Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: NathanStewart on December 13, 2010, 05:29:10 PM
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I finally decided to take the time during my lunch break and ask "the community" about a certain rule that has always kind of interested me. I only have an '09 rule book available here at work so I'll refer to it... the "rule" in question is in Section 1 under Technical Inspection and it reads "All vehicle technical inspection will be based on existing class record or the next higher class where a record exists".
Now, I've been on a number of different automotive enthusiats web forums and I like to take a peek and see what search hits I get for "SCTA" or "Bonneville" or "land speed racing" and surprisingly enough I usually find something regardless of the genre of vehicle. Namely, I like looking at people's builds or I try to answer questions when I can or just get a feel for what the outside world thinks of our little association.
One thing that ALWAYS comes up in nearly every instance is this comment: "Now remember, the SCTA requires that you build your car to meet the safety requirements based on the class record..." and someone usually posts up the class speed (which is obviously high if it's a record) and the original thread creator usually responds with "Aw geez, I need two parachutes, lexan windows, 20 lbs of fire extinguishing agent, 5 lugs, 1" lug nuts, a jungle gym of a roll cage, and a -20 fire suit... I can't afford all that so never mind."
What many people don't know is that we (tech inspectors) will usually limit a car to whatever speed they safely tech to. For example, a cute T roadster with a track nose came through new car inspection this year as a B/FMR. It has a 401 Buick in it and it ran on methanol. The car maybe had a 105" wheelbase, a nicely built cage, and eveything else it needed to pass tech. At the beginning of the inspection I asked the car owner what his class record was and he says "265 mph" and then I ask how fast he's expecting to go and he says "I'll be happy if I go half that fast." We wrapped up the inspection and I issued him a Speed Limit of 175 mph because that's what the car safely tech'd to and AFAIK, that's the tech staff SOP.
My thinking is, why make it a rule that you have to build to the highest level if we don't enforce it? We have a lot of competitors who run for the fun of it and will never get even close to breaking a record but by the rules we require that they build their cars like they're able to go 250+ mph or whatever it may be. I understand the idea that a certain car with a certain sized engine running on a certain type of fuel will potentially have the ability to possibly go as fast or faster than the existing class record but 9 times out of 10 they won't. I guess it's always best to play it safe and be conservative and basically demand that people make their cars as safe as possible but I think a lot of people get discouraged when they see or hear that.
I think people legitimately know how fast they're really probably going to go before they get into this and build a car and show up to tech. A lot of times you can look at a car and easily say within 10-25 mph how fast it'll actually go. This isn't rocket surgery and we've all been doing this long enough that we have a pretty good idea what certain combination can and can't do.
Sorry for the ramble but just thought I throw this out there and see what you guys think.
Thanks!
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Maybe all that's necessary is a clean way to handle such exceptions. Perhaps adding a square mark with a speed category letter so officials know at a glance the speed limitation from either the vehicle or driver's licencing (R, E, D, C, B, A, AA, U). Then it can be by the official rules.
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Good question.
I've been pondering the inverse of that question.I'm going to run in an open class- XXO/BVGCC. Now, I'm building the car to BVGC specs, so I should have no problem.
If I was only building for /BVGCC, what speed would I need to build to? And because I'm new, what happens if you exceed the speed you build to? Example, what happens if you exceed 175? Are you allowed the return record run, if you built for under 175, and have no chute?
I know there is no chance with our car, just curious.
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Just how much are we talking about maybe a 2nd chute and a larger fire bottle? very little difference in the build requirmens than those 2 "big issues"
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We have a lot of competitors who run for the fun of it and will never get even close to breaking a record
I struggle with this concept.
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Nathan --
And how are you enforcing the speed limits? I've heard of this before, and seems plausible for one or two cars, or T.O.'s, but how do you do it if you get a bunch of them? And how, again, do you do it now?
Stan
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Just how much are we talking about maybe a 2nd chute and a larger fire bottle? very little difference in the build requirmens than those 2 "big issues"
I mean having to run a chute at all. Remember, you only need them over 175 mph but if your class record is over 250 mph then you need two of them. How much do two parachutes cost and how often will you use them if you only ever plan on going 160 mph? Also, 10 lb fire bottles are NOT cheap so buying two of them is pricey.
