense things being done running the show and the atmosphere is more to my liking.
Everyone on this board respects the SCTA and what it has done, is it possible for you to show the same to the non SCTA venues? Your constant back handed or out right negativity gets really boring.
John Ritter
-
I was referring back to the original question (anyone remember that?) which, I thought, was answered no -- but it's yes.
-
John,
It is not just me to whom you are referring. I respect the ECTA way of doing business. In fact, I have attended an event as a guest and enjoyed myself. If the rulebook allows running up class, personal certification, etc. so be it.
I am able to express my opinion as a citizen, see I can fall back on that card too. If I see something I don't like you will hear from me, it is personal opinion after all.
DW
-
Well what is confusing to me is several years ago we were at Maxton with a street legal 1974 Yamaha RD60 using it as a pit bike. The RD60 was manufactured with a 55cc engine. I ask if I could sleeve it to a 50cc and run Production and Keith said no, there was no point in signing up for the 100cc class that day. Later we brought it back sleeved to 49cc and ran Modified which was appropriate. I thought (I could be wrong, I am getting old) I was told that Production had to run the class the engine size fell into as manufactured.
Now, in Modified we have run higher classes than our actual engine size at Maxton and we are okay with that but HOW CAN YOU PRODUCE DOCUMENTATION for a bike that never existed. There is no 100cc Aprilia. Just seems wrong but with no inspection/measuring/etc I guess this is going to happen. Again if in Production you are allowed to go up then down should be okay also. REALLY I don't think either should be allowed.
Here is why (I think) the answer is yes and no. It all depends if the changes you make to a production bike cause (or do not cause) the bike to no longer be a production bike.
Yes you can run up in displacement with a production bike. (But it must be a 100% production bike)
No you cannot increase (or decrease) the displacement of a production bike to move up a class or down a class because that will cause the bike to no longer be a legitimate production bike.
In the case of the 55cc bike, it naturally fits into the 100cc production class (51 to 100cc). If you do not increase the displacement beyond 100cc (and you meet all the other Production Bike requirements) you can run in the 100cc class and you can (with ECTA) run-up in the 125, 175, 250 etc., etc production classes. Why? Because it is still a production bike and you are just taking advantage of the ability to run up in engine class.
However if you or change the displacement and it falls outside the natural engine class size for your (as produced) bike (either less than 50cc or greater than 100cc) . . you are no longer a production bike. Therefore, you would be trying to run up in production classes with a Modified Bike. That you cannot do.
Now . . . in the car production classes it is different. You can change the displacement and move up or down in class. Let's say you have a car that came only with a 283 ci v8. If you kept it as a 283 that would put you into D/P (261 to 305 ci). You can legally sleeve or de-stroke to 260 ci and legally run in E/P. And with the ECTA, you could then take your production class E/P car (with its under-sized D engine) and run-up in class in AA, or A, or B or C or D Production.
Clear as mud . . .
-
Bikes --
Now let me see . . .
If you run up into a class you don't belong to -- say 50cc to 60cc -- you're illegal. But if you have a 50cc and say it's 100cc it's legal.
But then nobody measures anything.
I get it. Makes sense to me. How 'bout you?
Stan
-
I fully understand and support the running up in displacement class.
To me if the same body class car with say an E motor can run and get a D, C, B, A or AA motor record,, then that is cool.
If I had the D/CGALT record and a legitimate E/CGALT car up displacement classed and got my record, I would congratulate them and then figure out how my bigger D motor just got out ran by a littler E motor.
Maybe I am not as clear as mud,,, oh well let's get to Loring and set a few more records...
We are leaving Wednesday morning for the 22 hour drive up there..come join us !!!
Charles
-
We're talking bikes here, which are different -- I think.
-
I still cannot understand how any LSR Org. can allow you to set "records" without certification of displacement size......racing on "personal integrity"....sound more like a social club....................
Just like DW. this is a free country and we are allowed to express our opinion even if some on this forum don't like it.................so there...............................................................................................
