Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: MattStrube on January 06, 2011, 02:04:56 PM
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I'm thinking about buying a white car to build into a bonneville car; is it allowed to run as is paint wise? I thought I read a rule that says a bit about non-white cars (I'm at work and don't have the rule book in front of me), but I'd rather not paint it or add scallops to it, and want to confirm the "rule of law" vs. the "written rule". This truck is all white except for the numbers. Thanks. Matt
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Rules state " all white, silver, or unpainted vehicles shall show a contrasting color on the body.
Looks to me like contrasting numbers would work. As DW or NathanStewart.
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They are almost imposable to see from the timing trailer and for the course patrols,. the contrasting color is necessary, numbers are not enough. that truck is an old picture I believe.
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Yeah -- it's real hard to see that truck with the big numbers and the non-whitewall tires.
Oh wait, it's not white -- it's cream colored!
Stan
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whether you want to be timed or not might be a different story as well. I am sure Glen has stories, but I remember the BMW M3 liner was off-white with the blue and red stripe. return run early in the morning did not get timed. car ended up in the pond and did not run again.
Jim
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Glen,
That is indeed an old picture. so last year. Norris Anderson entered the 200 MPH club this past August. All the time slips I have seen from this truck equal the number of attempts.
DW
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Stan bring your old eyes to the tower that's 1000 feet from the course and tell me when you can see a white or silver vehicle, it's not that easy until they are right in front of us, some we still miss when they are small low vehicle and when they trip the lights we know where they are. If they turn out we need to know as well. We have had crews looking for them with no idea where they are.
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:-D
(http://www.whoi.edu/cms/images/oceanus/Visual-Observation035_550_61879.jpg)
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Is that the El Mirage tower?
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Looks like it with all that water! :-D :-D :evil:
Pete
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I think that is the lookout by tiny's house ! ! !
Just kidding
Ed
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In the used car buisness they have water base markers to number and letter the car and just wash off when it sells. Just get a couple of those and do a little art work so it can be seen (flames) and wash it off when you desalt it. 8-)
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:-D
(http://www.whoi.edu/cms/images/oceanus/Visual-Observation035_550_61879.jpg)
Are you sure its not an RAN patrol boat looking for grain silos?
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The telescope/camera or whatever -- might be a tad bulky to swing fast enough to keep a 250-mph car or bike nicely centered in the frame. I dunno, though -- maybe with a lot of practice. . .
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The telescope/camera or whatever -- might be a tad bulky to swing fast enough to keep a 250-mph car or bike nicely centered in the frame. I dunno, though -- maybe with a lot of practice. . .
Just look through it backwards, when they get small enough you know they are right in front of you!
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Thanks. M
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I painted a car white for the salt and added some grafics on the side. It was a big car. I was asked to call on the "white lightning" electric streamliner and have them add some color to the side of it since it was stored near where I live. I believe when then came back it had a red strip down the side and top...............
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You can run a car out there that is white... just put a little graphic on the side and a few stickers like these guys did.
Sam
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As the car is a very good deal, and I'd rather not paint it, is this a safety concern? Just trying to figure how much offsetting color I need, if any for safety. Thanks. I understand the risk of not getting timed because of visual issues.
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You should be able to go to any auto grahics sign company and get some large sticker material that you can apply just for the race and remove after if you don't want it on their permanently. Why are you making such a big deal about it?? The reason for this rule is very logical to me and I don't understand why you seem to be arguing about it?
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When I was Ice Climbing my partner and I always wore red gear, we joked it was so they could find our bodies easier in the snow. :-D I want it to be easy for the safety crews to find me if there is a problem :-o
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I have a white car. Anderson and his damn white truck (upped a soft record by 40 or 50 mph!) has a cream truck.
If you get lost, you can always set fire to it . . . . just a funny way of saying that maybe old Glen has a point.
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Believe me... I'll be the first one to set him straight.
That said, I don't think he's making a big deal of it.
It's just that he's getting conflicting input.
The rule book is saying one thing. And then there are cars that are running out there that are conflicting the rules.
And then there are people in-between...
Sam
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You will know if you have enough contrasting color when you go looking for it after the run. If it turned out toward the tower and you are a half a mile away and can't find it or know where it is then you will KNOW. :-o
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I look at the "White Rule" the same as I look at the safety rules.
Why buy a SFI 15 fire suit when for a few hundred more you can buy the best, a SFI 20?
Why only run the minimum fire extinguishers if you have room for more?
Why run standard Goodyear Front Runners when for three times more you have 300 MPH tires?
