Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: kerncountykid on May 14, 2011, 03:54:56 AM
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I'll do a quick introduction since this is my first post. I feel like Axl Rose getting off the bus in Welcome to the Jungle, green as can be. I'm going to need y'alls help and experience to make this project a reality. I thought my decent wrenching skills would translate to an easy build, but I've been stalking the forum a little while now and realize building a racer and street bike are two very different animals. There's not much engineering involved in putting a stock bike back together.
Ok, real quick. Knew nothing about cars, grew up in a house full of women. Inherited this truck years after my dad passed and the first wrench I ever turned was rebuilding that 396, often below freezing in a tin can of a shop. Shocked me and everyone I knew that I was pretty decent at it and picked up a CB550 to wrench on at home. Rebuilt it completely and rode it cross country, twice. Lived in a tent all over the south west. The salt flats were my mecca and when I hit them I was hooked.
Picked up a second bike to build to go race. Built a few more and sold them to pay for the race bike.
The hotrod:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/trevorware/moving.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/trevorware/PIC02555.jpg)
Cross country (been to a TON of national parks!):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/trevorware/IMG_4061.jpg)
(CC BLOG) http://kerncountykid.blogspot.com/ (http://kerncountykid.blogspot.com/)
Salt Flats:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/trevorware/58509_436722203694_500503694_4992501_6879955_n.jpg)
Salt bike:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/trevorware/IMG_7318.jpg)
Bikes I've built to pay the bills/fund Salt project:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/trevorware/IMG_7254.jpg)
other bikes....
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cannonball-Reds-Cycle/103884469646088 (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cannonball-Reds-Cycle/103884469646088)
Parts I've picked up for salt bike, Kimtabs & straight through Yoshi repro pipe
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/trevorware/IMG_7317.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/trevorware/IMG_7319.jpg)
Shop I'll be working out of. Back room of the house, girlfriend is very understanding :-D:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/trevorware/IMG_7312.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/trevorware/IMG_7314.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/trevorware/IMG_7315.jpg)
Soooooo anyways, please check back often as I will be picking y'alls brains every day until I leave for the salt, hopefully in time for the BUB. I'll throw a few out now...
I can't bore up too much, 590cc's is what I'm looking at and compression even with the bigger bore stays about the same, 9:1 I think. Am I just trying to flow as much air through this motor as possible? I can shoehorn 750 carbs w/ stacks on, a CB650 cam for a bump in lift/duration, and do an aggressive port/polish with 1mm over intake's. With high compression pistons not being available should I consider other means of raising the compression ratio, ie custom gasket/decked head?
Talk to me like a total newb, because I am one. If opinions are like buttholes; everyone has one, well then I want to hear your buttholes :-D :-D
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Paint or clear laquer the Kimtabs....salt will eat the Mag..................................................................
PS. Kimtabs will break....I have broken a few (sidecar Moto X)....but should be OK. for straight-line racing...
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Also as a follow up on the Kimtabs....use Lock-Tite to hold the bearings in.........................................
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Kid,
I am not a "bike" guy but I think that you are really pi$$ing in the wind using a CB550 to race. Pretty old technology and you are going to be running in the 750 class that is dominated by late model rice burner water cooled fours that probably make twice the hp stock as your bored CB550 will every make regardless of what you do to it. If you just want to say "I ran at Bonneville" then the CB550 is probably the least expensive way to go but if you want to be competitive start with a late model 750. You may consider doing an engine swap of a late water cooled 750 four into your CB frame. Low mileage complete 750 engine "kits" can be bought on E Bay for around $1000. Once you have the Bonneville bug just running there quickly turns into "I want a record" and then let the spending begin.
Rex
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If u told your kid brother not to touch the red hot burner on the stove and he still did it
this may be a similar situation. Both will learn after they do their own way.
It may hurt for a while but.........
Don't let logic get in the way of dreams.
FREUD
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What about building the best machine for yourself at a particular time in your life? I know these bikes very well and I enjoy working on them. I don't know anything about modern sport bikes and don't especially like working dual cam motors. I want to have fun and push what experience I do have as far as I can and feel like I wrung as much out of one of these little 550's as possible right when I was getting good and working on them.
Come on guys, we can't all have the biggest weener in the room.
and as for "old technology", how you fellas doing on Munro's 1k cc record? :-D
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Hey, Axl (I know it's not your name - but I didn't see one in your post or avatar section so thought I'd give you one) - welcome to the Forum. You've already received your initial battering - although in this case it wasn't bashing as much as folks looking at what they think is the long-term result of starting out fresh at Bville. Your idea of running what you know and like is right along with the Bonneville tradition -- and their comments about you sooner or later wanting a record are right in line with tradition, too.
I see I've got another word or two to put into the curse-word filter. Ah, life is so rough.
Welcome to the KernCounty Kid - and have fun. No matter what hassles you've got in the last day --= hang around here and you'll have all the help that you ask for. Maybe more -- but for sure all that you want. :roll:
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thanks Jon. My name is Trevor, btw. Considering Axl's downward spiral into fatness/dreadlocks I'm not sure I like the association :-D
and I edited out that tame curse :-D
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I'll give you props, KCK - there is definitely something to working with yestertech, especially a combination you're familiar with and committed to. Let's face it, most competitors gave up on the Ford Flathead years ago. Those who haven't are among the most creative builders on the salt.
