Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA General Chat => Topic started by: dr j on October 22, 2010, 05:30:49 PM
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I just wanted to let everyone know that we will be have another Nitrous 250cc 4-stroke Motorcycle Shoot-out at Maxton for the October meet in 1 week. You may have already read our exploits from last month in the 3 part long posting I wrote and Jon W. posted for me.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,8664.msg141622.html#msg141622
This meet Eric “Racer X” and I will be doing it again and we are hoping to be joined by a 3rd Nitrous 250/4 bike. Our bottles are full and Eric's engine is rebuilt. Come on out and compete or watch. You’ll see that small bikes have a higher fun per cc ratio.
I am just trying to drum up attendance and entries for this last meet of the Maxton year. Then you’ll have all winter to say “Woulda, shoulda, coulda, and if only….”
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I am bringing it , :-D
New engine ,New methanol/nitrous fuel system and Ignition maps, New windshield. I have a new fuel tank that is lighter smaller and it will make my body position narrower and lower. I also have a smaller helmet.
And a salad for dinner and some bicycle riding to loose weight. I dont know what else I could do since September .I would even drink some Red Bull I thought it would help. :cheers:
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Looking good Eric,
Man how I wish I had a 250 Ninja too ! You guys are having tons of fun...
I understand and appreciate what the small cc bike pilots do, as I am a small cu. in car guy...
there is nothing like doing more with less !!! or at least trying.
See you all next weekend.
Charles
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I am bringing it , :-D
New engine ,New methanol/nitrous fuel system and Ignition maps, New windshield. I have a new fuel tank that is lighter smaller and it will make my body position narrower and lower. I also have a smaller helmet.
And a salad for dinner and some bicycle riding to loose weight. I dont know what else I could do since September .I would even drink some Red Bull I thought it would help. :cheers:
We will be cheering you on again.
Run Forest Run :-D
The 9602 crew
Dr. J
I am looking forward to another write up like the last one, that was a good read.
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But Charles dose int the Stude have a 250 engine?
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"I am bringing it ,
New engine ,New methanol/nitrous fuel system and Ignition maps, New windshield. I have a new fuel tank that is lighter smaller and it will make my body position narrower and lower. I also have a smaller helmet." Racer X
Eric, that new tank gives it a great and sinister racing look. It's faster just sitting still. Then add on the rest of the aero changes, the Methanol/NOS combo, and of course the pistons without the ventilating holes in the top ;-) and you really are bringing it! Cool. I am worried about the smaller helmet though. You should need a bigger helmet after your September success with becoming the World's Fastest 250 Ninja!
As for me, I have a lonely Honda 250 Single running scared from all the Kawasaki Twins. I re-welded my exhaust pipe so it is intact all the way to the rear as intended and replaced clutch plates and springs. I am bringing bigger combos of nitrous and fuel jets. It is after all October and we have all winter to rebuild......Go Big or Go Home! And yes Todd D. my lower fairing is designed to hold oil.
"You guys are having tons of fun... " Charles
Charles, we are having a quarter liter of fun!!
"Dr. J
I am looking forward to another write up like the last one, that was a good read." Don
Don, thanks. Glad you enjoyed it. I just started writing and kinda got carried away. But I wanted to remember that experience years from now. To have a meet like that and to be able to share it with my wife and two good friends having similar successes surpassed my highest expectations. LSR at its best!
See everyone next week!!
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But Charles dose int the Stude have a 250 engine?
Dang good point Eric, the Stude would run in the 250 class as it has a 255.6 cu. in. motor..
I knew there was another reason we are racing brothers.... I really am a member of the 250 club.. LOL
See you and the 1/4 Liter Club guys next weekend.
Charles
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I don't think the helmet will be a problem. After all . I am only the second fastest 250 -4 . Catching your running scared Honda at 126.671 will be a tough job.
Charles you are always welcome in any club.
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man, I want to NOS the 1/8 liter bike now
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put it on the Buell. :-D
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I have had some comment about my shield. I tried the stock shield .Then the double bubble .The bubble was slower. Then I tried an extension in the stock shield. It filled the gap in front of my helmet and seemed to be better.Without a wind tunnel I am guessing in the dark. So I thought I would seek help from the people that know .
My new shield is the same length as the one I made .But it is smooth and has a shallow angle of attack. Itis a little wider at the top but has a small lip . The first one has a big bump seam where I joined the two pieces.
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Eric, My guess is the new one will be better.
What we could do is tie a rope from my rear push bar on the Stude to your Bike, let me pull you up to about 150mph and then let off a smoke bomb and see how smoke goes over the new wind screen !!!!
Or you could just run down the course and see if it feels better and goes faster...
Or you can rent two hours tunnel time and we can try lots of other tricks too...
Just kidding.
