Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA General Chat => Topic started by: Koncretekid on April 14, 2011, 10:01:16 AM
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I do not have an ECTA rulebook, but have just ordered the LTA rulebook, so maybe this will be cleared up. I notice that in the records for motorcycles, many records are listed twice for the same class except for the suffix "/2" or "/4". What is the distinction between these two records?
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And there's another bike category: /R. ECTA separates 2-stroke, 4-stroke, and rotary engines for purposes of class distinction. (SCTA does not make the differentiation). At ECTA a Ninja 250 (stock top end about 100-110, depending on state of tune and newness, where a 250 2-stroke might run 140++. It's a "bummer" for folks at Bville with a four-stroke, but not so at ECTA. Opinions on the need and "fairness" of the various rules differ - but there's your answer. And rotary engine bikes (well, one of 'em) runs at ECTA now and then. I don't know for sure what SCTA rules have to say about rotary bikes. I know they do distinguish about rotary engines for cars.
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Actually, Slim, in SCTA rotaries do not run in separate car classes, but the Rule Book has a formula to compute the displacement in a way that lets them run competitively in various displacement categories. Or, at least that's the way it is supposed to work.
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SB that's what I said - that SCTA has a way to distinguish the rotaries. I think that not only is there the fudge-factor about swept volume/displacement, but also a multiplier (divider?) based on noise -- rotary engines being the loud suckers they are, you know.
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Thanks for the answers. At least it won't affect pushrod motors, as I do believe they still have that class. So those pesky little ring-a-ding-dings won't bother me!
Tom
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The better question is why is there a 2 and 4 stroke classes for the ECTA???? The answer is not about the power capabilities or speed capabilities betweent the two.
JonAmo
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Jon, I can't speak for John Beckett nor Lionel Williams nor whomever else set up the ECTA records structure -- but I'm confident that part of the reason for the different classes for 2-stroke and 4-stroke was to make more records possible. I would think that they decided to go that way to help more folks secure personal records -- to make more folks feel good about racing and therefore get more committed to the game. That might not be the way it is done/has been done at other sanctioning bodies -- but I think it played a large part in ECTA history.
Out of curiosity -- why is it not about the power and speed capabilities of the difference engine styles? There is a marked difference, right? If I'm wrong - educate me and the others on the Forum that might not understand, either.
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The question should be why dose the SCTA NOT separate 2 and 4 stroke engines? There is room for a push rod class .AND vintage .
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Can you show the number of 2 and 4 stroke entries in a given class that would give reason for a separation?
Or, for that matter the number of new competitors that would become participants.
DW
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I don't think that is the question. The two stroke make twice the power of a four stroke. why not a separate class? What is the big deal?
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SCTA -- Maybe 3000 classes (miss Willie on this) -- 500+ yearly competitors at SW. You can see more classes are sorely needed.
I like JD's idea -- use your Entry No. as your class. No. 3876 runs against his own record every time he runs. Sell the class record certificates for $50 or so each (whoops, I think someone's already doing that).
Stan
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No I don't think any more classes are needed . I don't think anyone needs to change a thing . I just thought since the difference between a OHV engine and an OHC engine is less than the difference between a two stroke and a four stroke.That it would be natural to separate the engine types. But I see how quickly it could get out of hand .Water VS air cooling .Or the number of pistons. No the rules atr all fine just the way they are.
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Stan, I can't wait to have a drink with you in person (out on the salt)... I need to see for my self if your as quick witted in person or if it takes you days to think about the barb's you send back East !!!
Charles
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Stan, I can't wait to have a drink with you in person (out on the salt)... I need to see for my self if your as quick witted in person or if it takes you days to think about the barb's you send back East !!!
Charles
Half... isn't it Stan
Was there a barb in there....
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SCTA -- Maybe 3000 classes (miss Willie on this) -- 500+ yearly competitors at SW. You can see more classes are sorely needed.
I like JD's idea -- use your Entry No. as your class. No. 3876 runs against his own record every time he runs. Sell the class record certificates for $50 or so each (whoops, I think someone's already doing that).
Stan
Hopefully your post was offered in humor. I would hate to think it was just offered to be rude.
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Saying the ECTA sells records for 50 dollars is not only rude but ignorant.I also dose not answer the question.
