Landracing Forum
Tech Information => EFI Questions => Topic started by: bharmon77 on December 08, 2010, 04:39:44 PM
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For my Hayabusa powered lakester I am planning -8 fuel lines from the tank through the filters, pump, shut off valve and regulator to a "Y" block that will feed the stock fuel rail with (2) -6 lines into (2) fuel rail adapters. Is this an over kill for the fuel line size? The pump I was planning is an Aeromotive A1000 as well as an A1000 fuel pressure regulator. I have read in this forum that you can under estimate the fuel supply requirements for land speed racing especially at Bonneville. Obviously I can reduce the cost of the fuel system with -6 all the way, but I did not want to have to do it twice. The car will be run with and without a turbocharger.
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I dont see why it would be a problem
I usually run -6 on my busas
The injectors would be a bigger worry as to size needed and the tune itself or controller?
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The turbo Busa guys can chime in on this, but you can build a turbo Busa that will out run -6 fuel lines.
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The turbo Busa guys can chime in on this, but you can build a turbo Busa that will out run -6 fuel lines.
i know quite a few builds in the good amount of power using just -6
yes over kill isnt bad but the output of my 700hp efi aeromotive is just -6
and itll make 500 on a boosted application but dont get me wrong more fuel is always better
if going for 600+ then yes id use -8
but again the injectors will limit your hp also
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the following info I got from another site (evo site) and seems to be about what ive seen from different builds (give or take a bit)
"Here are some guidlines for EFI setups. The numbers don't apply for carb'd cars running fuel pressures of 4-10 psi or so, which require larger lines for the same HP figures.
-6 (3/8") fuel line is good for 500-550 HP or so on the outlet side of the pump, but you want -8 (1/2") for the suction side
-8 (1/2") fuel line is good for around 900-1000 HP on the outlet side of the pump, but you want -10 (5/8") for the suction side
Read more at http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-engine-turbo-drivetrain/178003-tech-info-fuel-line-sizing-fuel-pump-flow.html?ktrack=kcplink "
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I believe that looking at Ricks engine he had added a second set of injectiors to the throttle bodies. Not the first time I have seen that. A little over my head but seems like a good way to get lots of fuel where you need it.
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gen 1 or gen 2?
the gen 2 setup has 2 sets of injectors
the gen1 has 1 set
they do offer drop in injectors in 1000cc and 2000cc for the gen 1 (high imp.)
so getting the injectors big enough isnt truly a problem as long as you know what you want HP wise
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They appeared to have been welded to provide material for the boss. Opposite the original boss. I think I remember the same thing on Andy Flagg's Nissan
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Remember that in a boosted set up you need to reference the regulator to the manifold pressure so that the differential pressure across the injector remains constant. i.e. if you tune for 45 psi fuel pressure and run 30 psi manifold pressure the fuel pressure needs to be 75 psi and you need to check to make sure that your selected fuel pump will put out enough flow at 75 psi to make the hp you are looking to make. I would also suggest that you make the flow "line" look like: Fuel tank to suction filter (filter should be rated at 2-3 times the max flow rate of the pump and should be stainless screen type, 60 to 100 micron with at least -10 or -12 connections) then thru fuel pump to a 10 micron filter then to the injector fuel rail(s) and then to the pressure regulator, with it's return line routed back to the tank. With the regulator at the end of the fuel rail there will always be fuel under pressure at the injector inlet, if you have it before the fuel rail there is always a chance of an air pocket in the fuel rail that will eventually go away but it can cause problems at start up and early running. Also size plumbing over size and the pump and regulator so that they are working in about the middle of their operating range. Cheap insurance.
Rex
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the following info I got from another site (evo site) and seems to be about what ive seen from different builds (give or take a bit)
"Here are some guidlines for EFI setups. The numbers don't apply for carb'd cars running fuel pressures of 4-10 psi or so, which require larger lines for the same HP figures.
-6 (3/8") fuel line is good for 500-550 HP or so on the outlet side of the pump, but you want -8 (1/2") for the suction side
-8 (1/2") fuel line is good for around 900-1000 HP on the outlet side of the pump, but you want -10 (5/8") for the suction side
Read more at http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-engine-turbo-drivetrain/178003-tech-info-fuel-line-sizing-fuel-pump-flow.html?ktrack=kcplink "
I agree with those sizings. It's just that I've seen too many folks "tune around" inadequate fuels lines, just to have it all go south on a run.