Why buy a used chute you don't know if it is the correct size?
What is your life worth if your car is on fire and they have to chase you down?
Screw the white paint..................................... Bob
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And the biggest kicker of them all... white cars are rarely found on white t-shirts. Just sayin'. :-D
The rule is pretty black and white (no pun intended): if your car is light colored, add some contrasting color to it so we can see the damned thing.
I think there is a saying that goes something like "don't sweat the small stuff". Well, this is the least of your worries if you're building a car.
Next?
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As the car is a very good deal, and I'd rather not paint it, is this a safety concern? Just trying to figure how much offsetting color I need, if any for safety. Thanks. I understand the risk of not getting timed because of visual issues.
I photograph cars at speed from near the 3 mile mark most every year, and can attest to the fact that some cars are almost impossible to see in certain lighting conditions. That last part is the key, car visibility changes dramatically during the day depending on the relative direction of the sun to the car and your point of view.
There are several cars that I have a devil of a time getting pictures of, because the autofocus on the modern digital camera cannot figure out where the car stops and the salt starts. Sometimes I get beautiful sharp pictures of the dirt embankment and the line of cars on the short course behind the car, but the car in the foreground is out of focus because the camera decided it was not the object of the photo. As a result all the pictures are just a bit out of focus, and sometimes the camera gets so confused, it zooms the lens completely out of focus trying to find the object I am trying to take a picture of.
(same applies to the completely black cars!!! )
If you want good pictures of your car at speed (when there is very little time for the photographer to get focus) do not paint the car completely black completely white or use contrasting color bands around the numbers except black drop shadow or white drop shadow depending on the number color. A white number with a red band around the perimeter on a black car looks like a fuzzy edged number to the camera at 1000' ft and 200 mph. The same number size in white or yellow on black will look tack sharp to the camera (and the eye) at distance.
The silver cars with dark numbers absolutely light up when the sun is on the viewers side, if the lighting is on the other side and it is a hazy day or early in the morning they are very hard to pickup as they appear light gray at distance and just blend into the background.
My suggestion is to use a contrasting color band at least 6 and preferably 8 inches wide or wider. Since the rocker panels are typically darker in most lighting conditions, put the stripe low on the door (which will help the lights pickup the car) or a strong color band that wraps over the car side to side similar to the Hot Rod Camaro.
Remember that the actual rocker panel will get covered with salt during a run, so a dark band will give little color contrast if placed too low on the door/rocker area after you make a run. Low mid door below the bodies belt line would be best.
(by belt line I mean the point on the body where the slant of the body changes from slanting toward the top of the car vs slanting toward the ground. The area above that line will always appear lighter and the area below that will naturally appear darker)
A black plastic air dam (if rules allowed in your class) will solve the timing issue.
The cars that are the easiest to photograph (ie see) are the cars that have large areas of contrasting color, and large numbers. By contrasting color I mean both the color difference and the brightness difference. Pale yellow on white is a color contrast but has very little brightness contrast which is the thing your eyes first pickup on distant objects. You see things by finding edges, then your brain assembles a shape that fits the edges.
If you can cover the digits of your cars numbers with your hand, I probably won't even bother trying to get a picture of your car, especially if the number color is of similar gray tone to the background color (ie red on black, green on gray or brown etc.)
I have lots of pictures of motor cycles that I have no clue who they belong to, because their numbers are so small and poorly placed (high on the rear fender right where the sun glare shows up), that I cannot identify the bike in the image. In many cases the only distinctive feature on the black bikes is the color of the helmet and the driving suit (assuming they are not wearing black leathers too). In some cases even with a long telephoto shot, I cannot read the bike number (and some car numbers) even after blowing up the image in post processing. There are several cars with 2 inch high lettering in red on a dark background that I never could figure out what the car number was until I got a shot of them on the return road.
In almost every case, the issue is numbers (digits) the size of a playing card or smaller, and low contrast colors.
One of the worst offenders being dark red on black, or dark blue/purple on black, or blue on red where both colors are of similar gray tone.
If you want something easy to read, never use dark blue or purple on red, The human eye cannot focus both colors at the same time, and in extreme cases of purple on red the numbers seem to float above the background because of the need of the eye to shift focus back and forth between the lettering color and the back ground color.
Dark red on black, may be easy to read in good light when you are 20 ft away, but is impossible to even see when photographed at 1000' in low contrast lighting.
Your sponsors will also appreciate it if lettering on the car is readable in pictures that might only be 2 inches across in a magazine or web page.
