Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: BALS aSALT on November 01, 2010, 08:04:15 PM
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well, here we go. this is number one entry of i'm sure to be many. i pick up the car on saturday morning and then the engine in the evening. have alot of work to do, will post pics as we go. this is going to be a 1972 camaro, 608 in. dry sump mech. fuel injection for a bullet, 4 speed, have either quick change or 12 bolt/2:14 gears. not sure which yet. so there ya go. the kaos has begun. then it really starts on saturday. let the build begin. :-D :-D :-D
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Good luck with the build, and don't take the critism seriously. Some people will give advice that others won't agree with, bear with it and have fun. :cheers:
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Good luck with the build, and don't take the critism seriously. Some people will give advice that others won't agree with, bear with it and have fun. :cheers:
thanks and will do......................or won't :-D :-D :-D. i know how the web is. i usually only take to heart from the people whom i trust and can shake there hand as i look them in the eye. i know this place can "rib" alot. i've got a great sound board in macdonald and pitts. :-D :-D :-D :-D
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So a quick question. Do you already have the 2.14:1 gears for the 12 bolt?
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Lots of info here, MOST good , some not so good. Take it with a grain of.... Salt. :-D
Looking forward to your updates!
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not in my possesion but i have a friend. :-D :-D :-D they seem to be kind of a rare oddity, interesting :-o :-o :-o
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today i ordered a full containment seat from DCW and 120ft. 13/4 x .156 DOM for the cage from my steel supplier. :-D :-D :-D
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today i ordered a full containment seat from DCW and 120ft. 13/4 x .156 DOM for the cage from my steel supplier. :-D :-D :-D
That has a distinct aire of commitment! :cheers: :-D
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Now you've gone and done it! You've given us enough info to criticise you on.
1. The class you selected, As I recall the record is over 250. I would be going after a "softer" record on my first try at Bonneville.
2. 72 Camaro/608= With that body/ engine combo, you'll be making more power than the body will aero.So you should expect to experience wheelspin before you get to 250, if not entire vehicle spin?
3. The rollcage= Only 120ft? Well that will be a good start. I prefer 1.625 (1 5/8) x .134 The smaller diameter bends tighter to give the driver more room inside. Don't be afraid to use extra bracing. And don't be afraid to cut the roof off to build your cage. I know that sounds CRAZY, but GOOD welds all the way around the tube are critical. And if you are not a good welder, hire one. Roll cages,,,I could go on and on,,,well on to number four.
4.Where are the pictures? We need pics so we can drool and cry. A little out of envy,,, or jealousy.
Sounds to be a really cool project/journey. Sounds like you're acquiring some really cool parts(jealous). And as always,, Make it safe, and try to have some fun doing it.
Good luck, RICK
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Good luck on your build and remember : If it was easy everyone would do it " I have a 1971 Camaro and have run 258 mph . The one thing that makes my car diffrent is that I don't run the weight most cars are running. I also Have a 2.47 rear with 28 inch tire.dia.
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Good luck on your build and remember : If it was easy everyone would do it " I have a 1971 Camaro and have run 258 mph . The one thing that makes my car diffrent is that I don't run the weight most cars are running. I also Have a 2.47 rear with 28 inch tire.dia.
why not run the weight? what class are you running? and at that speed in my class you'd have a record if you could back it up.
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Hello with the weight issue I feel I can get up to speed faster, also I hold 2 records A\CFALT @AA\FALT Getting the power to the salt is the issue. With that model car it has a huge grill which needs addressed. Look for Car #630 in Bonneville pictures, I don't have any that I can send at this time.
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This lap top sucks. Hey I forgot to mention that a car similar to yours was at speedweek out of Texas I think Called In the Cut or something like that. It had 632 inch fuel injected engine a real nice car.
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So let me get this straight Lead. No weight so you can get up to speed, but you can't get the power to the track?
Hummmm.........
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So let me get this straight Lead. No weight so you can get up to speed, but you can't get the power to the track?
Hummmm.........
betcha he's one of those asphalt landspeed guys. :-o :-o :-o, but thats ok too. the key word being "SPEED" :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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So let me get this straight Lead. No weight so you can get up to speed, but you can't get the power to the track?
Hummmm.........
betcha he's one of those asphalt landspeed guys. :-o :-o :-o, but thats ok too. the key word being "SPEED" :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
I have seen his car on the salt, #630 red camaro. Hey, 258 in that type of car is pretty darn good. Hot Rod camaro runs about the same speed. :cheers:
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Now you've gone and done it! You've given us enough info to criticise you on.
1. The class you selected, As I recall the record is over 250. I would be going after a "softer" record on my first try at Bonneville.
2. 72 Camaro/608= With that body/ engine combo, you'll be making more power than the body will aero.So you should expect to experience wheelspin before you get to 250, if not entire vehicle spin?
3. The rollcage= Only 120ft? Well that will be a good start. I prefer 1.625 (1 5/8) x .134 The smaller diameter bends tighter to give the driver more room inside. Don't be afraid to use extra bracing. And don't be afraid to cut the roof off to build your cage. I know that sounds CRAZY, but GOOD welds all the way around the tube are critical. And if you are not a good welder, hire one. Roll cages,,,I could go on and on,,,well on to number four.
4.Where are the pictures? We need pics so we can drool and cry. A little out of envy,,, or jealousy.
Sounds to be a really cool project/journey. Sounds like you're acquiring some really cool parts(jealous). And as always,, Make it safe, and try to have some fun doing it.
Good luck, RICK
1. the first year is licensing and shakedown, break personal record of 200plus. next year go AA/CBGC. got too good a deal to pass up, and it's enough to do 200 and get me in trouble. actually that bullet is good for 280 in a 98 firebird. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
2. we'll just keep adding weight till it works.
3. 120 ft. to start. i'll be down low in the car so i have plenty of room for not quite so tight bends. i'm a cut holes in the floor and drop the cage down to weld kinda guy. and best friend is certified welder.
4. as soon as i get the car.(saturday, nov.6) morning for car-afternoon for bullet. as soon as my new pretty babies arrive i'll post pics.
5. thank you for the encouragement.
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Troy, don't forget those guys from New York? that ran 268 mph in a 1968!!! Firebird only a few years ago. Can't recall the name now. Just a blown big block chevy like any other. :wink:
And yes, 200 anything is damned fast...... :-) It's about time some of the early gen cars started running faster, I always said they could........ 8-)
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What I mean is why add one thousand , when 500 will do. Thanks
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Troy, don't forget those guys from New York? that ran 268 mph in a 1968!!! Firebird only a few years ago. Can't recall the name now. Just a blown big block chevy like any other. :wink:
And yes, 200 anything is damned fast...... :-) It's about time some of the early gen cars started running faster, I always said they could........ 8-)
yeah well. you guys are runnin' really f$%^&*g good too. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :-D :-D :-D
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Troy, don't forget those guys from New York? that ran 268 mph in a 1968!!! Firebird only a few years ago. Can't recall the name now. Just a blown big block chevy like any other. :wink:
And yes, 200 anything is damned fast...... :-) It's about time some of the early gen cars started running faster, I always said they could........ 8-)
wow, no I didn't know that! That's flipping haullin in a 68, well haullin period! :cheers:
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. . . . . have either quick change or 12 bolt/2:14 gears. not sure which yet. . . .
This sounds like a really great project. I look forward to your posts as you do this build.
One little wrinkle in the rules that might impact your build. The rules for Gas Coupe class requires either an engine swap, a quick change rear or a non-stock blower. Any one of those three is what takes the car out of the Production class and into the gas coupe class. You will be OK in the Blown Gas Coupe class with the non-stock blower but in the Unblown class you will need the quick change unless you can show that the 608 is an engine swap. The 72 Camaro was available with a big block 396 from the factory. I don't have the rule book with me today to look up the exact page that has the definition of an engine swap. You should look that up rather than relying on my less-than-perfect memory. I might be wrong (it happens) but I recall that the 608 is an oversize 396/427. Maybe someone more familiar with the 608 can add something to this point.
Assuming I am right on this, (and you decide not to run a quick change rear,) you could consider AA/CGALT or maybe AA/CPRO
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. . . . . have either quick change or 12 bolt/2:14 gears. not sure which yet. . . .
This sounds like a really great project. I look forward to your posts as you do this build.
One little wrinkle in the rules that might impact your build. The rules for Gas Coupe class requires either an engine swap, a quick change rear or a non-stock blower. Any one of those three is what takes the car out of the Production class and into the gas coupe class. You will be OK in the Blown Gas Coupe class with the non-stock blower but in the Unblown class you will need the quick change unless you can show that the 608 is an engine swap. The 72 Camaro was available with a big block 396 from the factory. I don't have the rule book with me today to look up the exact page that has the definition of an engine swap. You should look that up rather than relying on my less-than-perfect memory. I might be wrong (it happens) but I recall that the 608 is an oversize 396/427. Maybe someone more familiar with the 608 can add something to this point.
