Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: jww36 on March 25, 2011, 02:08:43 PM
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I am a newbie according to my profile on Landracing.com and am new to Land Speed Racing. After attending Speedweek for the first time several years ago (more on this later), I decided to build a gas roadster. This is my first attempt at building a car of any kind. This build diary is not intended to "show off" what I have done, but more of an explanation of how somebody gets started, if you're crazy enough to do it! I could write a book about the trials and tribulations I went thru. This effort represents almost 3 years, on and off for several reasons. The first was the loss of my father several years ago. Since his loss, I realized recently that he was the inspiration for this project, as the focus on this car helped me thru a difficult time. I know he would be proud. In his honor, the first pictures for this Build Diary are not of my car, but "his car". A project that he spent 10 years building. The first 5 years was spent building a quarter scale complete running Offy, from scratch. He started with a block of aluminum literely. Along the way, with the help of an older retired engine builder/machinist by the name of Ernie Bose, a cam grinder was even built to grind the cam for this engine. After the engine was completed, he started on the car, a quarter scale dirt champ car somewhat representative of the 98 Agajanian car. Dennis Webb, here in Orange County, CA, built most of the frame and the entire aluminum body by hand.
In honor of my father, pictures of "his build".
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Outstanding build.
Thanks for the picture.
Tom G.
PS. What are the aluminum Rods on the table for?
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That looks gorgeous, as always Dennis's work is outstanding. Tony
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John I look forward to watching your build. I worked with your dad on both the police and fire departments in Costa Mesa. Is the build being done at your shop on Logan? Jack
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Tom G.;
That is the set of Ariel Square 4 rods with your name on them!
John
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Jack;
Good to hear from you. Yes, the car is going together at my shop on Logan Ave. I'll start posting pictures in the morning. Come by any time.
John
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Awesome work and detail.
:cheers:
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Tom G.;
That is the set of Ariel Square 4 rods with your name on them!
John
Thanks John, I plan on going to see my Brother in the next two weeks, and will stop by your shop.
Tom G.
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Before I continue this build diary, I would like to say Mike Cook was one of the individuals who I called several times to ask stupid newbie questions, and he was always helpful. In the time of serious health issues, all of this stuff is insignificant. My prayers are with the Cook family fo a good prognosis and speedy recovery for Jr.
MY BONNEVILLE INTRODUCTION
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MY BONNEVILLE INTRODUCTION
Eight years ago, I couldn't have told you what a '32 Ford looked like. I wasn't a hot rod guy in any way. One trip to Speedweeks changed all of that. An old friend was flying his plane to Bonneville and asked me to go. I told him I wasn't interested. He persisted, as he didn't want to fly alone, so I finally agreed to go, if only for the plane ride. Upon arrival, we over flew the course and pits and the awesome spectacle below really blew me away. While the sights and sounds of Speedweek initially drew me in, it was the people I met that really sealed the deal for me. That first evening, I was invited to "happy hour" in one of the rooms of the Speedweek crew of Fjastad-Kinne Bothers. I felt a little uncomfortable walking into a small hotel room with a bunch of strangers, but I was made welcome. The team consisted of it's fearless leader Roy Fjastad, his daughter Kathy and husband Carl Olsen and their daughter, Carl Fjastad and his daughter, the two Kinne brothers Mike and Pat, Donny and Dennis McNeil, Jarmo Pulkkinen, and last but not least, the infamous Kenny Hoover. I liked Kenny immediately. He talked for quite a time about his feats of skill and daring as a land speed driver. I later found out, while Kenny is in fact a talented driver, his real talent is his singing voice. A little known fact I was secretly told some time back. Kenny was a backup singer for Elvis Presley in the early 60's.
After this Speedweek event, I still wasn't a hot rodder, but it sure got me think'in. Several years later, Roy told me you haven't done Bonneville until you do it with Fullbore Racing. I crewed for him that year and Mike Kinne drove his old front engine modified roadster to a new world record. I was by now hopelessly hooked!
Next entry - A newbie gets started.
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:? Having never built a car of any kind before, it was difficult finding a starting point. I knew I wanted to build a '34 bodied roadster and build my own frame, so I downloaded frame dimensions from Wescott's. I purscased a body from Dick Williams at Polyform. Then in the evenings, I sat down with a beer (or two) and started thinking, dreaming and drawing. I decided to go with heavy wall (.187") lower frame rails and made a template so they could be formed. I started with 2" x 4" frame rails. Since I would be running an SB2 motor, I was going to run the exhaust under the car and exit before the rear wheels much like a stock car. But if you factor in the exhaust crossover/X pipe for these motors, that's alot of exhaust system under the car. At El Mirage in November , 2007, During a wind delay, I spent alot of time talking to Doug Robinson who at the time was running the succsseful BMR gas roadster. During this conversation, Doug explained the benefits of running the exhaust all the way out the back. Once back at the shop, I opened a beer and thought about it. I then thought if I used 2" x 6" frame rails, I might be able to incorporate the entire exhaust system including crossover within the height of these rails so that nothing would be under the car. So after Wescott's determined outer frame dimensions, the interior of the frame was designed and built around the exhaust. The frame cross members would have to be cut, boxed and re-inforced accordingly requiring a little extra fabrication.