While you may not grab a record, you can likely make yourself an authority on wringing the most out of the combination you've got. That information will serve you well come the day you decide that you DO have the biggest d*#k in the room, and you want to prove it.
Make that five fitty fly.
PS Cross country twice on a bike that small? I'd be in traction after those trips.
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Hey, I did not pick on him......I like his bike............got one........runs great........................................
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Wonder who all encouraged or tried to discourage Burt Monroe?
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Which ones of us were born before Burt and lived in NZ?
Anyone ever ask his wife?
FREUD
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So where should I be focusing my energy on this little motor? Anyone care to give me a rundown on where I want this bike to make power and how best to feed it at that RPM?
there are known options
Electronic ignition is available
some weight savings (only running one kimtab, up front sans disc brake, kick only, etc)
1mm os intakes
750 carbs will fit
650 cam is a direct drop, performance equal to a webcams mild 550 grind
what else should I be considering, and should I avoid any of the above as unnecessary?
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I'm an old rookie looking to have a build ready for this year..............Several 550 builders on the sohc4.ent site should provide more info on getting peak torque out of that motor. If you are running in the modified 650 class........do all you can to get your head down low and your hands, knees, and feet tucked in. Deck, shave, high-compression pistons and all will help but don't go too high on the piston profile..........keep the flow. Think about the air intake to get stable air versus a possible drag or vacuum at speed..........its a wide motor but think narrow.
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Welcome Trev/Kid/Axel,
you've got just the make-up for this place.Self taught with determination and tunnel vision are perfect attributes for landspeed. There's no shortage of people running basically stock period correct stuff because they want to see how fast they can make it go. The high end of this sport is a little expensive for most of us to get involved in.
Plenty of experience and advice here, plenty of light hearted ribbing too.
There aren't many people who haven't been told "you're wasting your time with that............, you should just buy a............, ha ha why are you racing that?"
There's nothing surer than you'll find like-minded knuckleheads in this sport and if you love the salt you're a goner. :wink:
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For Bonneville you shouldn't have to worry about the weight, in fact weight is often your friend. This is unlike any other form of racing and if you've participated with any other form of racing first the weight issue can screw with your mind. Lots of guys carry a fair bit of extra weight on the swing arm. Everywhere else they worry especially about unsprung weight. Go for it, be safe and have fun.
Pete
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Remember - you're at 4400 feet, and I assume normally aspirated. The head will need to breath well. Don't let the mixture go lean on the high end.
It's hot and dry out there - except when it's cold and wet. :-D
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Get a rule book, look at your classes and the safety items. Maybe you will or will not be competitive in your class, but you can be safe, have a lot of fun and learn a thing or two.
Enjoy the ride
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Trevor, sometimes it helps to find a person who runs an engine like yours in a higher state of tune, such as blown, fuel, turbo, etc. They can tell you how to set up your motor for reliability. That is what I did. I built the lower end to work reliably with lots of power first. The adding power part is happening later when I get the money.
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Hi Trev
You go for it buddy I am using a 20 year old CBR Motor in my project it aint as old as yours I know but old hat by any stretch of the imagination.
As the project progresses there is less and less of the original motor left things get modified or replaced with more up to date equipment and little by little it gets stronger,faster,better......hmmm sounds like the beginning of the six million dollar man and sometimes I reckon thats what it costs me.
Regardless, to get to Bonneville on something you have built yourself is no small acheivment whatever you build its the journey and the experiances you have that count!
Good Luck Oz
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Weight good airflow and compression are necessary when racing on the salt. It will be a 3 mile drag race. You said you were shooting for the Bub, so the rules are online. You might want to consider Run Whatcha Brung... for your first outing on the salt. It will give you a taste of salt racing while not costing you a fortune. You run for 2 miles on that one IIRC. You could ride to the event, race and ride home.
One of the fast cars one the salt ran an old 500 four Honda motor... Lingua Bros. & Father M. Lingua 08/91 223.071, but I know Mark went over 250 several times so don't get discouraged.
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I'm going to second what Stainless said on weight, good airflow, and compression being your friend. Also, the BUB run what ya brung class would be a great intro for you.
Focus on making the machine reliable and getting your whole entire setup together. Entire setup = everything from the ice chest, trailer, to the racing tires and tools. So much of Bonneville is just making it to the starting line - there are a million things to do before you get there. Definitely get a rule book, figure out your tow vehicle (at BUB you don't need one), where you're going to stay, how you're getting there etc.
There is a wealth of info out on the net on the CB series bikes (I love those bikes). If you can find any way to increase the displacement towards the class limit, that would help you out the most. Weight is good, especially over the rear tire and hidden from the wind within the confines of the chassis.
Have someone take pictures of you in a race tuck on the bike from all sides in that badass room/shop of yours (I love that!). Then look at what sticks out. Walk around and see what doesn't look aero and what you can improve and do those things. Then do it again...and again....and again...