Assuming I am right on this, (and you decide not to run a quick change rear,) you could consider AA/CGALT or maybe AA/CPRO
i think i'll be ok with the 608 because it is a "tall" block, not a dealer or factory installed option. but you do bring up a very good point and on monday morning i will be calling lee kennedy to make sure. thank you for the insight.
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Kinda funny how some of you guys are bagging on Leadfoot. Considering he holds a few records that are pretty impressive I think he has a pretty good handle on what to do with his car. Maybe you should pay attention to what he is doing right instead of what you THINK he is doing wrong.......
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i think i'll be ok with the 608 because it is a "tall" block, not a dealer or factory installed option. but you do bring up a very good point and on monday morning i will be calling lee kennedy to make sure. thank you for the insight.
Make sure you get it in writing, otherwise its just an opinion and wont hold water if you get protested. Just ask some of the guys that have lost records recently. Tony
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i think i'll be ok with the 608 because it is a "tall" block, not a dealer or factory installed option. but you do bring up a very good point and on monday morning i will be calling lee kennedy to make sure. thank you for the insight.
Make sure you get it in writing, otherwise its just an opinion and wont hold water if you get protested. Just ask some of the guys that have lost records recently. Tony
just spoke to lee kennedy and he told me to shoot him an email with my build intentions and class desires. there is a committee meeting on saturday so i'll something in writing from the head honchos telling what i can or can't do. i'm keeping my fingers crossed cause i've already spent a ton of money. :-o :-o :-o :-o :roll: :roll:
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Kinda funny how some of you guys are bagging on Leadfoot. Considering he holds a few records that are pretty impressive I think he has a pretty good handle on what to do with his car. Maybe you should pay attention to what he is doing right instead of what you THINK he is doing wrong.......
wait a minute...............who's capping on who? i don't think i've shown anyone any disrespect. i never said leadfoot was doing anything with his car. why are you raining on my build? :-P :-P :-P can't we all just get along???????????????????????????????????????????????????????peace. :-D :-D :-D :-D
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Tall block should not qualify for an eng. swap---I would be VERY supprised other wise
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Tall block or short, they are the same 'engine design family'. I too, would be surprised if it counts as an engine swap.
Good luck, though!
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I agree.................... 8-)
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Why not consider Production or Altered glass ? then add a quickchange for Gas Coupe class?
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Why not consider Production or Altered glass ? then add a quickchange for Gas Coupe class?
trying to get into CBGC eventually, but since i got such a good deal on this bullet, i figure i'll cut my teeth in CGC, then change over.
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Tall block is not a defined engine swap.
DW
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Tall block is not a defined engine swap.
DW
DAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! well i am at the mercy of the committee board. i should get my letter from them on Mon. or tues. i keep reading that rule book and it's still a pain to understand.
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I know about building your own car and all, but did you see Dick's Firebird for sale here? I think it sounds like a pretty good deal. Save some work building your own completly.
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You might want to think about a quick change (extremeliner or similar). That would make you legal and there sort of nice to work with. I was very impressed with ours. Looking forward to seeing those build pics! That car has always been one of my favorites.
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You might want to think about a quick change (extremeliner or similar). That would make you legal and there sort of nice to work with. I was very impressed with ours. Looking forward to seeing those build pics! That car has always been one of my favorites.
Rob, does your QC use 35 spline axles ? what ring and pinion? spool or locker ?
Thanks
Charles
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You might want to think about a quick change (extremeliner or similar). That would make you legal and there sort of nice to work with. I was very impressed with ours. Looking forward to seeing those build pics! That car has always been one of my favorites.
Rob, does your QC use 35 spline axles ? what ring and pinion? spool or locker ?
Thanks
Charles
The lakester we built (rebuilt) for for Dennis L. used the 3.08 r&p but out liner will use the 2.00 r&p and both have 35 spline axles. The 3.08 will get down to 1.84 ratio and a spool is readily available for it. Not so for the 2.00. I don't plan on using a spool in the liner. Got everything from Joe Timney.
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here's a picture of the bullet.
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here's one of the camaro.
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here's a picture of the bullet.
I was in a Ferrari store at Wynn's casino in Las Vegas wednesday and they had a formula I 10 cyl engine on display,
[3 litre 800 hp]with nice carbon fiber inlets similar to those gold ones, as the throttle linkage was there I couldn't resist moving it and those inlets moved up and down about 2'' :-o
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mine don't move up and down, but the engine does move forward when the butterflies are twisted open. odd :? :? :? :-D :-D :-D
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Tall block is not a defined engine swap.
DW
ok, how about since this bullet is considered a pontiac and pntiac headed engines didn't come in a camaro. now do i have an engine swap? :? :? :?
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It's a Chevy block, or a Pontiac? If it's a Pontiac block, as verified by casting numbers, you should be ok, depending on if it's newer or older. The old Pontiac blocks were different than Chevies.The fact that you said it was a "tall Block", indictes it's a Chevy. Pontiac didn't make a tall block, did they?
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i really don't know.
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Why not consider Production or Altered glass ? then add a quickchange for Gas Coupe class?
Why not take Leadfoot's advice? Looking at his car and records, he could be a valuable source of info for you? We should all be so lucky!
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Might get a little dicey. I think GM went to a policy and in their advertising, of using "Corporate engines" putting chev engines in Oldsmobiles, Pontiacs etc. Don't know about big blocks, might give some wiggle room. My heads say Pontiac on them, not just the valve covers.
Don't have a rule book handy, but I think there was something about intake bolt patterns being the same. These aren't the same as Chevy so can't be a chevy????. Don't remember what class they were talking about.
If you have an Oldsmobile with valve covers that say Oldsmobile but the block casting numbers say it's a chevy, does that mean you have a chevy???
Just my $.05 worth.
Ron
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Might get a little dicey. I think GM went to a policy and in their advertising, of using "Corporate engines" putting chev engines in Oldsmobiles, Pontiacs etc. Don't know about big blocks, might give some wiggle room. My heads say Pontiac on them, not just the valve covers.
Don't have a rule book handy, but I think there was something about intake bolt patterns being the same. These aren't the same as Chevy so can't be a chevy????. Don't remember what class they were talking about.
If you have an Oldsmobile with valve covers that say Oldsmobile but the block casting numbers say it's a chevy, does that mean you have a chevy???
Just my $.05 worth.
Ron
I may be wrong, but I don't think it matters, because in the scenario you describe, everthing would be part of the same 'engine design family'. If it truly is the old Pontiac block, it's a different family. It appears to me to be a BBC.
I'm far from an expert, though.
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Once again the answer is in the rule book. If the head bolt pattern and bellhousing bolt pattern is the same as any engine that was available in the car as sold new, it's not an engine swap. So any small block of Rat motor is legal in a '72 Camaro. Deck height or name on the heads has not been an issue. The rule 4.N would seem to contradict that as deck height and cam location are part of the requirements to be the same engine family. "All OEM parts shall fit the block without modification" Can't use a stock timing chain with a raised cam. Can't use stock rods or pistons with a raised deck. Unless truck stuff fits. When I started this I thought I knew the answer. Head and bellhousing bolt pattern. Now I'm not so sure. Raised decks are clearly called out as being an example of an engine swap.
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Nope
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2010 rule book. Page 40. 4.N second paragraph. An engine family is defined as engines which are made with the same basic material, have the same bore centers, crankshaft supports, DECK HEIGHT, CAM LOCATION, head mounting, bell-housing and engine mount patterns, etc. All OEM parts shall fit the block without modification...This would seem to disallow raised cam or large bearing cam blocks as in some large inch BBC clones. Engine that always have been accepted to my knowledge.
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2010 rule book. Page 40. 4.N second paragraph. An engine family is defined as engines which are made with the same basic material, have the same bore centers, crankshaft supports, DECK HEIGHT, CAM LOCATION, head mounting, bell-housing and engine mount patterns, etc. All OEM parts shall fit the block without modification...This would seem to disallow raised cam or large bearing cam blocks as in some large inch BBC clones. Engine that always have been accepted to my knowledge.
this is why i say it should count as an engine swap.
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Might get a little dicey. I think GM went to a policy and in their advertising, of using "Corporate engines" putting chev engines in Oldsmobiles, Pontiacs etc. Don't know about big blocks, might give some wiggle room. My heads say Pontiac on them, not just the valve covers.
Don't have a rule book handy, but I think there was something about intake bolt patterns being the same. These aren't the same as Chevy so can't be a chevy????. Don't remember what class they were talking about.
If you have an Oldsmobile with valve covers that say Oldsmobile but the block casting numbers say it's a chevy, does that mean you have a chevy???