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Very nice build, looking forward to the progress. One question, have you fitted the body to the frame or are you going Wescott's prints? Tony
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Tony;
For the most part, using Wescott's frame dimensions. Body has been on frame and fits nicely.
John
P.S. - Since nobody responded to my comment about Hoover signing back-up for Elvis, I had better set the record straight and confess I was just joking. :-D
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I believed it. He's still got the do.
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jwww......great foto.
FREUD
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John,
On that Liberty box, are you going to use the shifter or are you are going to air shift it?
Tony
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Pretty obvious from the picture that you have picked up a welding torch and some fabrication skills also design. Great looking frame and a great start to what is looking to be a great build. What is your background?
Rex
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Rex;
I was a metal fabricator for Dan Gurney's All American Racers during the Toyota GTP days. Those cars were built entirely in house so it was a great time doing the fabrication. As I mentioned earlier on this build diary, even thou I was into racing, I wasn't a hot rod guy. That first trip to Bonneville changed that forever!
The one thing I realized during the building of this car, is that land speed racing is one of the last forms of motorsports where an average guy can build a car himself and compete. Building a race car is not one big project. It's a thousand or more SMALL projects, or should I say problems, that need to be overcome. And when you solve these individual problems by innovative thinking, trial and error, or just dumb luck, it is a great feeling of accomplishment.
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Very nice craftsmanship, and a super cool build! :cheers:
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Tony;
I'm going to use the manual shifter this year. For Bonneville, I think it will be fine. El Mirage might be a different story. For my first trip to Speedweek, I want to try to eliminate any items on the car that might be problematic, in other words, keep it as simple as possible!
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Hi John,
I’m always surprised at how difficult it is to build “a supposedly simple” racecar. But the brutal truth is it’s a challenge to make the design comprises necessary to pull it all together into a successful racecar/work of art.
Incredibility well done!
Skip Pipes
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Skip;
It's a Little after 3:30 AM and I'm in the shop. My minds going like it's on a record setting run. Have you been there, done that? I know you have. Pretty cool having two new roadster builds 5 miles apart.
When I started the frame, I didn't want the floor and step pan brackets permanent to the frame as I wanted to be able to remove them to prevent rust between them, so they were drilled, tapped and bolted on. I powder coated the frame. I know there have been some comments on Landracing.com recently about P/C. If my car was an off road car or truck, I wouldn't P/C the frame. A landspeed car probably sees more stress going in and out of the trailer then it sees on a GOOD run. A BAD run, on the other hand... well we won't worry about that yet. I was worried about P/C build up on both frame and floor/step pan mounting angles requiring all the mounting holes to be opened or filed, so I had the mounting angles coated with a process called Ion Vapor Deposition (IVD). It is a vacuum plating process that deposits pure aluminum on nearly any metal. It has very high corrosion resistance and is .001".002" in thickness. A good friend of mine, Tim Connell, of Connell Chevrolet here in Costa Mesa has it done for me by Embee, Inc in Santa Ana. He has been a great help and enthusiastic supporter in this build. The picture below shows the coated angles, and also the exhaust as it snakes thru the frame.
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No matter how long, or how much you scratch your head to avoid boxing yourself in the corner, you still sometimes do! At the rear of the frame, I realized the lower 4 bar would be resting hard on the very top edge of frame in droop. With the weight of rear end and springs on coil over shocks extended, it would probably bend the 4130 .06 wall 4 bar tube. In addition, I found I wouldn't be able to get shocks on unless I compressed springs (pain in the ars). So I notched the top of the frame for clearance. I realized this would take some structure away from a critical junction. I was always going to just cap the end of chassis so I could run a rag thru it yearly for cleaning and a little rust preventative. So I machined an aluminum block that slid nicely inside this rectangular frame member, and drilled and tapped into not only the inboard surface of the tube, but the frame upright as well. And, the aluminum block makes for the ideal mounting of the end plate. Like I said, it's not a BIG project, just lots of LITTLE problems!
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if the fab work is a guide to the rest of the build then I'm impressed, lookin forward to seeing more as it takes shape.
As a side note though....the hoops that join the main cage, right or wrong I think they are supposed to have plate gussets....? I note that you've added the trimmed bars to effectively create a gusset, but from memory these, if built to the book, should be plate....am I dreaming?
