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East Coast Timing Association => ECTA General Chat => Topic started by: grant8605 on October 19, 2010, 01:20:52 PM

Title: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: grant8605 on October 19, 2010, 01:20:52 PM
Hi! I'm new here, and am seeking advice from all you motorcycle guys/gals, about the most logical choice for an LSR bike. I have experience with high performance/track riding, but would have gone about doing that differently, had I gotten more information before building the bike. I don't want to make the same mistake in this venture. 

My goals:

-to see what it's like to go 200 MPH
-to do it on as stock a bike as is possible ('busa w/ nitrous and some sprockets? is what pops into my head, but I dunno)
-to learn more about this interesting sport. I don't know anywhere near enough right now.
-to eventually go to Maxton, and see what my presently non-existent bike can do.
-to keep it (relatively speaking) cheap, under 10-12K. I've got everything I need except the bike (minor detail).

I don't care about breaking records. I don't care what class I'm in, whatever is necessary for me to reach my goals.

If anyone DOES read this, a few questions.......

-What kind of tires are people going 200+ running?
-If you had it to do again, would you have done anything differently?
-Any general advice for a newbie?
-Anything I'm not taking into consideration?

Thanks very much in advance to anyone who replies. I don't know where else I would go to get this kind of information. Take care..........
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on October 19, 2010, 02:37:15 PM
A box-stock Hayabusa or ZX14 will get you close -- about 186, assuming the speed limiter is still on the bike.  Our ZX14 with that limiter removed - still topped out at 185 on the salt.

You'll need about 200 or a little more horsepower to get to 200 mph.  Nancy races our other ZX14 - and it's got a big block motor among other things, like a superb tune up.  She's ridden that bike to 204 -- making about 207 hp.

The 'Busa has way more aftermarket parts and people to help you, so if you really want to be a newbie -- look for a relatively new (but used) Hayabusa.  But it for half your budget, say, and spend the rest on some good parts.  I know you can get the power necessary using nitrous -- but there are other ways, most of which aren't quite as likely to blow up the motor (as is nitrous, that is).

So -- plan on attending aan event at Maxton as soon as you can.  You'll get a chance to see in person a bunch of bikes that'll go 200, and you'll also meet a good number of us racers.  Have you got a rulebook yet?  If not -- spend the $$ and get both an ECTA and SCTA rulebook.   They're invaluable investments.

Best wishes, and welcome to the fun.
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: firemanjim on October 19, 2010, 03:13:33 PM
What Jon said. Where are you?
 Get mid year Busa=== 2003 to 2007,they are plentiful and cheap. Software available to take out speed limiter and have tune and trigger nitrous. 50 shot and sprockets probably do it if salt cooperates with traction. Did one for a friend this year and cost was reasonable.
Read rulebooks,then read them again. Bubs is your best bet as you don't need chase vehicle,race tires,and most leathers are legal,not to mention the licensing for SCTA.
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: RansomT on October 19, 2010, 03:35:06 PM
I have done this in the past with the same intent.

Like others have said, 'Busa and for simplicty a late '02 or newer.  A good aftermarket exhaust, lowered some, gearing change, a 50 shot, good fuel for Nitrous, and I would highly recommend a flashed ECU with at least a good dyno tune with someone who knows how to tune.

and with all due respect, you will probably need a few events prior to the nitrous to get the hang of LSR.

I've witnessed many new folks show up at Maxton with a turbo Busa thinking that 200 mph was only 1 run away, only to find it isn't so.


You can also get into the low, low 200s on all motor on a Gen 1 Busa, but it does all the bolt-ons, a lot of head work/cams, and a lot of experience.  The cheapest however, would be the nitrous route.  (as long as the tune is right, or it could be the most expensive.  :wink: )
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: salt27 on October 19, 2010, 04:07:55 PM
What Jon said. Where are you?
 Get mid year Busa=== 2003 to 2007,they are plentiful and cheap. Software available to take out speed limiter and have tune and trigger nitrous. 50 shot and sprockets probably do it if salt cooperates with traction. Did one for a friend this year and cost was reasonable.
Read rulebooks,then read them again. Bubs is your best bet as you don't need chase vehicle,race tires,and most leathers are legal,not to mention the licensing for SCTA.
Just curios, is the 03 to 07 Busa just a money thing or is there more to it?