Just my $.05 worth.
Ron
my heads say pontiac also.
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What it says on your heads makes no difference. As far as I know only the bolt pattern and the fact that they are still rocker arm heads counts. They could say Ford on them and still be legal.
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well in that case...............that should work in my favor. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Okay,,,I've had my chain jerked before,,, but not like this. You mean to tell me you "don't know" what that thing in your floor is? As expensive as that thing should be, I would know exactly what it was, who assembled it, what lift, duration, ratio, rod length,etc., etc.
And I'm no expert (i once mistook a 1916 Buick engine for a 1919 Haynes-Apperson), but come on,,,,,,that thing is big block Chevy. With that odd-ball intake on there, I can't tell who's heads those are, and with that motor plate, I can't tell who's block that is. But if its a GMPP Bow-tie, Merlin, World, Dart, EPW, Wal-Mart, etc. It should not matter. It's a big block Chevy or a replacement of. That's it's intent.
The intent of the 'motor swap' rule, is for you to install a Packard, Studebaker, or Hudson engine in your Camaro.
So next time you post, I'd like to see a complete spec sheet, including wrist pin length, wall thickness,and weight(these are the things I would know if that were my engine)
And what about number 4= lots of pictures.
Waiting for the pics, RICK
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Yeah. What Rick said . . . plus consider this:
Once you get this issue of whether you engine is or is not a swap, then you have some options picking a class.
What are you after, record wise? If a record is your goal (regardless of class) it makes sense to go after the lowest existing record that your car can be made to fit. (Even then you might not set a record but it is the easiest path to a record)
I just looked at the current records list. http://www.scta-bni.org/Bonneville/BNIrecs_cat_c.htm. The slowest class for unblown AA engines is the AA/CPRO record of 237.373. The next slowest record is AA/CGALT at 246.011. The gas coupe record for AA/CGC is 252.106.
In the unblown classes, assuming you are not running a quick change rear, wouldn't you prefer to go after the lowest record? That means build for the Production class. And to do that you need an engine that is NOT a swap.
On the other hand if your engine turns out to be considered a swap then look at AA/CGALT. To move to altered all you have to do to either a Production body or Gas Coupe body is cover up the headlights. You DO NOT need to swap engines (although you may) to be legal in Altered.
Still with me? . . . .OK – So if your engine is considered a swap or if you don't want to run Production for some reason (like adding non-production spoiler to the back of car) then run in the Altered class.
Running a Blower - If you add a blower then you are out of the Production classes (72 Camaro’s did not come with a blown engine so the blower would have to be (by definition) a non-stock blower). And a non-stock blower will qualify you as a CGC without the need to have either a quick change or an engine swap. The current record for AA/CBGC is 179.490
Lots of options . . . .
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According to Little Liner, sound like you are in pretty good shape as far as classes go. Lot's of options! Options are good!
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Okay,,,I've had my chain jerked before,,, but not like this. You mean to tell me you "don't know" what that thing in your floor is? As expensive as that thing should be, I would know exactly what it was, who assembled it, what lift, duration, ratio, rod length,etc., etc.
And I'm no expert (i once mistook a 1916 Buick engine for a 1919 Haynes-Apperson), but come on,,,,,,that thing is big block Chevy. With that odd-ball intake on there, I can't tell who's heads those are, and with that motor plate, I can't tell who's block that is. But if its a GMPP Bow-tie, Merlin, World, Dart, EPW, Wal-Mart, etc. It should not matter. It's a big block Chevy or a replacement of. That's it's intent.
The intent of the 'motor swap' rule, is for you to install a Packard, Studebaker, or Hudson engine in your Camaro.
So next time you post, I'd like to see a complete spec sheet, including wrist pin length, wall thickness,and weight(these are the things I would know if that were my engine)
And what about number 4= lots of pictures.
Waiting for the pics, RICK
refer back to reply 48 and 50. and i don't know who's jerking your chain but it sure as hell aint me. i know exactly whats on the floor of my shop. i am just not sure if it is a swap or not. and if not, then in my car what class? thats all. but mr. kennedy is fixing me up so there. :-P :-P :-P
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Yeah. What Rick said . . . plus consider this:
Once you get this issue of whether you engine is or is not a swap, then you have some options picking a class.
What are you after, record wise? If a record is your goal (regardless of class) it makes sense to go after the lowest existing record that your car can be made to fit. (Even then you might not set a record but it is the easiest path to a record)
I just looked at the current records list. http://www.scta-bni.org/Bonneville/BNIrecs_cat_c.htm. The slowest class for unblown AA engines is the AA/CPRO record of 237.373. The next slowest record is AA/CGALT at 246.011. The gas coupe record for AA/CGC is 252.106.
In the unblown classes, assuming you are not running a quick change rear, wouldn't you prefer to go after the lowest record? That means build for the Production class. And to do that you need an engine that is NOT a swap.
On the other hand if your engine turns out to be considered a swap then look at AA/CGALT. To move to altered all you have to do to either a Production body or Gas Coupe body is cover up the headlights. You DO NOT need to swap engines (although you may) to be legal in Altered.
Still with me? . . . .OK – So if your engine is considered a swap or if you don't want to run Production for some reason (like adding non-production spoiler to the back of car) then run in the Altered class.
Running a Blower - If you add a blower then you are out of the Production classes (72 Camaro’s did not come with a blown engine so the blower would have to be (by definition) a non-stock blower). And a non-stock blower will qualify you as a CGC without the need to have either a quick change or an engine swap. The current record for AA/CBGC is 179.490
Lots of options . . . .
ok, which class DOES NOT REQUIRE that all the factory stuff works. i don't want to deal with lights, horn, turn signals, stop lights. hi/lo. i just want a race car. next, i am going CBGC, just not yet. got such a good deal on bullet, figure cut teeth in unblown gas. then switch when its time.
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today i got a roof flap unit to install on the camaro, i also got my seat from ultra shield. one of those full containment jobbies. what a nice seat. custom to me. fits like a glove. got it set up in front of the TV so i can start getting some seat time :? :? :? :-D
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What are yiou doing in front of the TV? Get out to the shop. :evil: :evil: :evil: :-D
Pete
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for after work. till it gets mounted in the car. :-D :-D
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in case of spin.
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ok, which class DOES NOT REQUIRE that all the factory stuff works. i don't want to deal with lights, horn, turn signals, stop lights. hi/lo. i just want a race car. . . .
None of the class rules require that the "factory stuff works." Example would be headlights - In Pro and in Gas Coupe the lights must be there but need not work. You don't even need to have them wired.
Go back to the rule book (SCTA 2010) and look at these pages -
page 62, 1st sentence
page 67, 2nd paragraph
page 73, 2nd paragraph
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ok, which class DOES NOT REQUIRE that all the factory stuff works. i don't want to deal with lights, horn, turn signals, stop lights. hi/lo. i just want a race car. . . .
None of the class rules require that the "factory stuff works." Example would be headlights - In Pro and in Gas Coupe the lights must be there but need not work. You don't even need to have them wired.
Go back to the rule book (SCTA 2010) and look at these pages -
page 62, 1st sentence
page 67, 2nd paragraph
page 73, 2nd paragraph
see, now when i read the rules and upon reading those paragraphs, i was understanding them as those items had to be there and work :-o :-o :-o :? :? :? but if they only have present to be legal................. well then mister, we're \in business. :-D :-D :-D :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: thanks little for clarifying that for me.it's amazing, i've read that book 100 times, but it takes just alittle expanation for me to understand it. thanks again.
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So have you had chance to look inside that motor ?
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So have you had chance to look inside that motor ?
just under the valve covers. can see the lifter bores have been bushed. all jesel , rockers, lifters, timimg belt.got a file with engine , except i left it with the seller to make copies. the guy i bought the bullet from is well respected, have known him for 30 years. and i trust what he tells me. he has never steered me wrong. so when he said he had a bullet for sale, i told him i was interested, and i got a better deal than anyone else would have got. i would have bought it sight unseen if i had to. but only from this guy. :-D he's advising me on my car and i trust what he says. he does hold a blue hat in a 308 mph doorslammer. been doin' it 50 plus years. so i am pretty sure he knows what he's doing. :-) :-) :-)
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ok , ready for this. how about running in AA/CPRO if scta won't let me run in CGC?
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I'm guessing your consultant is Dave Macdonald.
Good choice, please give Dave my best wishes. I don't get a chance to see all my friends at the salt. There has to be something wrong with that!
DW
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bingo, will do dw.
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Dave is great, and deffinately won't steer you wrong! He knows what he's doing! :cheers: Tell him that the LeFevers say hi as well. :cheers:
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ok , ready for this. how about running in AA/CPRO if scta won't let me run in CGC?