Regardless, looking forward to seeing more,
Drewfus :-)
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The one thing I realized during the building of this car, is that land speed racing is one of the last forms of motorsports where an average guy can build a car himself and compete. Building a race car is not one big project. It's a thousand or more SMALL projects, or should I say problems, that need to be overcome. And when you solve these individual problems by innovative thinking, trial and error, or just dumb luck, it is a great feeling of accomplishment.
Words of wisdom that could inspire. I had similar feelings when I built my first street rod. I think I will take these words, put them on a sign and hang it in my shop.
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Drewfus:
The roll cage gussets I used were approved by both Lee Kennedy, SCTA Car Technical Committee Chair, and Steve Davies, SCTA Car Chief Inspector. These gussets are formed and used for this specific purpose, to reinforce tube junctions. It's just my opinion, but plate gussets are not very attractive, and, no matter how much you chamfer or radius the edges, you still have a straight "blade" of material in cockpit.
One of the things I did during the build of this car was ask thousands of questions. I am fortunate that minutes from my house, there is a wealth of landspeed knowledge. This group, lead by salty veteran and grand puba Jack Underwood, along with his merry men, meet daily in a secret hideout known as "Jack's Garage". They have helped me immensely. I have called Russ Eyres numerous times to help me understand some of the grey areas in the rulebook (grey areas in the rulebook?). He was always eager to help me. I've called Mike Cook several times, and he always took the time to help a newcomer to the sport. Steve Davies has answered questions and even came to my shop to look at car to make sure I was pointed in the right direction.
After my first Bonneville experience, if I could have bought a book titled "How a Newbie Gets Started in Landspeed Racing and Wants to Build His Own Car", I would have paid a thousand dollars for it. Not only would it have saved me hundreds of hours in time, it would have saved me that much in scrap material!
John
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John, The detail on your chassis is amazing!!! Looking forward to your next update. :cheers: Tony
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Thanks all for your complements. Anyone is capable of doing this. You just got to be a little crazy, work hard, and not compromise your efforts.
I put in a little extra effort in trying to seal the cockpit from El Mirage dust. Picture is of closure panels around bell housing, trans, and drive shaft cover.
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Closure panels
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A little extra effort, that's an insane finish, sure you not off to Pomona for the GNRS?
Got any close ups of your gussets and comments from the SCTA on their acceptance?
You Socal boys really do have it easy as far as nipping round the corner for some LSR exprience....
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John,
Very nice work. Who makes that shifter?
Tom G.
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Beautiful craftsmanship, and yep anyone can do this with a REAL fat wallet. ya can't get those kind of results with Pep boyz stuff. Ain't moaning just a lot crazy,work hard and it takes many months to get where you are in weeks, good show.
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John,
I have had the privilege of going to Jack's Garage, great group of guys and yes tons of Bonneville experience. You probably know a good friend of mine that is a Jack's almost every day, Stu Van Dyne , tell him "Rotisserie" said hello.
You think you will make the May Elmo??
Rex
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Tom G. - Liberty makes this box and shifter. Several years ago, I went to Pomona for the World Finals to try to talk to some Pro Stock guys about the Liberty 5 speed they use. This one gentleman with a Pro Stock car was really neat to talk to and spent 15 minutes with me. He looked familiar, but not being a huge NHRA fan, I didn't realize it was Bob Glidden. When he finished talking, he gave me a business card and told me to call Craig Liberty on Monday, and tell him Bob Glidden said to give me a sweet deal on a 5 speed!
Captthundarr - I WISH I did have a fat wallet. My advantage over some in the building of this car is that I am a metal fabricator, so my labor cost is cheap (the reason it's not free is every once and a while I have to do something for the wife to keep her happy!). This build that is finally coming together in a matter of weeks has been an on and off again 3 year effort.
Rex - Good ole Stu. Actually, Stuart has been a tremendous help in the building of this car. He dynoed my motor in exchange for some stuff I had. He came to the shop and spent 4 hours when I fired the motor in January. He looked at the engine installation and plumbing and quietly recommended some minor changes, which I immediately made. One of things I realized about Stuart pretty quickly, he doesn't say something just to talk. And when he says something, I listen. The other things I realized, not only is he an awesome engine guy, but his overall knowledge of race cars is equally awesome. I have asked him chassis questions, suspension questions, you name it. You then analize what he is saying and you realize he is spot on. In fact I'm kinda having some marital problems with the wife, and, hmm, I might consult with Stu!.
John
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Not only is this a knock out build, your fotos are marvelous.
Congratulations on both areas.
See if Jack has a shirt your size in the pile.
You are "left out" unless u can wear a Jack's Garage Shirt.
FREUD
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all cool, and completely agree on the guset deal to be clear.
