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Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: RICK on February 03, 2006, 01:57:36 PM



Title: Indy or straight?
Post by: RICK on February 03, 2006, 01:57:36 PM
I was just going thru some pics in "BUILD DIARYS" and I saw a Vega with a front tube axle? Is that the prefered suspension or would a independent front be better?
 And I think it had a PACCARD? motor? Why?


Title: Indy or straight?
Post by: landracing on February 03, 2006, 04:36:45 PM
That pictures was Rich Fox's car. You ask why a Paccard.. Because he had one sitting around probably would be the answer...

Jon


Title: Burning Desire
Post by: JackD on February 03, 2006, 07:16:47 PM
It is the same "Burning Desire" that caused the first person to Climb Signal Hill. :wink:


Title: Indy or straight?
Post by: RICK on February 03, 2006, 07:57:12 PM
Packard motor/top loader in a Vega racing car? In my heart, in the pit of my stomach, I know why. I just can't explain it to anybody I know. Don't get me wrong,,, I think the consept is way way cool. Almost better than sex. I just don't have the nuts to try it.
 
  Which brings us back to the original question, ,,Which works the best, independent or straight  axle and why?


        eye think my spell check, she is no workin


Title: Monkey Motion
Post by: JackD on February 04, 2006, 02:53:19 AM
If you are building from scratch the straight axle offers less monkey motion unless you have to take it under the motor.
The various speeds and conditions seen by an LSR vehicle don't require near the suspension science that other series need but it does have to be strong.
A drag race set up on the front of a car that would run forever on the strip failed on the salt and put the driver on his head.


Title: Indy or straight?
Post by: dwarner on February 04, 2006, 12:28:01 PM
Bill Ward's Opel has the axle welded to the frame as does many a Lakester and Streamliner. Works just fine for what we do.

DW


Title: Almost perfection
Post by: JackD on February 04, 2006, 12:43:58 PM
Quote from: dwarner
Bill Ward's Opel has the axle welded to the frame as does many a Lester and Stream liner. Works just fine for what we do.

DW

Bill has a BBC in an Opel GT that runs 250 if you need test results. :wink:


Title: Indy or straight?
Post by: RichFox on February 04, 2006, 01:54:47 PM
When I built the car a tube axle with early Ford type suspension was what I was used to and easiest to construct. I have run the car with different GMC 6 cylinder engines, a 460 Ford, 455 Pontiac, and a 392 Chrysler. When I was a kid I thought Packards were neat. I have never seen a Packard powered Vega. I have some Packard motors. What's the big deal. At least it's not a '32 Plymouth with a '57 Ford head. The car has a best run of 208 mph and many runs in the 180-208 range. Always straight and easy to drive.


Title: Indy or straight?
Post by: Sumner on February 04, 2006, 02:45:17 PM
Just to present a different perspective, last year and some other years provided some real difficulties for cars with no suspension.  They will come again and if the time to run is limited, you have paid up front and you want to run under varying conditions I would suggest some suspension even if it is very limited.

Keith showed last year that with some well thought out suspension you can set a high speed record on really bad salt when most of the other solid suspended cars are parked.

Just my thoughts,

Sum


Title: spn
Post by: russ jensen on February 04, 2006, 09:59:13 PM
8) I was told the salt was so smoth that I needn't worry about bump stear or any of that, didn't quite beleive @ time , must be salt isn't always smoth, I keep thinking about the yellow crosley that went airborne @ 300+, Tape said he lost wheel but it looked like he hit a small bump that resulted in [what a ride] can't beleive he survived it.


Title: Re: spn
Post by: Dynoroom on February 05, 2006, 12:22:35 PM
Quote from: russ jensen
8) I was told the salt was so smoth that I needn't worry about bump stear or any of that, didn't quite beleive @ time , must be salt isn't always smoth, I keep thinking about the yellow crosley that went airborne @ 300+, Tape said he lost wheel but it looked like he hit a small bump that resulted in [what a ride] can't beleive he survived it.


Russ, Earl did in fact have a right rear tire go down, this allowed the front to pitch up (looking as though it went over a bump) The tire was blistered badly and deflated. He had this problem (blistering) on a previous run but didn't put 2 & 2 tegether 'till after the crash.


Title: blistering tires?
Post by: russ jensen on February 05, 2006, 07:02:29 PM
:?: 2 pt ? why do tires blister, was he spinning them and getting them hot. doesn't seem like the run would last long enoudh to get hot ? I rember somebody telling me that [I think it was vesco streamliner which had a bunch f cords hanging from rim] [ some multy ply tires from micky's chalanger] was told he had 500mph power & 400 mph car and spun all 4 wheels the length of course,  I degress; or was it low air pressure. 2nd part, if I rember he was running some pretty wide tires on back , is this a problem with open wheeld cars running eagles??


