Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: maguromic on June 01, 2011, 06:15:27 PM
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I have been shanghaied into helping my neighbor and good friend since grade school build a gas coupe. Originally he wanted build it out of 2001 Camaro that he had with a blown motor, but soon cooler heads prevailed and now he is going to build it out of a Craigs List special 1991 Firebird. The car will initially run in “E” gas coupe and will be powered by a Chevy IRL engine he bought from me. I will be helping him, as time permits in-between the roadster build and work, so be patient on the updates. The good thing is I only have to walk next door to help on the car. Tony
Pre-Disassembly
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/car_1.jpg)
Interior half pulled, it is remarkably clean for a 20 year old car.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/car_10.jpg)
The “E” IRL engine
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/IMG_13331-forkliftsideshot.jpg)
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Nice motor!!
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Tony very cool motor..
What is the cubic inch and horse power and max RPM ?
Thanks
Charles
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Charles, Its a 3.5L, and on gas makes 650 hp and 720 on methanol. We were limited by RPM on the Indy cars to 10,500, but we can wind it up to 12,000-13,000 without any issues and make some more power. This is a link to the sister engine to this one that's in a hill climb car in Germany and runs on gas http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiTUrnRaZt8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MdolPd0WxA&feature=related The guy is an engineer for Audi and did all the dyno testing on gas and worked all the bugs out and is nice enough to share the maps with us. Tony
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WOW, Crazy videos!
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Came back from Speed Week and found this huge box in front of the shop with the new rear deck lid for my neighbors Firebird. I was lucky to find him the old Riley-Protofab part as it should add stability to the lexan rear window and keep it from deforming at speed. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/DSC05844.jpg)
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Cant wait to see this car take shape, the 01 camaro you talked about was it "Red"?
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Teaman, yrs truly's 'thinkin there's a whole world of possibilities for soon to be and previous obsolete IRL/Indycar motors for E and F classes.
Kinda like the surplus NASCAR motors that are vitually a requirement in C Gas anything .
If ya shop around they are probly just as cheap!
Neat thing is, the Indy engines are traditional "PUREBRED" racemotors, but, on second thought. dollar for dollar I'm expectin' the NASCAR stuff to be comarable, adding in all the engineering/r&d hours, etc, costwise!
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IB, Both the IRL and Nascar used motors are the best bang for the buck. You just cant build them for what you can buy one for, like you said the R&D on them is astronomical. I remember when Van Dyne had the Barbee boys ex Nascar engine on the dyno and couldn't believe the numbers that he was getting. The little IRL motors are monsters and if you force the air can get 1200-1300hp before they come apart. If any one wants I have some ex Eddie Cheever IRL motors cheap. Tony
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Cant wait to see this car take shape, the 01 camaro you talked about was it "Red"?
Yep, it is red. Tony
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Methinks you mean RPM, not HP!
Regards, IB
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I stand corrected its actually about 1100-1200 HP with turbos. They can handle about 30lbs of boost before the blocks blow apart. Tony
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What did he do with the car?
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He got rid of it on Craigs List, but don't know where it went. Tony
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He got rid of it on Craigs List, but don't know where it went. Tony
Thanks, I thought he still had it a friend of mine is looking for that style of camaro.
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To keep my neighbor happy, today my friend I finished the dry sump system for the 9". This is the second unit that I have done and we decided to make some changes to the spray nozzle and added a flow valve that can be adjusted without changing pills like on the previous one. Tony
Bench testing the pump.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/pump1.jpg)
Still need to build a shield for the front.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/pump2.jpg)
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Tony, that is a classy pump build.
Good job.
FREUD
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Thanks FREUD! I have some other ideas I want try on this project. Tony
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Better bring a supply of belts. If you have one it will get tossed.
DW
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Dan, Isn't that always the case. This is all of the shelf parts and we will have plenty of spares. Tony
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I have had a few PM's on the specs of the dry sump system.
-the pump is geared to turn 1250 rpm.
-the timing belt ratio is 72:22.
-the motor is rated 1/4 hp at 4100 rpm and 1/3 hp at 3600 rpm.
-40% of the oil going back to the 9" is returned back to the tank (this is adjustable with the flow valve).
-the spray nozzle is similar to a injection nozzle in that it sprays a fan pattern at the gears.
Tony
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Tony,
What gear oil do you use with this setup? Also do you run a filter of any kind
Rex
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Tony, what kind of realistic hp gains do you expect to get from this?
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Rex, I am leaning towards the same stuff we will be running in the transmission a synthetic 20-50. I am working on a rear end strategy that will include pre - heated oil and possibly different bearing sets and maybe some negative camber and toe in. But still need to work through all the scenarios to settle on the final strategy. I know you don’t like them, but maybe an Oberg style filter with a course mesh on top of the tank to catch the heavy particles and a real oil filter in the return line. Tony
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Buddy, I don’t know what the final number will be in HP, but if I can free up a few HP then its worth it for us. If you look at any modern day racecar where the rules allow, both the rear end and transmission are dry sumped. When Corvette went to Le Mans with the ALMS car, the 9” was dry sumped till they switched to the Hewland that had a internal dry sump system. They ended up selling the setup to Dollar Motorsprts (NASCAR truck team) and then were quickly banned by NASCAR from using it. If I were to guess I bet they still have it on their shelf and would make someone a great deal in this economy. Tony
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I need to learn about this dry-sumping of the rear diff. You have piqued my interest :cheers:
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I need to learn about this dry-sumping of the rear diff. You have piqued my interest :cheers:
Peaked too hmmm maybe even peeked,,, LOL
Me too ! I like that dry sump idea.
Charles
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Trent and Charles, The pump is very easy to build and most of the parts are off the shelf items, I have about $225 in the whole system. You just need to wok out the ratios you need and match the pulleys. The pulleys I used are from Grainger, but Rex mentioned today that he had a source for a more cost effective solution for pulleys than Grainger. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, most racecar transmissions and rear ends where rules allowed have dry sump systems (we ran a set up in the 24hrs of Daytona in the 80's and beat the thing to a pulp and it still held up). I think if you are very close to the record and need that little bit, this might give it to you. In my opinion if you plan on doing something like this, you should come up with a full strategy for the rear end rather than just adding this. Tony
This is the sump on our 9”
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/DSC05866.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/DSC05865.jpg)
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Thanks! Will be watching! That car with the really neat flip-out left side head restraint is the #1928 car. I will try and get pics from the driver, neat guy, we waited out some of the heat on sat afternoon.
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More along the lines of should be posted in the Tony's avatar thread, but hey - you must have already done this:
"you should come up with a full strategy for the rear end."
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Pictures will be coming in a couple weeks. I will try and post them up.
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Trent, If you are talking about the Hondata car, I have seen it and its a very nice set up. We wont able to do anything like that as the supports will be built into the seat (kind of like a DTM car). But I am still trying to figure out how far it has to come pass the helmet. The numbers I am getting are all over the board and even heard of one car at Speed Week that the inspectors wanted 2" pass the helmet, but later was overridden by somebody with common sense. I would like to get a definitive answer though. Tony
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Tony, it's in the current rule book: at least to the front of the helmet............. I wouldn't build them until I fit the driver in the seat.
A typical helmet is fourteen inch's deep and ten inches wide, so the padding on the sides (1" SFI) can only be twelve inches inside to inside, and the side supports need to be a minimum of fourteen inches from the front side of the seat back.............. Bob
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Trent, If you are talking about the Hondata car, I have seen it and its a very nice set up. We wont able to do anything like that as the supports will be built into the seat (kind of like a DTM car). But I am still trying to figure out how far it has to come pass the helmet. The numbers I am getting are all over the board and even heard of one car at Speed Week that the inspectors wanted 2" pass the helmet, but later was overridden by somebody with common sense. I would like to get a definitive answer though. Tony
Tony, no it is the car I mentioned a few posts back. I will post it in the thread talking about restraiants as well, great idea.
I have seen/heard a variety of numbers between a few of the cars I got to be around this year. And they varied from what Bob just posted above + AND -
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Thanks Bob, I just couldn't find it in the book. After reading the rules over a 100 times it all starts to look the same. Now its clear! :cheers:
Trent, Post a picture when you get a chance. Tony
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And since you guys know I am new to this game, all I am doing is reporting my first hand observations as I saw things on the salt this year. A fresh perspective if you will. I tend to be pretty objective AND think I have a small amount of common sense :-D Although the subjects in Tonys avatars could ruin all of the latter!
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The rule as written says the lateral supports must come forward to the furtherest point of the helmet.. so with the helmet up against the head rest,,, the side supports must come as far forward as the front most part of the helmet,,, which would be the chin bar of the helmet,,
so if the helmet is 14 inches long, the the side bars would be ok at 14.01 inch long. it does not say they side supports must be xxx longer.
Just my read on it !!!!
Charles
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Just reread it as well Charles, that is how I see it in the book. Ok, it is late here and later there and we are reading the rulebook for fun!?!?!?!??!?! I am so screwed, :-D you can thank my dad the hot rodder and racer :cheers:
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Tony, it's in the current rule book: at least to the front of the helmet............. I wouldn't build them until I fit the driver in the seat.
A typical helmet is fourteen inch's deep and ten inches wide, so the padding on the sides (1" SFI) can only be twelve inches inside to inside, and the side supports need to be a minimum of fourteen inches from the front side of the seat back.............. Bob
Bob, we only get 1" of clearance on each side of the helmet? I thought it was 2" per side?
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Tony, it's in the current rule book: at least to the front of the helmet............. I wouldn't build them until I fit the driver in the seat.
A typical helmet is fourteen inch's deep and ten inches wide, so the padding on the sides (1" SFI) can only be twelve inches inside to inside, and the side supports need to be a minimum of fourteen inches from the front side of the seat back.............. Bob
Bob, we only get 1" of clearance on each side of the helmet? I thought it was 2" per side?
Yes, 4" max=2" per side max.
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Today we almost finished cleaning the interior of the sealer, this has to be the worst thing I have ever done (its like watching an ant walk up a drape)! But on a brighter note I started working on the variable steering system. This is something I always wanted to try and with the multipurpose use of this car it will fit perfectly on this project. Tony
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Finally I was able to get all the part numbers together for everyone that wanted the parts to build the electric dry sump for the rear/ trans.
1 Two stage pump (mine is a Johnson HTP unit with a .800 gear)
1 12 volt electric motor (mine is a Vickers made in Italy part # 9919 123 90023)
1 needle valve -McMaster-Carr # 4995K15
1 72 tooth pulley (style B) - Grainger # 2L534
1 22 tooth pulley (style A) - Grainger # 2L523
1 Gilmer style belt - Grainger # DHJ5 (better carry a few extra)
1 Custom bracket for floor mounting
Aside from the above parts, you will need the nozzles, lines, oil tank with the proper baffles and the breather for the tank.
Hope this helps. Tony
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That's great-thanks Tony! :cheers:
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Here's another option on a 12 electric motor. Primitive but it works. Back in the day before electric water pumps, a very resourceful and fast Studebaker owner used a Chevy 6 water pump with it's 2 outlets drive by a Ford 12 volt starter. You remember the ones with the long shafts with the spring on the end? He used a vee belt about 1/3 overdrive which was near stock for the Chevy 6 and only a size #8 or 10 wire and remote solenoid. Never was a problem, never thru a belt, and supplied all the cooling water needed for the Blown Chrysler.......Just a thought.................Good Luck.
PS: my Tex trans came set up for a dry sump. Pump is between the main case and the rear case............... Looks great Tony
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JD, That's a great idea to use an old Ford starter motor. The biggest problem I had was to find a proper motor to turn the pump. Tony
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You've done it again Tony! Now everyone's going to fall totally off topic. :evil: :-D :-D
Pete
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I liked the previous one better PJ :evil:
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Pete, Sorry about that. But I think they are sisters. :evil: :-D :evil: Tony
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Pete, Sorry about that. But I think they are sisters. :evil: :-D :evil: Tony
We could tell if you made em bigger than postage stamps!
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I have those head restraint shots finally. You want them emailed or just posted here?
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Trent, Post them so every one can see. Tony
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Gerry who drives this car had me sit in it and try out their system. You can see a lever to the right of the seat by the fan. The side rest. is hed in place with a spring loaded pin. Pull the lever, tip your head into it and roll out. Works slick. You can see the add-ons required to make it big enough to pass tech. The inside has the SFI sheet padding.
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k246/surlytman/For%20sale/headrest3.jpg)
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k246/surlytman/For%20sale/headrest2.jpg)
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Trent,
I like it! Simple system.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Trent,
I like it! Simple system.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Dont give me credit! Talking to Tony tonight he admits he is even in the same club as that car and should have looked all along! :-o
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Trent,
I like it! Simple system.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Dont give me credit! Talking to Tony tonight he admits he is even in the same club as that car and should have looked all along! :-o
That's a great idea and something I will incorporate into the coupe. I didn't realize he was a Rod Rider till I noticed the sticker on the window. Trent, thanks for bringing this idea to my attention. :cheers: Tony
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Small world Tony, thanks for all your input on the phone! Have a laugh with Gerry at the next meeting! :cheers:
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Not much to add, other than we received the power steering pump (20.1 ratio) back after the changes we requested from CJR. They also ran it on their steering dyno and gave us some valuable information on the changes we made. This will be hooked up to an electric power steering pump and will be controlled by a wheel speed sensor and some programed logic that is adjustable from the drivers compartment. At low speed it will have power steering and at speed it will be similar to manual steering. The hard part was trying to get the correct torsion bar set up for the box first time around. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/pump.jpg)
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You have done too much road racing Tony. That is a lot of stuff for a 200 MPH LSR car.