If your engine is a big block chevy (and not a swap) then you can run CPRO. Remember to include a horn, radiator and stock gas tank from a 72 Camaro (horn and gas tank do not have to be used, just mounted in original location.)
Something I have been wondering is . . if you can (within the rules) change year of production by swapping out bumpers, grills, and lights that differed from year to year. Fact is that apparently Chevy dropped the big block from the Camaro in the 73 thru 81 model. So a big block chevy IS an engine swap in a 73 through 81. I am guessing here . . . so maybe someone that really knows something about this can chime in.
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ok , ready for this. how about running in AA/CPRO if scta won't let me run in CGC?
If your engine is a big block chevy (and not a swap) then you can run CPRO. Remember to include a horn, radiator and stock gas tank from a 72 Camaro (horn and gas tank do not have to be used, just mounted in original location.)
Something I have been wondering is . . if you can (within the rules) change year of production by swapping out bumpers, grills, and lights that differed from year to year. Fact is that apparently Chevy dropped the big block from the Camaro in the 73 thru 81 model. So a big block chevy IS an engine swap in a 73 through 81. I am guessing here . . . so maybe someone that really knows something about this can chime in.
The cylinder heads are likely to be an issue here. Per the rules in production the port placement & valve arrangement must be in the standard location. The Pontiac heads were rolled over and the intake ports were spread.
If it were me I'd put a quick change in it to run classic gas couple or put a 'glass front end on it and run classic gas altered.
Also wondering are you going to be coverting the induction system? I seem to recall this engine being EFI.
Not trying to rain on your parade, this engine package has been around for over 25 years, you are not the first to look at the application.
And as we speak a more definitive wording on engine types for production, gas coupe, etc are being looked at for 2011.
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Monzas caused a problem with swapping body parts around. Started with Jack Dolan and his 'car of many classes', but that is a lesson in history for those that wish to be long haulers.
Bottom line, if a body part is for a GM 'F' body, across the year range, then it is OK for use. Body parts for 'G' bodies, etc all fall into the same rules. This is all GM of course, Ford and others must meet the same criteria. It is up to the entant to prove that the stuff they use is legal stuff.
DW
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ok , ready for this. how about running in AA/CPRO if scta won't let me run in CGC?
If your engine is a big block chevy (and not a swap) then you can run CPRO. Remember to include a horn, radiator and stock gas tank from a 72 Camaro (horn and gas tank do not have to be used, just mounted in original location.)
Something I have been wondering is . . if you can (within the rules) change year of production by swapping out bumpers, grills, and lights that differed from year to year. Fact is that apparently Chevy dropped the big block from the Camaro in the 73 thru 81 model. So a big block chevy IS an engine swap in a 73 through 81. I am guessing here . . . so maybe someone that really knows something about this can chime in.
i am converting to mechanical. either hilborn or enderle will do it and the set up. so as it is a complete running package. they seem very interested because they are used to going from mech. to electric, not the way i'm going, electric to mech. copy on the mounted and not working. i'm still waiting to hear from lee kennedy on a definative answer on class. i think i am starting to understand the rule book alittle better..................with some help from you guys. thanks :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
The cylinder heads are likely to be an issue here. Per the rules in production the port placement & valve arrangement must be in the standard location. The Pontiac heads were rolled over and the intake ports were spread.
If it were me I'd put a quick change in it to run classic gas couple or put a 'glass front end on it and run classic gas altered.
Also wondering are you going to be coverting the induction system? I seem to recall this engine being EFI.
Not trying to rain on your parade, this engine package has been around for over 25 years, you are not the first to look at the application.
And as we speak a more definitive wording on engine types for production, gas coupe, etc are being looked at for 2011.
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I certainly would think Dave would be a great asset in your corner. What a awesome speed in a door slammer. 308 MPH !!
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I certainly would think Dave would be a great asset in your corner. What a awesome speed in a door slammer. 308 MPH !!
yeah..............................dave is the man. :-D :-D :-D. he's not done either, he'll raise that bar just alittle more before he calls it quits.
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So, Is it an engine swap or not?
What class are you planning on running?
Ready to tell us the engine details?
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So, Is it an engine swap or not?
What class are you planning on running?
Ready to tell us the engine details?
hey flattie,
i wish i could tell ya but as of today, i am still waiting for that email from lee kennedy. he told me i would have an answer in writing that following monday. i think it's been about 5 weeks now and i'm still waiting. but that's ok. i'll just make the camaro a 73 and my engine will be considered a swap on account of that in 1973 a bigblock was not available in a camaro. so it should count as a CGC. if not, i'll set the motor back and seal up headlites and grill and go for CGALT. then eventually CBGC or CBGALT
what kind of details do you want from DAS BULLET?
and got new firesuit this week. an SFI-20 so i'll be ready. also got some time in on the ole girl today, got her mostly stripped down for cage installand other fab work.
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hey flattie,
what kind of details do you want from DAS BULLET?
[/quote]
Not much, Just ALL of the details! :-D
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My opinion, the only way a BBC will be considered an Eng swap is if you put SPREAD PORT heads on it then you should be an Eng swap. Siamiesse ports are not going to be considered and Eng swap. Put the QC in it and you are a GC instead of Prod.
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sparky, refer back to reply 48. as mr.fox put it.raised deck-engine swap................no? working on a set of 2:13 gears for my 12 bolt, if that falls thru, which it probably won't. then i'd put the QC.
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pushing strings and herding cats ---
my opinion-- your time is better spent elsewhere
obviously your milage varies
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pushing strings and herding cats ---
my opinion-- your time is better spent elsewhere
obviously your milage varies
not sure i understand :? :? :?
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TALL deck is not going to be an eng swap---the rules TELL you what you have to have! Eng swap, quick change, or a non stock supercharger.
the Preveiouly unwritten "understanding is" it is NOT an eng swap if it used a head, manifold combination that was available on other production engs available in that body production series.( A BBC in a 55 Chev is an eng swap a tall deck BBC in a CAMARO ois NOT.
That has now been addressed a wee small bit in GT --with the new rules release.
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TALL deck is not going to be an eng swap---the rules TELL you what you have to have! Eng swap, quick change, or a non stock supercharger.
the Preveiouly unwritten "understanding is" it is NOT an eng swap if it used a head, manifold combination that was available on other production engs available in that body production series.( A BBC in a 55 Chev is an eng swap a tall deck BBC in a CAMARO ois NOT.
That has now been addressed a wee small bit in GT --with the new rules release.
well i am still waiting on a reply from "the committee" i like how rich fox in reply #48 puts it. but if that still won't fly, well then i guess i'll just have to install my QC instead of the 2:13 12 bolt.either way i'll be running CGC.......................................................for now.
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Think about, it there are engines that the deck height canges with the displacment that are all stock Olds and Pontiac come to mind
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happy day, :-D :-D :-D. ordered my bolt in front clip for the camaro. a scotts hot rods piece. so basically it's a modern suspension front end. once i get that, then the build will begin. the car is gutted ready for the fab stage of the project. so i am figuring that the week between x-mas and new years , the real work will begin. :-D :-D :-D
if you all can't wait for my pics, go to www.scottshotrods.com and look for camaro front clips and you'll see the subframe that i'm using. ordered without swaybar, motormounts, or brakes with a manual rack. :-D :-D :-D
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Whats up Doc??????
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Whats up Doc??????
i'll have news and photos soon. right now waiting for custom front subframe and spending lots of money buying parts. 8-)
and for the record...............the build is NOW a 1973 camaro in AA/CGC.........................................and i have a letter from SCTA stating that my combination is good to go.............................................................1973 AA/CGC camaro. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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Soo, BALS, are you going to share the combo that put you in CGC????? inquiring minds need to know :-D
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i'll have news and photos soon. right now waiting for custom front subframe and spending lots of money buying parts. 8-)
and for the record...............the build is NOW a 1973 camaro in AA/CGC.........................................and i have a letter from SCTA stating that my combination is good to go.............................................................1973 AA/CGC camaro. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
Probably our most common off-season pastime :-D
Good luck with the project
See ya on the salt 8-)
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Soo, BALS, are you going to share the combo that put you in CGC????? inquiring minds need to know :-D
ok ok i'll tell ya. the project is now a 1973 camaro. 608 tall deck chevy with those famed pontiac heads, and kinsler mechanical fuel injection, dry sump. "das bullet" engine set back 2 in. 4 speed. winters quick change.
will be installing a scotts hotrods custom subframe on saturday, so should have some good pics this weekend. have been waiting for scotts to build the front clip, thats why the lull in the postings. but now that subframe arrives tomorrow. i'll be throwing 260 ft. of tubing at the car. got 120 ft 13/4 x .156 DOM, 40 ft. of 11/2 x .125 DOM, 40 ft. 11/4 x .120 DOM, 40 ft.of 1 x.120 DOM , and 20 ft. of 2 x 4 x .188 EW. that should be a good start to my cage. so now that we have a front end, the real work begins. :-D :-D :-D :-D
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Should be an awsome ride have fun.