Your workmanship is excellent, and displays the complete package from design to fitment, and have every confidence that is will perform as good as it looks, awesome.
Again, appreciate the details on your build and look forward to seeing more, I'd buy a book if you wrote it,
Cheers,
Drewfus :-)
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A few more pictures as requested.
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Pedal assembly. Tilton pedals using Wilwood single master cyclinder mounts, since Tilton didn't make single M/C mounts.
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Dash - Trying to keep it to the point and simple.
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Shop cat, TIG, overseeing the build and taking a much deserved nap.
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If you take the advice of the cat, you will be well advised.
Sleep on the job.
FREUD
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Well, I've started a new chapter in my book, "How a Newbie Gets Started in Land Speed Racing and Wants to Build His Own Car"!
This chapter is titled, "If You Want it Done Right, You Better Do It Yourself".
Quite a while ago I bought a Franklin quick change off EBay for $750. Not knowing anything about them, I took it to a company that specializes in quick changes and asked them to go thru it. $1400 bucks later I was questioning my EBay "good deal". But at least I thought one item I won't have to worry about during the building of my roadster. Wrong! I pulled one side off the rear end to determine ring and pinion ratio, and it was full of metal. It was never cleaned properly. So I took it all down and cleaned it hoping setup and everything else would be OK. Wrong again. I noticed the bronze pad behind the ring gear was about to fall off the pin locating it. In talking to people, I was told there should be .005" to .007" clearance between this wear pad and ring gear to keep it from deflecting away from the pinion. It had .065" clearance, but the bigger problem was there was absolutely NO adjustment for this pad as the pin is pressed into the bell! The hole in the case for the shaft was .375" but was stepped down outside the bell to .335" which is about the drill size for 3/8-24. By modifying a tap I was able to thread it for an adjustment screw. I then drilled and tapped a 1/4-28 hole for set screw to lock shaft in place after adjustment, and then made a new bushing bronze pad with .375" shaft.
Another half a day spent on something that wasn't on my TO DO LIST. And El Mirage is getting closer.
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New wear pad of bushing bronze.
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Yep, you've got that right. It seems those of us who "thought" we knew how to build a race car "really" seem to learn a lot of other things along the way......... I know way more about body & paint work now than I EVER wanted to. :cry:
Great build, I think I'll up date my build page with our changes for this season too. 8-)
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I'd be interested in the Dynoroom updates.
If I was jww36, I wouldn't question the purchase. I'd question the company that
did his $1400 rebuild.
FREUD
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I was thinking the same thing. When I pulled that cover an found metal and other crapolla, I would have loaded it up and taken it right back!
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On the ground for the first time. I almost feel like a kid again!!
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Getting closer!
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Thats great, I know you said you were going to run a SB2 but what size?
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James;
358 cubic inch.
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James;
358 cubic inch.
You going use a take out nascar engine?
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Yea, I bought one on ebay. At least they said it was a NASCAR motor!
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Any more if you run in any of the "C" gas classes you need to have a NASCAR engine. They make the most horsepower and the dollar/hp on the used ones is about the best you can find. Try to have someone build you a 358 inch anything that makes 850 hp and not spend $30,000. I have seen the NASCAR "used" engines for around $15000.
John your car is really starting to look close, C gas roadster is a really tough class, looking forward to seeing you at Bonneville.
Rex
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When you bought the motor and the guy told you is was a Nascar engine -- watch out. Maybe he had a thick southern accent and was really saying it was from a "nas car" (as in nice car w/accent) :evil:
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Are you guys with the 114 car?
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Jorge;
That depends. Do I owe you any money??
Yes, the 1934 Ford Gas Roadster is the 114 car.
John
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Im blown away by the craftsmanship of your roadster build. You should write that book, Id sure buy it. Im looking forward to checking it out in person at Bonneville
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Mtkawboy;
Thank you very much for the complement. We are all driven in different ways. I lost my Dad during the building of this car. I didn't realize it until recently, but the focus on this build helped me thru a difficult period. My Dad wasn't big on showing his emotions, offering complements, or telling me he was proud in what I did (metal fabricator). I know he was watching me during the building of this roadster, and I know he is proud of the effort.
John
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On the ground for the first time. I almost feel like a kid again!!
John,
You do nice work. The car is looking great. Looking at the picture brings up a question. When sitting in the car with your helmet on how far out in front of the car would it be until you can see the ground?
Tom G.
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jww36 - dont think you need to worry about anyone not being amazed with your craftsmanship
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John, your car is craftmanship in action. Nice job.
Just don't let Desotoman see your exhaust :-D
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John, Are those pipes and tips a Dr. Gas set up? Tony
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desotoman;
The body has some rake to it, so visibility is fine.