DW
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DW, I agree its a little overkill, but I always wanted to try and incorporate electric assisted power steering on to a race car. The logic is done and now I need to build a small box for the board. The four small buttons on the board control the settings Tony
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Crazy! In a good way. But I assure you somebody will blame you Tony for escalating LSR into the realm of F1 :roll: :-D
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I hope the emergency people will know how to work the system if the ever have to!
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Crazy! In a good way. But I assure you somebody will blame you Tony for escalating LSR into the realm of F1 :roll: :-D
Trent, Its actually not that complicated and most of the parts are off the shelf. Most modern road cars use this type of set up, Mercedes, Audi and others. I am using a Toyota MR2 Spider electric steering pump from about 2002 from Pick A Part. The wheel speed sensor is from Corvette C5 and a Tyco 75A relay plus some black magic to make it all work together. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/SteeringPump.jpg)
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I hope the emergency people will know how to work the system if the ever have to!
I have full confidence that emergency crews can turn of the master switch to the battery. But why would they need to know how to work the steering system? :? If they can turn the steering wheel the tires will move unless its wrecked so bad its a moot point. Tony
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There you Mr Wizard, pulling the curtain back and revealing the illusion!
Crazy! In a good way. But I assure you somebody will blame you Tony for escalating LSR into the realm of F1 :roll: :-D
Trent, Its actually not that complicated and most of the parts are off the shelf. Most modern road cars use this type of set up, Mercedes, Audi and others. I am using a Toyota MR2 Spider electric steering pump from about 2002 from Pick A Part. The wheel speed sensor is from Corvette C5 and a Tyco 75A relay plus some black magic to make it all work together. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/SteeringPump.jpg)
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Today the car was steam cleaned in preparation for its trip to Sears Point for the cage and other major work tomorrow. I cant believe how clean the steam cleaner got the car, and what is even more amazing is there are guys like this that can do the work in Silicon Valley. When it seems like just about every machine shop has been drive out. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/car_1-1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/car_2.jpg)
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The car is at Sears Point and we will finally start the construction of the Firebird, and the first things we will do is add wheel tubs for 30" M/T's and move the firewall back for the engine set back. After that work on the cage will begin, but in the meantime one of the suspects working on the car started on the buck for the "A" pillar gussets. Tony
Two of the suspects contemplating on whether to notch the frame for the radiator.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rad_1.jpg)
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Today we almost finished cleaning the interior of the sealer, this has to be the worst thing I have ever done (its like watching an ant walk up a drape)!
Probably too late now to help Tony and it may have already been mentioned but I learned a great trick to remove body sealer and sound deadener.
Cover the floor with pelleted dry ice and leave it a while then pound on the floor some with a hammer or mallet. Most of the sound deadener simply shatters off the tinware. No stink, no heat, no gooey mess and not too much cleanup. You can always slip the pellets to the next floor section whilst you take out your frustrations on the one you've just chilled.
Cheers,
Rob
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Rob, Thanks for the tip! I will keep that in mind if I ever build or help build one out of a street car again. At Speedweek, Sterling (ATS on the board) recommended the Sap On Krud Thug, and from what some of the shops I talked to, they swear by it. Tony
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Tony, thanks for the plug, but that would be the "Snap-On Crud-Thug"! :-)
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I liked it better when it was "Sap", I figured he sucked in one of his mates to do the job :-D
I'll have to look it up now as you have me curious.
Cheers,
Rob
EDIT: Now I've seen the Crud Thug I still like the dry ice first with maybe the Thug as a finisher, it would appear that the thug will sling stuff everywhere??? Short videeo with English subtitles, couldn't find it in English sorry. It does look the goods for the finished product.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gm_JuOhwRk
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Just a slight variation on a knotted-wire wheel...
Yeah, slings stuff EVERYWHERE!
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Last week I was talking to an old friend Ashley Page about brakes for Bonneville and how we would like to tuck the calipers in the wheel and still have a stiff caliper and good stopping power in an emergency when he mentioned that he had few sets of the now banned in NASCAR Brembo speedway calipers. These were very limited in production that Brembo didn’t even have time to put together a spec sheet before they were outlawed. This should help clean up the aero around the front wheel, and be completely inside the rear wheel. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/brembo_1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/brembo_3.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/brembo_21.jpg)
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Those are sweet!
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I agree, sweet looking brakes. What's the story behind them being banned for NASCAR use?
Steve.
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Hey Tony, take a few of the bucks you guys are saving doing your own aerospace work and buy a new tape measure.............. or two. :-D
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Better still: I've got what seems to be a lifetime supply of them, winning them in the annual gift-giving dinner parties and such. Give me an address and I'll send one or two.
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Hey Tony, take a few of the bucks you guys are saving doing your own aerospace work and buy a new tape measure.............. or two. :-D
This is a rough crowd! :cheers: That's Ashley's tape measure :-o, I take care of my tools. Tony
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I agree, sweet looking brakes. What's the story behind them being banned for NASCAR use?
Steve.
In the days of a good economy one of the top tier teams contracted with Rapco (they build brakes for airplanes) to come up with a blade rotor and caliper system that could be used at Daytona and Talladega to cut down on drag. When Brembo got wind of it they also jumped in and started supplying a few teams with their version of the system for the two super speedway races. In trying to level the playing field NASCAR decided that the costs for the smaller teams were two high and banned them form use in competition. (for a one car team your looking at four sets and possibly more for just two races). Tony
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That tape is good. My Dad got along for years with the first inch cut off of his. A piece of black tape took care of the end up to the 3/8" mark. When it came time to cut the tape back to 2" I bought him a new one.
DW
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." In trying to level the playing field NASCAR decided that the costs for the smaller teams were two high and banned them form use in competition. (for a one car team your looking at four sets and possibly more for just two races). Tony"
Amazing how NASCAR is so concerned about the financial health of the small teams but doesn't even blink charging them $26,000 for each car set of the new EFI set up. And that doesn't include the special manifold!
Rex
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Rex,
How long before they mandate the control program to run the system and adjust the setup of the cars that are too fast? Then they will fine them for "Illegal software" after the race. Trust me, it's coming. NASCAR and NHRA have the same playbook. Thank you SCTA for giving the competitors some credit for keeping this sport affordable for the little guy.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Rex,
How long before they mandate the control program to run the system and adjust the setup of the cars that are too fast? Then they will fine them for "Illegal software" after the race. Trust me, it's coming. NASCAR and NHRA have the same playbook. Thank you SCTA for giving the competitors some credit for keeping this sport affordable for the little guy.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I agree on all points Doug!
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I love the way the commentators are touting how NASCAR has finally caught up with current automotive technology. What? Aren't throttle bodies sorta 1980s tech?
(Alert! -- Thread highjacking in progress!)
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I love the way the commentators are touting how NASCAR has finally caught up with current automotive technology. What? Aren't throttle bodies sorta 1980s tech?
(Alert! -- Thread highjacking in progress!)
Highjack away, its fun reading the comments! :cheers: Besides I am of to SOCAL today for work and some bench racing with friends. Tony
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Back..Give me a break...A throttle body EFI has the nozzle in the body..NECKCAR's nozzle are in the ports like all standard EFI's today not the 80's. The air intake and butterflies could be anywhere. The top way in was much cheaper than redesigning the air intake from the rear or front.
I have more fear for the drivers because of the high fuel pump pressure coming from the back of the car. You can already see a bigger fire problem coming. Guess they all need a impact device to turn off the pump....Wait a second...NECKCAR with no contact, what a novel concept.........JD
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JD --
That just shows how little I know about that (and other things).
Stan
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Jimmy,
As I understand NASCAR, opps! I mean NECKCAR, does have a system that looks at the cars attitude and any high G forces that does turn of the electric fuel pumps. 70 psi gas spraying out of a broken hose just doesn't appeal to me. I also understand that many of the mechanics and engine builders really don't care for EFI. So much potential to do wrong with EFI and I can bet you right now that the high dollars teams have a pack of "bit nerds" working on the ECU to see what they can get away with.
Rex
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Take a read through any of the motorcycle magazines that report on road racing if you want further information on what the computers can do with EFI and other engine parameters. They ECU is connected to all sorts of inputs including GPS - so the ECU can vary the tune up according to location on the track (out of a sweeping left turn onto a long straight might be different than out of a hairpin connecting to a short straight and then downhill, etc).
And NASCAR hasn't learned how to do that yet?
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And NASCAR hasn't learned how to do that yet?
NASTYCAR.
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After searching all over the place for some 18" steel wheels without any luck, Don Ferguson offered up his spare set of 18" from the ex-Hermoso turbine liner. Thanks to Don now we have two for the car plus two spares and one less thing to worry about. Just makes my mouth water looking at those Ardun heads stacked on the shelf by the rims. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/18_wheels.jpg)
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The whole picture is hot rodder porn!
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Nice score!
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Ferguson's is like looking at the McMaster and Carr catalog, if they don't have it you probably don't need it. If you ever have a chance to make the Rod Riders get together that they have at Fergusons some time, don't miss it. The amount of "Hot rod porn" they have is staggering.
Tony, any luck at All American Wheel?
Rex
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Rex, I went by All American Wheel and had a nice chat with their engineer and came to the conclusion that they wont work for our application. The biggest issue was the 100 + psi we are running in the rear tires. Also the center was a not stout enough for the projected weight of the car / wheel speed. But their stuff is really nice for smaller cars with less weight. Tony
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To cut down on bearing drag I finished modifying the main set of rear hubs for oil today. But I still have the front hubs and the spare sets along with the bearing spacers to finish. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rearhubs.jpg)
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Ferguson's? :? I don't know of it and can't find any Internet references...
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Don Ferguson. Google Ardun heads and you will find a link.
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It was a bit of a pain, but today I finished modifying the front hubs for oil and ball bearings. Next we will model the Ford 9" ring and pinion to see how much of a diet we can get away with and start on the rear-end. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/fronthubs.jpg)
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Is there a filler hole for the oil that we can't see?
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Trent, I still have to drill and tap the fill hole. Just not sure if I want to put it on the inside hub like the rear hubs or on the top cap like I have seen on others. Tony
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This last week I was helping a few old cohorts sort out a one of their customer’s cars at Sears Point. During that time they had a chance to look at the Firebird and give some good suggestions on the suspension layout that I will be implementing.
Today I started working on the fan shroud for the rear end and transmission coolers. This is really my first shot at doing fiberglass and I have been motivated by reading some of the other builds on here and how they did it. Tomorrow I will finish shaping it and get it ready to pull a mold. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/cooler_1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/cooler_2.jpg)
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It sounds weird but to do Dave's seat/dummy tank for his modified we covered the whole thing with cheep packing tape because the finish was nowhere good enough to wax or put release agent on.
We just glassed straight over that, took a bit of getting off, mainly because the shape wrapped back around itself in places. Saved a heap of work.
Useless info but it may help.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,10986.0.html (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,10986.0.html)
It's not me or Dave in the pic
Jon
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It was a bit of a pain, but today I finished modifying the front hubs for oil and ball bearings. Next we will model the Ford 9" ring and pinion to see how much of a diet we can get away with and start on the rear-end. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/fronthubs.jpg)
could you show how this is done. Is this a stock Camaro hub? thanks
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Actually its not that hard to do. You have to "O" ring the outside cap or plate and use a good seal with low drag on the inside and drill and tap for the fill hole. The front hubs are SCP supper speedway hubs (short track hubs are different) and take the Supper Speedway pin.
This is the rear hub and the front hubs use the same concept. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/o_ring.jpg)
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Jeez! Don't give away all the secrets! :-D :roll: vic
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Way to go making a fan shroud, it really makes the fan work. When doing a one off part, I usually will make the master from urethane insulation foam which really shapes nicely and can be sanded to a good finish with about 60 to 100 grit sand paper. Then use aluminum foil insulation tape (comes in 3"width) to cover the sanded foam (vacuum or blow off sanding dust first) and then paint the tape with PVA mold release (an alcohol based release agent). You can then fibeglass over the PVA. The part will come off the "mold" and the PVA is water soluble so cleans up easily. You then do a bit of sanding and maybe another layer of glass if you want the part stiffer in certain areas and you are good to go! :-D
You can also make the part directly on the body part you want to attach to and when you pop the piece off, you have a custom fitted part, no matter what the contour of the body part. (PVA on the body part as well so it comes off)
Hope that is a help to you and others who want to make complex parts quickly and accurately.
Matt Guzzetta
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Matt, That sounds like a good idea, I will try it. Tony
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Today I received the shocks to design the suspension around from Gentilozzi. They are from his Indy car team and are the Ohlins 4-way adjustable. These should work great on this project as we are leaning towards a push rod style suspension. Like the roadster some parts dictate how the others part will work, and in this case the suspension will be built around the shocks. Before we do anything I will dyno the shocks to get a baseline and go from there. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/TA_Shocks.jpg)
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What are the four adjustments?
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What are the four adjustments?
Jack, They are:
Low speed rebound - This helps with driver feel and helps keep the platform stable. Going too aggressive will make the car feel harsh and choppy, finding the balance here is the key.
Low speed compression (bump) - This will help with getting the tires up to temperature quickly. Basically it helps to control how the unsprung weight of the car is controlled. Ideally you want to run as much as possible to where the car is not unsettled on the lager bumps on the salt.