Compairing two stroke engines to four stroke engines is like compairing apples to pineapples.both have apple in the title but the simmilaritys end there.
If only 500 people show up to run . What difference dose it make if there are 3000 or 30,000 classes
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2 stroke or 4 stroke
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I like JD's idea -- use your Entry No. as your class. No. 3876 runs against his own record every time he runs. Sell the class record certificates for $50 or so each (whoops, I think someone's already doing that).
I kept my mouth shut about as long as I could on this. This same B.S. was being spread on the LTA forum. This SCTA vs ECTA and Bonneville vs Maxton/Loring racers is just that. B.S.!!!!! I simply can't understand why we can't come together to promote and stand by the form of racing that we love. As I said before I saw this same childish behavior destroy American Roadracing. If anyone saw the Daytona 22 this year you saw the state of American Roadracing, but the teams are banding together to try and make it better. I could care less where a record is set or in what organization. I simply want to be happy for the person that did it, as I and all of us who do this understand the struggle to do it.
All that said, as far as buying records goes. That is an idiot statement. At one time our 636 owned all the ECTA records for the class. We were fast so we went after them all. That made guy's work harder. The nitrous and turbo records are now well out of our N/A reach. Nobody whined about us running in so many classes, they just went to work. It was good for the 650cc class. I'm proud of what we accomplished and the growth in the class.
I may never get to Bonneville, depending on finances, work and a lot of other issues. I will say this. 190.118 mph on a N/A 650cc class motorcycle at Loring has no equal. 184.161 at Maxton has no equal. I stand by what TLN Motorsports has done. We buy records with hard work. Just like the rest of the ECTA/LTA. I'll line my 636 up against any other N/A 636 out there. Come prepared and bring the cash. You better pack breakfast, lunch and dinner, because you will be there a while.
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The reason is this. In ECTA's infancy there was a struggle to make ends meet for the organization. Few entries, but affordable enough to race. It was brought up by a racer that if they were to split those motorcycle classes into 2 and 4 stroke that a competitor would run all the classes. Essentially like a previous post said, "buy a record." This gave an important financial solution to the organization. Competitor would run down the track, hand over xxxx amount of dollars for a specific class and there you go. A purchased record. Then he would sign up for the next class above run down the course, come pay again, etcetc. you get the pictures. THere is no engine tear down, no verification of any sort. Where is the "hard work" when you could puttts down the course at 80 mph and get a record from 50cc /2 all the way to 3000cc /2 with the same bike? There was a time in history where this was needed and served a purpose. Today is not it. It is time to strengthen the legitimacy of a record in the ECTA start combine the 2 and 4 strokes and start measuring the competitors for a record.
IF 2 strokes have such an advantage then where are they? Speedweek may draw 1 or 2 a year. When Belen Wagner was racing at Speedweek she had a few. McVicar in his early years??? Andy Edwards used to bring 1 or 2 in the 250 or 350 range, of course in earlier years of the TZ750 Guthrie brought out many. This is speaking for Bonneville. I am rock solid on the SCTA sticking with no distinction between the two. 4 strokes seems to rule 98% of the records.
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The reason is this. In ECTA's infancy there was a struggle to make ends meet for the organization. Few entries, but affordable enough to race. It was brought up by a racer that if they were to split those motorcycle classes into 2 and 4 stroke that a competitor would run all the classes. Essentially like a previous post said, "buy a record." This gave an important financial solution to the organization. Competitor would run down the track, hand over xxxx amount of dollars for a specific class and there you go. A purchased record. Then he would sign up for the next class above run down the course, come pay again, etcetc. you get the pictures. THere is no engine tear down, no verification of any sort. Where is the "hard work" when you could puttts down the course at 80 mph and get a record from 50cc /2 all the way to 3000cc /2 with the same bike? There was a time in history where this was needed and served a purpose. Today is not it. It is time to strengthen the legitimacy of a record in the ECTA start combine the 2 and 4 strokes and start measuring the competitors for a record.
IF 2 strokes have such an advantage then where are they? Speedweek may draw 1 or 2 a year. When Belen Wagner was racing at Speedweek she had a few. McVicar in his early years??? Andy Edwards used to bring 1 or 2 in the 250 or 350 range, of course in earlier years of the TZ750 Guthrie brought out many. This is speaking for Bonneville. I am rock solid on the SCTA sticking with no distinction between the two. 4 strokes seems to rule 98% of the records.