Dynoroom;
The exhaust on this car kept me up more then a couple of nights! And I can blame Doug Robinson for that. Originally I was going to terminate the exhaust out the side thru the frame in the way the cup cars do today. But at a wind delay meet at El Mirage, I talked to Doug in length about exhaust systems and he convinced me to go all the way out the back. With the cross over incorporated into the frame, and cutting apart the Dr. Gas exhausts outlets and modifying them to fit, I would guesstimate 100 hours in the exhaust system and it's routing to the back. I gotta tell you thou, I've been told the sound is worth the effort!
John
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Tony;
Yea, they were actually cut apart and narrowed up to clear quick change.
John
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JamesJ - glad to see you're paying attention
John - Those 100 hours will pay for themselves in performance (although not at a decent shop rate!) :) I'm really looking forward to seeing you and your car @ Speedweek.
vic
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My dad was the same way, you may rest assured he is proud of the work youve done on the car. Looking forward to seeing it in person at Speed Week
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Come to think about it yes you do and I'll take that rolling art work as payment..LOL.. Great job on the build it looks awsome. I stoped by your pit during this past sundays meet after I saw you guys make a pass to get a better look. I wanted to introduce myself but you guys looked real busy and I didnt want to interrupt the work flow. Im wanting to build a roadster myself and I would like to meet you in person and next months meet " if you're there" and ask some questions, if thats alright. Again, sweet build and it sounds real nasty too " in a good way"
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Sounds Like I will be talking to Doug about exhaust on my new Lakester I was wondering how to "ramp up" to fit my larger displacment
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Jorge:
We had a problem on the shake down pass so we will be back in July. Stop by.
While I have threatened to write a book about my experience (ordeal?) during this build, another chapter would have to include my first SCTA meet with this new roadster. Saturday INSPECTION - 2 hours!The inspectors really only had one issue with the car itself. The panel that prevents your feet or legs inside the car in case of rollover, I put that panel on the outside of the frame, and they wanted it on the inside. And I had no panel above my feet. No problem, a simple sheet metal fix on Monday. The big issue, and a stupid one on my part, the Willians seat belts I had in the car expired in APRIL, 2011. Steve Davies came up to me and said, "I'm disappointed in you. You should have noticed that". Honest to God, I felt like a scolded school kid. So now we have Steve and four other inspectors huddled behind the car trying to decide if I could run or not. And I realize, and everyone else should realize, their position is to keep us safe, not to keep us from enjoying this sport. They finally decided to let me run after Joe with DJ Safety came up with some fixes. By the way, Joe, I owe you a six pack.
Part 2 - Sunday coming next.
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Further proof that the inspectors WANT you to be able to run.
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One time I ordered my crotch straps from a "big name" cat house turns out they had only little over 1 year left on a 5 yea :-o r---needless to say I ordered the replacements direct from some one who would restrap and recert.. 8-)
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One time I ordered my crotch straps from a "big name" cat house
Sparky, What are you doing ordering crotch straps from a cat house? Hmmm :-o Tony
"Because I was too lazy to try to spell C A T A L O U G E"
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Sorry it wasnt a smoother day for you guys. I'll make sure I stop by next meet.
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John,
I was at Jack's over the weekend and they said you had a few problems, other than the inspection stuff at El MO and I saw you ran around 125 mph. Give us the "Full" story.
Rex
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Do you have any more pictures of you exhaust and how it exits the rear of the car? After the collector is it basically just rectangular tubing?
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JamesJ;
Go to the Dr. Gas web site. They show the cross overs and "boom tubes" like I'm running. The cross over goes from 3.5" round out of the headers to an oval all the way to the start of the boom tube.
John
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Rex;
"Full Story" in the morning.
John
P.S. - You said you were going to stop by the shop when you were down. Did I miss you?
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John,
I was down for the LA Roadster's Father's day show and staying with a friend, cut time pretty short and only had time for Friday morning at Jack's and a quick trip to Stu's shop. PM me your address and I will make sure I stop by next time.
Rex
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The "Full Story"
Sunday morning - First shake down run.
Great day, great weather. Gene Barbee and his crew, Steve and George, come to El Mirage to help push off. The car is prepped and ready to go. As we push to the start line staging, the right rear tire starts rubbing the inner fender well. We push back to the pit and see the rear axle has shifted to the left letting right tire rub. I assume it is because I set panard rod while car is on jack stands, so we readjust rear panard rod. Off we go to the start line again. Now the left tire is rubbing the inner fender well. What the f#%k, over. We now realize the rear panard mount is flexing while the car is being pushed while turning. The rear axle centers itself going straight. We all decide it will be OK to make a shake down pass as long as it goes straight! I was limited to speed on that first pass any way.