See you Friday evening.
Charles
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Charles. Giving me enough rope has never been a good idea.
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I have had some comment about my shield. I tried the stock shield .Then the double bubble .The bubble was slower. Then I tried an extension in the stock shield. It filled the gap in front of my helmet and seemed to be better.Without a wind tunnel I am guessing in the dark. So I thought I would seek help from the people that know .
My new shield is the same length as the one I made .But it is smooth and has a shallow angle of attack. Itis a little wider at the top but has a small lip . The first one has a big bump seam where I joined the two pieces.
Eric, my guess is that the old one with the extension is better. But to make sure you could rent time on a 1 mile long concrete strip with at least a 0.4mi shutdown area. Invite some of your closest friends to come and help. Then check your speed at the end of 1 mile with the one on the bike now. Then change it to the other one and try again. I would suggest doing that testing this next weekend so you have data to make an informed decision. Then when Maxton Mile is next running......oh wait...... that is this weekend. Hey, that might do for a testing facility!
What we could do is tie a rope from my rear push bar on the Stude to your Bike, let me pull you up to about 150mph and then let off a smoke bomb and see how smoke goes over the new wind screen !!!!
But I really like Charles' idea and using a video camera shot by a passenger on a bike right next to you with another bike holding the blue backdrop on the other side of you. Eric you talk to Keith about whether we could do that :-o Or just go with whichever one looks prettier...
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I know what the bike should do. If I go faster than befor all motor then it stays. If I go slow it gets the blame. It is only 4 screws so I will do both. One thing to think about. The lip will push air up a little. So I will be behind it without having to put my chin on the tank.
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You 250cc guys a bringing a whole new dimension to the "2" club while showing the let's work to help each other to the top that LSR is known for. Five days to launch time. This is gonna be great.
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in this instance the double bubble will have more turbulance...... unless you get your helmet right up to it....the gap and the low pressure behind the windscreen will cause drag
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The difficult part is getting the helmet up to the shield without going under it. If the rider is not visible from above then it violates the "partial " streamliner rules.
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Ask "Blue" ....
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I have tested 5 windscreens and the best results we have come up with over oem on my bike was the one im running now, if you look at the photos from the sept race on DW photos site you can see how it lays and is shaped back to my head. it had the least drag in test and proved to work on the track, one of the test was with a sreen some what like your new one i think it was made by giva. and it killed us in testing, the old one that you made looks the best.
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When we did some windtunnel testing back in the 1970's........we found that we some of the best Aero with no windscreen .........just using the riders helmet for proper air-flow...............
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When we did some windtunnel testing back in the 1970's........we found that we some of the best Aero with no windscreen .........just using the riders helmet for proper air-flow...............
Was that on a bike that had no dashboard/gauges in front of the riders head? I would think that with all the data displays and junk on the front that is now hiding behind the windscreen removing it would cause tons of turbulence prior to even getting to the helmet.
But as for discussion of aerodynamics and drag I'm surprised no one has made any comments on the good or bad of the seat/tail section I made this past winter. Luckily in the Altered class, unlike Eric who is in the Modified class, I can extend the tail 10" past the rear tire.
(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8197/74104167.jpg)
You 250cc guys a bringing a whole new dimension to the "2" club while showing the let's work to help each other to the top that LSR is known for. Five days to launch time. This is gonna be great
I can't wait!
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I am limited to 3 inch behind the tire. I like the pointed tail section, I think the air comes back together in a gentle slope to the tip . Because of my short wheelbase, I cant do that. So I went with the blade rear tail section. I still have a ton of work to do this winter filling in the sides . But what I have done so far is a big help.
Next year I will be able to test the no shield idea . I am going to make the fairing brace removable. So I can make back to back passes with and without the fairing.
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When we did some windtunnel testing back in the 1970's........we found that we some of the best Aero with no windscreen .........just using the riders helmet for proper air-flow...............
I totally believe that...was the helmet above or behind the fork tubes?
Mark
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We may have a new entry in the 1/4 litre catagory if this bike makes it to the states...
(http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/273612/images/04honda-cbr250.jpg)
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2010/October/oct2710-honda-cbr250/
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Rchop, thanks for the link, especially for a Honda. Unfortunately the Honda CBR250R has never been imported to USA and trying to do so would hit major EPA followed by DOT roadblocks. But more importantly the claimed bhp is only 26 compared to 30-32 for the Kawasaki Ninja 250. So it looks cool but you start off already way behind.
Maxton Nitrous 250 Shootout results soon to come.
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I think that bike is all ready on the 2011 Honda line up. It has Fuel injection and all. The stock ninja has 26 hp . These bikes are a blast to ride. Maybe my next production racer.