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Nathan --
And how are you enforcing the speed limits? I've heard of this before, and seems plausible for one or two cars, or T.O.'s, but how do you do it if you get a bunch of them? And how, again, do you do it now?
Stan
I hope I'm answering the question I think you're asking Stan... here goes:
Speed limit sticker goes on vehicle where it's easily seen by the starter. Starter sees sticker and calls down to tower letting them know that the next vehicle up has a speed limit of x miles an hour. Tower says roger we copy there is a speed limit of x miles an hour, send 'em. Car runs and tower reports back to starter with speed.
If speed is over their limit they are usually visited by someone like me, a rover, Bill Latin, Kiwi, Kennedy, etc. One talking to is usually enough.
We/I pretty much do the same thing with all my rookies ie I live on the Special Course all day and track nearly every rookie that goes down the course. I had one rookie run 193 on his supposed-to-be-under-150 rookie run. He was done for the rest of the week.
Anyways, the speed limit system seems to work pretty well now.
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Speed limit sticker goes on vehicle where it's easily seen by the starter.
Seems I learn something new here every week.
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That is the blessing of this site. Everytime I think I know it all I just visit here. I am finding this very interesting
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Good question.
I've been pondering the inverse of that question.I'm going to run in an open class- XXO/BVGCC. Now, I'm building the car to BVGC specs, so I should have no problem.
If I was only building for /BVGCC, what speed would I need to build to? And because I'm new, what happens if you exceed the speed you build to? Example, what happens if you exceed 175? Are you allowed the return record run, if you built for under 175, and have no chute?
I know there is no chance with our car, just curious.
Say for example the record is 172 mph(just pulled that # out of a hat!) and you qualify for the record at 178mph! What happens in this improbable situation?
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The timing trailer monitors every run and when we hear the next vehicle is restricted or on a license up grade we consider the entire run from start to turn out as well as the speeds. If the vehicle is 2 or 3 miles over/under that speed and all is done correctly we tell the starter and they will sign off the timing slip. If the run has problems handling, not getting off the course, way to fast the run is rejected and has to be run over. There was a streamliner car at speed week that had to make several runs as new owner/driver was to fast etc.
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Nathan, thanks for your post. I understand what you are saying and appreciate your thoughts.
I look forward to being in your tech line and having you send me off on my Rookie Salt Run.
FYI- at Maxton we use the same tech speed limit sticker process,,, it works great too.
Charles
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How about this one: we own a the record we compete in at 246(+), do we make changes for the record or the higher speeds we are achieving?
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Good thread . . . very interesting . . . Let me see if I understand this by setting up a fictitious example . . . .
Consider a K/ Diesel Streamliner. Current record is Zero, As I understand it, if you are running in an open record class you need to equip the car with safety equipment that is up to the standards required for the next higher class with a record. "Open record classes: Tire requirements shall be determined by the speed in the next larger displacement class in which a record exists." The existing record for the next higher class is 116.537 for J/DS.
Looking at the tire speed limits we see the S rated tires are limited to 115mph, and T rated tires are good up to 120mph. So according to the rules you would need T rated tires (since 116.537 exceeds 115).
But . . . could you enter a K/DS with S rated tires if (after consultation with the tech inspectors) you are allowed to run with a 115mph speed limit?
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Good thread . . . very interesting . . . Let me see if I understand this by setting up a fictitious example . . . .
Consider a K/ Diesel Streamliner. Current record is Zero, As I understand it, if you are running in an open record class you need to equip the car with safety equipment that is up to the standards required for the next higher class with a record. "Open record classes: Tire requirements shall be determined by the speed in the next larger displacement class in which a record exists." The existing record for the next higher class is 116.537 for J/DS.
Looking at the tire speed limits we see the S rated tires are limited to 115mph, and T rated tires are good up to 120mph. So according to the rules you would need T rated tires (since 116.537 exceeds 115).
But . . . could you enter a K/DS with S rated tires if (after consultation with the tech inspectors) you are allowed to run with a 115mph speed limit?
Yup, you've got it. Two years ago I inspected a high horsepower turbo Toyota Celica that could easily do over 200 but the car showed up with unrated drag radials on them. Without any specs from the tire manufacturer, we limited them to under 200 mph. Well I think the guys really took my imposed speed limit to heart because I caught up with them later and they showed me a timing slip of 199 and change over all three miles. Driver said he drove by the GPS and made sure to not go over 200. I got a good laugh out of that one but thanked them for doing as I asked.