/end rant about color number choices car/bike owners use
Cheapest solution would be to buy a roll of 2" wide blue painters masking tape and use it to put some contrasting color stripes on the body.
It will peel off after your runs with no problem but is dark enough and a bright enough color that it will show up at a distance.
Larry
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Really great info, thanks for taking the time. :cheers:
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Hot Rod Thanks. I am presently working on my paint scheme. You info was very helpful.
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Too bad the tower and the photographer missed this one.
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I don't think we missed it even if it was on the short course. The thing is the inspectors should enforce the rule better. You have to remember we are 1000 feet from the course and some of the newer liner and bikes are quite small and low to the surface making them difficult to see. Dark colors show up a lot easier.
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Too bad the tower and the photographer missed this one.
Since those are my pictures, I can comment on that series of shots.
Keep in mind that those shots were made with a long telephoto lens.
They were then enlarged in software (cropped out a small portion of the frame to enlarge the image).
Then I made some gamma adjustments to improve visual contrast (adjusted how much change in image contrast is necessary to go from full black to pure white).
Those images are about the view you would have through a pair of binoculars, not the naked eye.
The only reason the car is easy to see is you are viewing it from the shadow side of the car, sun coming from the right beyond the car at 90 degrees from the point of view making many of the shots have a dark shadow side to the car. In the pictures I shot of the car while you were getting out of it after the spin, I had a tough time finding a setting where I could differentiate the car from the salt behind it. In part of the image there is effectively no difference in color between the car and the salt, and I could not digitally select the car, and do much with the contrast because the dynamic range of the photo was so extreme, (deep shadow and black tires against white salt and a white car).
In flat hazy light the view where there is no shadow side of the car visible is very hard to see.
Attached are two images that show about what the view looked like to the naked eye from my vantage point, if the car was in a position where there was little shadow side visible. My view was almost a mile away.
I removed the contrast enhancements to flatten the image contrast.
The second image is about the view the tower would have had as they were farther away.
Remember also that a crew trying to find a car are at a relatively low position and because of the curvature of the earth can only see about 1.5 miles. If the car is much farther away then that they will only be able to see the very top part of the roof. If it is white and the black tires are below the horizon they are looking for white on white. Throw in a bit of sun glare, dirt on your windshield dust on your sun glasses or salt dust from a spin and the outcome is obvious.
Larry
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We are 18 feet in the air in the timing tower with a little more visibility and can see right at 1-1/2 miles
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You will know if you have enough contrasting color when you go looking for it after the run. If it turned out toward the tower and you are a half a mile away and can't find it or know where it is then you will KNOW. :-o
People don't get the vastness of the salt ( here OR there) until they have to find something that isn't where it should be.....we spent ten minutes looking for our little red and white lakester the first year when the Reverend got lost down the long end of the course, missed the turn off, got lost on the return road, lost the road altogether, got behind the island, could't restart the car....it's hard to see that little thing front on against a white background....
The timers not being able to see the car is one thing, your crew not being able to FIND you is another.
From a thermodynamic perspective it'd be great to have a white car out there, it's just that no one will see you,and that can be dangerous for a number of reasons.
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Larry, THANK YOU for explaining a bit of why 30XX CSR should add some contrasting color to his car.
In recent discussions with the subject of speed timing he's aware of the problem a dragster nose yrs truly had designed with its problems because of the varying heights of NHRA's timing equipment down - track and my mathematical proof on the difference that 7/8" can make on that specific nose.
Nearly 4 mph lane to lane on NHRA's 66' timing trap. In roughly 30XX's speed range.
And he wonders why the BLACK roadster was 12mph over his record!
Let alone the YELLOW one's 6 gain!
(XXs added to avoid embarassment)
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For years now I have been one of the timers for the Short Course and Special Course at Bonneville for Speed Week. I would encourage all race cars and bikes not to be WHITE, its not easy to spot you at different points on the race course for me or for the patrols, please make our job a little easier and paint your race vehicles anything but White. It is a safety issue, especially if you turn towards the tower in an emergency and we can't see you!! Paint is cheap, use the correct color (Yellow, Red, Orange,Blue, green, black etc) so we can spot you and yes your race vehicle will even look better on your teashirt. Dave :?
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OK, so my yellow green and orange scheme should be fine :wink:
Serious, we are recreating a color scheme my dad had on his record setting Olds in 70. Sounds worse that it really is but those that lived in the 60s will dig it :cheers:
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Thank you everyone for your positive comments, this really helps clarify the importance of the rule. Matt