If there was no record in a class, you are just setting a benchmark for some one to try and break.
I wouldn't say you bought a record.
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There is no one asking for a rule change. Just a simple question about engine class. The answer seems to have nothing to do with the machine.
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One thing we all have to remember..... I was told on this forum a while back, when I questioned the ECTA sidecar records......that all their racers have "integrity", so there is no need to measure engines after a record run...
Years ago after setting a SCTA sidecar record, I tried to tell Tom Evans (SCTA Tech.) and DW. (SCTA Impound) that our team had "integrity" so there was no need to tear our engine down........Well, you know how far I got with that!.............................................................................................
Since competing at the BUB Meet, again our "integrity" was questioned....we had to tear down............
I now plan to talk to my priest and get a note/letter from him stating that I have "integrity"......it will save us a lot of work not having to tear down after a record setting run.............Amen.................
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All I know is the only open records I have ever ran on was Loring. There were no records, so we had to start somewhere. Sure I ran multiple classes and set multiple records. They all still stand afer 2 meets there. I expect to see some of them go away as a very fast turbo 650 is coming this year. Will they take some records, yes. Were the speeds set soft, no. They were all very legit. It will be a pleasure to see my good friends 650 turbo blast down the track at Loring. As far as tear down, there is a protest procedure in the ECTA. I'll happily tear down for inspection, but only for race officials are the person putting up the money.
There is good and bad with every orginization. No two are ever ran exactly the same. There is no right or wrong. In the end we are all Land Speed Racers. I've had my say. Good luck to all at the next event, no matter where it is. For me it just may be VIR. Roadracing calls.
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A record with no certification/verification of engine size means nothing. IMHO
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I have no problem with tear downs .I will follow what ever rule you have . I don't care about your opinion. I ONLY care about the rules. And again no answer to a simple question .
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A record with no certification/verification of engine size means nothing. IMHO
As a Maxton record holder I get a bit irritated at critisiums of ECTAs program. Especially when it is implied that somehow ECTA records are a joke. I set my record with a car that was 100% legal for the class. Heck I even drove the car 600 miles round trip to the event even though that is not a requirement of the "street" classes. My engine was legal size at 1300cc in a 1500cc class. I did have a turbo and was not simply running up in class using a non-blown engine. I was not running up in class with an engine too small for the H class. I set the record in a Fuel class even though I was running pump gas because I was not running event gas. No my engine was not pumped or torn down to check displacement but I was ready to all that if asked. The record still stands after 2 and 1/2 years. Did I buy the record? No more than anyone else running at Maxton or El Mirage or Bonneville buys a record. I showed up, paid my entry fee, went through tech, made my runs, obeyed the rules and the race officials. My record was set against an open class but at the time it was the fastest speed for any class H/BF class or category at Maxton from street through Streamliner.
Tell me again that this means nothing.
The reason is this. In ECTA's infancy there was a struggle to make ends meet for the organization. Few entries, but affordable enough to race. It was brought up by a racer that if they were to split those motorcycle classes into 2 and 4 stroke that a competitor would run all the classes. Essentially like a previous post said, "buy a record." This gave an important financial solution to the organization. Competitor would run down the track, hand over xxxx amount of dollars for a specific class and there you go. A purchased record. Then he would sign up for the next class above run down the course, come pay again, etcetc. you get the pictures. THere is no engine tear down, no verification of any sort. Where is the "hard work" when you could puttts down the course at 80 mph and get a record from 50cc /2 all the way to 3000cc /2 with the same bike? There was a time in history where this was needed and served a purpose. Today is not it. It is time to strengthen the legitimacy of a record in the ECTA start combine the 2 and 4 strokes and start measuring the competitors for a record.
IF 2 strokes have such an advantage then where are they? Speedweek may draw 1 or 2 a year. When Belen Wagner was racing at Speedweek she had a few. McVicar in his early years??? Andy Edwards used to bring 1 or 2 in the 250 or 350 range, of course in earlier years of the TZ750 Guthrie brought out many. This is speaking for Bonneville. I am rock solid on the SCTA sticking with no distinction between the two. 4 strokes seems to rule 98% of the records.