Thanks, Don
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: joea on October 19, 2010, 04:13:39 PM
yep...if thats your goal...

get a busa...you can get one ready to go...they are a dime
a dozen...everyone and some of their mothers, sisters, daughters,
and sons have done it...........
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: fredvance on October 19, 2010, 04:16:09 PM
The earlier, 99-02, have some disadvantages. ECU flashing is not possible, I think. The fuel pump is external, I like the internal pump on mine. Seems like there are some other things but CRS strikes again.
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: RansomT on October 19, 2010, 06:11:49 PM
The earlier, 99-02, have some disadvantages. ECU flashing is not possible, I think. The fuel pump is external, I like the internal pump on mine. Seems like there are some other things but CRS strikes again.

Close Fred.   :-)        Mecanically all years (99-07) are nearly identical.  CRS also hits me on when the internal/external pump switch took place. 01, I think.   However, I do perfer the external pumps especially when spraying nitrous.
ECU flashing is much eaiser on later 02s and newer (32-bit ECUs).  The wiring harnesses can be repinned on 99-00 to accept the 32-bit ECUs and rotor, 01 and up has the same harness.  99-00 has no speed limiter.
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: grant8605 on October 19, 2010, 06:15:55 PM
Wow! Thanks for all the responses. A few comments/answers.............

So -- plan on attending aan event at Maxton as soon as you can.  You'll get a chance to see in person a bunch of bikes that'll go 200, and you'll also meet a good number of us racers.  Have you got a rulebook yet?  If not -- spend the $$ and get both an ECTA and SCTA rulebook.   They're invaluable investments.

Best wishes, and welcome to the fun.

I'll be out A.S.A.P, probably first thing next year. I'll get a rule book and read between now and then. Thanks!
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: grant8605 on October 19, 2010, 06:17:18 PM
Where are you?

I'm in Dayton, Ohio.
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: grant8605 on October 19, 2010, 06:30:56 PM
I have done this in the past with the same intent.

Like others have said, 'Busa and for simplicty a late '02 or newer.  A good aftermarket exhaust, lowered some, gearing change, a 50 shot, good fuel for Nitrous, and I would highly recommend a flashed ECU with at least a good dyno tune with someone who knows how to tune.

and with all due respect, you will probably need a few events prior to the nitrous to get the hang of LSR.

I've witnessed many new folks show up at Maxton with a turbo Busa thinking that 200 mph was only 1 run away, only to find it isn't so.


You can also get into the low, low 200s on all motor on a Gen 1 Busa, but it does all the bolt-ons, a lot of head work/cams, and a lot of experience.  The cheapest however, would be the nitrous route.  (as long as the tune is right, or it could be the most expensive.  :wink: )

Is the 50 shot the you refer to wet or dry? Is one easier/more cost-effective than the other?

What is a "flashed" ECU?

Looks like you're located pretty close to me. Know of any good tuners?

In regards to folks with turbos not getting to 200 the first time..... What are the obstacles they have to overcome, if they're not lacking in the machinery department? In my experience at trackdays, the largest obstacle for people to overcome is psychological. Is it the same thing with LSR? Getting a feel for the course? Good ol' fashioned cojones? (BTW.... I really appreciate this kind of insightful advice)
Thanks.
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: RansomT on October 19, 2010, 06:39:12 PM
PM sent.
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: jacksoni on October 19, 2010, 06:49:11 PM
and with all due respect, you will probably need a few events prior to the nitrous to get the hang of LSR.

I've witnessed many new folks show up at Maxton with a turbo Busa thinking that 200 mph was only 1 run away, only to find it isn't so.


It is loads of fun but work up to it. Seriously, not wishing to bring up bad stuff, but a recent competitor tried the 200 in one run deal having been told to make a 125 pass, was clocked at 191 (as I understand) but did not walk away from the crash. A very sad day, but an avoidable one.
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 20, 2010, 12:45:17 AM
Grant, there is a lot to learn.  A 600cc four cylinder is a good bike to ride for a few years.  It is fast enough to be fun and slow enough to show you how changes in setup and riding technique affect speed.  It is a good idea to master and understand the fundementals before attempting insane speeds. 
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: Peter Jack on October 20, 2010, 01:15:24 AM
As long as a guy has a somewhat sensible right hand there should be no problem in starting out with the bike you're going to use to accomplish your goals. That gives you a chance to work up at the same time as the bike. Why do more than one project?

