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Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: racer on February 11, 2011, 09:57:05 AM



Title: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: racer on February 11, 2011, 09:57:05 AM
A great friend and mechanical genius, Jim Bartlett in Portland has developed what may be the first H-D drive train mounted on a bed of rubber isolators. Were running all late model Busa suspension from the handle bars down in the front, with the same Busa rear wheel set.
Gathering parts and pieces with a target date for completion by early May with a street ridden, rubber mounted Hardtail frame. 
Drive train will consist of a 2004 Dyna twin cam 124" Turbo charged motor that is being transplanted from my 2004 that currently has over 160,000 roadworthy miles on the chassis and nearly 4,000 flawless miles on the Turbo set up since early Dec. The 5 Speed is being replaced with a fresh FLT 5 speed.
Please stay tuned for further up dates, were haulin Acura with this project.
 


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: 38flattie on February 11, 2011, 05:30:16 PM

H-D's have had rubber mounted engines for years, so can you explain how this "bed of rubber isolators" will benefit you?

Good luck with the project! :cheers:


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: nrhs sales on February 11, 2011, 05:57:10 PM
That belt drive primary is probably taking 5-10 mph top speed from you as it sticks out a good 3 inches more than a stock primary.


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: racer on February 11, 2011, 06:22:30 PM
Harley has rubber mounted units, but not in a hardtail ???  to my knowledge.
Goal is get in it, not on it and have a solid foundation that will not transfer vibration to the pegs, bars and my Acura, street and highway friendly as well as Bonneville ready.
We'll see what develops.
Thanks......



 

H-D's have had rubber mounted engines for years, so can you explain how this "bed of rubber isolators" will benefit you?

Good luck with the project! :cheers:


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: 38flattie on February 11, 2011, 07:26:16 PM
Haha! My reading comprehension went away again- I missed the whole hard tailed bit.

Anyway, good luck!


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: VeeTwin on February 12, 2011, 11:39:05 AM
A great friend and mechanical genius, Jim Bartlett in Portland has developed what may be the first H-D drive train mounted on a bed of rubber isolators. Were running all late model Busa suspension from the handle bars down in the front, with the same Busa rear wheel set.
Gathering parts and pieces with a target date for completion by early May with a street ridden, rubber mounted Hardtail frame. 
Drive train will consist of a 2004 Dyna twin cam 124" Turbo charged motor that is being transplanted from my 2004 that currently has over 160,000 roadworthy miles on the chassis and nearly 4,000 flawless miles on the Turbo set up since early Dec. The 5 Speed is being replaced with a fresh FLT 5 speed.
Please stay tuned for further up dates, were haulin Acura with this project.
 

Will this bike be faired or unfaired?

Do you have an idea of how much power it will take in either case? It's easy to underestimate the power needed for 200mph if you have no experience at this. It takes more than you might think. If you don't know, you should ask.

If you have a rough idea, the next question is whether the motor is capable of making that much power, and can it do it for miles at a time, over and over? Sure with a turbo you can get a lot of power out of the motor but will it survive? The cranks are a real trouble spot on these motors. Managing the heat and making the pistons live is another big challenge.

124ci is just over the 2000cc class limit, so it's not the greatest choice in sizes right there. You ought to either go smaller and make the 2000cc class or go bigger to make more power.

There's a reason that HD rubber mounts have their swingarms attached to the motor/trans assembly. By rubber mounting the motor independently of the rear wheel you're going to get big changes in the final drive tension as the motor moves around. Have you thought about how to solve that problem?

Good luck.



Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: saltwheels262 on February 12, 2011, 12:07:49 PM
ray,

sounds like a big project.
good luck.

franey


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: racer on February 12, 2011, 12:48:47 PM
This is a hard tail application....with a common motor/transmission bed that is mounted on rubber isolators.

The motor has over 130,000 miles on the lower end and fresh CP turbo pistons @ 8.1.1. Since installing the turbo the motor has over 70 hours running time without a hiccup.

The motor has made 8 passes on the salt, pre-turbo, 2 with turbo set up in 2010.

A fairing is being discussed. Suspension will be all Busa.

thanks for the interest and the input.
ray

 


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: VeeTwin on February 12, 2011, 01:28:16 PM
This is a hard tail application....with a common motor/transmission bed that is mounted on rubber isolators.

Yes, I gathered that, hence my question about how to manage the final drive tension. I'm not saying it's an unsolvable problem, just wondering if you've got a solution.

Quote
The motor has over 130,000 miles on the lower end

Being a 124 you probably have some kind of an aftermarket flywheel assembly. Most of those motors are 4.125 bore x 4.625 stroke although some people do them 4.250 bore x 4.375 stroke which could be done on a stock 07-later crank. Hopefully you've got good rods because a rod failure is ugly. With that many miles though I'd be concerned about fatigue regardless.

Have you looked at the pinion runout? Is it staying straight for you? It's a big challenge at the power levels it takes to go 200.
 
Quote
and fresh CP turbo pistons @ 8.1.1.

Since the pushrod motor is rpm limited your only option for making more power is to increase torque and the only way to do that without making the motor bigger is to increase cylinder pressure and that eats pistons. CP makes a fine piston but when cylinder pressures get too high it doesn't really matter much who's piston you have the aluminum melts.