Seriously? Is this the real JonAmo or has somebody stolen his logon?
Now . . back to the 2 strokes . . . . First off . . the ECTA/LTA 2 stroke bike classes top out at a displacement of 1000cc, so no one could " putt down the track at 80mph on a 50cc bike and get records all the way up to 3000cc / 2 records." And apparently virtually no one has done that up to the 1000cc level either. Look at the records in the rule book or on-line. 1000cc is the highest class with 2 stroke records and there is only 1 ECTA 2-stroke record in the 1000cc and over classes. And it was set back in 2004. There are only 5 ECTA 2 stroke records at the 750cc level and 3 of them were set in 1995.
Second . . your comment about the purpose for splitting the classes into 2 and 4 stroke so the competitor could 'run all the classes'. Again, looking at the ECTA records I am hard pressed to find a 2-stroke record held by a 4-stroke bike or a record in an ECTA 4-stroke class held by a 2-stroke bike. Can you show us one? Yes, it is true that ECTA allows competitors to run up in higher displacement classes (both cars and bikes) but it is no longer allowable to run in different 'body' classes unless the bike and/or car can meet the rules of the different body class.
Third . . your comment . .” It is time to strengthen the legitimacy of a record in the ECTA. . “ Are you implying that ECTA records are not legitimate? Granted there were some records in the early days that were established under a very liberal application of rules. If fact, you stated some those reasons like ECTA getting enough income to keep the operation afloat. However, the ECTA took positive steps some years ago to ‘retire’ those records and open up those classes (reset to zero) to be competed for under stricter enforcement .
Fourth . . . you imply that 2-strokes are not showing up in overwhelming numbers at SCTA events. I don’t have access to entrant information for Bonneville for bikes split between 2 and 4 stroke engines. I am not sure that such data exists since there is no separation of 2 and 4 strokes by SCTA. However it is a fact that the 2009 El Mirage bike champion was a 2-stroke – the Budfab Streamliner and sometimes Streamliner Sidecar. Also depending on displacement classes and whether their racer is configured as a Sidecar Streamliner or a Lakester the McLeish Team runs 2 strokes. Looking at the Bonneville bike records in the smaller displacement classes up through 500cc you can see that the 2 strokes dominate those classes once you factor out the Pushrod Classes and many of the Vintage classes. About the only inroads in those displacement classes for 4 stroke non-pushrod is in the blown classes. That is because few try to use blowers on 2 strokes – it can and has been done but it is a bit rare.
Fifth . . You seem to be distressed that people are purchasing records. I don’t see that as unique to ECTA or LTA. You can do the same thing at Bonneville. Different rules but the same result. Just use a vehicle that fits in multiple classes to take multiple records. The only difference is that you cannot run up in displacement at Bonneville. Here is an example . . Take the 125cc SCS-BG and 125cc SCS-BF records at Bonneville. Both are open records. If someone shows up with a 125cc blown SCS and they make two runs using event gas they will get the record for the 125cc SCS-BG class. Now they go to registration, pay the needed fee to change class, and go out and make two more runs. This time they are running in the 125cc SCS-BF class. They don’t even have to change from event gas to fuel. Since it was an open record they get the new record. How is this different from ‘purchasing a record’ by changing classes with the ECTA?
Let’s face it. People aren’t really that upset that ECTA has separate classes for 2-strokes. What has folks irritated is that they feel ECTA should not certify records without a displacement check. That translates to a fear that some ECTA record holders might be using engines that exceed the upper displacement limit for a class. Ironically, at the same time, ECTA gets criticized for allowing records for vehicles with engines that are smaller than the smaller displacement limit for a class.
This is not to say that ECTA does not have rules for displacement checks. They do. Go read the rule book. The difference is that it is at the discretion of the race officials when to check an engine displacement or at the discretion of other competitors if they desire to protest someone’s engine. If it is so important to some folks that this be changed then they should submit a rule change that stipulates the every record setter “MUST” have a displacement check.
Peace . . .
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I never mentioned ECTA.
"Methinks they doth protest too much."
Stan
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No one is protesting anything .You made your comment on an ECTA forum. If it was not directed at the ECTA THEN who?