Pete
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: grant8605 on October 20, 2010, 10:07:30 AM
Well, thanks again to everyone for their input. It is VERY MUCH appreciated.   :cheers:

As far as going 200 the first time out- maybe I have given the wrong impression. It is NOT my intent to do that, but rather to understand what skill-set is required (I'm trying to figure out what I need to work on, and IF I can work on it anywhere but Maxton). In my track (road racing) experience, it's usually the best student who asks the most questions (and learns from the answers) that excels.

Maybe I should go about it this way.......

Here is video of where I'm at skill-set-wise.  Though I'm not going anywhere near as fast as you guys do, I am very comfortable at speed. Slamming on the brakes from 135 is something I don't think twice about. Headshake at triple digits (although not in the video) is something I don't think twice about (with help from Scott's). I feel as though I have a pretty disciplined right hand, given the lean angle I'm used to (even though I AM on an SV650).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr2W1G1atW0

In addition to that, I'm pretty good at knowing my limits. I don't want to hurt myself any more than you guys want to see me hurt (really, thanks very much for the concern!). I've never been one to dive in head-first before I know how deep the water is.

So.......
-do you guys think there are any skills from road racing that translate into LSR?
-what kind of changes in setup and riding technique affect speed? (suspension setup? body positioning? is more a matter of being able to get the power down?)
-what are the fundamentals? (In road racing Keith Code's "a twist of the wrist" books are the agreed upon standard)
-what did the person that got hurt doing 191 do wrong? (with all due respect to that person, going roughly 50% above the limitation set forth is asking for trouble)

Again, and I can't day it enough, thank you all very much for taking time out to read my posts and answer questions. Take care.......
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on October 20, 2010, 11:23:14 AM
Grant, if I understand the previous posts -- the person that went 191 on his first Maxton pass died as a result of that pass.  May he rest in peace.  I do not know the details, and feel it best to let the subject lie.  That is, the ECTA investigated the crash and didn't release the findings to me - or the rest of the racers.  If it is known just what happened - I'm not one that has the knowledge.

Skills that translate from road racing to LSR?  Unh, throttle control, because you're very likely to experience wheelspin, especially as the bike's speed gets higher and higher on a run and the aero effort required becomes larger than the amount of power you can put down through the contact patch.  This generally isn't a concern at paved tracks -- but at Bonneville and El Mirage it is an absolute requirement.

Learning how to optimize your tuck is vital, since (as mentioned above) the aero wall is real and is also the best way to increase speed for a given horsepower.

Suspension adjustment is important if you have one (not a small number of bike LSR racers run hardtail, although there are good reasons why you should approach that carefully).  It's partly personal, partly setup for the track where you're running - another good reason to visit an event and get first-hand information from the racers running that day.

I've attended the four basic Keith Code schools - and not a whole heck of a lot is directly transferable to LSR, although the familiarity that comes with the courses makes it easier to learn the new stuff that'll present itself to you when you're making a pass for land speed racing.

Back to you.
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: relaxedphit on October 20, 2010, 12:34:16 PM
Grant, Most of the men/women that run here have drag racing backgrounds, but many of them may well be roadracers too. One guy you might want to talk to is Greg Neal of TNL Motorsports. I know he comes from roadracing. I come from a background of riding motorcycles on their sides which REALLY should not transfer to LSR.
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: RansomT on October 20, 2010, 12:49:09 PM
Is the 50 shot the you refer to wet or dry? Is one easier/more cost-effective than the other?
What is a "flashed" ECU?
Looks like you're located pretty close to me. Know of any good tuners?
In regards to folks with turbos not getting to 200 the first time..... What are the obstacles they have to overcome, if they're not lacking in the machinery department? In my experience at trackdays, the largest obstacle for people to overcome is psychological. Is it the same thing with LSR? Getting a feel for the course? Good ol' fashioned cojones? (BTW.... I really appreciate this kind of insightful advice)
Thanks.