High speed rebound - This helps to control the spring and how the body is moving after hitting larger bumps. Here you want to run little as you have to so the car docent "jack down" while going down the salt.
High speed compression - Again here you want to run as much as you can get away with without going too stiff. If you set it up too aggressive the car can launch when you hit the bigger bumps on the salt.
Walking around the pits I here people complaining how the car did this or that and the salt is bad. In my opinion a majority of the time the car was not set up properly. Every time the salt is bad there are a bunch of cars that go fast and set records. hmm Tony
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What spring frequency will you be aiming for Tony?
Thanks
jon
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What spring frequency will you be aiming for Tony?
Thanks
jon
You are asking for all the secrets. 8-)
Since this car initially will be run in the Gas Coupe class, we are limited by aero aids and the setup will be a compromise of mechanical and aerodynamic grip. As you know there are many factors to consider and one of those parts is the tire info. I am still waiting for the tire company to give the rubber compound and / or carcass construction info. Though I think it's hard to know in most cars, as the suspension components and tire spring rates are very significant and too often ignored.
We went to great trouble to measure those factors in IMSA and Champcars. Since in this case we don't know the tire spring rate which will be a variable with speed or the chassis spring rate (and it's harmonic frequencies) , we really don't know a target frequency, and that's why the springs and shocks are adjustable. But if I were to guess I would say somewhere around 3.0-4.5 Hz. Tony
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More Guido parts! Shocking! :-D :evil: vic
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More Guido parts! Shocking! :-D :evil: vic
Socking indeed! :-D :evil: Tony
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I'm an old guy.
Tony and Krusty seem to be over engineering this shock rate, spring action, etc. stuff. Krusty has cred, Tony does too in other venues. I look forward to learning something new(to me).
DW
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DW, Its nothing new, just a way fine tuning the springs and shocks on the suspension and getting the correct relationship of spring rates to the tire vertical spring rate. The list of factors for properly selecting a spring is large and this lets us do it more easily. For us this is important as we are horsepower limited compared to others and only by optimizing things can we expect to be fast. This is the formula to get the natural frequency of one corner of the car. Frequency = (1 / (2 * Pi)) * Square root (Wheel rate / Sprung mass) For all you closet math freaks, this is a pretty good explanation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping
But there is a way around all this and its called horsepower as proven by one un-sprung roadster :-o :-o :-o Tony
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Tony,
I know all that. But, as you well know in salt racing we weld the axles to the frame and horsepower through the next issue. Not as sophistegted (sp) as you are used to but, the records continue to fall.
DW
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After contemplating building our own wheel tubs or using a modified trailer fenders, I was able to find a shop that could build us a wheel tub in 16 gauge. He was a little concerned about running it on his Pittsburgh and said he has done it before and the machine didn’t like him but he would get them done somehow by next week. They will be 18” tall and 17” wide; this should also let us run the Dunlop’s at Elmo without issues. Tony
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Tony,
I know all that. But, as you well know in salt racing we weld the axles to the frame and horsepower through the next issue. Not as sophistegted (sp) as you are used to but, the records continue to fall.
DW
I am in this camp, thanks Dan. But, I dig the hi tech sheeot that Tony is bringing to the table!
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I'm with you on that Trent. Tony brings a vast and varied background.
DW
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yea Dig Tony's build with the different asspects on suspension ect. plus he's got some cool giblets.
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Tony for a simple way to build a wheeltub have a look in my build, I got it tacked up from scratch in a morning.
I'm definitely with Tony on the suspension thing (although nowhere near the experience).
The only time you can drive forward is when the wheel has good down pressure on the salt.
For a relatively flat surface I would have thought a low frequency spring rate(softish) would be a help.
Sheer weight will help by making the tyres frequency lower if suspension travel is limited or none.
I have 0 experience on the salt though.
jon
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Jon, I have been following you build and did look at the way you built your tub. In our case our tub was bigger as we needed 3” of space around the tire to negate the tire shearing effect, and to top it off I don’t have a machine to do a Pittsburgh seem and to add to that I didn’t have the material and the trip to the track is 1 ½ hrs each way. Add the gas prices and running around for the sheet metal and a half day to make the tub, then the $190 the other shop wanted delivered to us from Colorado seems cheap. Tony
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3.5 to 4 Hz is gonna be kinda harsh, though.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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It is a little harsh, but it’s a starting point and a guess, as I don’t have enough information. Once the car is done and we have all the variables we may learn it’s more towards 2.5Hz. But like I mentioned that’s why we have so many adjustments. Tony
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Having followed this thread from the begining and being amazed at not only Tony's knowledge but at his apparent endless supply of friends with parts made of unobtanium, I always read his posts with amazement.
One disclaimer that I would like to make.
As Tony mentioned, we have current record holders that have nothing more than home built chassis with minimal suspension and no adjustments built in, thought of, or needed.
Why do I bring this up? Well its not to mock Tony, or deny all of us who are not savy enough or monied enough, rather to speak out to the newbies or guests on this site who, like me, were looking for a sport where "Rube Goldberg" racers can still afford to build and race whatever they dream up as long as it meets the rule book requirments for safety.
You don't have to meet any class requirments and can run as a Time Only vehicle.
Some of us who have built and race or raced "simple" or "basic" race vehicles may even scoff at Tonys builds as somewhat "nonsensical" in design or implication, but it is in my opinion entertaining and educational to read about and watch someone try a new approach in creating two diffenrent class race cars with knowledge gleaned from another type of motorsports.
If all this knowledge and ability creates positive results, I salute Tony and all involved.
If all this knowledge and ability doesn't create the desired results, I salute Tony and all involved for letting us follow his dreams and craftsmanship, attempting to reach out towards the cutting edge and try to make his dreams a reality.
If in the end the records are still held by low buck backyard built entrys, I think Tony like the rest of us Land Speed addicts will still be happy and proud of his builds.
Here's to you Tony, and here's to all the low bucker's who round out our amazing brotherhood. Bob
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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There is nothing unobtanium (maybe at one time) about the parts. From most venues you cant give away last years parts, and they are the best bang for the buck. Just take a look at engines C, D, E, F, There are so much of the older race engines out their that it wouldn't make sense to develop an engine program, you can get cup engines all day for 12K or less and an I have IRL engines from 9-15K. I am truly very blessed to have lots of friends in and out of racing that I can call on. But what really attracts me to the salt is in a given class there are just as many ways to go fast as cars. There is nothing low buck on the salt as we all spend more than we care to.
Bob, You old fart, I want have a beer with you and swap lies. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: Tony
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Tony, those who know me best will tell you that although I may not be the brightest bulb in the room, I can outlie or bullsh*t most everyone in the room................ Bob (and please, no lite beer or anything in clear or green bottles. I am a very discriminating conesour of malt beverages........ the cheaper the better).
:-D :evil: :roll: :cheers:
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I see where you are coming from Bob but I also see what Tony is saying. When folks hear what you are doing I have been amazed at the offers of parts and/or help. I even had a longtime Indy car crew chief take time on the phone with me and offer to help with our lakester. In the end it all boils down to rich or poor, we are all hotrodders in the end. :cheers:
PS, Tony's parts aren't unobtanium but his avatars are. Racing is MUCH cheaper :-P
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TMan go visit Joe Amo and ask him for a bottle of of AmoAle, Bottled by his brother Jon in a oil can. it's 30wt. with additives. True story. :evil:
:cheers:
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TMan go visit Joe Amo and ask him for a bottle of of AmoAle, Bottled by his brother Jon in a oil can. it's 30wt. with additives. True story. :evil:
:cheers:
Yes, I have heard that story! :-D
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Tman, Believe me, if it wasn't for the advice and help of others My car wouldn't have been built or ever raced.
And until Marlo Treit took me under his wing I was a canoe with no paddle.
I didn't intend to imply that Tony is able to build his projects only because he may have more money or friends with connections.
My intention was to both congratulate a guy who I really admire, but at the same time let the newbies or site guests understand that they can still build a race a vehicle on the salt without being as smart and crafty as Tony is.
Believe me, If I lived closer, I would be on his front porch every morning trying to leech any knowledge I could and of course keep my eye our for any wandering "avitars"!
Bob
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This is a good build diary, Tony. There are ideas I see here and nowhere else. That short post on low and high speed damping is an example.
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Tman, Believe me, if it wasn't for the advice and help of others My car wouldn't have been built or ever raced.
And until Marlo Treit took me under his wing I was a canoe with no paddle.
I didn't intend to imply that Tony is able to build his projects only because he may have more money or friends with connections.
My intention was to both congratulate a guy who I really admire, but at the same time let the newbies or site guests understand that they can still build a race a vehicle on the salt without being as smart and crafty as Tony is.
Believe me, If I lived closer, I would be on his front porch every morning trying to leech any knowledge I could and of course keep my eye our for any wandering "avitars"!
Bob
Thats how I read your comments.
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In our case our tub was bigger as we needed 3” of space around the tire to negate the tire shearing effect.
Do you have any data or rules of thumb on this Tony?
I've wondered wether close or distant is better, guessing that it is better to try and maintain a constantradius gap.
Is it worthwhile running moondisks inside a wheelweel?
Thanks
jon
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Jon, I don’t have any hard data, but when we were racing in IMSA the factory paid a lot of attention to it. The Ford engineers always told us to run 3” of clearance around the tire to minimize tire shearing.
A rotating wheel is a big pump and if the tire is too close to the side, then you have still air against the tire tub and the tire sliding by that air. If the gap were more instead of less, it seems to me there would be less "shearing" of the air and less drag. This is true in incompressible fluids and I don't see why it wouldn't hold true in air.
In our case one side of the tub was partially open to the air stream ad in your case you would have a fully enclosed tub, which might make a difference. It would be interesting if some of the stream liner or aero guys would chime in. Tony
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Thanks Tony, good info.
I dont have room to run 3" of clearance + both tyres will have yokes running quite close.
thanks
jon
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After contemplating building our own wheel tubs or using a modified trailer fenders, I was able to find a shop that could build us a wheel tub in 16 gauge. He was a little concerned about running it on his Pittsburgh and said he has done it before and the machine didn’t like him but he would get them done somehow by next week. They will be 18” tall and 17” wide; this should also let us run the Dunlop’s at Elmo without issues. Tony
18'' tall and 17'' wide that's the same size tubs as our 222 Camaro, but we have a little less air space :-D
JL222 :cheers:
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Finally had the chance to cut the rear wheel housing and get it ready for the new wheel tubs. Its amazing how quickly you run out of room once we started laying out everything inside the back half of the car. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/tub1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/tub2.jpg)
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After I posted about the gas cooler tank I built another thread I had a few PM's on it. The one I built uses parts I gathered at the local Hayward swap meet and was originally built for the REMR, but we are going to use it on the Firebird for now.
To get the cooling area, I modified a dry sump tank from a midget racer (its 8" round) and a topped it off with a fuel cell top. There is over 12 feet of tubing in the tank, and get it in and correct was the worst part of the whole thing. It took a few sticks of tubing before getting it correct. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/coolertank1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/coolertank2.jpg)
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Tony---Have you thought about taking this kind of Fabricating up for a career? :-D Just Saying...... :cheers:
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I did it for a long time and stepped away from it when I got married. I have a great wife and it wasn't fair to her me being on the road all the time. I did get to work with some of the best teams in professional auto racing and made some life long friends and have no regrets. Whats funny is I see some of the same cats (but older) on the salt. Tony
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Started working on getting the rear tubs in yesterday but it still needs some more trimming to raise it up to the correct spot. The angle iron in the picture is to make sure the tub is square to chassis, it will be removed once everything is welded in place. Next is cutting the firewall out and setting it back. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/reartub.jpg)
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It was a scorcher this weekend, despite that I managed to get some work done. After starting on the modifications to the rear/trans dry sump breather tank and almost dying of heat, I went over to my buddy's place to finish it (he has AC). Tony
This is the tank I started with, its an ex IRL breather tank I had lying around.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/catchcan_1.jpg)
Old tubes cut and the top modified.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/breather1.jpg)
New 12AN bungs, breather tubes and site tube fittings welded in (I should have cleaned and polished it better before welding)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/breather4.jpg)
Finally its finished with the breathers added.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/breather5.jpg)
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AC? Hell, we had a foot of snow last night, here in Blossburg, PA!
Tony, first class work, as we've come to expect from you! :cheers:
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Thanks Buddy, What I really like about working on the coupe over the REMR is the amount of space you have to work with. I started on the driver vents yesterday and it was a lot easier not to shrink them down to fit in a small space. Tony
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Yesterday I also started working on the vent filters for the drivers compartment. This was brought upon by sticker shock of what driver compartment filters are going for. One of the things we looked at was building some pressure inside the drivers compartment form the driver vents to keep the dust out at Elmo. To get enough air we have two big openings at the base of the windshield to pick up the air and funnel it inside. To filter the dust and other debris that might come in I am using a Briggs and Stratton air filter (they are about $3 each and the rite size). The whole system is connected with 3" hose and will also have screens on the ends.