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and say goodbye to the nice finish on any metal parts. The Salt will lay it's claim to your treasured cycle. Get some SaltAway and use it but the bottom line is, that bike will never be the same.
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Thanks for the encouragement everyone, lots of good advice, I read every bit of it. Further reading on unsprung weight was especially interesting. I'm chipping away at it every day and will post back as I move forward. Getting an outline for the motor currently so I have something to talk about with the machinist.
Also good advice considering the surrounding arrangements like trailer and sleeping. I slept in an alfalfa field and behind a row of bushes last time I rode through Utah on my 550 :-o
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Hi KCK, Welcome. Don't mind the naysayers. Go with what you have. If Burt Munro had listened to the naysayers we'd never have heard of him. This is still an amateur sport but there are those who have taken the fun out of it. No record, no fun. I'm running a mid 80s (don't know for certain and could care less) Weslake. Its outdated but its fun (not to mention four records).
Just two things. Weight. At Bonneville its basically irrelevant.
Drag. Its everything when you run a small displacement engine.
Hope you make it to Bonneville this year. And the best of luck with the build.
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Have fun building it, the road to to get their is just as fun. Tony
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Being of a certain age (I was at the American Honda Convention when the CB500-4 was introduced to the dealers), I've played with some of that era stuff. One of the things we learned about the old 2-valve engines (keeping in mind that the CB500 was essentially 4 SL125s, sort-of), was valve float as the exhaust side of the head heated up. This showed up when I was running a stroked and bored SL100 in the 125 class on 1/2 mile ovals (I was young and skinny, and....yes....we just rode around wide-open throttle, kind of like Bonneville!).
Anyway, the solution was to dish and polish the exhaust valves (lightening and improving gas flow to reduce the heat in that area). That was a "no cost" project, involving chucking them up in a drill press and using a Dremel tool to slowly dish the valve while it was spinning. Without that step, the exhaust valve would tap the piston before the end of a 16 lap main. At that time we had no options for valve springs...and no money to spend on such stuff. Note that the valve contact condition never happened in a "heat" or an 8 lap "semi".
For cams, we simply had the base circle ground down about .040" and surface hardened. Nothing fancy....just our best guess, which worked out OK. Now you can probably get a WEBCAM cheaper than doing your own.
We often ran Mikuni 28mm carbs, with the slide cutaway hand ground to lean out the part throttle enough to "get by". 28s were easy to come by, as the Yamaha guys were putting on GYT kits and throwing the original carbs away. We also ran the original points ignition with the spark advance welded full up, to prevent the rattling and bouncing at very high RPM. Ditch the flywheel and run constant loss battery.
We had good luck with Powerolls exhaust tuning (which was pretty similar to the pipes you see on old CR77 kitted Super Hawks.) I've made my own megs by gore cutting thin wall tubing, then using lots of hose clamps to close the taper before spot welding between the clamps. You'll find good length info on the internet.
Maybe some pretty cheap fun!
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Pretty much nailed it there for you KCK.
What a great board this is....
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Trevor, it was experience with those old Hondas that taught me to pay attention to valve spring tension. A strong spring will make the rocker follow the cam and the valve will close gently. The rocker will not follow the cam if the spring is weak and the valve will slam shut. Eventually something will break. Excessive heat will partially anneal a spring and make it weak. I carefully checked the springs during every tear down. I still do on all engines I take apart.
Our shop bought big barrels of 20-50 Castrol GTX mineral oil. It went into all of the Hondas. We did not have any oil related troubles with the street and dirt bikes, with two exceptions. A couple of fellows ran the Honda 350 fours as production road racers. There were a lot of problems with the top ends. Cams, rockers, and cam bearings as I remember. The problems went away when we tried synthetic oil. An expert with engines and oils helped us figure this out. One thing he mentioned was to use a thinner oil. He said the engines would run cooler. His reasoning was that there is less heat producing internal shear in the oil as it is moves about and there is greater oil flow to carry heat away from critical parts. We switched from 20-50 to 10-40 or 20-40. This was a long time ago and I do not remember exactly. This is something I do to this day. I avoid excessively thick oils.
Synthetics are not all equivalent, I learned the expensive way. The oil in a Honda needs to have an additive package for the transmission gears and minerals to keep the cams in good shape such as zinc and phosphorous. A lot of car synthetics do not have these additives. An oil made for motorcycles with integral transmissions is best. Those Hondas worked well after we figured out their quirks.
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Didn't wan't anyone to think I fell off the map. I have a blog....
kerncountykid.blogspot.com
... that covers about the first year with my travel bike Dee Dee. There was another whole cross country trip and thousands of miles through the south. That bike was stolen a couple weeks ago and it has grinded the bonnie bike to a halt. No racing on the salt with my grandpa this year, no cross country trip. Can't even get around as I don't have a car during the day. I'll come back to this in a couple months when I find a replacement (not that that is really possible) and begin duplicating all the custom travel items I had on Deed's. Thanks for all the help so far.
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Sorry to hear this. I was in the same situation at 27. I had my bike that was all. Hopefully you will get some nice street wheels soon.