Title: Tires and failures
Post by: JackD on February 05, 2006, 07:31:12 PM
If you consider how tires are assembled, you will understand how they come apart.
 The strength is in the cord body.
 The rubber keeps the pressure in to help hold the shape and the tread provides the
 contact patch to allow the power to contact the drive surface.
The tread is bonded to the case and is the point of failure with a blister.
 Grab up a truck tread along the highway and take a close look at it.
The results are the same.   Like a grinding wheel. if your object is going the same speed
as the grinding surface it produces very little heat.
 Get them going at different speeds like tire spin and heat happens.
Lots of HP produces lots of heat right away when it is put through a very small area and failures occur.


Title: tires?
Post by: russ jensen on February 05, 2006, 09:23:55 PM
:?: Do open wheel cars get enough cooling from the high speed air to avoid this problem????


Title: Cooling ?
Post by: JackD on February 05, 2006, 09:33:09 PM
A shrouded tire will build more heat with all things being equal.
Things are never equal and the tires see different conditions every run.
 One driver might have repeated failures and another in the same machine might make them last a long time.
Power, conditions, and technique all contribute to the life of the tire just like the resultant speed.


Title: indy
Post by: Glen on February 05, 2006, 09:53:06 PM
Actually in Earl's case it was the left rear tire not the right that went down causing the blow over


Title: Re: indy
Post by: Dynoroom on February 06, 2006, 12:08:07 AM
Quote from: Glen
Actually in Earl's case it was the left rear tire not the right that went down causing the blow over


I'm sure you remember better than I Glen, same end result as the tires were blistered.


Title: Re: blistering tires?
Post by: Dynoroom on February 06, 2006, 12:14:56 AM
[quote="russ jensen 2nd part, if I rember he was running some pretty wide tires on back , is this a problem with open wheeld cars running eagles??[/quote]

Earl was running Goodyear "front runner" type tire. I'll check my notes to see if the tire he had the problem with was a LSR tire or a drag tire (he has run both) but I'm sure he only ran the drag tire at the lake bed, he used the LSR tire @ Bonneville. This is a 28" tall X 4.5" wide tire on a 15" rim. The LSR tire is made in the same mold as the drag tire but has more plys.


Title: Yup
Post by: JackD on February 06, 2006, 02:11:25 AM
The 6 ply Goodrears were provided by them for an Olds project in I think 89 for Jim Feuling and worked pretty good for a lot of stuff.
The future of tires will require the SCTA to take a hard look at the demands and the appropriate regulations before a tire company will buy into the program. It is not as much a business venture as it is advertising for them that has to have the appropriate liability limits in place.
The future of the sport depends on it.


Title: Indy or straight?
Post by: Bob Drury on February 06, 2006, 07:34:10 PM
The Goodyear LSR tires are rated to 300mph with a max load of 1750Lbs per tire.  Earl was on the wrong side of 300 if memory serves me.  Russ, one advantage slower cars have is you can usually hear or feel if the tires are spinning, where as the fast boys probably don't have that option.  If you know your car is spinning the tires, its time to dig out the lead.........


Title: tire spin
Post by: russ jensen on February 06, 2006, 09:57:11 PM
:oops: I have a basic problem, I don't drive[ Guy that tested my diesel pogo stick noted<after head blew off> "you don't seem to put your cheaks in jepordy"] I love to listen to engines, I had 2 drivers but 1 used up his 9 lives{not in race car- spray plane} 1 I have left knows nothing but peddle down, and he has used up about 8 of 9, I was told that traction was #1 problem on salt  this driver has trouble on dry slick[ burns up all my tires] thus causing my questions. How much spinning can the eagles take before their junk???


Title: HOP ROD ?
Post by: JackD on February 06, 2006, 10:09:04 PM
I have a HOP ROD from 62. I would love to see you try it. :wink:


Title: Indy or straight?
Post by: Bob Drury on February 06, 2006, 11:28:59 PM
Russ, at least with the Eagles, you have tread that you can read the wear on.  With the M/T's you pretty much have to guess.  As for Driver #2, the trick is to add the lead ballast anywhere in the car, except on his right foot.......................


Title: lead foot
Post by: russ jensen on February 06, 2006, 11:36:45 PM
:lol: Tried the ballast trick, had only 4100 lb camaro that could pull wheely out of corners on dirt,  but how much weight would it take on a bgmr? enough to pop tires, I kind of gave up on idea of front runners on front because of their low load rating. and I know I will need lots of wt.