Its done like a clam shell for maintenance ease and I was able to finish the first half yesterday. I will try to finish in the next few weeks and post the finished part. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vent1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vent2.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vent3.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vent4.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vent5.jpg)
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Today I had a chance to head up to the track and help work on cutting the firewall out of the Firebird. What I thought was a simple job became a chore as I had to take it apart in layers to keep it clean looking. We will set the firewall bake about one foot to accommodate all the engines. At the same time one of the suspects worked on fitting the new rear hatch to the car. It seems to fit fine, but we still need to tighten and optimize the tolerances.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/front1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/front2.jpg)
I will use the back glass as a template to build the Lexan replacement.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rear1.jpg)
Hopefully in the next few weeks we plan on getting the car on the chassis table and then the real fun will begin. I have some ideas on the cage design that I want to try out and will also include a driver seat box like the DTM cars. This should add a new dimension to driver safety. Tony
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Sorry Tony....What are DTM Cars? Am I missing something? I presume your Engine Setback will still make you Gas Coupe legal....I`m sure you already have some sort of Computer Program to optimise firwall design based on Aero....... :evil: :evil:
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DTM cars are German touring cars (Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters) and in my opinion when it comes to sedans they are on the cutting edge. The new rules package requires them to run a driver seat box to protect the driver in a bad crash. The best way to describe is its a tub that the seat sits in for driver safety. Those tubs are done in carbon fiber and they have a lot of engineering behind them, but there is no reason that something similar cant be done in aluminum that can also come apart for cleaning. We were always going to finish the interior, its just a a little more work to do it this way. Tony
This was one of the first cars to have the tub http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YelodRFABH0
This is an Audi DTM car and the driver tub taken from the net.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/AudiDTM.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/AudiTub.jpg)
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Tony, it's really marvelous that you bring your body of knowledge to LSR.
You do have the ability to apply previous experiences to this field.
It's a joy to see your progress.
FREUD
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I like it.............................especially after watching the video.
Pete
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those DTM cars leave a yardsale when they crash!
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Thanks, Tony. Interesting how the `Shred the car to dissipate energy`theory is certainly at work here. Certainly can`t argue with the result re driver safety, can you! I remember watching European Touring Car racing in New Zealand about a hundred years ago. The cars have changed a great deal since then..
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This is the same direction we are leaning towards and will cut out some of the inner structure of the car and hang the body by the cage. The hard part is anticipating all the scenarios and how the car will crumble in one of those scenarios. Tony
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How about a capsule fabricated from the same material as the rest of the roll cage and covered inside and out with sheet steel. It would probably be easier to make for most as compared to a carbon fibre structure and in most cases probably better engineered for safety.
Pete
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That is exactly what we are doing, but still haven't settled on aluminum or steel for the panels. It needs to also come apart for cleaning, the salt is not forgiving. It will probably be held together like the REMR tub and will use the same style of bobbins. That way I can just make one run of the parts. The carbon is nice but is cost prohibitive to do, and besides where on earth would you find an autoclave big enough. Tony
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The carbon is nice but is cost prohibitive to do, and besides where on earth would you find an autoclave big enough.
You obviously need a friend really high up in the commercial aircraft fabrication industry. :-D :-D :evil:
Pete
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Almost finished with the in-car vent filter system. The whole thing from end to end came out at just under 6 1/2" and I am happy with the way they turned out even though I would probably change somethings around for ease of fabrication if I built another set. I cant believe all the time it took to do this, but its worth it especially when the car runs at Elmo. That fine dust is a menace and nothing like clean air in the car. :-o Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vent6.jpg)
Buck for making the screens for the divers side vents.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vent7.jpg)
The finished driver side of the clam shell.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vent8.jpg)
High tech wood jig to get the tension correct for the latches.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vent9.jpg)
Briggs and Stratton filter
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vent10.jpg)
One filter done and one more to go, the next part is to get the legs fitted.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vent11.jpg)
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Tony...You have me very interested in your Cage/Drivers Pod idea. I haven`t bent any tubing for the cage in my car yet, as I am waiting for my engineer pal to dimension the car internally so we can `build` everything on his computer. He did that for the Nash Healey Vintage Racecar he is working on, and it really worked out well. He could turn the car around on the screen, add or subtract tubing, body panels and even a `modeled` driver with helmet. I`m sure you have done all that already, but it was a new approach, and a great idea, to yours truly.....
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Those look like you knew what you're doing! Lol!
Very nice, Tony! :cheers:
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KP, It wouldn't be that hard to incorporate the tub into your build. We are going to use the bottom pan of the car as the bottom of the tub and use steel and aluminum to build it out. Just get your friend to do the FEA on the shape and where to place everything and you should be fine. When ever I design a part of a car I remember what Jim Fueling (RIP) once told me "remember a fully loaded 747 takes off at about 185 MPH" :-o
Buddy, Nothing clever about the design on my part, I just copied the air cleaner housing on my truck (I have to thank the Ford engineers for the idea) :-D . Tony
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Finally finished them! After fiddling around with adding individual legs I decided to take the easy way out. There was no way I could get all four legs the same. Depending on how they look in the car I may re do the legs a little shorter, but I will have to wait and see till then. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vent21.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vernt20.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vent22.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vent23.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/vent19.jpg)
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Tony,
You need some belling dies!!! I make holes in every thing but always try to make sure I can form them with my belling dies. Just makes it look racy and it does stiffen the material. These are the belled holes on the rear crossmember of my modified.
Rex
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Rex, I wanted to do that, but I didn't take the flare set with me to my friends place where I started the build last week and I didn't want to drive half hour each way to go and get the flare set. If I can get the tool to fit in the back I will try and flare it, but its very small and tight and might not be possible. Tony
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Tony, I have researched to find your secrets.
It said......"Quality is job one."
Seems true to me.
FREUD
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Tony, your build just keeps getting better!
Just thought I might add a couple of notes of caution:
#1 Make sure you follow the rule book on under floor reinforcement as the cage is no better than the under seat tubing in a tumble.
#2 If you are building a tub, remember that we don't have all the safety equipment that Indy cars, etc. have to cut you out of a burning car.
Make sure that a jaws of life or a sawsall has access to the tub (holes for access).
Personally, I think arm and leg restraints, door nets, and roll cages beyond what the rules call out are a better way to go on the salt.
Although we have had some catostrophic accidents in the past, keep in mind that we will never hit a concrete barrier, light pole, safety cable, or another vehicle.
I would prefer to take my chances on impact with the emphases on getting my body out of the car quickly, especially if the car is on fire...................... Bob
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Tony, I have researched to find your secrets.
It said......"Quality is job one."
Seems true to me.
FREUD
Thanks Freud, It means a lot when it comes from a person that has documented one the best builds I have ever seen. Tony :cheers:
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Bob, Our cage design will far exceed the minimums outlined in the rulebook. As for the tub, it’s just a bigger version of the REMR tub and will be a driver safety pod. There is no special equipment required to open the tub, and egress with the tub is easier than without it.
The whole car will be designed to dissipate energy in an unexpected event. Everything from the suspension design to how the car body is hung on the roll cage will be optimized. It’s not only the tub but also how all the parts interact with each other that will drive the design. Tony
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Started to design the new "K" member and front suspension and realized that with the push-rod front suspension we wont able to run the stock style GM steering box. The new setup will have a manual (maybe electric power assisted) EMCO / Riley Technologies rack I picked up from the Gainsco DP team and for the ends I am going to make some ball ends like we are using on the REMR. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rack.jpg)
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Tony:
There you go again with the avatars. I have to check back to see the avatars...even if you have not updated the build! :)
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Tony, if you promise that the latest "Avitar Goddess" will lick the stamps, I will buy anything you have for sale............ even pocket lint.
Bob :roll: :-D :cheers:
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Bob, Pocket lint? Your killing me! :cheers: Wait till I get back at the end of the month, your head will spin. :-D Tony
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Started working on the rear window support struts, unfortunately nobody makes "T" bar in the specs I need, so this will have to be done the hard way. But first I made a simple dimple die for the 1/2" holes from some scrap I had lying around. Tony
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Anything here that might work? Arr http://www.myaluminumsupply.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=11&zenid=c7df4d0c5b99262cfe8a09a9c7e72b22
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Thanks Armond, But what I need is 2" x 1" x 1/8", its an odd ball size and it looks like I will have to fabricate it. Besides I think my homemade dimple tool will be at its limit at 1/8" . Tony
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Started working on the rear window support struts, unfortunately nobody makes "T" bar in the specs I need, so this will have to be done the hard way. But first I made a simple dimple die for the 1/2" holes from some scrap I had lying around. Tony
Just curious, what are you using this for? Are you replacing the original side struts that expand and contract? We have the original hardware on our Camaro. :cheers:
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Troy, We have a perimeter frame for the rear glass (its been approved by the coupe committee) that have three supports down the middle. Those supports are very flimsy and flex, so to prevent the flex from the aero loads I am adding support struts under the three fiberglass supports. Tony
Its not fitted yet and once fitted it will sit in the stock location and the Lexan will go to the edges like the glass on a stock car.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rear1.jpg)
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A picture is worth a thousand words. Nice set up, makes sense. :cheers: thanks for the picture.
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Hi Tony
Could you use 2 90 deg. bends and bond them together to make your T stock, either rivets or tack rosette weld them for your 3 T bars
Don
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Don, I was think along the same lines or the way was to weld the "T" together.
I also received a care package from Mike at Patterson consist9ing of some smaller scrap tank tops and bottoms. I will use these to fabricate the new bottoms and innards and modify the tops for the rear and trans tanks. Tony
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Tony, You're builds are always fascinating, well documented, and the fab work is great!
Always love reading these! :cheers:
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Took some time off work today and worked on the electronics for the steering wheel. Its an A1 GP wheel and I went through all the electronics to see if everything was working and tested the dash. The paddles will be used for the parachutes and the green button for the air shifter. The chassis table is finally clear and hopefully next week we will have the car on it and the cage can start. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/wheel1-1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/wheel2-1.jpg)
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You sir officially have the coolest toys.
Yes; that is a bit of steering wheel envy.
jon
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Jon, When the A1GP folded in 2010 allot of cool stuff became available very reasonable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A1_Grand_Prix I would bet there is a smorgasbord of trick stuff lying around at the Team Australia or New Zealand shops, maybe even that 8 station sensor your looking for. Tony
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Started working on the rear window struts and after several methods and trying I settled on what Don suggested, using two 90 degree pieces. Using my home made dimpling die it was two hard to do it without distortion the way I wanted to go. The new way the holes will be 2 1/2 on center and will work out perfectly on the long struts. Tony
This is a test piece.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/2012-08-03_16-48-01_251.jpg)
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Hi Tony
Looking good, how will you attach the 2 pcs together?
Maybe with a bit of polish & colored ano first?
Thanks for using the 2 pc idea.
Don
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Don, The 90 degree bends have a slight radius and when they are butted up next to each other it leaves enough of a gap to skip weld on the seem on top and still be able to keep it flush on the window, and the bottom seem will also be skip welded though I have to do it without drooling the weld down the sides. I don’t know about polishing it, but plans are for it have a clear or black anodize. Tony
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Finally finished up the rear window struts, there are six of these to make up the three struts. With the miter on the ends I was able to get 15 holes dimpled with my home made tool. I thought with the holes being 2 1/2 on center the aluminum would move around on me, but I was satisfied with the way they all turned out as I really didn't want to redo any of them. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/strut3.jpg)
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Hi Tony
Looking good with a little prep and some ano they will be first class.
Don
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Don, Some more pictures, it took a lot of clamping and time to do them without warping. One more thing to check off the list. Tony
The two sides before welding.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/strut7.jpg)
The top and the bottom side are skip welded to make up the strut.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/strut6.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/strut8.jpg)
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Not many, if any, ahead of you on the "Build Quality" list.
Great Job.
FREUD
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Tony:
If I could weld like that...oh well. Nice fab work.
Bill
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Tony:
If I could weld like that...oh well. Nice fab work.
Bill
I use to could weld like that then I got into management(not on purpose) oh well :-(
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Thanks Doc for the kind words. Bill and Captthundarr this project tests me more that the RMR as that one uses more CNC parts. In the next few weeks I want to finish the belt shrouds for the rear/trans pumps. The first set looked bulky and I scrapped them to build a more utilitarian looking ones. I think of the car as a big canvas and want everything to be perfect, in a way its a curse. Tony
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Hi Tony
Ya this perfect fabbing deal is i life long sickness, and tough to shake off.
Don
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Tony: What are some benefits of the Winters 9" vs. a typical Ford 9" from other sources? Also, is the Winters bearing pre-load different from a stock Ford? Does the dry sump allow you to use a different pre-load than stock? Oh, so many questions . . . :-)
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Tony, first class work as usual!
Nice chatting with you the other day-I really appreciate the dry sump info! :cheers:
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Saltfever, The reason we have a Winters housing is it was lying around the shop, other than being able to remove the axle tubes easily on the Winters housing there aren’t any difference between any other Ford 9” housings. We will have two rear ends for the car; one is the 9” for Elmo and a 10 bolt for Bonneville.
Our preload is based on a few factors: we use a modified Timken bearing set that comes from one of the cup teams. The Gleason gears we use are further modified by EMCO, which lets us use preloads to use the most efficient part of the tooth. Lastly the oil and the oil temperature play a roll also.
The dry sump lets us control the oil and temperature better. It doesn’t make horsepower, but frees up robbed horsepower. It’s the same principle as a dry sump system for the engine.
Another area you can make some good gains is by optimizing the drive shaft angles. You want the drive shaft angle to be at the optimal plane at speed rather than at static like how most cars are set up with. Back in the day on our IMSA car at the 24hrs, our data showed the aero loads on the car at speed would take the drive shaft angle out of phase robbing us of speed, and that’s always stuck with me.