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the following info I got from another site (evo site) and seems to be about what ive seen from different builds (give or take a bit)
"Here are some guidlines for EFI setups. The numbers don't apply for carb'd cars running fuel pressures of 4-10 psi or so, which require larger lines for the same HP figures.
-6 (3/8") fuel line is good for 500-550 HP or so on the outlet side of the pump, but you want -8 (1/2") for the suction side
-8 (1/2") fuel line is good for around 900-1000 HP on the outlet side of the pump, but you want -10 (5/8") for the suction side
Read more at http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-engine-turbo-drivetrain/178003-tech-info-fuel-line-sizing-fuel-pump-flow.html?ktrack=kcplink "
I agree with those sizings. It's just that I've seen too many folks "tune around" inadequate fuels lines, just to have it all go south on a run.
oh yes i do see that possibility and have seen where some run 5/16 line on setups not 3/8 and i wouldnt ever run that as the price difference isnt worth the cheep insurance for a middle of the ground build
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They appeared to have been welded to provide material for the boss. Opposite the original boss. I think I remember the same thing on Andy Flagg's Nissan
on boosted application?
ya its common on turbo bikes to run a secondary system
but if you have access to a fair priced ECU the secondary systems arent needed (yes i have a very good priced ECU (standalone) that i will be using)
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The A1k is more pump then you need. The Bosch 044 draws less current, flows more on the top and cost 1/3 of the Aeromotive (and dead to rights reliable). If you consider the 044 make sure you buy it from a reputable dealer as China fakes are out there (*ebay).
If you ever need more HP potential you can gang 2-044 pumps to increase the output to over 1200 hp. 2-044 cost less then (1) A1000.
The A1000 does look prettier however.
~JH
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On our first-gen build, we are running the 034 Motorsports secondary injection system, spraying a set of EV1 injectors down through the plenum. The primary injectors are Honda S2000.
All suction hoses are -8, as are the lines through the filter and to the Y block. At the Y, two -6 lines run to the two fuel rails. -6 runs back out of the rails and to the regulator, and then returns to the tank.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/vettestuhhail/DSCF2354.jpg)
-8 out of tank
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/vettestuhhail/DSCF2339.jpg)
Secondary injectors installation
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/vettestuhhail/DSCF2332.jpg)
Here is a quick MS Paint sketch of how we did things:
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/pietsrock/Hayabusafuel.png)
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we are running the 034 Motorsports
If I am not mistaken the 034MS and 044 is the same pump.
BTW:
There is nothing wrong with the fuel setup you have however you can also come out of the fuel filter to the bottom rail (in), bottom rail (out) to the top rail (in) and then go top rail (out) to a single in regulator and back to the tank. This will eliminate the Y block and the need for a multi input regulator.
Not knocking....just different.
~JH
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we are running the 034 Motorsports
If I am not mistaken the 034MS and 044 is the same pump.
BTW:
There is nothing wrong with the fuel setup you have however you can also come out of the fuel filter to the bottom rail (in), bottom rail (out) to the top rail (in) and then go top rail (out) to a single in regulator and back to the tank. This will eliminate the Y block and the need for a multi input regulator.
Not knocking....just different.
~JH
the 034 motorsports is a fuel injector controller for the secondaries not a pump
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we are running the 034 Motorsports
If I am not mistaken the 034MS and 044 is the same pump.
BTW:
There is nothing wrong with the fuel setup you have however you can also come out of the fuel filter to the bottom rail (in), bottom rail (out) to the top rail (in) and then go top rail (out) to a single in regulator and back to the tank. This will eliminate the Y block and the need for a multi input regulator.
Not knocking....just different.