My "engineering" and fabrication philosophy. Keep is as simple as possible, without compromising it's needed purpose. This philosophy doesn't mean the "simplest" way is the "easiest" way. Case in point, I couldn't use Dzus fasteners to hold the fibre glass body on because of the thickness of the two mating materials, AND, I don't believe in Dzus fasteners LOCATING body panels. So what I did on the hood and tonnoue cover is pin the front surface to hold in place and locate, and install floating 10-32 nut plates in the lower flange and use counter sunk 10-32 allens to secure body work.
Back to the run - I left the push truck pretty quickly. Took it to 6800 in first, and had a little difficulty getting into second, and then into third. Wait a second... Houston, we have a problem! The rear of the car is acting like it's on ice. It wasn't losing traction, it's just skating right, then left then right. Chute out!
Back to the pits to diagnose problem. Back to my engineering and fabrication philosophy? Well sometimes we don't follow our philosophy and get a little too cute. Because I don't have a tube bender, and because the rear panard rod needed a bend in it, I decided to fabricate one in three pieces and bolt it together. WRONG. Panard rods are not supposed to hinge in the middle!!
Keep It Simple Stupid!
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That's a lovely, but scary, piece.
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JWW36;
Make sure your Panhard rod mounts are in-line horizonally (equal height above ground) at your normal ride height. If they aren't, the Panhard rod will move the axle sideways as the axle goes up & down-- not good! I've seen quite a few Panhard rods mounted wrong.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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John, John, John! shame on you!! Looks pretty, works shi__ty. Rather than have a panhard with a bend in it I would have looked a a Jacob's ladder. Might fit better and not have a hinge in it. If you have to have a bend in the panhard then go with a large diameter, 1.5 inch with .120 wall at least.
Tell me the amount of bend and I will send you a piece of 1.5x.120 with the bend in it. I have a length in my tube rack.
This all leads to one of my favorite sayings: "When you learn by experience, the test comes first and the lesson comes afterward." Bet you won't do it again.
Rex
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I have a roadster (G class) that is ready for inspection. You mentioned when you had the inspection at El Mirage, they wanted a leg retention panel above the legs. Can you explain what they wanted or clarify because I have never seen anything like this in the rule book. I would hate to go to Utah and find this out. Your roadster looks great! I appreciate the help to get through inspection!
Francis
Tucson
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Hey John, how much feet of square/round tubing do you think might have been used to complete your car?
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Francis;
If you go to my first frame picture on this build site, you will notice a square tube running diagnally from fire wall bulkhead to square dash brace that goes across entire frame. The inspectors wanted a panel underneath that entire area to keep feet or legs from coming UP out of that area. Thet said a safety net would do the same, but I'm not a fan of those nets. I think they could do more harm then good if you roll and your arms or legs are tangled in those things.
If you want to send me a cardboard pattern cut to fit your car exactly, I can make you a sheet metal panel.
John
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john thank you for your quick reply. i figured that is what they wanted. thank you for the offer to cut up some sheet metal for me; but,i have my steering and u-joints for steering in that area. it is best for me to fit it to the car. i love the workmanship on your car and really understand what it takes to make it simple and workable.
Francis
Tucson
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How many days before El Mirage?
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Where you able to get the panel above your feet taken care of, looks like there's a lot of work to get done. Hope all goes together well and see you guys next weekend.
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Jorge;
Got our panels done, installed new Schroth seat belts, and in my "spare time" replaced the manual shifter on the Liberty trans with an air shift set up that was shipped to me yesterday. Panard rod/watts link tomorrow and Monday.
See ya at the races!
John
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Hope your plans and the car are on track for next month. Having this month off must have giving you more time to prepair for Bonneville, what if any changes have you made to the car?
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Jorge;
Car is coming together nicely. I made a quarter scale fiber glass model to determine paint scheme, and the body is being painted as we speak. The big stuff is done, just about a thousand little things remaining. How many days before Speedweek?
John
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:-o sleek,simple and clean very nice! Cant wait to see your car out on the salt. How much would it cost me if you made a scale model of that size but for a 32 roadster?
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Let's see. The little '34 body is about quarter scale. I'd say a quarter scale '32 body would cost about a quarter of what a full size '32 body would cost! :-P
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:? I'll stick to the smaller scale, ha!
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Best of luck John!
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How did you do!