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Unfortunately the Honda CBR250R has never been imported to USA and trying to do so would hit major EPA followed by DOT roadblocks.
dr j, check out this link regarding the US sales...
http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/2011-honda-cbr-250-r-into
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Unfortunately the Honda CBR250R has never been imported to USA and trying to do so would hit major EPA followed by DOT roadblocks.
dr j, check out this link regarding the US sales...
Nooooooooooooooooooo!!!
I am not ready to buy a new bike. I like my Honda 250 Custom thing that I have created. Rchop how could you send me such a link as this. Not fair. Bike projects are already lined up for the winter. But that CBR has electric start......and it's pretty in red and silver.....
Thanks for the info really.
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I sold a BMW K1200GT in 2005 when I heard the new GT was coming out. While I was waiting for the new BMW to be released, I bought a Ninja 250 to communte to work on; I rode a great 14 mile 2 lane road thru the back country of Northern San Diego county to work every day. I had such a good time with that Ninja 250 on the curvy backroad, I never replaced the BMW GT. I finally upgraded to a Triumph Scrambler a year before I retired because I found so much fun with the smaller displacement bikes.
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The new 250 Honda is a good looking bike and fuel injection would be great but my guess is that the Kawi being a twin would have more performance potential than a single. Again, that is just my first thoughts.
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Mine thoughts also . BUT the single is the fastest so far.
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Well the Maxton October Nitrous 250 Shootout was held under gorgeous weather conditions of sunny, cool air, and some tailwinds. Unfortunately the nitrous bottles don’t exactly like cold temperatures if you want the bottle pressure to actually push out some nitrous to join the extra fuel you are adding. We had all three of the expected 250s show up. Eric (Dark Horse Racing) and I (Moto Madcap) both made it through Tech Inspection Friday afternoon without any defects found. Since the September meet Eric had rebuilt his engine and clutch and added a new methanol tank to go with the NOS as well as a gorgeous new much more streamlined aluminum custom gas tank. I had repaired my exhaust pipe and added a bottle heater for the NOS.
Then we went out to dinner together and spoke eloquently about all the amazing merits of our bikes and just how fast they would be on Saturday ;-) Meanwhile Ali (RnR Cycles) was working feverishly in his shop all through the night to get his Kawasaki Ninja 250 built with a Nitrous system installed.
Saturday dawned cold and clear with a mild headwind. I decided to wait for the afternoon’s warmth and expected mild tailwind. That way my bottle heater would not have to fight the 45deg cold and the engine would not have to fight the headwind. Eric tried to fire up his bike in the morning but it refused. Then we switched it to my DocZ roller starter and found out his Ninja also did not want to change into 2nd gear, like something was jammed inside. So Eric pulled his carbs apart and found something amiss inside. He had just finished rebuilding his engine from last month so he is very familiar with how it looks inside. But it still would not shift, so he pulls his engine completely out of the bike and puts it in the back of his van. There he splits the cases and carefully inspects the clutch and tranny. He finds some small pieces of metal, probably part of last month’s piston, one of which was jammed in the gears. So once that is cleaned up he reassembles everything. He eventually gets it fired up in time to make a run in the afternoon!
Meanwhile I work my way up to the line. Because of my inefficient mounting the bottle heater can only get the pressure up to 800psi. I make a run with the engine sounding happy, firing the nitrous just before the ¾ mile mark and I put down a 125.1mph speed on my prior record of 108 in the APS/BF-250/4 class.
Eric finally gets to run his yellow Ninja at about 5pm. But on the run he said the engine kept feeling like the clutch was acting up. Then when he fired his new methanol/NOS it made a bang heard even in the pits. He said he had been up to 108mph then coasted through the trap at 91. The highs and lows of Nitrous.
Now finally Ali shows up with a new nitrous system on his old Ninja250 which he has also lowered both in the front and rear. He gets through tech inspection and rolls up to the waiting line but to no avail. Track is shut down for the night with both Ali and myself almost to the front of the line.
Sunday morning Ali makes his 1st run which he says is a shakedown to make sure the chassis is good and stable. It is and he briefly fires his nitrous with low pressure in the bottle and goes 117.4mph. An hour later he and I go again 3 runs apart. I have my fastest time of the meet at 125.5mph! Ali then goes through with pulsed Nitrous firing this time in 5th and 6th gear and goes through with new record of 122.0mph! This beat the MPS/F-250/4 class record of 119. Later in the day he did several more runs with his best increasing the record to 122.4mph.
So the Maxton Nitrous 250 Shootout came to a close with me retaining the title of Fastest 250/4 though I did not beat my track record of 126.6 set last month. Congratulations to Ali as he now has wrested the Worlds Fastest Ninja 250 crown from Eric.