Buddy, Its always fun talking to you. Tony
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I think I asked you this before Tony...............what would it take to homebrew a drysump for the rearend?
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I think I asked you this before Tony...............what would it take to homebrew a drysump for the rearend?
Trent, Other than time these are the specs and parts list from one of my previous posts, the hardest part was the 12-volt motor. I believe Vickers is now part of Eton, so you could probably cross reference the part number.
Specs
The pump is geared to turn 1250 rpm.
Timing belt ratio is 72:22.
Motor is rated 1/4 hp at 4100 rpm and 1/3 hp at 3600 rpm.
40% of the oil going back to the 9" is returned back to the tank (this is adjustable with the flow valve).
The spray nozzle is similar to an injection nozzle in that it sprays a fan pattern at the gears.
Parts List
1 Two stage pump (mine is a Johnson HTP unit with a .800 gear)
1 12 volt electric motor (mine is a Vickers made in Italy part # 9919 123 90023)
1 needle valve -McMaster-Carr # 4995K15
1 72 tooth pulley (style B) - Grainger # 2L534
1 22 tooth pulley (style A) - Grainger # 2L523
1 Gilmer style belt - Grainger # DHJ5 (better
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Many thanks, Tony for continuing share your information. Great tip on driveshaft angle. :cheers:
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These are the finished belt guards for the trans/rear end pumps. Even though it seems slow, its moving forward. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/screen1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/screen2.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/screen4.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/screen5.jpg)
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Looking pretty ' SANO ' there dude, a little ano and ready to fly, oops i guess i should say go fast.
Don
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How are these shielded from the salt? Are they inside the car?
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I think I asked you this before Tony...............what would it take to homebrew a drysump for the rearend?
Trent, Other than time these are the specs and parts list from one of my previous posts, the hardest part was the 12-volt motor. I believe Vickers is now part of Eton, so you could probably cross reference the part number.
Specs
The pump is geared to turn 1250 rpm.
Timing belt ratio is 72:22.
Motor is rated 1/4 hp at 4100 rpm and 1/3 hp at 3600 rpm.
40% of the oil going back to the 9" is returned back to the tank (this is adjustable with the flow valve).
The spray nozzle is similar to an injection nozzle in that it sprays a fan pattern at the gears.
Parts List
1 Two stage pump (mine is a Johnson HTP unit with a .800 gear)
1 12 volt electric motor (mine is a Vickers made in Italy part # 9919 123 90023)
1 needle valve -McMaster-Carr # 4995K15
1 72 tooth pulley (style B) - Grainger # 2L534
1 22 tooth pulley (style A) - Grainger # 2L523
1 Gilmer style belt - Grainger # DHJ5 (better
Tony, where can I get the spray nozzles from?
Thanks!
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How are these shielded from the salt? Are they inside the car?
They sit inside the car.
Buddy, I made mine, they are a copy of a Hilborn injector but bigger. Just make sure you have the 45 degree cut to get the oil to fan out. Also the nozzle placement is crucial. Tony
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Wonder if a spare fire system nozzle would work? Hmmmm
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It might be a lot easier, cheaper, and more predictable to buy a nozzle than to make one--check out www.teejet.com and/or local ag supply house.
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It might be a lot easier, cheaper, and more predictable to buy a nozzle than to make one--check out www.teejet.com and/or local ag supply house.
I looked at the ag stuff they are nice, but the problem with them is the "banding style spray nozzles" I need were too big. The shortest ones available are 4" and I just don't have that kind of space to work with especially on the transmission. Tony
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Here is the 45 degree Tony is talking about. Hilborn nozzles run $30-$45 each. My, how prices keep going up! :-(
Hilborn's selection of orifice size is extensive so it shouldn't be too hard to find one large enough. But as Tony indicated their body size may be a limiting factor for your design. If you wanted a high quality, ready made part, I would check Hilborn before you picked up your hacksaw and file. :wink:
http://www.hilborninjection.com/category.asp?Id=220
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Tony,
Not sure what you looked at, or exactly what you or others are looking for, but it seems that one of the versions (pdf attached) below would come pretty close to what's needed.
(Haven't attached files before, I hope this works)
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I looked at something similar and they look like they would work. But on my set up I have a manifold for the transmission with AN8 fittings and once I add the adapter from NPT to AN on those the length gets too long. Besides I am cheap and they are not that hard to make, in a few hours I had a bunch them finished (one for the rear end and three for the transmission with a few spares).Tony
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Its a small part, but thanks to one of my neighbors who is an ex GM designer (who loves the salt), he was able to get it done far better than I could of (I am just not cut out for mold making). This is the pod for the roof antenna, the hardest part was getting the radius on the flange correct. We wanted to keep a small footprint, the results were very tight tolerances. Tony
The first clay model.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/basecover1.jpg)
The clay is sealed, though you can see some imperfections still. Hmm, kind of has that drop tank profile.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/basecover2.jpg)
The imperfections are now fixed and ready to pull a part.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/basecover3.jpg)
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Looks good! It kind of looks like the headlight replacements John K. made for us!
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Finally we were able to get the car on the chassis table this week. It was a long time coming, and this is a big step in getting the cage and all the suspension worked out correctly. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rack1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rack2.jpg)
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Looks great :cheers:
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Thanks Glen!!! It will sure make things a lot easier and more accurate. Started building the jig to fab up the lower control arms and it was like a luxury with it in the air. Tony
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Not much here but the modified bottoms of the two dry sump tanks for the trans / rear, each one has two heater probes and a thermocouple (its a small tank 6" in diameter and about a 12" tall). All that is left to do for this setup is to fab up the fan shrouds for the two coolers and the adapters for the oil filters which Kevin is working on. Then we can cross this off the list. On a side note, I have lots of Watlow heater probes and a few Omega thermocouples for sale. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/tankmod.jpg)
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What is the thought on the lower aero valances on that car vs. the earliwer ones w/o it? And the newer style nose?
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What is the thought on the lower aero valances on that car vs. the earliwer ones w/o it? And the newer style nose?
It only maters in GC, and IMO the 91 nose (there are 4 different noses for this year from the factory) is better for aero, but the rear spoiler, wheel vents and skirts on the earlier model Firebird's are much better than the '91 and could be exploited to off set the failings of the earlier nose. For our '91 we will use shapes in the new suspension to move the air around to make up for the lack of wheel vents. Tony
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Tony,
On your tank heaters, are the in direct contact with the oil? I ask this because heaters that are in direct contact with the oil can cause the oil to burn and contaminate the oil if their watt density is to great. Having done many hydraulic systems that had fairly large heaters we quickly learned that to keep from burning the oil we would typically install the heater into a "well" which consisted of a fairly large piece of capped pipe that was welded into the reservoir and the heater rod was installed in this well. It greatly increased the surface area which of course reduces the watt density of the surface that is in contact with the oil but you still get the same amount of heat into the oil just not a high local temperatures.
Just a thought.
Rex
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Bob, as a newbie I couldnt agree more with what you wrote. I just got done reading the whole build ( along with some other build diaries ) and I must say while its very facinating to read, it sort of is a bit scary and intimidating. I come from a drag racing background and have an idea of what Id like to build LSR wise in the next few years ( a gas roadster, street roadster or lakester havent quite narrowed it down ) As I am reading and see an IRL engine being utilized for power and hearing that some cars have ex NASCAR engines in them, I get to thinking my little 650 HP 394 ci SBC drag motor is gonna be like bringing a pee shooter to a gun fight. It wont stop me from eventually putting something together but at the same time I know Ill be lacking in the hp deparment as it stands.
Tony, im looking foward to reading future updates. Like I said, its kinda scary but it sure is awesome at the same time.
Having followed this thread from the begining and being amazed at not only Tony's knowledge but at his apparent endless supply of friends with parts made of unobtanium, I always read his posts with amazement.
One disclaimer that I would like to make.
As Tony mentioned, we have current record holders that have nothing more than home built chassis with minimal suspension and no adjustments built in, thought of, or needed.
Why do I bring this up? Well its not to mock Tony, or deny all of us who are not savy enough or monied enough, rather to speak out to the newbies or guests on this site who, like me, were looking for a sport where "Rube Goldberg" racers can still afford to build and race whatever they dream up as long as it meets the rule book requirments for safety.
You don't have to meet any class requirments and can run as a Time Only vehicle.
Some of us who have built and race or raced "simple" or "basic" race vehicles may even scoff at Tonys builds as somewhat "nonsensical" in design or implication, but it is in my opinion entertaining and educational to read about and watch someone try a new approach in creating two diffenrent class race cars with knowledge gleaned from another type of motorsports.
If all this knowledge and ability creates positive results, I salute Tony and all involved.
If all this knowledge and ability doesn't create the desired results, I salute Tony and all involved for letting us follow his dreams and craftsmanship, attempting to reach out towards the cutting edge and try to make his dreams a reality.
If in the end the records are still held by low buck backyard built entrys, I think Tony like the rest of us Land Speed addicts will still be happy and proud of his builds.
Here's to you Tony, and here's to all the low bucker's who round out our amazing brotherhood. Bob
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Frankie, there have been some pretty smokin deals on VERY high end engines here int he classifieds. Tony has had several for sale. I also just found a factory Nissan setup that could be a great base for 1000hp, cheap $2500 NOS from an Indy/CORR engine builder. Lots of ways to skin a cat.
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Rex, You don't miss a beat! Stop giving all the secrets away. :cheers: Its hard to see, but on the bottom of the tank you can see the outer part of the "well" for the heaters. I have a 500w and a 400w heaters of which only one will be used. The second one is for a backup as I really don't want to pull the tank out to replace a heater on the salt or lake bed (for me there is nothing worse than working on a race car at the track). Though it looks like it may have a "well", for obvious reasons the thermocouple is not in a "well". Tony
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Tony and Rex, Maybe I am confused on your tank heaters, but I know that mine look exactly like standard Hot Water Heater Elements.
If in fact they are, they will burn up if not immersed in liquid, beleive me I know (H2O ones anyway).
Just curious on this and hope you guys can straighten me out......... Thanx, Bob
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Bob, If you are using an “element style” heater it can cook your oil and cause oil breakdown (the chart below shows the three main ways oil breakdowns) with the most common being oxidation. Even though there are a few factors that contribute to this, the most critical is temperature. That’s why you want a covering to minimize the effect.
I use Watlow, Firerod cartridge heaters with a Watlow 93 controller http://www.watlow.com/products/heaters/firerod-cartridge-heaters.cfm These have the heating coil covered in insulation as not to contact the sheath which is made out of Incoloy 800. One thing to keep in mind, which ever set up your using is to size it properly. You can do this by using the watt density formula.
Watt Density = W / (Π x D x HL)
W = wattage
II = pi (3.14)
D = diameter
HL = Heated Length
I think this is the correct formula. Some of you engineers on here would know better than I would. I know when we use to road race we would always take oil samples after each session and look at it under a microscope to see how the oil was behaving. Tony
From Machinery Lubrication
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/oilchart.gif)
Watlow 93 Controller
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/watlow.jpg)
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Thanx Tony, now I have one more thing to worry about!
:-P :-P :| :-o :-o Bob
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Let me clarify it a bit, watt density means the heat flow rate or surface loading. It is the number of watts per square inch of heated surface area. The controller is used to set the temperature as not to over cook the oil. I am making a box up with three of the controllers that is external with leads to the three systems I am running which is part of our starting procedure. Tony
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Let me clarify it a bit, watt density means the heat flow rate or surface loading. It is the number of watts per square inch of heated surface area. The controller is used to set the temperature as not to over cook the oil. I am making a box up with three of the controllers that is external with leads to the three systems I am running which is part of our starting procedure. Tony
That is exactly right-- watt density is all important. That's why the rod heating elements are not a good idea-- to prevent burning the oil with those heaters, the heat input needs to be low so it takes a long time to heat a whole dry sump tank. The best heater is a patch style made by Watlow Electric, Minco, etc. they distribute the heat over a very wide area so no one spot gets hot enough to burn the oil. These types of heaters attach to the outside of the tank with a high temperature adhesive-- some are even stick-on types. The heater element is nichrome wire or thin-film nichrome sandwiched between silicone rubber or Kapton film. The last time I checked they were available in a wide range of sizes, wattages, and voltage ranges.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Or you could put a mini drysump pump on the tank to circulate the oil during the warm up time. That way no oil would dwell on the heating element. Note, I'm not specifing the kind of device to circulate the oil. Isn't it fun to add even more complexity! :-D
Even with Neil's idea, there is very little convection to "stir" the oil and I found heating is still quite localized. That is why it is good to drive the pump with a hand drill every once in a while to stir things up.
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Let me clarify it a bit, watt density means the heat flow rate or surface loading. It is the number of watts per square inch of heated surface area. The controller is used to set the temperature as not to over cook the oil. I am making a box up with three of the controllers that is external with leads to the three systems I am running which is part of our starting procedure. Tony
That is exactly right-- watt density is all important. That's why the rod heating elements are not a good idea-- to prevent burning the oil with those heaters, the heat input needs to be low so it takes a long time to heat a whole dry sump tank. The best heater is a patch style made by Watlow Electric, Minco, etc. they distribute the heat over a very wide area so no one spot gets hot enough to burn the oil. These types of heaters attach to the outside of the tank with a high temperature adhesive-- some are even stick-on types. The heater element is nichrome wire or thin-film nichrome sandwiched between silicone rubber or Kapton film. The last time I checked they were available in a wide range of sizes, wattages, and voltage ranges.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
I sell 3 sizes of those external heaters and am looking at incorporating one into our car at some point.