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Jorge;
Overall for a new car, I was happy. The car ran fantastic, but the rear end wanted to "float" a bit. That prevented me from really getting on the throttle hard. I'm pretty sure I know the problem, lack of weight. At 2976 pounds with driver, we were just too light for the course, which other people have said they experienced the same problem. And just to set the record straight, I spun the car on my second to last run, but I have a good excuse! A veteran LS racer (who I shall keep nameless) was kind of helping us, and when I told him the rear of the car was "floating or dancing", he said all roadsters do that. He told me, "You gotta drive thru that". So on the run I spun, I was on it hard. In 5th gear at the 2 mile, just a little below 8,000 RPM, and BAM, without any indication whatsoever, the car broke traction and snapped left, then right, then left...Clutch in quick, out of gear and ignition off, and wait for the car to quit spinning. I think it spun for three or four minutes, or so it seemed. Lee Kennedy drove up, asked if I was OK ( my ego was severely bruised) and asked what happened. I told him I was too aggressive and it spun on me. I had to go back to inspection, and the first inspector asked me if I knew what I did wrong, and I told him, "way to aggressive". A few minutes later, Kiwi Steve came up to me and said "I have two words for you mate, TOO AGGRESSIVE". All of us kind of chuckled together, and then I told the group what so and so (the veteran racer) told me, that I had to DRIVE THRU IT, and all the inspectors really started laughing. They then told me that this guy holds the record for spins, and why was I taking driving instructions from him. Anyway, the car was fine and on my last run we changed some things and it actually felt better, but they did in fact move the course over night.
So we have a little work to do, but over all, for a newbie, I was happy with our first Speed Week.
John
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Hey John - Glad I got to meet you while waiting in line and got a chance to look over your car. It's beautiful. And it's true you need more weight. We're up to about 4000 with the C engine in the rear-engined mod. roadster. See you on the Salt next year (maybe WF this year?). vic
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You gotta drive thru that". :cheers: :cheers:
ugh I think the words that popped into my pea brain on a back up run were " Well sooner or later you are going to have to find out if you can handle this." ---same results as yours "to aggresive and overdrove the course" :-D lol :cheers:
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We waited to run the next day when we heard the course would be moved.
As we left around 8:00, we drove down old course #1 and observed a LOT of loose salt on surface, glad we waited but had to shut down both runs the next day due to Lexan windows flexing out.
JL222
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JL222;
Our last run was Wednesday morning after our Tuesday spin. The course had been moved and I wanted a conservative pass just to make sure the car was OK. For whatever reason, the car felt much better on that run, and that was the best run we had (219 MPH). I don't have enough experience to say for sure, so I don't know whether the course change made the car feel better, or just driving a little easier helped.
Just weighed the car, I know we're too light at 3054 lbs. with driver.
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John,
Congratulations on your Bonneville outing. You will get it figured out.
Tom G.
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I would add 500# MINIMUM before you run it next time. Mine is 3500 and 215 is as fast as I have gone. I will add wieght before I try to go faster. 214 was like it was guided by a laser beam, next morning on a fresh course she was evil!!!! Good luck.
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ahhh we they move the course :-P :cheers: :cheers:
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Roadster943;
That is the exact amount I am figuring. I have some .312" stainless steel plate that I am thinking about using as a step pan (you can't put weight any lower then that), and then using the lead within the frame to balance car. That (balance) will be the big question.
John
Thanks Tom for the coment.
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John,
Did you have any trouble passing through tech with the Dick Williams roadster body? Do you happen to know the dimensions of the 34 roadster?
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John, contact Russ Eyres on the SCTA roadster committee (SCTA web site) for the legal dimensions on the roadster body. He should have them all
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Glen,
I was wanting to know the dimensions not John. I know there are a lot of companies offering reproduction bodies, but got some good information from a friend that not all reproduction bodies meet the dimensions that the SCTA use, i didnt know that. Thanks for the extra info Glen.
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OK Jorge sorry on the name mixup.
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I sent you a pm so that we wouldnt take up space on Johns page.
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Jorge;
When I decided to build a '34 Ford roadster, the first thing I did was look for a source for a fiber glass body. I was told about Dick Williams Poli-Form in Watsonville, CA at that time. I actually drove up to talk to him and my first question was is his body legal. He told me the mold is an actual splash from a steel '34. He also mentioned several people had run his bodies with success, including Chuck Salmen's Sum Fun roadster, which I believe holds or held records. I believe this is the Mariana Farms car now. What I was more concerned with was his fiber glass nose. I then contacted Russ Eyres and asked him about Poli-Forms nose, and he said it was legal as long as it was not tilted back too far, and he gave me a dimension for that. The next step was the frame, and where to start as I had no information. I went online and found Wescott's Auto web site and they gave all the frame dimensions for '32 and '33/'34 roadsters.
When I took my car to El Mirage in June for shake down, I asked Russ to come by my pit and look at my car closely to see if there was something that might cause me some problems, as I was more concerned about exhaust and an area around the cage, but he said everything was staisfactory.