Title: Re: lead foot
Post by: Dynoroom on February 07, 2006, 01:45:11 AM
Quote from: russ jensen
:lol: Tried the ballast trick, had only 4100 lb camaro that could pull wheely out of corners on dirt,  but how much weight would it take on a bgmr? enough to pop tires, I kind of gave up on idea of front runners on front because of their low load rating. and I know I will need lots of wt.


No simple answer Russ, you can't spin any tires very much at Bonneville. We have even peeled the tread off of land speed Firestone tires back in the '80's.
The Kugel/LeFevers firebird weighs over 5000 lbs. and has run over 300 mph, but as far as tires go you don't have much choice.


Title: Blistered tire
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on February 07, 2006, 10:29:49 AM
Russ:

A couple of years ago on my first run with nitrous at the Salt (a bike, for your information) -- I pushed the button at about the 3 3/4.  The tire immediately lit up -- and even though I pedalled it some, I was new enough with nitrous that I didn't let off the button nor get out of the throttle enough, ending up spinning the tire for 1 1/4 miles -- 20-25 seconds.  My guess is that the rear tire was spinning at about 230-235 mph, but the timing slip said I was doing about 217 out the back door.  I've still got the tire -- it was its sixth run, and is now in my museum of parts from which I learn (right next to the pistons with holes in 'em, etc).  Three blisters, about the size of my thumbnail, and it was "let's go to the spare tire, Jon!"  You can do the math about how much -- or how little -- spinning it takes to blister a tire.  The bike & me weighs about 650#, weight dist. is 50-50.

Since then I've added 70# of lead and gone to a progressive nitrous system and a shaved tire, too.

There's some quantitative information for you.


Title: tires?
Post by: russ jensen on February 07, 2006, 10:52:20 AM
:shock: Your last 2 answeres are real helpful, but don't make me feel real confident, has anyone tried non rubber, seems to me years ago somebody ran al wheels direct to salt, but might have been jet? snomobile rule left big loop hole, I was involved  in a nice little rig that was a copy of indy car but had skies in front, was a twin track, but I made a set of al wheels with ice carbides and a rear setup like a lotous, it worke fine but team skidoo had heart failure when it appeareed @ eagle river. my you must sit out till we confer the rule cmty, which of course to the rest of the season, you were legal but not no more thank you.  Would al wheels with studs be legal or would they wreck the salt, or plug up and not work, at least they wouldn't go flat... any ideas out there??


Title: Indy or straight?
Post by: Bob Drury on February 07, 2006, 11:25:20 AM
The MacDonald and Pitts Firebird reportedly weighs in at 6500 pounds and runs 297.  If it spins the tires, you MUST keep adding ballast.  The trick is where you put it.  As Mike said, there aint no easy answer.  Marlo Treit and I were looking at a magazine article on Michelins new airless tires they are testing for possible future use.  They are a solid band tire used with a flexible wheel.  According to the article, they work fine on a street vehicle, however are very noisey.  At Bville, who would care?


Title: Re: tires?
Post by: Sumner on February 07, 2006, 12:51:01 PM
Quote from: russ jensen
:shock: Your last 2 answeres are real helpful, but don't make me feel real confident, has anyone tried non rubber, seems to me years ago somebody ran al wheels direct to salt, but might have been jet?.......

.....  Would al wheels with studs be legal or would they wreck the salt, or plug up and not work, at least they wouldn't go flat... any ideas out there??


A number of cars run aluminum wheels/tires, but they can't have a square shoulder and have to be submitted for approval to the contest board at least 45 days before a meet and have to not damage the salt (I'm sure no spikes).

A rule book would answer a lot of your questions and they also list all current records (new one will when it comes out) and lots of other good information.

c ya, Sum


Title: The noise you hear is
Post by: JackD on February 07, 2006, 12:59:48 PM
Noise in a part generates heat and the faster you make it happen, the more it will be and that will take apart your deal.
A traction method that depends on displacing the material across the surface won't put it back for the next guy.
A biker was known to get caught in the rut left behind a very powerful , wandering Roadster and often said "I hope he gets it straightened out soon because this ride all over really sucks." or something like that.
Al, Scott, is that pretty close ? :wink:


Title: START THE CAR
Post by: RICK on March 30, 2006, 11:03:39 PM
I've been a closet land speed racer long enough! Its time to come out and declare my intensions. And I think its going to be a /CGALT.
  I've been hiding away old hot rod/race car parts for years and think its time to put 'em to use. I've got a 34 5-window that i've had sence I was 17,  did'nt want to cut it up [or induce more rust] so I made a fiber glass mold of it. I dug around the back of the garage and found enough extra tubing and STUFF that I should have no more excusses.
 And if I can work this computer, add the pics, text, and get some feeback from you guys, I will make this 'my build diary'
  So if you see a picture of a pile of mismatched parts along with a discription that won't work,,,PLEASE let me know.


      Thanks,   RICK