Thanks for the input "guys that know more than me" I learn something here every day.
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We ran a Watlow Electric patch heater on the dry sump tank of Bob's McLaren M8C; it took overnight for the oil to come up to temperature. Of course you could heat it up in a big container on a stove and pour the oil into the tank if you're in a hurry. Not recommended, though.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Yeah, Neil, I agree and like the pads the best. But you just made my point. The lack of convection makes for that long warm-up time. Introducing some turbulence greatly reduces the warm-up time.
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Or you could put a mini drysump pump on the tank to circulate the oil during the warm up time. That way no oil would dwell on the heating element. Note, I'm not specifing the kind of device to circulate the oil. Isn't it fun to add even more complexity! :-D
We will circulate the oil with the electric pumps every so often on the trans/rear, and on the main tank we also have a pump (its a single stage version of what used for the trans/rear). I will post a picture of it later today. Tony
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This is my circulation pump for the main tank, its a single stage pump with a .200 gear. I am still trying to figure a way to cycle all three automatically while in warm up mode without someone having to toggle the switches every 5 minutes. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/mainpump.jpg)
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Hmm.....Toggle Switch Circulation Technician? As a current Tech Inspector, I may almost qualify for that position. Perhaps I can apply? There are some on here who wouldn`t grant me, or any Orange Hatted human, even an application form, let alone an interview.....
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Tony, I love that electric oil sump idea-I've got the ele ctric mptor, and I'm going to build a similar on for the tranny and rear end, using a 4 stage pump to handle both jobs. Thanks! :cheers:
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Hmm.....Toggle Switch Circulation Technician? As a current Tech Inspector, I may almost qualify for that position. Perhaps I can apply? There are some on here who wouldn`t grant me, or any Orange Hatted human, even an application form, let alone an interview.....
Funny Paul! But wouldn't it be more like 3 orange hats looking at said toggle switches, one disputing the length of the switch, one disputing the placement and one wanting to see the specs of the switches?! :-D
I jest :cheers:
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That ^^^^^ was funny, really.....
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. . . . and a unanimous request to take a picture of the switch and be sure both the pic and spec are in the log book for next time. Sorry Tony, I just couldn't help myself :-D
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Apologies to KiwiPaul and all the tech inspectors, if we can't pick on you who CAN we pick on!? BTW, as I typed that I had just come off a long phone talk with one of the tech inspectors (Nate) clarifying things I am doing. No need for a conspiricy Bob (Drury) :-D :-P
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For all the inquiring minds, I mainly use Honeywell MS24524-23 switches, and just in case we will carry this data sheet http://download.siliconexpert.com/pdfs/2004/0802/pemco_b/1/hnw/qd/tl_series.pdf in our log book :-D. This is a rough crowd. :cheers: Tony
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Excellent choice of switches, Tony.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Just got myself a new digital point and shoot yesterday....made sure the Zoom gets up really close so as to get them there switches in focus..... :lol:
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Tony's zoom works far better on his avitars! :-D
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The rear / trans oil cooler boxes are finished to fit the fairly small coolers at 6" x 6". Part of our oil control strategy for the trans / rear is the oil temperature be fairly constant, the fans will be controlled by a thermostat switch as not to over cool the oil. The milestones are coming, though in small steps. Tony
Most of it was able to be done on a brake requiring only four seams to finish it off.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/oilcooler1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/oilcooler2.jpg)
The two coolers are timed out take offs from a ALMS Porsche.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/oilcooler3.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/oilcooler4.jpg)
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Tony;
You may be able to answer a question that I've asked others without getting any answer: What is the temperature of the tranny or differential oil after making a run on the long course?
I've asked may people about oil temperature rise over time but their racing has been in other venues where the need for an oil cooler on a differential or transaxle was well established. These were NASCAR & CART guys who run 200 to 500 mile races or sports car guys who run races as long as 24 hours. No one seems to know how fast the oil heats up since the rate of temp rise is not important in their type of racing.
I'm trying to decide if I need to add a pump and oil cooler to my Porsche G50 transaxle in the B/GMS that I'm building.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Neil,
My racing has also been in other venues and I would have to agree that how fast the temperature rises is not as important as how to maintain the optimal temperature. Having seen the data streams from a LeMans Porsche and talking to the team engineer, I can say they try very hard to keep everything at the optimal temperature while running.
How fast the temperature rises will be effected by if the case is magnesium or aluminum, have some of the ball bearings been taken out and other factors. The best scenario is to preheat the oil and control it from there. The colder the oil the more rolling resistance, and you can have several thousand movement in clearances from 50- 280 degrees. On our RMR transaxle and the Firebird, the bearings and clearances are based on 220 degree running temperatures and we will try very hard to control the temperature to keep close to that number as possible.
In your transaxle I would look at a way to preheat the oil, maybe with an external heat pad on the case and add a small pump and a oil cooler to control oil from there. To cut down on parasitic losses it is very important the amount of oil you run, I know my NASCAR friends have it down to the milliliter on their tans / rear ends. I always feel bad watching one of those races and see a trans or rear burn up and know that some one was off a few milliliters. Tony
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Just sent you a pm regarding your transmission temp question.
Larry
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Thanks for your answers, Larry and Tony. From what you both suggested it looks like it would be helpful to heat the transaxle oil/gear lube in the same manner as a dry sump oil tank. I think I have a couple of thin pad heaters around here-- if I can find them I'll see if they fit between the case ribs. If I go instead to an oil pump to circulate the warmed- up lube from an external source, I might as well add an oil cooler in the loop. I have a small aircraft oil cooler that has a temperature-sensitive bypass valve to maintain the oil at an elevated temperature. That should prevent the cooler from over-cooling the oil.
Yes, I understand that it (the rate of temperature rise) would be dependent on the masss of the various transaxle parts and their specific heat but the question of how much energy is being lost by the transaxle is something that seems to be relatively unknown. If one had a data acquisition systen readout it could be back calculated, of course, but it really isn't necessary to get that much precision in my case. I just wondered if anyone knew how much a tranny or rear end heated up from one run on the long course. You both have been very helpful with your answers and you have my thanks.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Neil, I have not gun temped the rear end on my lakester but by hand with motor oil in the rear I cant tell hardly any but that is NOT documented
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Huh? Sparky, what kind and wt. of motor oil do you run? Thx. :-)
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Synthetic 5-30 with some Problend gear oil addditive, I am running a Torsen-Gleason out of a Camaro. no problems yet no indication of wear yet. I use a 2.14 gear set, the pinion is huge, the mass and the wipe area is much larger than say a 4.10
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Thank you, Sparky. Much appreciated. I'm sure that large pinion helps
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Took the day off and went to the track to start working on the suspension layout with the usual suspects (some real suspects). What started out as an ordinary day turned into an adventure. It all started when a bunch of us went to lunch at our local haunt (Angelo's), and while eating on the benches outside one of the guys screams like a 16 year old girl on prom night. Turns out he almost stepped on a rattler under the bench. Mind you I have bad knees, but I moved so fast I felt like a 16 old boy on prom night (call me a sissy, but I really hate snakes).
Back to normal after lunch, we decided on a three bar with a watts link for the rear and inboard suspension, with the front having a hybrid NASCAR / ALMS layout. While all this was going on I finished up the drawing for the brackets for the hard oil lines in the back. Its a small part at 1.5" square but it took a while to finish because my heart was till racing after our incident. My original design was boxy, but thanks to Don's (DND) input, it came out better than I thought . Tony - Did I Say I Hate Snakes
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Assem1OFFICIAL_JPEG.jpg)
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Kind of like the snake I found in the back room of the shop? Now THAT was a surprise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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You probably wouldn't like this one then! :-o
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:-o As Arnold might have said " Seeing That would make me squeal like a "Girly Man"
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Paul Bunyon needed a new hatband???????? Wow.
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Call me a Girly Man Woody, but if I saw that snake I would scream first and then probably pass out. I have seen that picture somewhere before, and I think that's Wendover airfield in the background. The one under the table was about four feet (four feet too big) and was just calm sitting there, and once the commotion stopped he just slithered back to the eucalyptus grove. Tony
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That's not a snake, THIS is a snake ;)
Do you wait or drive on over it???
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e338/ewriggs/SnakeAcrossRoad.jpg)
Chris, Fordboy,
Good to see the post mortem and learn the reasons why. Two steps forward and one back still amounts to forward motion...
Cheers,
Rob
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You probably wouldn't like this one then! :-o
It was from Wendover http://tjvaoutdoors.blogspot.com/2008/08/97-lb-rattlesnake.html makes you think twice before exploring the buildings on base. :-o Tony
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Chris, Fordboy,
Good to see the post mortem and learn the reasons why. Two steps forward and one back still amounts to forward motion...
Cheers,
Rob
That'll teach me to read two threads at once :oops: I'm following your build with interest too Tony :cheers:
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I got a nice care package from the guys at Roush to help on the car. The pedal box that came used remote reservoirs mounted above the cylinders. On the Firebird we will have a custom low profile dash with no room available to run the Roush configuration and our only option is to move the reservoirs elsewhere. Its not much and they are small steps, but forward steps, I was able to finish the drawing for the reservoir hanger. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Assem4jpg.jpg)
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The main hoop and the “A” pillar tubing are finally tacked in and the cage is on its way, but we still need to do some trimming on the rear wheel tubs before the back bars can go in. It was a bit of a bugger and a struggle to drill out all the spot welds on the strut towers and get them out of the way for the new front suspension and wheel tubs. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/cage11.jpg)
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Tony, you work is always amazing! I'm in awe! :cheers:
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Fantastic work and cool parts as always. Just out of curiosity, are you planning to cut the roof off to weld the top side of the cage, or will you be using a different technique?
Steve.
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Tony, you work is always amazing! I'm in awe! :cheers:
Thanks Buddy, But I cant take credit for it. One of the others cats Ryan is doing the cage to my design. Tony
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Steve, On one of the corners where the catalytic tucked up has to be modified to fit the pad. To do this we have to cut a hole in the floor and at that point it would be easy to just cut three more holes and drop the cage and weld the corners and close the holes when we are done. Tony
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We got a little more work done on the Firebird today. The headache bar and the other “A pillar bar was tacked in. Also final parts of the firewall and the shock towers came out (I can’t believe all the spot welds and layers of metal that were used by the factory). Also since the driver pod is going to be very stiff we designed some areas of the frame to fold away from the driver pod and not transfer the energy to the pod. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/car1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/car4.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/car2.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/car5.jpg)
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That is a nice cage, tight to the a pillar!
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Re: Reply No. 265
edit . . . It was a bit of a bugger and a struggle to drill out all the spot welds on the strut towers and get them out of the way for the new front suspension and wheel tubs. Tony
Tony: This is a very interesting comment. What kind of front suspension are you going to substitute? Any links to pics of this area?
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Re: Thread 270
edit . . . Also since the driver pod is going to be very stiff we designed some areas of the frame to fold away from the driver pod and not transfer the energy to the pod.
Tony: You have hit on an incredibly important area. I have equal concerns and have talked to various SCTA principals in the past about building-in various crumple zones to absorb some of the impact. I would like “crush” to take some of the energy and attenuate the forces acting on the driver. Everyone has been very interested and helpful but the common thread seems to support cage design as spelled out in the rule book. IOW, cage rigidity is paramount. I completely agree but there is little focus on how the rest of the car could be part of the “system”.
In particular, I think any space between the cage and the body is a plus because that becomes a “crumple-zone” on impact. However, all cages I see are as tight to the car body as can be fabricated. Why? I could even see adding some kind of crushable material in the void between the cage and the car sheet metal to further attenuate force. I have never seen anything like that at Bonneville. Obviously, I must be wrong but what am I missing? Secondly, could you expand on your statement? I am in complete sync with you and would like to learn more. Maybe some pics or a description on how or where the frame will fold away or just additional thoughts would be valuable.
I realize this is a build-thread but your experience and approach to fabrication is high value. I’m not requesting an engineering dissertation! However, more thoughts or pics on crumple-zones would be well received. Also, I know that would take precious time so all I’m asking is to keep my request in mind and maybe address these issues as they come up along the way. Many thanks for starting this thread.
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Obviously, I must be wrong but what am I missing?
Your not missing anything on the construction side of things, energy absorption in design is well founded and used by several racing organizations in their rule packages, as are penetration barriers for racing environments that might expose the driver to "spearing".
F1 and Indy racing league require Zylon anti penetration and energy absorption panels in the chassis construction of the drivers safety cell.
Both nose cone and rear crush structures are also mandated to absorb energy on impact when the car noses into or backs into the wall. In older designs the rear trans-axle formed a very rigid structure that causes huge deceleration loads if the car backed into the wall at speed. Now they have a little crush structure that is bolted on the rear of the trans-axle to dissipate energy on such an impact.
http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/nose_cone.html (http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/nose_cone.html)
The New generation NASCAR cars have foam inserts, and a penetration barrier steel panel in the doors to absorb crash energy, and distribute loads.
http://stockcarscience.com/scienceTopics/scsCarSafety_IMPAXX.php (http://stockcarscience.com/scienceTopics/scsCarSafety_IMPAXX.php)
Energy absorption is often the only way to make protective structures survive major critical impacts.