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As a SCTA-BNI Racer and a ECTA Racer, I think you guys questioning the ECTA's Integrity is very low brow and undeserved.
perhaps the SCTA Bunch is such a band of cheaters you HAVE to be policed, torn down and verified. All for bragging rights.
ECTA doesn't even race for a place in line. ECTA has protest Policy, if anybody thinks someone is cheating, fill out the form, put your money down.
I believe what Jon AMO is referring to is paying for Class Changes, Just like Bonneville, Are you guys buying records at Bonneville? Certainly seems to be inferred.
My truck hold records at Maxton and Bonneville, do ya'll think I run differently at the different venues?
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A record with no certification/verification of engine size means nothing. IMHO
Truthfully the only opinion that matters is that of the orginization that certifies the record.
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I feel that all of the LSR org's have problems and this certainly includes the World Org. of FIM..................
Back in the "old" days with SCTA it was very difficult to "buy" a record....if there was no class for your car/bike/sidecar and you wanted to go for a record you had to show SCTA that there was a interest in the class......it required 3 entrees before they considered it a possible class......then a minimum speed
was set for the new class.....then you could have a go for a possible record. That way certainly made it a lot harder to "buy" a record. I don't know why they did away with that rule......something to do with
more dollars...maybe?......Even if it does not require 3 entrees, at least have a required minimum for that open class.........and certainly check that car/bike/sidecar for displacement legality within the class.
I keep hearing that there are 50 million classes on the books and more each year....going back to the "old" SCTA rule for any and all LSR Org. certainly would somewhat resolve this problem`and add
validity to the records.
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I feel that all of the LSR org's have problems and this certainly includes the World Org. of FIM..................
Back in the "old" days with SCTA it was very difficult to "buy" a record....if there was no class for your car/bike/sidecar and you wanted to go for a record you had to show SCTA that there was a interest in the class......it required 3 entrees before they considered it a possible class......then a minimum speed
was set for the new class.....then you could have a go for a possible record. That way certainly made it a lot harder to "buy" a record. I don't know why they did away with that rule......something to do with
more dollars...maybe?......Even if it does not require 3 entrees, at least have a required minimum for that open class.........and certainly check that car/bike/sidecar for displacement legality within the class.
I keep hearing that there are 50 million classes on the books and more each year....going back to the "old" SCTA rule for any and all LSR Org. certainly would somewhat resolve this problem`and add
validity to the records.
I agree 100%.
Maybe we need a new topic . . place it under "ECTA Rules" or "SCTA rules" to exchange ideas on ways to delete classes and at the same time do it with minimual impact on existing cars and bikes. Three weeks from now nobody will check a thread titled "Re: ECTA records /2, /4?" to get info about changing class structures . . .
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"No one is protesting anything .You made your comment on an ECTA forum. If it was not directed at the ECTA THEN who?"
So what was your Reply #7 about -- if not things in general?
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The way I look at this each venue has their own rules and records. If you want to run at any of them you use the rules and classes they provide for the event.In 2003 SCTA/BNI had 671 car classes and 1857 bike classes. A total of 2528 classes. I know some have been removed and new added. If you come to Bonneville or El Mirage you will have to meet the rules and pass inspection for you vehicle class. If you get a record you will be inspected for that class. No running up a class.
Bottom line is run the venue you want and under their rules.
Go race, have fun and be safe.
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"No one is protesting anything .You made your comment on an ECTA forum. If it was not directed at the ECTA THEN who?"
So what was your Reply #7 about -- if not things in general?
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I am simply asking for a history lesson .I don't want any rule changes. Or new classes . I just wounder. Why there is no seperate class for two and four stroke engines .there are seperate classes for push rods and flat heads and rotory .
I can't wait to see how electric vehicles are handled. 12 volt. 36 volt ac or dc hybrid and fuel cell .Will they all be Omega class?
I think it is impoprtant to prpoerly catagorise vehicles .that's all.
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No, there is no need for a new topic.....because I believe nothing is going to get changed in class
structures in any and all of the LSR org's.....basically it is to late....the numbers are in the books, and the people` holding these "records" will certainly defend them and complain if changes are made and vote with their dollars............So be it!!
Your right Glen....like I said...So be it...............................................................
so be it.................
Your right Glen....like I said.....so be it.........................................................................................