Turbos are popular in LSR because it helps solve this problem by letting you cool the charge after some of the compression is done but before you put it into the motor. Do you have an intercooler? That's going to be really important at this power level.

Quote
Since installing the turbo the motor has over 70 hours running time without a hiccup.

Yabbut I'd be real cautious about reading that as a good sign for LSR. You'll need to make 200+ horsepower for miles at a time. It's a whole different deal.

Quote
The motor has made 8 passes on the salt, pre-turbo, 2 with turbo set up in 2010.

How fast did it run with the turbo? How much power was it making?


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: racer on February 12, 2011, 05:02:55 PM
Great well thought out questions.
The final drive will have with minimal movement since it's mounted on an isolator bed. we hope.....
Lower end is an S&S that's true as ever and well within specs, as of 3,500 miles ago when turbo pistons were installed. The lower end was build by Randy Torgenson in Des Moines, Randy has built a few motors over the years for me, all have been nearly perfect. Were running 4 1/8 pistons.
Set up the turbo with an 8# spring, had Bell inter cooler build an inter cooler designed for the turbo's maximum output.
On the first and only dyno pull thus far, with a slipping clutch (since then freshened up plus a Rivera lock up unit) we made over 170 hp @ 5,000...we attempted a touch more throttle and the bike nearly doubled the forks and tried to escape the dyno's restraints.
May make the Mojave Mile on the new set up, time will tell....possibly not.....BUB for sure....

 



Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: racer on February 13, 2011, 11:13:09 PM
Rolled to Long Beach yesterday evening and returned home today with late model Busa suspension for the build, front to rear. Next stop is the frame shop in Northern Oregon..


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: wobblywalrus on February 13, 2011, 11:45:37 PM
The last post says "late model busa suspension front to rear."  That swingarm rear end is a very good idea for a 200 mph bike.  Please post a few photos of the bike during the build.  I want to see how you mate everything up.  This is an interesting concept.


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: VeeTwin on February 14, 2011, 11:08:55 AM
Figure you're going to need around 200hp if you have a decent fairing and 230+ if you're naked.

Best of luck.


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: wobblywalrus on February 15, 2011, 01:54:08 AM
Racer, if you do use partial streamlining, it pays to use it from the beginning.  It takes some time to figure out how to get it to work.  The obvious reward is more speed with less power.  Two other benefits are it keeps most of the salt off of the bike and it is much more comfortable when a person is tucked down out of the wind behind a fairing.


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: nrhs sales on February 15, 2011, 12:08:02 PM
230+ hp naked is being very optimistic to go 200 mph.


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: fredvance on February 15, 2011, 04:06:05 PM
I had around 230hp last year and went 205 naked.


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: Briz on February 15, 2011, 06:56:27 PM
Racer; I shall be very interested to see whether you really have cracked the problems of rubber-mounting an engine in a rigid frame (although I'm now confused with the talk of using 'Busa suspension...?)
I've probably spent as much time working with rubbermounts as anybody; and I've not come across a setup which works well.
Obviously, as others have mentioned, if you rubber mount a chain/belt drive engine & trans in a frame without rear suspension, then as soon as you apply power, the drivetrain will pull itself backwards to the full extent that the rubbers will distend. The chain then comes off.
So; you introduce some means of stopping the engine moving back. Tie-rods etc. Trouble is, you then transmit all the horizontal vibrations into the frame but none of the vertical ones. As most engines vibrate in an elliptical motion, this ellipse is cut into jagged zig-zags.
The result is a much nastier vibration than would have happened with a solidly mounted engine. Cant keep feet on pegs, extremities (like light lenses) shattering. I once saw a license plate moving back & forth about 2 inches, when you could only flex it about a half inch by hand...
So, as I say, If you've avoided these pitfalls, I'll be very impressed.


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: racer on February 17, 2011, 02:53:24 AM
thanks.... we've designed a bed that runs from the front frame rails to the tip of the bottom portion of the rear fender, this foundation will rest on 8 rubber isolators that are secured to frame cross members. we will use heim joints to align and control movement of the bed.
Todays plan is to use a chain tensioner, or two on the rear chain.....at least that's todays plan thats subject to change as we head to the finish line.
will post photos soon.





Racer; I shall be very interested to see whether you really have cracked the problems of rubber-mounting an engine in a rigid frame (although I'm now confused with the talk of using 'Busa suspension...?)
I've probably spent as much time working with rubbermounts as anybody; and I've not come across a setup which works well.
Obviously, as others have mentioned, if you rubber mount a chain/belt drive engine & trans in a frame without rear suspension, then as soon as you apply power, the drivetrain will pull itself backwards to the full extent that the rubbers will distend. The chain then comes off.
So; you introduce some means of stopping the engine moving back. Tie-rods etc. Trouble is, you then transmit all the horizontal vibrations into the frame but none of the vertical ones. As most engines vibrate in an elliptical motion, this ellipse is cut into jagged zig-zags.
The result is a much nastier vibration than would have happened with a solidly mounted engine. Cant keep feet on pegs, extremities (like light lenses) shattering. I once saw a license plate moving back & forth about 2 inches, when you could only flex it about a half inch by hand...
So, as I say, If you've avoided these pitfalls, I'll be very impressed.


Title: Re: Wheeler Racing 2011 Quest for 200 MPH
Post by: TURK on June 15, 2011, 05:30:46 PM
Allright Wheeler whats going on,mines allready!!!---Turk