First, There has been software released that allows the ECU to be reprogrammed on the Busa.  The "flash" ECU can replace the need for a Power Commander and all of it's various components.  Plus you actually get more REAL control of the motor.
I've tuned my Busa (via flashing method) so the ECU controls the fueling and timing for both all motor and dry nitrous.  THe ECU even controlls the nitrous solenoid.
It takes a while to get the hang of high speed tucking, controlling the bike at uber speed, and mentally prep'ng.
I'm going ahead a state this: setting a Busa up for the highest peak power on the dyno and/or getting it down the 1/4 mile track the quickest, isn't the setup for the 1 mile or further.
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: oz on October 20, 2010, 12:53:51 PM
Alternativley buy a 20year old dog of a bike build it tune it and run it, your really getting into the spirit of LSR then.

There seems to be this fascination for 200mph for some reason where is the challenge of doing it on a bike that is just about capable of doing these speeds already, if you wait 5 or so years you will be able to go to your honkawasuzisaki shop fork out your hard earned dollars and get a 1000cc bike that will do it straight out the box.

I have the upmost respect for anyone who runs at any speeds on the salt it is a dangerous sport that we all love and take part in, by the way and I am not trying to diminish the achievement of the 200mph figure just how we get there!

records aside Is this the way we are heading cmon guys there is more to it than that or is there?

I am stickin with my old dog till it breaks a record me or the bank!

Will never own a Busa on principal Oz!

ps I asked this question when i returned quite disheartend after a poor or what i thought was a poor performance in 09 as it happened we learnt alot and it was a good performance but the thread may be of use to you,I particulaly like Joes Quote which made me decide to run with what I have.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,6717.0.html
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: grant8605 on October 20, 2010, 10:04:24 PM
Grant, if I understand the previous posts -- the person that went 191 on his first Maxton pass died as a result of that pass.  May he rest in peace.  I do not know the details, and feel it best to let the subject lie.  That is, the ECTA investigated the crash and didn't release the findings to me - or the rest of the racers.  If it is known just what happened - I'm not one that has the knowledge.

Skills that translate from road racing to LSR?  Unh, throttle control, because you're very likely to experience wheelspin, especially as the bike's speed gets higher and higher on a run and the aero effort required becomes larger than the amount of power you can put down through the contact patch.  This generally isn't a concern at paved tracks -- but at Bonneville and El Mirage it is an absolute requirement.

Learning how to optimize your tuck is vital, since (as mentioned above) the aero wall is real and is also the best way to increase speed for a given horsepower.

Suspension adjustment is important if you have one (not a small number of bike LSR racers run hardtail, although there are good reasons why you should approach that carefully).  It's partly personal, partly setup for the track where you're running - another good reason to visit an event and get first-hand information from the racers running that day.

I've attended the four basic Keith Code schools - and not a whole heck of a lot is directly transferable to LSR, although the familiarity that comes with the courses makes it easier to learn the new stuff that'll present itself to you when you're making a pass for land speed racing.

Back to you.

Slim, if I've offended you in any way, I'm truly sorry, as that was the opposite of my intent. I may be overly-enthusiastic.

Thanks again, I appreciate everyone's input. I'll wait 'til my rulebook arrives, get to reading and go from there.
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: MiltonP on October 20, 2010, 10:06:42 PM
One thing you might want to consider is who you want to work with.  There is a Ducati shop a few blocks from my house that has always treated me like a loyal customer despite my only having purchased leathers and minor service for my Ninja 500 from them.  They are a big time road racing shop but several of the folks there have shown great interest in my LSR efforts.  I have wanted to do a project with these guys for years, so despite the fact that a Ducati is uncompetitive for ECTA records and has a snowball's chance at getting to 200 mph, I bought a 996 from someone who works there and am going to have a lot of fun seeing what can be made of it.  Going to altered class from production will be a joy and I do plan on experiencing 175 mph on it.  Then I will see if 200 mph interests me from that point.  

Many, who just don't get the joy of LSR, ask me why not just buy a MeToo and get'r done.  My response is what if I decide 175 is fast enough for me?  No challenge getting that on the busa.  

One little comment on the previously mentioned incident at Maxton.  The rider did not follow the golden rule of making passes of 125, 150 and 175 mph prior to going all out. he payed for it in the worse way unfortunately.  My suggestion is come down to Maxton with something capable of 150+ and get licensed up 175mph while soaking in the experience of land speed racing.  Then evaluate your goals from there.  You may find that you want a more difficult goal that keeps you busy for years and years!  
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 20, 2010, 10:47:55 PM
Grant, your skills are well developed.  The roadracing skills will be a big help.  My background is racing around corners, too.  It has not hurt me a bit.