Even radioactive materials casks include energy absorption structures so they can physically survive catastrophic impacts.
It is a very well demonstrated concept and rules packages should not make it impossible for the builder to design crush and energy absorption into the design. Unfortunately well meaning regulations that require roll structures placed as close as practical to the exterior body panels do in effect make it impossible to design into the structure planned crush and energy absorption.
Larry
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Re: Reply No. 265
edit . . . It was a bit of a bugger and a struggle to drill out all the spot welds on the strut towers and get them out of the way for the new front suspension and wheel tubs. Tony
Tony: This is a very interesting comment. What kind of front suspension are you going to substitute? Any links to pics of this area?
We wanted to look at how the air behaves in the wheel well and use the suspension components to move the air, after all the tire/wheel combo is a big pump and the air can’t be too happy in there. Part of our solution is to move the shock and sprigs out of the air stream and to do this we will either use a push rod suspension or use the upper “A” arm as the rocker. The hold up has been on my part designing the cage structure, as it’s an integral part of the suspension and carries the loads. These pictures are from the net, which shows the different styles we are looking at, the last picture is of the shock on top of the frame and is from a Mustang. Tony
Push rod style
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/frontrocker3.jpg)
Upper "A" arm used as the rocker on an AAR Indy Car (this was very common on Indy Cars and Can-AM cars)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/eagal1.jpg)
Horizontal shock layout with push rod activation (Used on a Mustang)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/frontrocker.jpg)
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Re: Thread 270
edit . . . Also since the driver pod is going to be very stiff we designed some areas of the frame to fold away from the driver pod and not transfer the energy to the pod.
The rules are what they are and with .120 wall the car can drive through a wall, the way I am designing the cage it’s going to be very stiff. The Firebird was designed with crush zones from the factory, but once we added the cage structure that all changed. If you think about it most if not all of the loads on the cage are compression loads not shearing loads, so the driver cell will be affected in an violent event. To minimize the force seen by the driver cell we have designed the front frame to fold away and dissipate energy if it comes down on the nose (same for the rear). We did this by removing the metal in the areas we want to fold and replaced it with a thinner metal that would give during an event. Part of our other straggly is as Larry mentioned crush zones on the top, side and “A” pillars of the car. We are using the bracing to dissipate some of the energy before it gets to the cage. Notice the roof and “A pillar bracing on this Audi DTM car. Tony
Picture from the net.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/interior.jpg)
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Tony and Larry, thanks for responding with the links and more information. The foam offered by BSCI in one of the links Larry provided may be worth looking into. I may consider some door panels similar to the NASCAR COT. The Audi pic also has some great ideas. In the past few posts there is a ton of information to consider.
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Saltfever, This picture is of the door protection on a BMW race car. We are leaning towards this style with our similar door bar configuration. Tony
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Is it flame proof????
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A ton of good info in the last few posts.
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Is it flame proof????
Should be, the stuff passed the SFI specs. I could not get all the PDFs to open tho....
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Glen, one of the links provided by Hotrod said the Dow foam did not support flame and did not drip. However, I was drilling around the other day and tonight I can't get any of the links to work. I can see I will be spending a lot more time researching this subject and material.
Tony that door picture (#278) really helps with ideas on how to incorporate this stuff. I was thinking more along the lines of the NASCAR COT design (as seen in the link in post #274). But I like the way the foam is being constrained with the cage on the BMW. I could see creating similar features on both front and back of the car. This is great information.
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Saltfever, I wouldn't use the foam for the front or back. The common methods for the front and rear are either carbon fiber or honeycomb to absorb the energy. Its not that hard to fabricate the honeycomb units and I am going to do them for the front and rear of the Firebird. This link should give you an idea of the carbon fiber units from ycom. Among other things they developed the carbon crash box that is currently used by the Brazilian version of Nascar. http://www.ycom.it/2011/projects/projects.htm Tony
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Impressive company, Tony. But even more significant are the resumes of the principals. I would sweep their floors just for osmosis! :-D :-D
Honeycomb is one of the first things I thought off. However, I have no experience on how to fabricate it, but most importantly, I have absolutely no idea of honeycomb cell size. I took an EAA class on composite construction so I am eager to put some of that fabrication information to work. But I lack the design knowledge to even approximate a beginning cell size. I don’t mind iterative destructive testing but have no shop to do it at the moment. I’m kind in a “holding pattern” just learning as much as I can. Also, that is one of the reasons I was considering the Dow foam since I might benefit from NASCAR R&D. However, you have presented yet another approach for a different part of the car and I am now very interested in how you are going to apply it. I can't keep up with you . . . :-)
I am not a big fan of using expensive carbon fiber in the LSR environment when e or s-glass could be designed with ample strength. On the other hand I haven't looked at the cost/strength trades of the materials. That is another topic I may post, but I am very busy right now and I might bring it up when I get back from SEMA.
Thanks for your continued sharing to this thread. :cheers:
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Saltfever,
If you are interested in some aircraft quality honey comb panels I may have a source. These would be aluminum skin over aluminum honey comb and probably 1/2 to 1 inch thick.
Rex
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"Aircraft" sounds expensive, Rex. But, yes, I'm interested and would call them . . . and thanx. :-)
There is so little space between the roof and the cage that may be the only logical place for aluminum honeycomb. Containing the honeycomb to ensure "crush" may be an issue. I don't want a steel plate over my head (or a raised CG). Maybe some kind of outrigger arrangement along the cage tube with the honeycomb laid in there would work. No firm ideas yet . . .
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Tried to get some work done this weekend, but once everyone showed up it just turned into a big bench racing day. These are the hard lines for the trans /rear dry sump system.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/oillines.jpg)
After waiting for what seemed like a long time to get the oddball tap for the filter housings, Kevin finished up the adapters for the Pall filters. Sometimes the forward path is measured in very small increments. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/oilfilter3.jpg)
Still have a little massaging left to do on the housings for oil flow.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/oilfilters2.jpg)
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After some time off for health issues (donor ligaments and 7 titanium screws in my leg) I got back to working on the cars rear inboard suspension. I am using the front rockers off a Panoz indy car, but still trying to decide if I want to mount and load the shocks on to the roll cage or try a different layout. Tony
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Welcome back, Tony. I hope the winter is kind to you and your internal hardware. You can't be too careful about counterfeit fasteners. Glad you did it now it before Obama-care attempts to design a quality control program. :evil:
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Thanks Saltfever! This is something I have been procrastinating for about an year and wanted to get done before Obama-care kicked in. It was my orthopedic surgeon who advised me and was adamant to get it done before the new regulations. I sure do hope winter is going to be kind, but I an already feel the cold working on the parts. Tony
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Some of you know that my neighbor (known him since I was in 3rd grade) whom I have been helping build the car lost his job last year. To help him out I bought the car back from him (to get the my IRL motor back) and will continue with the build as time permits between the roadster build and work.
I want to use a cool suit and just can’t stand the look of an ice chest in a race car (its just wrong), andbstarted working on the enclosure for the cool suit tank today. I don’t want to buy a new system instead I will use off the shelf parts and construct it. Other plans for the car next month is to finish the frame connectors, rear wheel tubs and firewall. Tony
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Glad you're back with us Tony,
Don't overdo it too early mate!
Cheers,
Rob
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Make sure and take plenty of pics when you build the cool suit setup!
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Trent, I am off to FL for the next week and one of my friends will finish the tank, I told him to take lots of pics for you. I just hope the big boss (wife) docent find out that her cooler is missing. :-o Tony
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Tony, I bought a soft bag unit from Cool Shirt that looks like a Ladies oversized purse.
It contains a xtra large and xtra strong zip lock bag with the pump inside. I just fill it with Ice Water and lay it behing the drivers seat.
It will conform to any shape you want it and it works so well that I have to shut the pump off if I am held up in staging.
Two years ago I sat in the car for over a half hour while they cleaned up a bad crash........... no reason to get out even wearing a SFI-20 suit... Bob
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Hi Bob
What holds the water bag in place if a car gets up-side down ?
Don
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Bob, I have seen those and they are nice. I have my old road race suit which also has a head cap for cooling that I don't see on the newer suits anymore, but when I sold my car the other parts to make it function went with it. I have a pretty good handle on how I want it to look and function. Kind of like a shoe box with adjustable clamps around the top lid. The other thought was to incorporate the cool suit into one of the ballast water tanks, but the thought of doing all the additional fabrication for it killed that idea. Tony
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You got screwed with Titanium, all I could afford was Stainless but the surgeon said if I broke the leg once more he'd have to learn to weld. He thought it was funny :-D I'm a big attraction at airport security now though. The parts you're doing look great Tony.
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Don, what ever you want. This bag measures about 1' x 1' x 4", is soft and if it hit you in the face I doubt that it would hurt. You DO NOT fill it with Ice, just Ice Water so that it doesn't plug up the pump. Bob
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Mike, Thanks for the kind words. My surfing days are over, now I just get to watch. I have a medical card for traveling and it always seems the Singapore airport has the most sensitive detectors of the airports I fly into.
Kevin sent a picture of the hub adapters he machined up for the rear wheels to make them hub-centric. These are 18" rears and are big monsters and Kevin was able to find a friend with a big enough mill to spin them to see how true they are. We got lucky and the run-out is good and only one wheel needed some minor work which will be relegated to the back up set. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/wheel_zps6e035880.jpg)
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Tony, I bought a soft bag unit from Cool Shirt that looks like a Ladies oversized purse. - Bob]
Bob how and where do you get the tubing through your -20 suit? Did you penetrate the suit somewhere or do you run the tubing through the top at the neck?
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Saltfever, My suit has two zippers, one from top down and one from the bottom up. I bring the tubes out where they meet. Tony
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Came back from Florida yesterday and found an update the guys had done on the Firebird. The first picture is of the fitted front wheel tub and the second is of the sub-frame connector half finished. The finished version of sub-frame connector will be triangulated and tied to the roll cage. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/fronttub_zpsc9aff23f.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/subframe_zps271f5306.jpg)
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Hey Tony
That wheel tub kinda looks like a rear , maybe a little jet lag still or a senior moment ?
Don
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Methinks he's only showing us the "front" of the tub.
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Don, It was a typo and I was showing the front of the rear tub. The fronts will also have a tub, but it wont be finished till the front suspension layout is finalized. Trying to figure out how to get the suspension parts out of the airstream is killing the brain cells. Tony
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Hey Tony
No problem at all just use a ' Bellypan ' as it will fix all the under-side aero stuff
Ya i know you can't run one but it would be swoopy looking
Don
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These are some better shots of the wheels, good thing we checked them otherwise it would have looked like a clown car going down the track and at the very least a bad vibration to chase and fix. These wheels were way off, to fix them Kevin indexed off the inner wheel lip and adjusted them to be hub-centric. You can really see how far they are off in the second picture with the hub. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/LSR/wheeladapterring_zps051a3fa9.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/LSR/wheeladapterring_zps051a3fa9.jpg.html)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/LSR/wheelandhub_zpsa3ae9563.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/LSR/wheelandhub_zpsa3ae9563.jpg.html)
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OMG! . . . I can't see how something that was turned (on a lathe?) be so far off! Even if the center plate was burned out with a torch or plasma (using a centerpunch and a radius holder for the torch) I could get it closer than that. Seriously, how could it be so far out of concentricity??
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What Saltfever said! Plus, is there enough meat for the lugs???? Looks thin on the inside.
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Did they come off a FarmAll or Masey Furg???? :-o
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Saltfever, I don't want to name the company that made these, but they are known for taking a long time to make them. Each wheel is slightly different and after getting the lugs correct we have to modify the center spacer to fit the hub correctly. Like you mentioned its amassing that a wheel could be built like this.
Trent, The bottom picture is with the lugs adjusted and without the spacer in the center. There is plenty of room and the wheel wont come off, and being hub-centric I have a better chance of winning the power ball than a wheel coming off.
Captthunder, They came off Ermie Immerso's turbine liner, and I am very grateful to Don Ferguson for selling me his spare set from that car. Finding any type of 18" rim suitable for LSR is a chore.
Of all the cars I have owned and worked on I have yet to see a perfect set of wheels and when looking for the last bit of optimization its one of the things that need to be addressed. Tony
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Tony, true that on finding 18's, I was just as amazed as the rest when I saw how far off they they are. Didn't mean to push o butons.
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No offense taken, I wouldn't have used them on a tractor the way they were. Tony
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:-D
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When we started there wasn't two wheels that matched, but with a bunch of work all four rear wheels now match. In case anyone asks about this wheel company I am going to leave the x and y coordinates to show them how far the wheels were off. :-o Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/LSR/wheels1_zps3117b79c.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/LSR/wheels1_zps3117b79c.jpg.html)
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Wow! Nice job making a totally worthless piece of steel usable! :cheers:
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:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Hi Tony
Did you chuck them up and take a face cut off the back side so they don't wobble from side to side ?
As the center might be off of center.
Don
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Thats nuts!
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Hi Tony
Did you chuck them up and take a face cut off the back side so they don't wobble from side to side ?
As the center might be off of center.