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so today we made good progress. front subframe in and frame connectors fabbed and tacked in.
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here is a pic of frame connectors.
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and from under the car.
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one more for the hell of it.
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oh, ok one more.
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now i need someone to show me how to post pics in a manner so i can include multiple pics with each post rather than one pic per post. :roll:
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when you click on additional options you then click on browse to open ever how many you want
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yeah but then a window comes up and says my pics are too big :? :? :? :?, i've never had that problem before................always been told too small. :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-, but screw that for now, what about the build? looking for some approval here. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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the limit is 500k. your single has almost 400k, you have to run it through some resize program or change the camera to put up more than one.
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Very nice.
I think you might have moved yourself into altered with the subframe. Check rule 5.D.3. I hope I'm wrong (one of those gray area interpretations of the rule)
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Look at the up side. The AA/CGALT record is 6 mph less than the AA/CGC record. 246mph to 252mph.
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Look at the up side. The AA/CGALT record is 6 mph less than the AA/CGC record. 246mph to 252mph.
don't tell anyone , but.................................i'm shooting for both :-D :-D :-D
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Even if it doesn't sat it, watch that "Spirit of the rule" thing. It'll get you every time.
Doug :evil: :cheers: :cheers:
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Very nice.
I think you might have moved yourself into altered with the subframe. Check rule 5.D.3. I hope I'm wrong (one of those gray area interpretations of the rule)
thanks brian, i'll double check, then call lee and see what he says. THANKS
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Look at the up side. The AA/CGALT record is 6 mph less than the AA/CGC record. 246mph to 252mph.
don't tell anyone , but.................................i'm shooting for both :-D :-D :-D
You could put a blower on it and run AABGALT and it's under 250 same with A. :cheers:
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Look at the up side. The AA/CGALT record is 6 mph less than the AA/CGC record. 246mph to 252mph.
don't tell anyone , but.................................i'm shooting for both :-D :-D :-D
You could put a blower on it and run AABGALT and it's under 250 same with A. :cheers:
well i'm glad i have options.
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man, i can't believe this. :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o it seems that thundersalt was right. :? :? :? my new subframe and frame connectors bumped me out of classic gas coupe and right into classic gas altered. one of these days i'll figure out what class i'm building for. well i guess i should have read the rules 101 times and not just 100. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: ok so now i'm back to building a 1972 camaro to run AA/CGALT. instead of mechanical fuel injection, i'll run EFI. everything else will be the same except for engine set back. i'm going alittle more than the 2% in CGC.
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Oh well... Altered is better anyhow :-D
We set the engiine back as far as we could in the 222 camaro and still get the heads off without going under the cowl.
JL222
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Oh well... Altered is better anyhow :-D
We set the engiine back as far as we could in the 222 camaro and still get the heads off without going under the cowl.
JL222
yeah..............it sounds racier. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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One more hick-up - non stock EFI moves you into AA/GALT (out of AA/CGALT). The record there is 274 and change. Keep reading!
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One more hick-up - non stock EFI moves you into AA/GALT (out of AA/CGALT). The record there is 274 and change. Keep reading!
you're killing me, or i should say....the rule is killing me.........ok back to mechanical.
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ok got the final word from mr.sykes jr. my build is good to go in CGC. i have a letter from him that says so. so there. and since i have continued with the build, here is what i have so far. subframe and connectors, main hoop, hallow bar, forward a pillar bars, sill bars, and what we are calling tunnel bars.
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here is a close up of the fit and trim.
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one more
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here is this weeks progress. i am really liking how it is coming. :-D :-D :-D
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funny car cage is almost done.
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still have alot more bars to install.
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custom :-D :-D :-D
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well i must be doing something right...........................i'm not getting any criticism. no news is good news. :-D :-D :-D
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Amazing how many sticks of tubing disappear when building a cage huh!?
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Amazing how many sticks of tubing disappear when building a cage huh!?
boy you ain't kidding. out of 260 ft. so far we have only scrapped 4 ft. the way i have it figured, we'll use 245 of the 260. so i have to figure out a place for that 11ft. :-D :-D :-D
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Put a diagonal from the right side cage tube juncture (on the tunnel) to the upper right main hoop. That'll use up about 4'. vic
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Put a diagonal from the right side cage tube juncture (on the tunnel) to the upper right main hoop. That'll use up about 4'. vic
already have that bar planned. give me another idea.
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Hows about some in the trunk to tie in parachute/push bar? Looks good :cheers:
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Hows about some in the trunk to tie in parachute/push bar? Looks good :cheers:
already got that set of bars cut for the trunk area. was thinking of an X from main hoop to forward part of trunk like a dragcar and then some additional bracing for the forward strut bars. but mostly trying to build a really strong box inside the car. :-D
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today we threw more bars at the car. x in the roof. x in the doors. more funny car cage and the first of the bars in the rear for push/ parachute. and some bars for seat belts.
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here is an other
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here is push bar main mount
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I have been following this with some interest.... we drag raced a big block powered 1971 Camaro in the 1970s.... we never got it to Bonneville as we had always blown up all of our good parts by speedweek time.... but I wanted to.... I see that the rule book definition of engine swap is NOT the same anymore.... it USED TO STATE that the criteria included bell housing bolt pattern, cylinder head bolt pattern and intake manifold bolt pattern- which would have made the Pontiac Big Chief heads illegal in production as the intake bolt pattern is not the same as a standard big block Chevy.... but that has now changed....
I am curious though.... did the information you receive clearly state thay your block design met the criteria for it to be considered and engine swap and did you get it in writing?... the "in writing" part and the possession thereof may be critical at record certification time.....
The cage structure looks like it is going to be really good when its all done!
I hope to see you in tech!
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I have been following this with some interest.... we drag raced a big block powered 1971 Camaro in the 1970s.... we never got it to Bonneville as we had always blown up all of our good parts by speedweek time.... but I wanted to.... I see that the rule book definition of engine swap is NOT the same anymore.... it USED TO STATE that the criteria included bell housing bolt pattern, cylinder head bolt pattern and intake manifold bolt pattern- which would have made the Pontiac Big Chief heads illegal in production as the intake bolt pattern is not the same as a standard big block Chevy.... but that has now changed....
I am curious though.... did the information you receive clearly state thay your block design met the criteria for it to be considered and engine swap and did you get it in writing?... the "in writing" part and the possession thereof may be critical at record certification time.....
The cage structure looks like it is going to be really good when its all done!
I hope to see you in tech!
yes it met the criteria as engine swap. what i did was change the camaro from a 1972 to a 1973. in 73, camaro was not offered with a bigblock. hence it is a swap. too easy. and aftermarket front clip is considered a safety improvement, so that does not limit me to altered, as for production..well i won't be running in that class. i will concentrate on CGC,CBGC,CGALT, CBFALT,CBGALT. and thank you. i'm glad that we are doing something right here. i'm just sorry that it took so many posts to figure out what class i'll be in. but since we got that issue resolved, we are full speed ahead on the build. i am really pleased with the way it's coming together. this is going to be the safest camaro on the salt. oh..........and one of the fastest. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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Looking Good :cheers:
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here is push bar main mount
Looking good but you might run some diagonal bracing [probably are] and a bar up to roll bars on that rear piece and make that a combo push and parachute pull mount. Make sure on right height for parachute. :cheers:
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here is push bar main mount
Looking good but you might run some diagonal bracing [probably are] and a bar up to roll bars on that rear piece and make that a combo push and parachute pull mount. Make sure on right height for parachute. :cheers:
is there a required height for parachute mount or is there something i'm not think about? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?
and yes i'll be adding a few more bars in the trunk area. :-D :-D :-D :-D
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my thinking for the pushbar/parachute mount is to have the Central point be where the gas fill used to be. that mount will be for the pushbar as well as an intergrated mount for the parachutes lanyard. i'll be running 2 chutes and mount each chute between each bank of taillights and lic. plate mount. any thought?
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my thinking for the pushbar/parachute mount is to have the Central point be where the gas fill used to be. that mount will be for the pushbar as well as an intergrated mount for the parachutes lanyard. i'll be running 2 chutes and mount each chute between each bank of taillights and lic. plate mount. any thought?
The center of gravity height which cam height on a pushrod V8 is suposed to be close. On the 222 car the parachute mount
is about 2 in. higher which puts it in line with center of chute when opened. Our lines come out near top of bumper but still in bumper [about 11/2 in. hole] and are mounted with a 5/8 bolt from brackets off frame. Actually steel cables [used to know a boat rigger] for bolt then attached to chute lines one line next to other.