People are most important.  A local dealer who supports and encourages you through winning and losing makes everything more worthwhile.

Today at work I was pondering the question about a good bike for LSR.  Why not ride a Yamaha?  They are very well made bikes and they rarely get into the record books.  That would be a sorta eccentric project.  Mostly it is Susukis, then some Kawasakis, an occasional Honda, and hardly ever a Yamaha.
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: 1212FBGS on October 20, 2010, 10:53:07 PM
Milton
is that Donny Ungers shop?
Kent
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: Beairsto Racing on October 21, 2010, 03:23:39 AM
Lots of Yamaha's have set records at Bonneville and El Mirage....Don Vesco used several different Yamaha's... Scott Guthrie filled the record books using various displacement TZ's...Jason McVicar set many records on his R1

Hayabusa's have an overwhelming aftermarket support, just like a small block Chevy.

I don't see why a late model R1, R6 etc wouldn't do well at Maxton..someone just needs to build it. There is still lots of support for smaller displacement 2 strokes....drop a stroker Banshee engine into a RD or TZ chassis and have fun!! :-D
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: joea on October 21, 2010, 09:43:14 AM
...my previous advice was given his goals..."see whats its like to go 200, as stock as possible..."

thats why i said the dang busa...

if he is wanting to have the most fun and have a sense of accomplishment have
have a great journey....with some uniqueness...

then definately please dont get a busa....

ANY brand will do....
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: roadracer on October 21, 2010, 10:33:49 AM
Grant, Most of the men/women that run here have drag racing backgrounds, but many of them may well be roadracers too. One guy you might want to talk to is Greg Neal of TNL Motorsports. I know he comes from roadracing. I come from a background of riding motorcycles on their sides which REALLY should not transfer to LSR.
Hi Grant

My background was Dirt track and Roadracing.  I have found that to be fast I had to break a lot of the roadracing habits.  I was a lot of elbows and knees and that just isn't going to get you any speed.  You will get great advice from LSR people.  Maxton is bumpy and there are some videos of our ZX-6 where you can here the wheel spin in 5th and 6th gear.  That is just places the wheel is no longer on the track.  I started with a 2006 ZX-6rr and have achieved 184.161 at Maxton and 190.118 at Loring with that bike.  We are also running a 2008 ZX-10R this year and have topped out at Maxton with a 198.887 and in Loring with 203.935.  The ZX-10 only has head and cams done.  Yeah there is a LSR front fender and race body.  We went 203 in Maine on 189 HP.  Kevin Hunt at KWS Motorsports in North Charleston, SC is the man behind our power.  Be happy to talk to you anytime about it.
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: oz on October 21, 2010, 12:45:41 PM
...my previous advice was given his goals..."see whats its like to go 200, as stock as possible..."

thats why i said the dang busa...

if he is wanting to have the most fun and have a sense of accomplishment have
have a great journey....with some uniqueness...

then definately please dont get a busa....

ANY brand will do....
[/color]


LOL Dang Busas I know I know if thats all you are after the 200 mark it is probably the weapon of choice!
but if you want to get a bit more out of the experience any make any age any condition will do just being involved is sometimes enough!

Having a good time of it is the most important thing
Oz
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: saltwheels262 on October 21, 2010, 06:30:05 PM
i've got a 2000 zx12r for sale.

222 hp on a stingy dyno.

has done 218 mph @ loring.

$9k buys it . slim will get $100 out of it.


franey
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: MiltonP on October 21, 2010, 08:42:31 PM
Yep,  That would be Ducpond Motorsports, Donny's shop!  Hope you agree with my wanting to work with Donny and the gang there.
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: Dan Stokes on October 22, 2010, 11:46:06 AM
Going 200 is cool, for sure.  But who's having the most fun?  Probably Sam and her mighty Allstate - at about 72 MPH.  She and Rob (husband and wife - he runs a 750 Honda) are the poster couple for fun at Maxton.

The bike doesn't really matter - it's the attitude that counts.

Dan
Title: Re: Motorcycle choice for LSR?
Post by: RansomT on October 22, 2010, 12:27:54 PM
The primary reason that I went with the Busa to start off with was the fact there is a ton of go fast parts available.  After racing a Ford Taurus and modifying the heck out of it with self-made or one up parts, it's nice to be able to just order parts.  Of course my SHO was never fast ......  :-D