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Racer X....if your looking for a history lesson about LSR rules....this forum is not big enough for me to
give you input just on the sidecar class structures alone.....let alone the other solo bike rules in various
LSR Org's......One thing that I find positive about the FIM is that when they change the rules at least they
retire the old records......not so with most other org's......I have a record in the SCTA book that todate still stands.......it is shown in a class that I did not enter back in 1991.....SCTA took it upon themselves
to just change the class and print it.....we ran a streamliner sidecar.... set a record.....we lost that record
to a sidecar that was NOT a streamliner sidecar......even though SCTA/BNI has a sidecar streamliner class.
Some have asked why.....Question Authority....Aways......that is why.......but now that I am 74 years old
I am getting to the point.......so be it.........................................................................................
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Cubic money will always buy records and SCTA never approves of the ECTA. How does any of this affect the cost of eggs? Yeah the hit dog hollers first, but why throw rocks at all?
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"...and SCTA never approves of the ECTA."
What makes you post that? Do you have an official statement of some sort or a verified commentary?
DW
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I was wondering the same thing. Seems to me SCTA & ECTA have worked very close together over the years and still do. Their venue is totally different then ours and Joe, Keith and the late John Becket have worked very hard over the years. Much of the rule book is the same except for some class differences. The Safety rules are very close to the same.
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I agree with Glen, both SCTA and ECTA have safety rules that are a close mirror of each other. Both are very serious about safety and work together well. The main differances are the course lengths, surface and a few classes that ECTA has unique to them.
We as LSR participants and fans should SUPPORT each other and each venue...
Charles
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Someone early on asked the question, why is there a /2 and /4 stroke class at the ECTA. I gave the answer. Simply earned the ECTA money at that time in history. When John Beckett and Lionel Williams they needed the money to make the event survive. I said there could be an instance where a competitor could have taken a /2 stroke and run up all the records from 50cc to whatever
The same could be done with a /4 stroke engine, twice the records, otherwise they two bikes would compete against each other. I just offered the answer.
Power and advantages had nothing to do with the final call on splitting the classes, finances did.
JonAmo
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Now lets talk about buying a record.
Any competitor who runs within a class that they are (should) be legal for and sets a record, I will always give them cudos for achievement. Anybody who sets a record on pavement in which their bikes fits the engine displacement and frame class is an outstanding achievement. You have worked for that record, and maybe somebody had a previous record in that class. And you broke it. Well done.
In my opinion if you take a 350cc bike (for example) and jump into all the other engine classes then you are buying a record.(jumping into higher displacement classes, with same engine). There is no other reason to do it other then to put your name in the book some more or get more records (assuming you did not change engine size). Would it not mean more if you tweaked your tune, changed your fairing and bettered your speed. Is it about speed? or is it about getting your name in the book as much as you can with one bike?
No issues with anyone going from lets say 350cc bike in A-G, A-F, APS-F, APS-G, MPS-F or MPS-G. All in the 350cc class. You get what I am saying.
I could see a financial issue from the ECTA with removing this rule, as each class change up gets more money for the organization.
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Jon, you forgot the main reason for running up class now.
Padding the points championship.
DW
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I am getting sick of all this whining. I left the road circuits behind to get away from the bickering and accusations. I don't understand why some think it is perfectly fine to have pushrod and non-pushrod classes but not 2 stroke and 4 stroke classes. Maybe we should just have displacement with vintage and modern classes. Why are we wasting valuable track time for those inline 4's by letting all those Harleys and Brit bikes run? Maybe we should just banish everything that isn't an inline 4 from the tracks as I am going to take up your time running my Ducati whether there is a chance for a record or not! I dread the day when I go to one of these events and only find two brands running as only they can compete for the records. That will probably be my last event.
You would think if anyone would have a legit right to gripe about this, it would be those wonderful folks who do the record tracking but I don't see them on here crying the blues about all the extra paperwork.
One last thing. At every ECTA meet Joe T makes the statement about not wanting to punish 99% of the racers with the cost and time of teardown to catch the 1% who can sleep with cheating to get their name in the record book. Protesting is available and I hope that if someone doesn't believe it is possible their record wasn't beaten without cheating that they will protest.