Our engine is low so each car is different.
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Looking good and you'll be racing in some good car classes, good planning!! :cheers: Dave
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my thinking for the pushbar/parachute mount is to have the Central point be where the gas fill used to be. that mount will be for the pushbar as well as an intergrated mount for the parachutes lanyard. i'll be running 2 chutes and mount each chute between each bank of taillights and lic. plate mount. any thought?
The center of gravity height which cam height on a pushrod V8 is suposed to be close. On the 222 car the parachute mount
is about 2 in. higher which puts it in line with center of chute when opened. Our lines come out near top of bumper but still in bumper [about 11/2 in. hole] and are mounted with a 5/8 bolt from brackets off frame. Actually steel cables [used to know a boat rigger] for bolt then attached to chute lines one line next to other.
Our engine is low so each car is different.
jl222, can you show me a pic of your set-up? :-D
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my thinking for the pushbar/parachute mount is to have the Central point be where the gas fill used to be. that mount will be for the pushbar as well as an intergrated mount for the parachutes lanyard. i'll be running 2 chutes and mount each chute between each bank of taillights and lic. plate mount. any thought?
The center of gravity height which cam height on a pushrod V8 is suposed to be close. On the 222 car the parachute mount
is about 2 in. higher which puts it in line with center of chute when opened. Our lines come out near top of bumper but still in bumper [about 11/2 in. hole] and are mounted with a 5/8 bolt from brackets off frame. Actually steel cables [used to know a boat rigger] for bolt then attached to chute lines one line next to other.
Our engine is low so each car is different.
jl222, can you show me a pic of your set-up? :-D
Bvillercr might be able to next weekend. But I'll try to explain, there are 4 brackets 1/8'' thick welded to tube rounded on ends and fitted to tube, like this | | | | spacing is about 1'' between brackets and 3'' in middle, then they braced top and bottom of each outside bracket similar to how SCTA wants the roll bar bracing. Brackets are 23/4 deep overall, less to middle of tube. bolt goes thru middle of brackets Metal tube goes thru body and bumper and two steel cables go through tube through chute
lines and back to bolt :-P Cables with ends for bolt, made up by boat rigger.
Pro Chassis then ran braces from outside brackets back to another bar.
Cables mount in middle 3'' section.
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today was a good day. got alot done. more bars in seat area, finished x brace, added bars from main hoop to shock towers, bars from towers to push/ parachute bar.and a couple braces. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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these are shock tower bars.
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and with the seat in.
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x brace
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and looking up above drivers head.
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i know, now come those famous gussets. just like SCTA wants them. and...........all over. :-D
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well i guess it's time for an update. we threw more bars at the car. cut out firewall for engine set-back. now we are installing steering and pedals. next we figure out were to put the bullet. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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here are more bars around seat area.
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and more pics
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all my years of building cars as light as possible. and now it's the total opposite. :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o
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here's one more of the firewall. it's a 12 gauge piece so i should have no problem with tech in that dept. :-D :-D :-D :-D
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i'll probably have to trim some more once das bullet is in place.
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wow, no critiquing. i figure you guys would find something wrong with my build by now. :? :? :?
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how about this for an update?
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ya know, this resizing of pics is really getting to be a pain in the ass and i am about to give up on this site because of it. why is it so freekin difficult!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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lets try this
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looks like a pretty serious bullet to me :-o
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thanks sparky. i'm trying to post more pics but this resizing thing is a pain. anyway, here are the brake and clutch pedals.
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how about those gussets?
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well i meant these.
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or maybe these.
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here's one more of the firewall. it's a 12 gauge piece so i should have no problem with tech in that dept. :-D :-D :-D :-D
......"only 12 guage.....?" I used 1/8 plate!...... and I welded in a whole bunch of 1/8" NPT couplings so that ALL the hoses and lines that went through the fire wall had a means of REALLY being sealed .....
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Nice work on the tubes! The front end looks good!
The fill plates are a good idea, however you need to leave access to the tube to allow them to be cut out. That's why they spec a gap at the joint when using smaller gussets. You might want to email tech before you weld them in. They may need slight modification.
Geo
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There are probably a few details that I would have done differently but that is, without a doubt, one of the strongest and well design cages I have seen! Nice job and excellent workmanship.
Rex
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er-----if the body is not in the shape you wanted it ---it might---now notice---I said might be hard to do a body off restoration now---- lol :cheers: :cheers:
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Nice work on the tubes! The front end looks good!
The fill plates are a good idea, however you need to leave access to the tube to allow them to be cut out. That's why they spec a gap at the joint when using smaller gussets. You might want to email tech before you weld them in. They may need slight modification.
Geo
ALREADY DID THAT AND GOT THE OK FROM MR KENNEDY. PLUS THEY ARE OPEN AT THE CORNERS
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There are probably a few details that I would have done differently but that is, without a doubt, one of the strongest and well design cages I have seen! Nice job and excellent workmanship.
Rex
thanks rex, and what would you have done differently? still time for modifications :-D :-D :-D. but thanks again.
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here's one more of the firewall. it's a 12 gauge piece so i should have no problem with tech in that dept. :-D :-D :-D :-D
......"only 12 guage.....?" I used 1/8 plate!...... and I welded in a whole bunch of 1/8" NPT couplings so that ALL the hoses and lines that went through the fire wall had a means of REALLY being sealed .....
hell, the 12 gauge is only .021 thinner than 1/8. i'll be ok. and the bungs thru the wall are coming. gotta figure out where stuff goes first.
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lol "gotta figure out where stuff goes first" :-)
a lot of time in LSR builds seem to be waiting for the car or bike to tell one where it wants STUFF---
4 off us yesterday spent most of the afternoon working through hoop and lower rail placements
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Get in touch if you'd like to learn the "secret" of posting photos - with no resizing necessary. I agree that it's a bother to try and make everything fit, but it's that way to keep the entire file size of the site within reason. The other way - photobucket - uses basically no space.
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i'll do that slim. but later.thanks :-D
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My only change is in your joint design. I do not like to have tube bays that are not triangulated and also do not like to have tubes joined into the middle of other tubes without other tubes at the same joint to distribute the load. Take a look at the attached pic and you will see what I am talking about. Your cage is still very strong and very well built.
PS: the truck frame in the attached pic is an off road truck built at the Herbest Brothers race shop.
Rex
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That's allot of pipe!
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Where are the...oh nevermind. :lol: :cheers:
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My only change is in your joint design. I do not like to have tube bays that are not triangulated and also do not like to have tubes joined into the middle of other tubes without other tubes at the same joint to distribute the load. Take a look at the attached pic and you will see what I am talking about. Your cage is still very strong and very well built.
PS: the truck frame in the attached pic is an off road truck built at the Herbest Brothers race shop.
Rex
wow, that's a cage. i understand what you're saying rex. i'll look at mine closer and see if i can remedy any open spots. i did leave some bars out on the pass.door. like the X and the cross bar across the car and also one upper X bar on driver side for ease of the build. once i'm done inside the car i'll weld in the pre fitted bars to complete the cage.
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and the driver side and thanks again. i'm glad i'm doing something right.
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so now we have added some dimpled died gussets to tie in the body to the cage more than just the rollcage mounting points. got the midplate done and trans crossmember.
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dimples are the same on both sides.
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That is one hell for stout roll cage.
The build is looking great! :cheers:
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That is one hell for stout roll cage.
The build is looking great! :cheers:
i really appreciate it, thanks.
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Heavy duty :-D. you might want to consider cutting the corners of the triangles back a little just in case the unthinkable happens so the rescue folks can get the cutters in there. just a thought.
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I was asked to leave 3"---wow what a cage ! :cheers:
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Heavy duty :-D. you might want to consider cutting the corners of the triangles back a little just in case the unthinkable happens so the rescue folks can get the cutters in there. just a thought.
That plating appears to be low enough to not hinder the Jaws cutting the top off to get you out. But if they try to take you out the door, it could hinder progress. Any guys on the "cut team" looking? It might be a good idea to send pics to the tech guys.
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Heavy duty :-D. you might want to consider cutting the corners of the triangles back a little just in case the unthinkable happens so the rescue folks can get the cutters in there. just a thought.
That plating appears to be low enough to not hinder the Jaws cutting the top off to get you out. But if they try to take you out the door, it could hinder progress. Any guys on the "cut team" looking? It might be a good idea to send pics to the tech guys.
i have............to mr kennedy and he said i'm good to go :-D :-D :-D
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Cool cus I was considering doing a similar thing to our '91 camaro for "containment" reasons.
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Bals.... looking good... I seem to recognize those tubular gussets and center windshield (Earnhardt Bar)... Great Work.