Don
Don, You don't miss a trick, we did have to take a small cut in the back to true them up. Tony
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Trent, As promised here are some pictures of the first part of the cool suit tank (hopefully my wife wont see her missing cooler) that my friend is fabing up for me. The last picture is of is welds that look like a sewing machine did it. I will post the motor and pick up and water return line pictures later. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/cooler1_zps3eba6997.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/cooler1_zps3eba6997.jpg.html)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/cooler2_zpsea54f8cb.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/cooler2_zpsea54f8cb.jpg.html)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/cooler3_zpsa1d04cc0.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/cooler3_zpsa1d04cc0.jpg.html)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/cooler4_zps6d93ceb9.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/cooler4_zps6d93ceb9.jpg.html)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/cooler5_zps430a2d3a.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/cooler5_zps430a2d3a.jpg.html)
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Very neat Puddles, a bit of time on the torch to get that good !!!!
Don
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Very neat Puddles, a bit of time on the torch to get that good !!!!
Don
And the HAZ is Tight!@ :cheers:
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The secret is the fit up, really nice job and it looks like .100 material which makes corner welds like that possible. Tony, with the "driver comfort" things you're going to have you planning to camp out in the car? Whats next a cup holder????!!!!
Rex
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Beautiful work, as always :-o
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The secret is the fit up, really nice job and it looks like .100 material which makes corner welds like that possible. Tony, with the "driver comfort" things you're going to have you planning to camp out in the car? Whats next a cup holder????!!!!
Rex
And a TV with surround sound!
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Whats next a cup holder????!!!!
Rex
You guys are a rough crowd. :-P Call me a sissy, but I working on using a Volvo washer pump to make a drink box. If it gets too hot in line, just push the button on the steering wheel for a cool drink. Though not bad as some of the ALMS and NASCAR guys that use air conditioning systems. :-o Tony
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Rex, Looks like I wont have to build the drink box after all. I was at Huffaker's shop the other day and they gave me this setup they used on their Trans-Am cars. It needs to be cleaned up and the lines replaced, but it all works, and yes it uses a Volvo washer pump. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/LSR/drinkbox_zps8b298196.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/LSR/drinkbox_zps8b298196.jpg.html)
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Tony, that's a complicated way of getting a drink. I had a plastic bottle mounted behind me in my F2 car. All you had to do was suck on the pipe. We used straight Coke at first but it gassed up from all the Gs and started pumping on it's own. Then we mixed it 50/50 with Captain Morgan. Less gas, much better. :-D :cheers:
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Tony while waiting in line after filling your cup with your fav toddy you could put it a CNC machined polished and ano'ed very trick cup holder, now that would be styling.
Just thinking you can do that today on your big bird ride, enjoy the trip
Don
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Mike, Its a little complicated, but once its all hooked up just push the button on the wheel for a cool drink.
Don, No cups, just a line from the beverage dispenser. I am going to use the 16hrs to rest on the flight. Tony
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Boy you just hit the button for a drink, just a little over the top would'nt you say
What is this LSR stuff coming too?
Don
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Wait till he installs the seat massage unit!
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Ya with Hot & Cold running maids for a rub down too.
Don
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At that point he might need to have a catheter and hang a c-bag, he'll never want to get out :wink:
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Ya with Hot & Cold running maids for a rub down too.
Don
You have seen his avatars!? His pit will be the most popular! :cheers:
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I went low tech at World of Speed. I was flirting with a pretty girl at the starting line and handed her my drink to hold until I got back after making a run (canned soda). The pop was cold and she was hot. By the time I got back to the starting line (about an hour) both were not so much. I need to get either a cooler or a faster recovery vehicle. Sorry for the thread jack, back to regularly scheduled programming.
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Ya Tman your right that is why i brought up the running maids, Party Hearty !!!
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Ya with Hot & Cold running maids for a rub down too.
Don
You have seen his avatars!? His pit will be the most popular! :cheers:
In the mid 80's I raced a street stock car on the dirt oval at Baylands Raceway and had an all female crew. I felt like Foyt when I had to jump out of the car to work on my car during pit stops. It was a fun time in my life. :-D :-o :evil: Tony
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Well you sly devil you just might have to put crew back together for your salt ride's, the press would love ya and your team !!!
Don
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But my wife wont. Tony
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But my wife wont. Tony
We won't tell :-D
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Just came back from my trip overseas and found a nice care package from Roush. I have been asking for these hub heaters for awhile and had almost given up on them, but they finally showed up. Since we are running oil instead of grease in the front and rear hubs, the heaters will bring the oil up to optimal operating temperature. One more piece of the puzzle checked off. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/LSR/pre_heater_zps81a23858.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/LSR/pre_heater_zps81a23858.jpg.html)
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G'day Tony,
Given the short distances we run, wouldn't it be easier to run a lighter oil in the hubs?
Cheers,
Rob
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Hi Rob,
We will be using a light oil in the hubs, its the same as our engine, differential and transmission oil. As part of our staring procedures all the oils and engine water will be per-heated. Some of the NASCAR guys use the hub heaters before qualifying on the long tracks like Talladega Superspeedway which is 2.66 miles (4.28 km). Tony
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Hi Tony
Boy you are going to have one hell of a ' pre run ' check off list, i put pre flight but that does not sound too good for a lsr car that you wan't to have planted all the way down the course.
Don
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Struth- when I first saw the photo I thought you must have been into kinky sex or something! Was quite relieved when when I read what they really were.
Denis
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Struth- when I first saw the photo I thought you must have been into kinky sex or something! Was quite relieved when when I read what they really were.
Denis
Denis, just because you didn't see the 5th collar? :? :-o :? :-o
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Scared me Tony, I looked at the picture before I read and I thought you were in trouble with the wife from the old pit crew post and she picked up some ankle and wrist restraints with electric hookup to torture you....
Luckily it is car parts.... you gonna need a 10KW generator to get this thing going? I figured the 100 degrees at the salt was warm enough for synthetic oil to work right....
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Scared me Tony, I looked at the picture before I read and I thought you were in trouble with the wife from the old pit crew post and she picked up some ankle and wrist restraints with electric hookup to torture you....
Don't give her any ideas. :-o
Don,
Its not that bad, all the heater lines go into a control box that I can set the individual temperatures on and the other main part of the starting procedure is the switch from warm up plugs to the race plugs. Tony
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Tested the cool suit tank today and I am pretty much pleased with the way it turned out. I just have to put a hole for the wires and its done. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/LSR/cooler15_zpsc144cc08.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/LSR/cooler15_zpsc144cc08.jpg.html)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/LSR/cooler16_zps099bab44.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/LSR/cooler16_zps099bab44.jpg.html)
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Tony;
Dare I say it?.......cool!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Boy talk about creature comforts, like i say whats next ' Hot & Cold running Maids ' to hook up the belts
Don
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Tony
1st, could you show a picture of your cool suit pump with out the water. Or give the part # for it. I googled Volvo pump and came up with several options.
2nd, If one of your avatar maids bends over to buckle the driver in, the lap belt may suddenly get really tight.
Thanks
Ron
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Tony, your stuff is always very 'cool'! :-D
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Hi Ron
Speaking of your #2 quote, that is a very good one!!
Don
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Boy talk about creature comforts, like i say whats next ' Hot & Cold running Maids ' to hook up the belts
Don
Don, Now that I am older I am all for comfort. If you think about it you do more idling the engine and sitting in you car than actually running down the track. I need to make my seat next and I might make it water cooled for those hot days sitting in the car waiting to run. :cheers:
Ron, The Volvo pump I use is for the drink box and for brake cooling. The pump I used for the cool suit tank is a submersible bilge pump (I think its a pro-pump). Tony
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What seat design you going to use Tony, La-Z-Boy or Bark-o-lounger?
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What seat design you going to use Tony, La-Z-Boy or Bark-o-lounger?
A La-Z-Boy would be nice. :-D :-D :-D I am going to use a modified version of the seat that Mark Donohue designed for road racing. The originals were fiberglass, but I am building mine out of aluminum.
I got this copy of a Donhue seat for a pattern from AK Miller about 30 years ago. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/LSR/seat3_zpsfaa60856.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/LSR/seat3_zpsfaa60856.jpg.html)
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Tony
Make sure you make it a bit wider for the ' Button Tufted Tuck & Roll ' for your Firebird low rider
Don
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I got this copy of a Donhue seat for a pattern from AK Miller about 30 years ago.
Tony! I thought I was a long term pack rat! Glad I'm not the king. :cheers:
Love the bits and pieces going in this build. Thanks for sharing.
Geo
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I got this copy of a Donhue seat for a pattern from AK Miller about 30 years ago.
Tony! I thought I was a long term pack rat! Glad I'm not the king. :cheers:
Love the bits and pieces going in this build. Thanks for sharing.
Geo
30 years is a blink of an eye, I still have my dad's Lionel train sets from when he was a kid. Tony
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These are the last of the pictures of the finished cooler. The latches of have a "T" handle for adjustment and the whole thing comes apart for maintenance. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/LSR/cooler16_zpsd0c1bc0f.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/LSR/cooler16_zpsd0c1bc0f.jpg.html)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/LSR/cooler17_zps24c3886d-1.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/LSR/cooler17_zps24c3886d-1.jpg.html)
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Did I miss it? what thickness is that aluminum?
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That is a nice looking cooler tank.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Did I miss it? what thickness is that aluminum?
Trent, Its made from .063 material. Tony
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Tony, it is a good idea to have a cover over an aluminum seat in case the sun hits it. They can get pretty warm. I learned this the hard way on my bike. It had a bare aluminum seat the first year it was raced. Never again.
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Did I miss it? what thickness is that aluminum?
Trent, Its made from .063 material. Tony
Thanks, I am good with what I picked then!
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Tony, it's all looking great. :cheers:
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Had a chance to start fitting the Jerico to the motor plate and bell housing today. The motor plate and bell housing is the same style that is being used in the roadster with some slight modifications. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/LSR/jerico3_zps1ab14b7e.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/LSR/jerico3_zps1ab14b7e.jpg.html)
The motor plate and drawings are from my roadster build.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/plated.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/plated.jpg.html)
It the same setup as the roadster, but without the tube. Where the tube is where the Jerico goes.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Bellshousingassyview1.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/Bellshousingassyview1.jpg.html)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Bellshousingassyview2.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/Bellshousingassyview2.jpg.html)
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Yea, Tony's back....
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Started working on the layout for the seat and seat box today and came to the realization that the headrest will need to swing out to make the egress more practical. I want to thank DND and a few of the others on here that have given me some great ideas on how to go about it. But it looks like the most practical way is to have each side swing out separately. For the benefit of others I will start a separate thread on this. Tony
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Started working on the layout for the seat and seat box today ... Tony
Both "seats" in your post look great :cheers:You always do good work.
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Yea, "The King of Avatars" is back....
Frank, fixed it for ya! :-D :cheers:
ROTFLMAO!
Gregg
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Thanks Gregg, it was hard to type after my eyeballs exploded. :-o
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Thanks Gregg, it was hard to type after my eyeballs exploded. :-o
I'm with Ya on that one! :-D
Gregg
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You guys kill me. Tony
From Seinfeld, Kramer's license plate (taken from the web).
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/LSR/Seinfeldplate_zps92f7763e.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/LSR/Seinfeldplate_zps92f7763e.jpg.html)
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Hi Tony
Thanks for the kind words , just putting in my 2 cents worth and glad it helped
Don
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... it was the Fucilli............. :roll: :evil: :roll:
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Not a very fancy model, but this is the layout of the rear suspension. Its in board and out of the airstream, and can be easily adjusted from the back of the car. Steve had to draw some brackets up to modify the Panoz rockers we were going to use. Also we had to switch the dampers (the ratio didn't work out for what we wanted) we were planing on using to get the correct droop travel and bump travel we needed. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/LSR/RockerPlacementref_zpsfff78b83.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/LSR/RockerPlacementref_zpsfff78b83.jpg.html)
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Hi Tony
That's about as Sano as it gets dude, couple of brackets and a few bolts and you are off and running
Don
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I have been swamped at work and haven't had a chance to work on the car, but my neighbor brought the antenna cover for the roof top he made. It still needs to be trimmed and fitted with the cam locks, though it snot much one more thing crossed of the list. The mold for the part was posted some time ago on post 213. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/antenacover_zpsb788771b.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/antenacover_zpsb788771b.jpg.html)
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Antenna cover? Roof top? Contour change?
DW
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Antenna cover? Roof top? Contour change?
DW
Instigator, Happy 4th Dan. :cheers: I guess all those cars with roof flaps would be in the same boat. :evil: Tony
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As long as your antenna cover leaves a minimum of 35% of the original roof visible when viewed from above...
vic
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As long as your antenna cover leaves a minimum of 35% of the original roof visible when viewed from above...
vic
Now that there is funny...... :cheers:
'specially coming from a REMR guy.
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Thanks, Mike! :evil: :-D
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Tony,
Roof flaps do not change the contour, they are flush with the top.
Vic,
Where did you get the 35% from?
DW
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Tony,
Roof flaps do not change the contour, they are flush with the top.
Vic,
Where did you get the 35% from?
DW
Dan, I should have been a little more clearer, I wasn't referring to the flap itself but the 50 or so rivets that hold the flap box to the roof that change the contour of the roof and the gap (break in the roof line) that is created from the recessed flap hinge.
I think Vic was anticipating a possible new rule. :evil: Its an RMR thing. :-D Tony
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Take a read through any of the motorcycle magazines that report on road racing if you want further information on what the computers can do with EFI and other engine parameters. They ECU is connected to all sorts of inputs including GPS - so the ECU can vary the tune up according to location on the track (out of a sweeping left turn onto a long straight might be different than out of a hairpin connecting to a short straight and then downhill, etc).
And NASCAR hasn't learned how to do that yet?