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Thanks for answering my question Joe. I know why the ECTA splits the class. I was just wondering about the SCTA . I am not suggesting they any body change any rules . I just thought that since an expansion chamber attached to a two stroke engine makes a lot more power than a four stroke or a two stroke with a straight pipe that there would be a separation in class like a supercharged four stroke engine would be separate. I guess there was never any reason so it never happen .That is a good enough reason for me.
As for the records. The whole reason I try to set any records is to get my name in the book. I also feel like if my 250 is faster than you 350 . Than you should come and take my 350 record. In the mean time I beat you with a 250 . Not running on a non existent record. But breaking the existing record. I have to enter the bike in a class .So if I can go faster than a 350 or 400 than I will .Why is that wrong? I am not running on open records at all.
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But you're the exception, rather than the rule.
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I did not realise that. And I thank you for saying this. I don't mean anything by bringing this up .I just happen to have a bike that has a four stroke engine. Ultimatly I only want to see how fast I can make it go. And have it timed. Then torn down if I can break a record. Fighting two strokes will just make it sweeter when I do it.
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Eric you stated it well. I am in the same place you are. The 650 is faster than some 750 records, so we stepped up and took them. We still own some of them and they are not soft. By doing that a couple of 750 guy's have came back and are now stepping up to retake the 750 records back. I'm not sure, but I don't think you have ever run on an open record. I haven't except for loring where there were no records. I have actually passes on taking some records because I felt the pass was off and the time soft. I just get back in line and run again until we make a good pass with a good record speed. In the past we ran G/F/BF/BG in the 650 and 750 class. The 178 F record had stood for a lot of years before we took it. It has since been upped by Jeff Meclain. We have been concentrating on what we are normally aspirated gas the last year and this one, but if we see an opening in a higher class, we may still go for it. We have been 184 on the mile and there are 183 750 records. We are not buying anything because it is taking some serious time, money and hard work to keep that 636cc engine alive. All we are doing is chasing speed, no matter what class it is in. As I stated before, we broke long standing records running all motor, and it brought fuel and turbo 650 racers back to the class. Seems to be good for the sport.
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Thanks Greg
I have never run on an open record at Maxton. And since I have all the MPS 350 and half the 250 records I only run on my own records now. When I go to Bonniville I will want a turbo for the. altitude.Then I will have to run on an open record. Kinda ironic don't you think?
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Guess I got censored--never mind
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Try it again with different lanuage. I am interested in your opinion on the SCTA haters.
Or PM me if you can't do it here.
DW
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Yes, please tell us.
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I guess the problem may have been a computer thing. Among other things, using an absolute word like "never" is nearly "always" wrong. I was not using any form of coarse language. I've gone back through every post on this thread and not one of the SCTA members involved have been insulting to the ECTA or any of its members. Of course there is no official document, or statement, to support my contention. However, one must have seen postings critical of our safety, procedures and the validity of records set here. Were they made by people involved with SCTA? Possibly. Are they even members of the SCTA? Perhaps not. Am I one of the "hit dogs", yes. Could I run if not on a record-just for seeing what I can do with what I've got. Am I ignorant of every west coast track rules, certainly. Have I "heard" stories of inspection difficulties and inconsistancies visited on east coast participants? many times. But my primary point was meant to be "stop throwing rocks" and I was preaching to wrong folks.
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I will admit to being critcial of one thing, the record certification procedure as used in organizations other the the SCTA-BNI.
As to the people who run the events and compete at said events I have no problems. I like (almost) everyone. The records set at Maxon, Texas and Loring have absolutly no effect on the SCTA-BNI and I don't care. I do have an opinion about something but, it is no big deal.
"Have I "heard" stories of inspection difficulties and inconsistancies visited on east coast participants? many times."
I know of one person who is affected by this statement, other than him I would hope that all East coast competitors are treated as fairly as anyone.
DW
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Since I was the one who said something about the validity of records, I will respond. I have the utmost respect for the ECTA and all of the racers there. My comment was not meant as a slur on their integrity. Unfortunately there are cheaters in racing, sad but true. So if you dont measure a motor the cheaters have freedom to do so. If you know your motor is going to be measured then you dont try. I hate cheaters. And yes I said something about Maxtons safety record after someone questioned the safety of the Texas Mile.
Fred
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OK my turn,,, I like all the LSR organizations, I like all venues, I like Land Speed Racing wherever we can.