Enjoy your ride John Ritter......
I find many faults with the SCTA...especially in the area of LSR sidecar racing....but 99% of the time they get it right...............and people like DW. make it work...................................................................
-
Bikes --
Now let me see . . .
If you run up into a class you don't belong to -- say 50cc to 60cc -- you're illegal. But if you have a 50cc and say it's 100cc it's legal.
But then nobody measures anything.
I get it. Makes sense to me. How 'bout you?
Stan
Stan what is your obsession with ECTA allowing integrity? why do you harp on the fact that we do not measure engines?
If you come run with us and set a record and then someone breaks your record, you do have the right to protest and we will measure and "confirm" the stated engine size.
I am in no way saying other venues lack integrity or have cheaters, but your obsession with our trust and honor system seems to point in a direction that you "may feel" that about other venues that do check ?
But then again it is clearly evident that anything East of Utah rubs you the wrong way, and for that I feel sorry for you. There are a bunch of very fine racers out here, many have not yet ran on the salt, some have and some of us are just waiting for the opportunity...
You are welcome to trek out East and join us for some fun, you will be treated with dignity and respect, we can only expect the same when we play in your sand (salt) box.
These forums should be a venue to come together for fun and knowledge, not a forum for one up-manship between venues.
Life is good, let's drink it up.
Hope to see you some time.. I am sure we will have a lot to talk about whilst we have a few drinks
Charles
-
Charles --
Just personal experience here.
We twice had our Bonneville record taken away by two different ECTA racers of "integrity" who showed up at smaller salt meets running their vehicles in illegal configuration they had been forewarned about.
Took some doing, but after the pictures hit the internet, they both lost the records (and, perhaps, their 200 Club memberships).
That's my experience with them. Your salt experience, when it comes, may vary.
Stan
-
I agree that records do need to be verified not just taken at the racers word. If taking off cylinder heads is too mcuh of a bother for you then I think you should not be racing.
-
So I guess I should just not race at ECTA events?
-
So I guess I should just not race at ECTA events?
Sabat,
I presume Stan is referring to class legal configurations,,, not engine displacement,, ie body classification.
Clearly we are talking about engine inspection/verification,,, I think the issuse Stan used in his last post was to deflect more of his disdain towards ECTA... as those issues if I recall had to do with improper classification or the likes,, NOT ENGINE SIZE.
Charles
-
Charles --
That had to do with integrity.
Stan
-
Ouch!!! :-o
-
Charles --
Just personal experience here.
We twice had our Bonneville record taken away by two different ECTA racers of "integrity" who showed up at smaller salt meets running their vehicles in illegal configuration they had been forewarned about.
Took some doing, but after the pictures hit the internet, they both lost the records (and, perhaps, their 200 Club memberships).
That's my experience with them. Your salt experience, when it comes, may vary.
Stan
So they show up knowing there was something wrong with the vehicle . They where prewarned you say. But Somehow got to run and got to set a record. BUT then on the internet some one looked at a photo to SEE the rules violation.
That sounds like a problem with tech inspection It has nothing to do with engine size.
-
Tech does not check for class compliance. Set a record and there will be more than enough people checking for compliance on the salt. :cheers: Tony
-
Charles --
Just personal experience here.
We twice had our Bonneville record taken away by two different ECTA racers of "integrity" who showed up at smaller salt meets running their vehicles in illegal configuration they had been forewarned about.
Took some doing, but after the pictures hit the internet, they both lost the records (and, perhaps, their 200 Club memberships).
That's my experience with them. Your salt experience, when it comes, may vary.
Stan
And that never happened in the SCTA?
Your comments are pathetic, your denigration of the ECTA and it's competitors are disingenuous.
Your comments reflect poorly on the SCTA/BNI membership and those who claim allegiance with you.
-
Tech does not check for class compliance. Set a record and there will be more than enough people checking for compliance on the salt. :cheers: Tony
Why not? At Maxton I check the safety item first .But I also look to make sure the class is right.