Another time I inspected a high horsepower Cummins diesel truck out of Texas. They wanted to go 200 but had street tires so we limited them to under 200. They set the record at 193 and had a best one way pass of 197. Perfect.
You guys that are border line might as well pony up and pay the piper because that next speed break is right around the corner.
But back to my point, why make it a rule if it isn't really a rule at all? Having a rule like that sure makes the SCTA seem very draconian to the normal outside observer but it really isn't that way at all. Some might say having these superficial "barriers to entry" might keep the meek away and separate those who want from those who can and do but I personally like see new cars being built and more fresh blood in our sport.
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Nathan, thanks for your post. I understand what you are saying and appreciate your thoughts.
I look forward to being in your tech line and having you send me off on my Rookie Salt Run.
FYI- at Maxton we use the same tech speed limit sticker process,,, it works great too.
Charles
Thanks Chuck! I look forward to having you join us.
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Charles;
I don't think that you would be considered as a rookie. When I made my first runs I was announced as a rookie pass. Another very famous celebraties wife was running for the first time at Bonneville that year, and they announced her as making a licencing pass. I questioned why she wasn't announced as a rookie, and the answer was that she had run at El Mirage. You need to get a feel for driving on the salt, but I would not call you a rookie. :-)
Steve
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Thanks Steve,
I guess my "first few passes" on the Salt would in fact be called "Licensing Runs" (not Rookie runs) but either way speed limits are imposed for a few passes (as they should be for safety and track familiarization).
Charles
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Good thread . . . very interesting . . . Let me see if I understand this by setting up a fictitious example . . . .
Consider a K/ Diesel Streamliner. Current record is Zero, As I understand it, if you are running in an open record class you need to equip the car with safety equipment that is up to the standards required for the next higher class with a record. "Open record classes: Tire requirements shall be determined by the speed in the next larger displacement class in which a record exists." The existing record for the next higher class is 116.537 for J/DS.
Looking at the tire speed limits we see the S rated tires are limited to 115mph, and T rated tires are good up to 120mph. So according to the rules you would need T rated tires (since 116.537 exceeds 115).
But . . . could you enter a K/DS with S rated tires if (after consultation with the tech inspectors) you are allowed to run with a 115mph speed limit?
Yup, you've got it. Two years ago I inspected a high horsepower turbo Toyota Celica that could easily do over 200 but the car showed up with unrated drag radials on them. Without any specs from the tire manufacturer, we limited them to under 200 mph. Well I think the guys really took my imposed speed limit to heart because I caught up with them later and they showed me a timing slip of 199 and change over all three miles. Driver said he drove by the GPS and made sure to not go over 200. I got a good laugh out of that one but thanked them for doing as I asked.
Another time I inspected a high horsepower Cummins diesel truck out of Texas. They wanted to go 200 but had street tires so we limited them to under 200. They set the record at 193 and had a best one way pass of 197. Perfect.
You guys that are border line might as well pony up and pay the piper because that next speed break is right around the corner.
But back to my point, why make it a rule if it isn't really a rule at all? Having a rule like that sure makes the SCTA seem very draconian to the normal outside observer but it really isn't that way at all. Some might say having these superficial "barriers to entry" might keep the meek away and separate those who want from those who can and do but I personally like see new cars being built and more fresh blood in our sport.
Nathan,
You're a voice of reason among those less gifted! What a concept, using common sense and hard rules to govern a sanctioning body.
Buzz1513B
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Nathan,
If we don't inspect to the written rules the parts of the rule book you are referring to need to be changed. I just checked, there are 51,808 words in the 2011 rule book. Not every word is looked at every year. I agree that the procedures used should match the written text.
I have not done inspections for several years so, if you guys are not following the rule book please submit the changes.
DW
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I prefer to think of it as the rule book not following us. :-D
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You guys just need to tell me when I am doing shit wrong and I WILL be asking a ton of questions!
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You guys just need to tell me when I am doing Subaru wrong and I WILL be asking a ton of questions!
Well, A Subaru is wrong for openers.......................................... : - )
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Nathan, over 175 one shoot, over 300 two shoots. Over 400 drag your feet and pray.