And yes sometimes I do sense bickering on here and that's just the nature of this impersonal form of communication, the written word on here many times does not convey the writers intent, emotion or facial expressions or body language.
So the reader can and sometime does take it wrong... I am guilty of that too.
So let's all enjoy each other and have fun,,, it's all good.. heck my motor is blown and block is toast and I am OK,, that's racing and I am looking forward to the new Improved E motor we are building...
NOW my opinion on Running Up in Motor Class...
I have never run on an open record.. I agree with Eric (Racer X) If a smaller motor say my E motor 255 cu in has the E/CGLAT record and I enter D/CGALT and I take that long standing record,,, then I am OK with that.. Matter of fact I did just that in October and took a D record that has stood for 4 or 5 years.. but in April another car came at got the record from me by 2mph,,, good for him,, it is fun.
If they wanna tear me down, no problem,,, I am 255.6 cu in on a 260.99 limit... Eric has done the same thing with his 250cc bike,,If our Little motors beats your big motor,, then you need to go back and make some more HP.. All in fun
Charles
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Amen, Charles. Tear down or no tear down it is all good.
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Ya got it right Charles, good job and well said. If my 100cc bike can beat your 125cc, I won,now it is up to you to beat me. That's what makes this fun.
Bob
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I have had the good fortune to hold an ECTA record, a Loring record and a Bonneville AMA record in the special construction 1000cc pushrod class. Each venue has its challenges. One isn't easier then the other they are just different. But it is all good. None of us own any record we just hold it until the next faster guy comes along.
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I just see the logic in making your bike faster in the class it belongs. There is alot of bragging rights, I would assume gratification knowing that your smaller engine is faster then all the higher classes. Ask Rick Y. about his streamliner, his record in G/BGS (352 mph (up to 2.0L)) is faster then every class all the way up to engine class B (337 mph (up to 7.10L)) with engines FIVE times his size. There is much respect for that, and reading about it. Of course that is just an opinion.
I guess it's just how you view, or your passion for the sport. I guess I have a good grasp on the history of the sport and what it stands for. Some like the records, others just keep fine tuning in the class they belong and go faster. I have always felt an accomplished racer is one who earns the respect from their peers. I guess it could be by the one who holds the most certificates or the one who goes fine tunes and goes faster. To each his own. Great job all racers no matter the orgranization. Scott Guthrie said it best years ago, that in order to acheive the record you must first break the record, then you must know who previously held the record and tell about their machine.
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For me its the points race.I do not enter the points race. I am entered into the points race.At the end of the year there is a number and finishing position next to my name. If I do something I try to do my best. That means breaking records that are soft to get maximum points.
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The ECTA is a young organization and I know who set what records . I run in the 350 class because those records where set by Tom Shafer to win a points chase. The 250 records where set by folks I know. I don't just try to take all the records. I only care about top speed. So I enter in a soft 350 class that no one cares about and try to get max points.But the real race is for speed. In the mean time the record book gets filled up. There are no open records and the records that are there are faster every year .I never run on a record that is someones only record in the book.
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While I run up in class, 650cc-750cc, g-bg, I always start the year of in what class we are 650/G. Once I move that record up, I'll move up to a higher class. I have a couple of friends that are 750cc riders and it is a nice competition to push them. I even had one of them get a 650cc bike so he could push back. Man, that's racing, that's where it is fun, that's like side by side drag racing or 40 guy's on the track roadracing. The Chase for Speed is an awesome experience, but when you can throw some good one on one competition in it also. That makes for a fun weekend.
As far as tear downs you can look all day and find we are a 636cc and 998cc. I tend to believe that the cheaters are few and far between. They are theere, no doubt. That's the nature of life. I remember many years ago when Yamaha had an FZR Challenge series with the winner getting a 1 year factory ride. Jamie Hacking one that and became a well known figure in American Roadracing. I competed in the series. At the end of the 1st race the WERA officials impounded the top 5 finishers and did an unannounced teardown. This happened at all the regionals and nationals. Competitors were unaware it would happen. Everyone was found to be legal. I personally like the protest rule. We used it in roadracing. I had to pull my bike apart on 3 different occasions, but each time left the track with an additional $500.
I think a man I respect a great deal said it best in this thread. We don't own any record. Someone will come along and beat it. Best of luck to all in their next event.