But I guess at Bonneville if someone goes faster than you .Then you make sure that all the safety wire has 28 twist per inch after the run? We have a rule that covers this at Maxton.
-
Mike --
"And that never happened in the SCTA?"
Yes, Mike, it did happen on an SCTA record, or Bonneville record as I referred to. It happened when run at USFRA meets where there are not as large a field of competitors as at SpeedWeek or even World Finals. Whether they chose those meets because of this, I don't know.
Mike -- you've been around a long time and know that inspectors aren't all experts in class compliance. And even Impound officials often check with Committee Chairmen for compliance issues. There are a lot of classes and a lot of different entries in some given class. There are not Altered inspectors, Blown Gas Coupe inspectors, etc.
These class compliance issues had been addressed at SpeedWeeks, yet these competitors chose not to abide with the advise they were given. One, in fact, altered his vehicle between shut-down and Impound.
I have not said that they represent ECTA competitors. I don't think so. But this is what happened. And one later ran at an east coast event with further modifications to his vehicle that were clearly not class compliant. My point is that counting on racers' integrity may not always give you the best results. We're all clearly not competing for the big bucks, but it's best for all when the playing field can be leveled (and dry).
Paula's got my number -- give me a call and I'll fill in any of the blanks for you.
Stan Back
-
Stan,
Maybe I just am a bit touchy about it. I've raced El Mirage, The Salt, and the ECTA. Yes The ECTA is a looser organization, I came from the Compliance and Routine of El Mirage and Bonneville, I found Maxton quite laid back.
I think a lot of what "isn't" done the way of the SCTA is lack of personnel. They don't have the personnel base of 12 Clubs to call on, nor the 60 years of Land-speed Tribal Racing Knowledge. So things aren't done the same way, The Keith Turk mantra is "if you cheat, it's on your conscience, you have to sleep at night, look at yourself in the mirror in the morning". Some people can do that.
Not Me.
You may have your opinion of the ECTA Racer, I hope you recognize we also have people who obey the rules and have the experience and integrity to compete on a level field with SCTA Racers at Bonneville.
Peace.
-
Only the ECTA recognizes ECTA records, so why all concern from the SCTA members? We have endeavored to rise to the standards and rules of the SCTA. The club has fostered a great deal of interest (and participation) at the Mecca of all that is Bonneville. Is integrity in such short supply as to cause all of this counter productive criticism of our way of racing? I will always value my opportunity to "run what I brung" and the chance to help and become a part of one of the most friendly group of mutually supportive people I will have ever met. How does this help LSR?
-
I love "Run What You Brung Racing". But to run that way and then call it in X/XX class is not the same thing. SCTA has a "Run What You Brung" class -- it's called Time Only.
I understand the limits in a smaller organization. I appreciate what the ECTA has done and is doing and hope they find a new home(s).
But we have raced SCTA for the past 10 years or so in a class that attracts 10 to 15 entries in just the one engine class. And have spent 10s of thousands of $$$ to stay competitive -- just for the prize money (right!). So when someone without integrity takes a record away -- wherever they're from -- they get scrutiny.
We pitted, in the last couple of years, next to one of the entrants I've written about here lately. They were well-rested and clean-shaven. Apparently they could sleep at night and look at theirself in the mirror.
I'm proud that I helped (I sincerely believe) the current record holder in our class put 15 miles an hour on our old record. Their car is straight-up class compliant. My only problem with it is that it has boucoo(sp?) more horsepower than we have.
Stan
-
Stan, this is just for you -
beau·coup (b k , b -, b -k ) also boo·coo or boo·koo (b -) Chiefly Southern U.S.. adj. Many; much: beaucoup money. n. pl. beau·coups
You're welcome.
-
... as opposed to beau coupe... a nice looking hardtop. :-D
Regards, Neil
-
Or a blue coupe, i.e. not red.
DW
-
And then there's Casper's ride, the Boo-coupe, and the Little Red Hen's mobile home, the Chicken Coop. Okay -- back to production class rules - or beau coup more silly little plays-on-words?