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/IMG_1104.jpg)
I sure Like the FC cage option you added.. No way I could fit in there,, that is why I opted for the custom fitted 1/4" thick full containment seat...
good luck and keep up the good work..
More Pics...
Charles
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I agree with Charles :cheers: and always like his stuff, well thoughtout. Maybe I can get him to build us a cage some time :-D
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Just remember I can't weld,,, I can design, cut/bend and consult....
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well hell. bring that car out here to the west coast and we'll make yours even better than mine. each car we learn from and improve the next one.
and thanks for the compliments. we are trying to do a good job. i do appreciate all the input. helps with more ideas. and yes, i am a HUGE DALE EARNHARDT FAN so you know i had to have an EARNHARDT BAR. :-D :-D :-D :-D. and charles................thats a fine looking chassis you have there. i hope when mine is complete, i'll be able to look as good as you. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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uh I don't think you are going to want to pull the body of for a pict :-D
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uh I don't think you are going to want to pull the body of for a pict :-D
yeah, that would be a real m$%#&r f#$&#r of a job.............no :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?
how about this pic instead?
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or maybe this one. decided on no front brakes.
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today we are going to start a new thread with the correct year of the camaro. i don't want the powers to be to get confused as to why a camaro with a bigblock would be in CGC. it's easy, in 1973 , a camaro was not offered with a bigblock. so i am making my 1972 camaro INTO A 1973 CAMARO :-D :-D :-D :-D. so there it is. this is now officially the new build diary for the camaro. thanks seldem seen slim.
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Well, sorta. That is -- I merged the two topics/threads and that allowed me to retitle all of the old (1972) posts as 1973. Therefore it be said that all the stuff that went before this here post yusta say the older date but now shows the newer one. There is only one thread.
Got it?
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got it, thanks again. i feel complete now. :-D
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That is a nice cage and a first class build.
Bill
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well today was another productive day. the car is sitting on the ground. check it out.
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ooppps. lets try that again. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Aren't those steps that really make you feel like you're progressing great! :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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well i do have to admit pete, up to this stage so far, it seemed every time we worked on it we made good progress. we would attack a task . get it done and move on to the next project. there were three guys on it till now. i have a very good friend doug who has been filling and patching every hole on the car to seal it as best as possible . then i have another good friend jim harris of harris fabrication in campbell calif who is the best chassis fab guy on the planet who has done the majority of the tube fitting and ALL of the welding. then there is me who had the task of cutting and fitting and design. so far we estimate about 300 hours in just the build phase of chassis and cage. 150 hours being mostly jims beautiful work. i cannot express how thankful i am to have the friends i do that are helping with my goal of to them just a hat but i think they understand that its NOT JUST A RED HAT. anyway, guys , thank you, thank you thank you. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: next saturday we bring car home to fremont and stat putting it together. can't wait. i am thinking of haveing it done to take to the last el mirage event to get teched and maybe a license pass. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-o :-o :-o :-o
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That is one great looking roller. Now the fun starts...the details! I owe you a phone call but eveytime I remembered last week it was either 3am my time or 3 am your time. Again, that is a well built chassis. I will call next week. Keep the pictures coming. If it was not for good friends I would be just bench racing.
Bill
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thanks bill, here's a shot of a ballast plate i made. weighs 90 pounds and is held in with two 7/8 bolts and trapped by the three bars above. which will be the mounts for the 10 pounds fire bottles. one bottle per bar.
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roller.
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this should be easier to see now.
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Bill really hit the"nail on the head" it is the detail that take all of the time. I have worked on many projects from building cars to huge machine tools and it is amazing how a project can look so much like it is almost done and from a time perspective you have all of the endless details left to do that take most of the time. Great looking car and keep hammering away on it.
Rex
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you are so right rex, thanks.
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Very nice build. Let me get this straight.... I have a 1971 Camaro that came with a big block so If I wanted to run Gas Coupe ( engine swap ) I could declare my car now a 1973 Camaro.... that didn't come with a big block ? Please educate me on this. Thanks
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Very nice build. Let me get this straight.... I have a 1971 Camaro that came with a big block so If I wanted to run Gas Coupe ( engine swap ) I could declare my car now a 1973 Camaro.... that didn't come with a big block ? Please educate me on this. Thanks
Right...........
as long as it has the correct lighting, spoilers, etc....
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I wouldn't rely on that only Corvettes and Camaros or sorta "weird" :-D
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That sounds a little strange to me, but I have been confused before...
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When it comes to BBC classification
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so this weeks progress consisted of picking up the camaro from the fab shop and transporting it to my friends bodyshop. need to take care of a rust spot on the passenger cowling area and a spot at the driver footwell / firewall. once that phase is done, we'll bring her back to fab shop to finish firewall. bodyshop phase is an estimated two weeks i figure in three weeks i'll be throwing parts at her. i have a smaller wet sump big block i might install so as i can have a running car sooner so i can take to el mirage before end of year. gives me more time to set up DAS BULLIT even better. and again have tech inspect and inform me of any modifications needed before paint and powdercoat. and possibly even a license pass or two. :-D :-D :-D
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picked up car from bodyshop and now we bring back to fab shop for firewall completion. then back to bodyshop for roof-flaps. i love when my plan comes together. :-D :-D :-D
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Great to hear. send pictures!
Bill
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bound for home.
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tight squeeze. :-D
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DAS BULLET in mock up.
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and my 1/2" thick steel motorplate. all my dragrace buddies just look at me and scratch their heads. :? :? :?
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Love the plates on the Cobra!!!!!
Great Project!!!
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Love the plates on the Cobra!!!!!
Great Project!!!
thank you. cobra is for sale. check www.modaautolounge.com and do a search on 2007 vehicles to see the break down on cobra. thanks again.
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Hey Jeff!! No updates since may? You gonna make it?
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nope not gonna make this speedweek. hopefully next year. it seems a divorce got in my way. still in the middle of that. i did sell my cobra though and that helped a ton in the parts dept. my custom kinsler fuel injection will be here on thursday. mike cook is delivering my wheels and tires to me at the salt on fri. 12 aug. racepak ordered and paid for. two cars together with the $. that way i get two cars for the price of one. besides, i can always build me an other cobra someday..............maybe. been there done that. think i see a ferrari in the works. but thats down the road. right now, it's all about BONNEVILLE baby. and the quest for MY RED HAT.
hey thundersalt......................you gonna make it?
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Yes, we are almost ready. No major changes just looking to have fun and still trying to maybe sell it. See ya there!
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you bet , see ya there.
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ON MY WAY HOME FROM SPEEDWEEK AND WHAT A GREAT TIME, helped out bill rielly on his car this weekend and i can't wait to get home and start working on my camaro. i hope all who are there are doing well, going fast and of course come home safe.
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Jeff:
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I bet you got some great ideas for your build. I look forward to helping you next year. You car is going to be Bad A$$!
Bill
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Nice build :-D!!!! How much and what is left on the car to complete.
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thanks bill. or should i say mr. 200. it was a pleasure, thanks for allowing me to part of your team. matt and mike are great people too. as for you jorge. what you see is how far along the build is. it would take too long to list what needs to be done. just keep following. will post a few pics soon.
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Jeff, good to talk to Friday night. Thanks again for the help at speed week.
That kinsler injection is bada$$. I can't wait to see a picture of it on the motor.
Have you decided on a front air dam & rear spoiler?
Bill
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hello all. yes still alive and kickin'. happy new year to all and i'm here to say that the build is back on. amazing how a divorce can disrupt one's life. still might have to sell house and move but hey........... at least i got the house , right?. anyway. life is good now and i can play with my toys again :-D :-D :cheers:. i'll buy a camera soon so i can post pics again. of course she took the one i had. :roll: so.....will be in touch soon and cant wait for the RRF................room reservation frenzy.
and mr. 200mph bill........great to talk to you the other day.
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When I took a picture of my motor I thought about you and the das Bullett
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awwww, thanks sparky.
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Jeff, great to hear... I look forward to the pictures. A divorce where you still have the house and the AA/CGC sounds as good as it could be. No distractions now.
Bill
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Sorry to hear about your divorce. Hopefully better days ahead. Feel for you that it didn't work out.
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Whats upp with this project??????
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No worries. Project still in work. Albeit slowly. Car is at header guys place now.
have been working on drag car lately. It's easier to work on when it is so close to completion. I think Camaro is still a couple years out. I'll have some pics of the cars up shortly.
Missed speedweek this year due to a death of a very close friend. We'll try again next year.
Hope all is well out there in speedland and hello to my friend Bill At Parkland Autosport
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Jeff:
You have been off the grid so long.
Let's see some fresh photos.
Now I know you go both ways, Drag and LSR. :)
BR
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You busted me Bill. Don't tell anyone I go that way ok? I'll post some pics soon.