~JH
The reason I decided to run the y-block and -6 is that the way it is set up, there will always be an adequate flow of fuel to all points, as well as keeping fuel restriction down so that fuel pressure at the injectors will remain more consistent. The primary injectors have 1/4NPT to -6M fittings threaded in to fuel rail adapters, the same way the original poster is going to plumb his system. That is quite a restriction to throw that kind of volume through. The other reason I plumbed each rail individually was to keep up the ability to grow and change as the bike grows without rebuilding the entire fuel system. The pump, seen in the first photo, is the Bosch 044. We had a Walbro 255 on the bike previously, and upgraded to the 044 as the power level is stepping up from 327hp to about 500.
As you plumb, bear in mind that you want to keep your suction side as short as possible, and downhill.
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The reason I decided to run the y-block and -6 is that the way it is set up, there will always be an adequate flow of fuel to all points, as well as keeping fuel restriction down so that fuel pressure at the injectors will remain more consistent. The primary injectors have 1/4NPT to -6M fittings threaded in to fuel rail adapters, the same way the original poster is going to plumb his system. That is quite a restriction to throw that kind of volume through. The other reason I plumbed each rail individually was to keep up the ability to grow and change as the bike grows without rebuilding the entire fuel system. The pump, seen in the first photo, is the Bosch 044. We had a Walbro 255 on the bike previously, and upgraded to the 044 as the power level is stepping up from 327hp to about 500.
I dont have a problem with that, I thought the same thing but was assured that because it is regulated post rails, if the fuel pump has the flow LPH rate and within HP ability there would not be a different pressure between the primary and secondary fuel rails at WOT. This is taking into consideration that billet fuel rails are used over the smallish OEM on the primary.
I am data logging off the primary rail AND the regulator, dynoed over 5
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs475.ash2/74815_1673657837348_1114496579_31867270_779054_n.jpg)
(http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii432/Power_Adder/Conners%20Pics/016.jpg)
The 'out one and in the other' setup is how the 650-700+HP RCC Super Ultra kits are run (and all RCC turbo kits), and my source for turbo R&D including my suggested method. Again, nothing wrong with your method.
~JH
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I would like to thank everyone for the reply, I have shortened the -8 line from the tank to the primary filter (100 micron steel mesh) and continued the -8 to a Bosch 044 pump with -6 out to the fuel shut off, -6 to an Aeromotive A1000 pressure regulator and -6 to a "Y" block with two -6 lines to the fuel rail. This is a single fuel rail set up with 4 stock injectors. Maybe I need a finer filter ahead of the "Y" block?
BHarmon7077
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How is your tank return line run?
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I have not run the lines yet but the return is a -6 from the regulator back to the top of the tank. Am I making a big basic mistake, I thought that the pressure regulator fed the fuel rail but the diagram posted by Dan shows the regulator inlet down stream from the fuel rail working as a back pressure device. I guess that explains why the regulator has two inlets. I am feeling realy stupid about now. HELP!
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I have not run the lines yet but the return is a -6 from the regulator back to the top of the tank. Am I making a big basic mistake, I thought that the pressure regulator fed the fuel rail but the diagram posted by Dan shows the regulator inlet down stream from the fuel rail working as a back pressure device. I guess that explains why the regulator has two inlets. I am feeling realy stupid about now. HELP!
On a flow through system, Everything inbetween the pump and regulator is pressure, before the pump is suction, after the regulator (return line) is low pressure. A Dead Head system, everything after the regulator, including the fuel rails, is also pressure. Return line likewise is low pressure.
I run a flow through on my dry nitrous Busa using -6 lines. On my blown Taurus SHO(well over 500 wHp), I run a modified dead head system. The 2 fuel rails have a "flow between" that equalizes the pressures and negates the fuel pressure pluses. On the SHO, I use -8 lines on the supply side, -6 on the rails, and -6 on the return. I do get pressure creep at idle and off idle. However, through a lot of thought, I figured a way to reduce voltage to the pump during engine vacuum which took care of most of the pressure creep.
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I have not run the lines yet but the return is a -6 from the regulator back to the top of the tank. Am I making a big basic mistake, I thought that the pressure regulator fed the fuel rail but the diagram posted by Dan shows the regulator inlet down stream from the fuel rail working as a back pressure device. I guess that explains why the regulator has two inlets. I am feeling realy stupid about now. HELP!
Dont feel stupid, what you are talking about is a dead head system and they work for many applications. I wouldnt do one on your setup.