One of the reasons I started this blog was for individuals who might be new to LSR and might want to build a car. My thought from day one was to build a car that is 100% safe and 100% legal. If you are going to take the time to do it right, and you are fortunate enough to go fast and possibly get a record, don't be stupid and build something that is questionable legality wise. I've talked to Russ Eyres dozens of times. I've talked to Roy Creel about fire systems, Lee Kennedy about safety equipment. I had Steve Davies come by and look at my frame during construction. If I had a buck for every question I asked, it would have paid for this car!
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John,
The reason I was asking is that Skip Pikes told me to be carefull on which company I go with when purchasing a reproduction body. I didnt know that the SCTA had deminsions for roadsters that needed to be followed. Ive already sent an email to Russ Eyres and Im waiting for his reply. Awhile back I had looked at the Dick Williams bodies insearch for a 32 body, decided to go with another company, turns out those reproductions arent really reproductions. After taking lots of measurements Ive realized that in order to run the setup I want to I need more room in the engine compartment. The 34 can be extended a bit more than the 32 thats how my question came about the roadster company of your choice. Your build diary along with others have been a huge help for the new guy wanting to get into Land Speed Racing. The 34 body is the one im going to go with. Thanks to you and Glen for the info.
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Jorge;
The key to any fiber glass body is what was the mold taken off of. If the mold was taken off of a modified '32 body or '34 body, you are going to have a modified reproduction body. And because everybody building repo bodies out there are looking for a cleaner or slightly different look, this is common on '32's. Who ever you get a repo body from, have him give you in writting it is a splash off an original un-molested car.
John
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A problem which has become evident in the past is that as multiple bodies are taken from a mold the "original" size changes and the bodies are no longer OEM size. Records lost over this issue.
DW
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I understand what you're saying John, I'll wait till Russ responds to move forward.
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DW,
When a car goes through tech for the first time, are the dimensions measured at that moment or after a record has been reached or set?
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Or a protest from another roadster crew :roll:
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During the impound process. You are sure jumping into the deep end for a first time effort.
DW
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DW,
I dont want to start any problems or create any issues with anybody, and theres nothing wrong with wanting to know what kind of problems one could deal with later on in the future. It sure would suck to run for 5 years or more and make it to impound "the ones that make it" only to find out that there body dimensions dont match and the pass wont count. Thats what I want to avoid. I dont see anything wrong in planning for the future.
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You missed my point. Starting a LSR career with a roadster is a tough way to go.
DW
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I hope my reply to you Dan wasnt taken in a negative way as I can assure you that was never my intention. As Ive come to find out, this is a hard way to start an LSR career but If enough research gets done on my part and with help of other experience members I know I can build a roadster that can offer some good competition in chasing future records and maybe "set one of my own"
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If you want to build a 33/34 look to the fastest one of Dave Davidson. His definatly has the "stockest" demensions of any of then especially in the hood side panels where the the stock front and back edges are NOT parrellel from Henry. I'm not going to comment or others or what is allowed by the committee; just what the rule book says and how Henry built them if you are going to work with a Ford.
Today other brands are showing up and guys are doing their homework by bringing all the stock demensions with them and then doing what the SCTA rule book allows for the class.
Don't be discouraged.......I never was...............................JD
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John, lets pretend you forget to install a bracket on the frame and you clean the area to bright steel and weld one on. How do you repaint the area to match the powdercoat on the surrounding parts? Also, a few details about the aluminum paint would be helpful.
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Wobbley;
Good question. The best and only way is to have someone in the car painting business to match to color, Anthracite in my case, and touch it up. A pain, but that's pretty much all you can do. Seymour sells a stainless steel spray paint, but it didn't hold up to the salt. I have a good friend who has access to IVD (Ionized Vaper Deposit) coating. Absolutely fantastic. It goes on steel , aluminum, titanium, anything. It is an aluminum coating that is done in a vacuum. It held up great. I can't tell you the cost, as mine was done as a favor. But one thing about it, you'll never have to worry about those parts again.
John
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Thanks, John. If I use powdercoat I will use black or some other color that is easy to match.
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Any Roadster class roadster guy needs to pay attention to Jimmy6's posts.
He's way kinder than Stan Back is with St Rdstr rule benders, but don't think he can be fooled.
Words to the wise, like they say in South Central, and in LA County(jail), "He Be Knowin""
Would anyone want to POWDER PAINT a salt flats race machine?
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Bystander;
This blog is not about individuals trying to bend the rules or cheat. It's about individuals asking questions to make sure their car is legal. I think we would all agree in almost every class, there are grey areas open to interpertation in the rule book. I for one don't like that. But if the SCTA rule book covered every single issue in every single class, the rule book would be bigger then the McMaster-Carr catalog!
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Problems with powdercoat on some of my stuff made me do some research. The system can perform well. There is a vast difference in the coating performance based on the quality of the preparation, materials and the care and skill of the coater.