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I'm still alive. And thank God Mr. Poteet is too.
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Jeff:
Lets get that double A Classic Gas Coupe finished up. We ain't getting any younger. I cannot seem to get my junk together so I will just crew for you!
BR
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dimples are the same on both sides.
Mad skills! Great work!
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Ok , so............................................................ I'm back. AND I'm back working on the Camaro :-D Got the headers pretty much done except for the E.G.T. and O2 sensor bungs. Now I'm working on my ballast boxes. Basically I've enclosed the backseat area of the car. Built a box per say. I plan on having individual 25 LB. bags of lead. Place them in the box. Bolt the lid on. Then my water tanks will be bolted on top and of course to the cage. My question to you folks is as follows.................................Is my idea legal? Has anyone else tried this method of ballast? Think it will work?
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I think you would be better served to place the weight boxes under the floor, between the axle center lines.
DW
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Ok , so............................................................ I'm back. AND I'm back working on the Camaro :-D Got the headers pretty much done except for the E.G.T. and O2 sensor bungs. Now I'm working on my ballast boxes. Basically I've enclosed the backseat area of the car. Built a box per say. I plan on having individual 25 LB. bags of lead. Place them in the box. Bolt the lid on. Then my water tanks will be bolted on top and of course to the cage. My question to you folks is as follows.................................Is my idea legal? Has anyone else tried this method of ballast? Think it will work?
The 222 Camaro has two boxes, welded to frame, box top bolted with several 5/16 bolts, behind the rear tires, filled with lead ingots melted from wheel weights, batteries on top. Guessing at size but about 12x10 and 8'' deep.
JL222
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I think you would be better served to place the weight boxes under the floor, between the axle center lines.
DW
[/quote
Point noted. I am also going to run a one inch thick plate under the car for a more central center of gravity. Or lower. However you want to put it. Two of them. One under each side and about two feet by four feet or so. At least that's what I'm thinking. Going for about a 6500 LB weight total. :? :? :?
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You need to get permission from the committee chair of the category/class you want to run regards the under car allowances. See section 16.
DW
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You need to get permission from the committee chair of the category/class you want to run regards the under car allowances. See section 16.
DW
ok will do thx DW
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All Right...Jeff's back on the Bonneville Camaro. I have missed this build while you worked on the 1/4 Chevelle. Lets get with it Jeff and upload some pics.
Bill
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Ok so I have a question and I hope you guys might be able to steer me in a direction that I have not played with before. I'm playing with my front suspension and I was wondering........................Now I know the 911 roadster has no front or rear suspension., My question is........Has anyone tried running a door car with no front suspension. ????? I mean I understand it has steering. Obviously :roll: but what about running car on the bump stop???? Does anyone know if this is possible???????? And what would be the down side or up side????? Help.
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Ok so I have a question and I hope you guys might be able to steer me in a direction that I have not played with before. I'm playing with my front suspension and I was wondering........................Now I know the 911 roadster has no front or rear suspension., My question is........Has anyone tried running a door car with no front suspension. ????? I mean I understand it has steering. Obviously :roll: but what about running car on the bump stop???? Does anyone know if this is possible???????? And what would be the down side or up side????? Help.
We are considering doing some thing....
(http://www.roddingroundtable.com/forums/files/burkland_156.jpg)
.... similar to what Tom Burkland did with his Datsun. He ran a custom tube axle in the front and both axles swung on trailer leaf springs front and back and the springs had shackles on both ends and were located with bars. Less than an inch of travel and the car had a lot of downforce at speed so from about 180 on up was on the stops (so more or less solid).
I personally hope we have the time to try this out, but sure hope we don't upset how the car drives since it drives so nice now. Now we have A-arms and have very little travel on the coil-overs and have stops that we might be on at speed. The rules do say that you can't run a-arms without springs. My personal opinion is unless you have a really sophisticated suspension that at higher speeds, I'll say over 250, the suspension just doesn't have time to react to things. You are traveling over the distance of a football field in a second. Unfortunately really fast cars need really good tracks (one exception I know of was Speed Demon ran course 1 in 2013 when a number of people thought the course was too rough). If you are running a slower car and have suspension there will be years when you can still run and the fast guys don't take their cars off the trailer,
Sumner
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That is some good info Sumner> Thx. would anyone else like to chime in on this subject? I think the more input the better.
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My 'liner was going to be solid but after walking around the course and checking things out, I realized I didn't want to be a trailer queen! That's why I went with suspension.
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I'm not going total solid suspension . I probably should've mentioned that earlier. I plan on having just a little rear suspension. I'll be running leafspring rear with traction bars and the quickchange. If i do have any front suspension it will be minimal. One inch or less. Rear i'm hoping to have just a bit more. I ask this because by the time i get the car weighted down, I'll have minimal travel left in front so I'm thinking just make the front solid. I do understand the course is not smooth as glass, but if it worked for the 911 roadster, why wouldn't it work for me at the same weight or more? Or less, gotta get out there and try it.
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Jeff:
Good to see you back. I am interested in the answers and ideas.
Take care friend.
BR
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Ok so I have a question and I hope you guys might be able to steer me in a direction that I have not played with before. I'm playing with my front suspension and I was wondering........................Now I know the 911 roadster has no front or rear suspension., My question is........Has anyone tried running a door car with no front suspension. ????? I mean I understand it has steering. Obviously :roll: but what about running car on the bump stop???? Does anyone know if this is possible???????? And what would be the down side or up side????? Help.
One downside is no pitch rotation [ shifting weight to rear tires on acceleration] if top speed is met before running out of track it wouldn't matter. My SUV pitch rotates at every stop. Keeps tire spin down.
Traction would be limited due to high wheel rate.
One of the worst rides of my life was in a dune buggy at Pismo Beach beat the crap out of me at every ripple on the soft
sand. Another was a Triumph flat tracker that my brother and I bought at 16 yrs old. OK on smooth pavement but don't
even try to sit down off road.
As far as suspension not reacting at high speeds, are car coil springs slower [ yea shocks] than valve springs at
8000 rpm?
JL222
JL222
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Ok so I have a question and I hope you guys might be able to steer me in a direction that I have not played with before. I'm playing with my front suspension and I was wondering........................Now I know the 911 roadster has no front or rear suspension., My question is........Has anyone tried running a door car with no front suspension. ????? I mean I understand it has steering. Obviously :roll: but what about running car on the bump stop???? Does anyone know if this is possible???????? And what would be the down side or up side????? Help.
One downside is no pitch rotation [ shifting weight to rear tires on acceleration] if top speed is met before running out of track it wouldn't matter. My SUV pitch rotates at every stop. Keeps tire spin down.
Traction would be limited due to high wheel rate.
One of the worst rides of my life was in a dune buggy at Pismo Beach beat the crap out of me at every ripple on the soft
sand. Another was a Triumph flat tracker that my brother and I bought at 16 yrs old. OK on smooth pavement but don't
even try to sit down off road.
As far as suspension not reacting at high speeds, are car coil springs slower [ yea shocks] than valve springs at
8000 rpm?
JL222
JL222
Thanks JL I will take that into consideration. Maybe I should mention that the car will have minimal travel in front. so little that the shocks are about bottomed out. So I guess I'm not looking at a solid front but rather a very limited travel front.
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Well fellas, we are about to leave for speed week. When I say we, I mean Dave MacDonald and team. I am crewing as car chief and second driver. Going to get my license passes out of the way. Then its game on. I am selling the Bals Asalt Camaro. No, I'm not giving up on my quest for the Red Hat. I just have a proven piece under my ass and I dont see a need to spend anymore time or money on an unproven piece. That said, I'm not a poser anymore. I'm actually a racer now. :roll: :roll: :roll: Hope all who are going to speed week have a great time. Go Fast and Be Safe. See you on the salt.
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No need to start a new topic. Just letting you know I'm still here and and still speeding. I've purchased Dave Macdonalds Firebird and we're going after more records with the car going to the 2020 World Finals. fingers crossed.
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BTW, we are no longer AA/CGC Now we are AA/GALT 1135
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Pulling for you Brother.
BR
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Might as well start with a soft record -- it's only 274.
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Might as well start with a soft record -- it's only 274.
Stan, he bought MacDonald's car, the Gen IV Firebird. The AA/GAlt record is 308 MPH. Might as well skip the Red hat & Go for Blue...
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I just dyed one of mine -- it's a lot cheaper.
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I just dyed one of mine -- it's a lot cheaper.
Rolling on the ground LMAO :cheers:
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Might as well start with a soft record -- it's only 274.
Stan, he bought MacDonald's car, the Gen IV Firebird. The AA/GAlt record is 308 MPH. Might as well skip the Red hat & Go for Blue...
GAS AA/GALT 274. 125
FUEL AA/FALT 308.983
JL222