Try this:
tank-fuel filter-fuel pump-fuel rail in-fuel rail out-regulator in-regulator out-tank
You wont need a manual shut off.
The busa motor uses a TOS for its inertia shut off, and will shut the fuel pump off if tipped, providing you still use the OEM fuel pump power on the pump. Increase the fuel pump fuse 5 amps if you use the circuit.
If you have disabled the TOS or use other fuel pump power this is another story.
Check to see if the pump should have the filter pre or post pump. I do know these pumps are very sensitive to particulates and I have ran my filter pre pump to filter particles before they enter the pump.
The 044 or A1000 may in fact ask the filter is post.
You will need a fuel pressure gauge, and you are looking for 43 psi.
-What horsepower are you looking for?
Good luck.
~JH
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oh, and plug one of the regulator in ports.....
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use a 20 amp fuse for the fuel pump
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I thought the OEM was 15 amp....but what ever the case, what Fred said.
~JH
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I have not run the lines yet but the return is a -6 from the regulator back to the top of the tank. Am I making a big basic mistake, I thought that the pressure regulator fed the fuel rail but the diagram posted by Dan shows the regulator inlet down stream from the fuel rail working as a back pressure device. I guess that explains why the regulator has two inlets. I am feeling realy stupid about now. HELP!
I try to run the regulator after the rails whenever convenient. If there is junk (old gas, water, fuel pump chunks, etc) in the fuel system, the fuel in the rail has an easy escape other than through my expensive injectors. It also removes the restriction of the regulator from the fuel circuit before the rail, which is nice if your fuel system is operating near it's limits. Your game plan is also a kosher way of getting things done.
I see you are just down the road in Wilmington- I am in Yellow Springs. Drop me a line via Private Message here or email me at pietsrock@yahoo.com and I'll shoot you my number. I would love to check out your project!
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JH, I just assumed that a mechanical fuel shut off valve was what the inspectors wanted to see? It sounds like if I wire the fuel pump into the engine wiring harness that a shut off valve is not needed as long as the TOS is working. I am suprised that a manual valve is not requird on a car? The filter that Dan is using is a 40 micron from Jegs I will use it before the fuel rail and leave the 100 micron ahead of the pump.
BHarmon
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I believe the mechanical shut off is only required when a mechanical pump is used. This is because in the event of a roll the engine can still run or in a non roll over emergency (*fire) even if the engine is shut off the engine can still be turning over and causing the pump to pump fuel.
During the last few inspections I was asked about my fuel shut off and told the inspectors "this is a busa engine that uses the an electrical fuel pump with TOS to shut off the pump in the event of a roll and a master override that shuts off the pump when the battery disconnects are switched off"....
(*I use 2 battery disconnects, one in cab, one on the back. Both disconnects operate independent and done to switch off all electrical items in the event of a fire and is used as a 'master on' so all fans, pumps, compressors and other are all operated by one big switch. It is not a requirement to have two, just personal preference)
"good enough" was the response.
Rules may of changed regarding fuel pump shut offs, but am fairly confident that you will not need a mechanical shut off.
ALSO.....
IF YOU ARE GOING TO USE THE TOS YOU LET ME KNOW AND I WILL SEND YOU INFO ON WHAT YOU NEED TO DO TO PREVENT YOUR ENGINE FROM MISFIRING AT SPEED WHEN THE TOS IS USED!!!!
(*as you may guess I feel very strongly about my previous comment)
~JH
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use a 20 amp fuse for the fuel pump
If you are going to use the Busa harness ......
I'm going to man up and respectfully disagree with Fred. The Busa fuel pump 12v supply is marginal at best for 15a, let alone 20a. Use a 12v relay, then you don't have to worry.
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use a 20 amp fuse for the fuel pump
If you are going to use the Busa harness ......
I'm going to man up and respectfully disagree with Fred. The Busa fuel pump 12v supply is marginal at best for 15a, let alone 20a. Use a 12v relay, then you don't have to worry.
Though I have no knowledge of anyone having an issue with the stock harness and a higher-draw pump, we ran the fuel pump using a relay, fused on a block running most of the aftermarket electronics.
Lots of good information sharing in this thread!