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You guys just need to tell me when I am doing Subaru wrong and I WILL be asking a ton of questions!
Well, A Subaru is wrong for openers.......................................... : - )
I love the swear editing function, you never know what will get substituted! :-D
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I agree with DW, lets try and stay close to what the rule books indicates, it might be OK for once in a while to put a speed restriction on a race car, but let not over do it with too many cars. This year I did the timing on the Special Course for the first 2 days of racing at Speed Week and I had 148 rookies to time, watch and verify their speeds back to the starters and check their turn outs and sometimes how they deployed their chutes. So yes the tower can watch as requested by the starters to monitor a speed (time) for rare occasions, but it should be used as a minimum!! I feel its safer to have the required equipment (chute/fire bottles, etc) for that vehicles record status. Having a required chute on a race car at any speeds over 160mph at El Mirage is very important to prevent the race car from going out the "backdoor" and hitting a person (spectator) or child on a motorcycle!! One hit like that and we are done at EL Mirage!! Bonneville doesn't really have this situation, but lets stay with the rules in the Rule Book, Dave
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I think that any car that does not meet the standard for the class should be entered TO. with a max speed. Then when the starter tells the timer everyone will know how fast the car is legal to go.
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Yah-but . . .
As Avanti has stated, that's a burden on the officials. In the past, TO has kinda been reserved for vehicles that didn't fit any classification, not ones that didn't meet the safety requirements. SW has more than enuf entries already. Don't need the revenue, don't need a greater hassle. The World of Speed has categories already set up for the others.
Stan
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I agree with Stan, lets keep time only to a minimum. Lets keep inspecting per the rule book. Merry Christmas.
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I agree with DW, lets try and stay close to what the rule books indicates, it might be OK for once in a while to put a speed restriction on a race car, but let not over do it with too many cars. This year I did the timing on the Special Course for the first 2 days of racing at Speed Week and I had 148 rookies to time, watch and verify their speeds back to the starters and check their turn outs and sometimes how they deployed their chutes. So yes the tower can watch as requested by the starters to monitor a speed (time) for rare occasions, but it should be used as a minimum!! I feel its safer to have the required equipment (chute/fire bottles, etc) for that vehicles record status. Having a required chute on a race car at any speeds over 160mph at El Mirage is very important to prevent the race car from going out the "backdoor" and hitting a person (spectator) or child on a motorcycle!! One hit like that and we are done at EL Mirage!! Bonneville doesn't really have this situation, but lets stay with the rules in the Rule Book, Dave
Dave, the way I read it I'm not so sure that Dan is saying that we should follow what the rule book says now. I may be wrong (aka probably am wrong) but I think he's saying that if the book doesn't follow what we're actually doing then we should change the book and to me that makes sense. I think it makes sense to do the practical and realistic thing and to force a competitor to build his car, for example, like it's going to go 275 mph when he's really interested in going 140 mph, is not practical, realistic, or pragmatic. To say that we can only do what the book says to do is kind of like sticking our heads in the sand (or salt or silt) and ignoring what's real. We tech inspectors are all humans and we can think on our feet and make sound decision based on knowledge and experience.
If we see that a car is safely built for a certain speed that is below the requirements of the class record, we let them run which I think is the practical, realistic, and right thing to do. This may come to a shock to some, but not everyone running on the salt is out there to "race" or compete for a record. Some people still see Bonneville and land speed racing in general as the amateur's last stand in racing and some people spend a lot of time and money to come out and run just for the fun of it and I really respect that. I don't see a real reason to strong arm people into doing something that they probably don't need to do just because the rule book says to. We're all smarter than that and I must not be the only one who feels this way because we're using the speed limit system now as it is.
Dave, I was on the sending end of things for the rookies and I can honestly say that I made an effort to guide/assist and then follow up with nearly every rookie that went down the special course. I'd say we had an extremely effective and efficient system going with the way we tracked the rookies and in doing so I don't think we created any more hassle or used any more time than normal. What we were doing worked and worked well IMO.
Just my $.02.
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Well said Nathan. The NHRA could learn a lot from you.
I've only been out to race with you guys once (so far) and I thought the whole tech and impound areas were very well run. Keep up the good work.
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Nathan, That is more logic than I have ever seen in one post on any board. I'm going to have to rest for a while to recover.