I need to say kudos to Becca and Dan of Chicago Vintage Racing for bringing an absolutely gorgeous 1954 BMW R25/3 250cc single and setting multiple records in the Pushrod 250 classes. Their fastest was 72.0mph in the Production Pushrod class with Becca as rider. She was just a little bit excited by that. I would also like to congratulate Zack Millholland of Team Millholland for getting the fastest ever all-motor 250/4 at 118.6mph!! Nice job on their Ninja. I can't wait until April to see what everyone does over the winter. I hope everyone has enjoyed reading our Maxton Mile 250cc hype and adventures. We have had a blast this year!
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Great story...I've enjoyed following the various 250 builds as each team has sorted their nitrous systems and enhanced their body work. Lots of perseverance and the fact that there is camaraderie amongst the competition is golden :cheers:
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Yeah it was a BLAST! I left about 2 mph on the table in terms of potential I still had left but didn't feel like pushing too hard, especially once I already got my record back in MPS/F. I think that it says a lot that a SINGLE has the 250/4 record though :cheers:
I'm convinced if Eric hadn't popped it he would have gone faster than I, sometimes it isn't aways about who's faster but who's still able to go even faster. I had some luck on my side though. I think next year he will be upping the bar.
And lets not forget the Millhollands went 118 n/a :-o
Here's a couple of pics of my 250, converted from a looped 250 that sat for a year to this in less than 24 consecutive hours:
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m135/shiphteey/250ali.jpg)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m135/shiphteey/250launch.jpg)
Hope to see you guys next April! :cheers:
A
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Thanks for the great write up Jarl. I wanted to thank you and the rest of the group that helped us through tech inspection with the battery strap and switching out the K&N air filter back to the stock one to qualify for production class. I guess passing tech in June does not mean you automatically pass in October :-(
It was a great event for us, walking away with 3 new records, the best being the fastest P/PV-250/4 record set at both Maxton and Bonneville, 72.085. Not bad for Rebecca's first time out, and yes she does get excited :-D
If you want to read on, and see all the photos, visit:
http://www.becks-garage.com/ (http://www.becks-garage.com/)
Daniel
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Glad that you're back Ali. I missed seeing you run since I had to leave a little early Sat. and take my wife home Sunday. Can't wait to see the 250's heat it up in April. Does Greg Neal still have his 250 Ninja?
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Hah, thanks. I'm looking forward to April too. Last I checked Greg still has his 250 but he seems to have been riding his 6 and 10 more this year.
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Just a few thoughts from a self confessed lurker down under,,,,,,
Has anyone had the strange feasibility thought of a blown 250/4 ?
Things like power consumtion V's gains with supercharging and adapting injection from a 600/4 and running alcohol fuel are wandering around in my mind.
Input anyone ?
Tiny (in OZ)
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MV did it in the 50s with a 4 cylinder. I have lost much sleep and used many napkins thinking about it. There is a nice hole in the side of the 250 Ninja case . With a simple seal and a pulley could run out of the case. Once that is done. It is a simple thing to mount a trigger wheel for timing and fuel injection.
Alcohol will be a good choice in fuel because of its cooling effect.And to generate the proper creative juices. But these are just thought as you say. I am SURE there is a lot more thinking and drinking to do. :cheers:
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Yes, someone has thought about a blown 250. Take a look-see -- and then I'll tell you that we're hoping to have it back on the salt this year. It took four records in '04 - and we haven't raced it since then.
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/DSCF0009.jpg)
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/DSCF0004.jpg)
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/DSCF0003.jpg)
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/DSCF0007.jpg)
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/Nancyandherbike.jpg)
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I Thought he meant a belt driven super charger. There are some turbos out there.
these guys in Japan and some in Indonesia have done it .But no Speed test on the bikes I can find
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57qMDj-vy5I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYskKYb7qfM
I expect to see at real turbo show up at Maxton this year.
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Oh. to me the word "blown" implies forced induction and doesn't differentiate between exhaust-driven blowers and direct from engine-driven blowers. I suppose that to some folks it does - and won't argue over the fact. I just wanted to call the bluff, so to speak. I doubt that the EX250T will make it to Maxton before October, if then. When it ran in '04 it was the first time -- and while we ran about 120-121 with it, there was lots more development to do, lots more stuff to learn, lots more power to be made. We hope to get it ready for Bonneville sometime in '11 -- after that you might see it again. But then -- maybe Santa will be good to you and you'll PM me asking to buy it as a great project.
G'night. It's bedtime in Skandia, Michigan.
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SSS , by blown, I did mean supercharged,
Racer X, I appreciate your input / experience.
Unfortunately my braincell count is down to 3 thesedays :oops: , I'm just trying to keep ahead of myself,as the current engine nears "the wall" I'd like to go up a class (capacity)in 2013, and time is running out too quickly for my proposed shot @ APSF-175 late next march.
Tiny