Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: robfrey on September 23, 2010, 09:12:28 PM
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Alright, here is Brandon and my project. Target of 400mph budget of under 50k plus my engine from Vinny.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Streamliner281iso.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Streamliner281top.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Streamliner281front.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Frontwheelsandsusp1.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Frontwheelsandsusp2.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/cockpitside.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/cockpitiso2.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/cockpitiso2.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Streamliner19isotransparent.jpg)
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This is going to be a marvelous project to follow as you build.
You certainly have stepped outside the normal aero package.
If you use a turbo we won't even be able to hear it as you swish past us.
For the shake down tests you could borrow my McCoy 35 engine?
It would probably go 150 MPH.
Thanks for revealing your project and good luck.
Welcome again.
FREUD
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NICE! May need more radius on the outside edges of the metal wheels. Rules are strict and you can't cut into the salt. Why did you eliminate triangulation on the bottom rails?
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Brandon has the right hue!
This will be a build to follow. Please share your thoughts on the wide rear track and wing surfaces.
Geo
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NICE! May need more radius on the outside edges of the metal wheels. Rules are strict and you can't cut into the salt. Why did you eliminate triangulation on the bottom rails?
Yes, we have been juggling the size of the radii on the outside edges of the wheels. The bigger the radius, the smaller the contact patch and the more it will press into the salt but smaller radii will probably leave a more pronounced mark.
I just started the cage design today so all bars are not in yet. Probably shouldn't have posted those cage pics yet.
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Brandon has the right hue!
This will be a build to follow. Please share your thoughts on the wide rear track and wing surfaces.
Geo
The large airfoil over the axle will make lots of very efficient downforce especially since it is in ground effect. The wide track adds much stability and lets us build the rear wing larger with very little angle of attack to keep it efficient.
Design intent was to minimize separation drag, stagnation drag, and wetted area. NACA 66-018 airfoil shape was used on the fuselage, rear wing, wheel pants, and front wheel skirt. Rear wheel pants will act as vertical stabilizers.
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Please tell me those are not metallic wheels in the rear. If they are please reconsider.
Tom G.
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Please tell me those are not metallic wheels in the rear. If they are please reconsider.
Tom G.
Not metallic, MT 28.5 Bonneville tires.
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Thanks, you had me worried for a second. Best of luck with the build.
Tom G.
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I like the shape but I think the driver should sit further back in the chassis
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This is going to be a marvelous project to follow as you build.
You certainly have stepped outside the normal aero package.
If you use a turbo we won't even be able to hear it as you swish past us.
For the shake down tests you could borrow my McCoy 35 engine?
It would probably go 150 MPH.
Thanks for revealing your project and good luck.
Welcome again.
FREUD
Thanks Freud. Coming from you, that means a lot to us.
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I like the shape but I think the driver should sit further back in the chassis
Me too but it was design compromise we have to live with to get this shape.
Good to hear from you Rick!
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Impressive!
PM sent.
Ed
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Thanks Ed.
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Impressive!
PM sent.
Ed
Ditto...very impressive, I like the wide stance and use of wings :cheers:
JL222
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Well O.K. I'll be the first to say it. That thing looks like it'll FLY!!!!! LOL I especially like the part where the legs straddle the front tires.
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I realize its early with the concept drawing and many things will appear in due time. I don’t see any filleting where the wings join the fuselage. This is a very controversial subject and many claim it “looks cool” with no speed gain. However, many aircraft sport a generous fillet at the wing-to-fuselage-interface. YMMV
What CAD tool are you using? Is the human figure and add-on or part of your CAD?
Many thanks for starting what will be a very interesting thread.
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Interesting design Rob . Have you considered using a drop tank as the main body to save time and money . 24" MTs would reduce frontal area .
John Burk
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Rob do you think Vinny is going to mind taking a back seat :?
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I realize its early with the concept drawing and many things will appear in due time. I don’t see any filleting where the wings join the fuselage. This is a very controversial subject and many claim it “looks cool” with no speed gain. However, many aircraft sport a generous fillet at the wing-to-fuselage-interface. YMMV
What CAD tool are you using? Is the human figure and add-on or part of your CAD?
Many thanks for starting what will be a very interesting thread.
Eric Alstrom aka Blue has helped us immensely (understatement) with this project and Eric says "no fillets".
We have been using Ashlar Cobalt for design work but are switching over to Solidworks. The outside shape is all Ashlar but the suspension and steering work is Solidworks. The driver is a shared file among solid works users (free). If you are interested I can get you the link or send it to you in the format of your choice.
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Interesting design Rob . Have you considered using a drop tank as the main body to save time and money . 24" MTs would reduce frontal area .
John Burk
Drop tank is not quite the right shape and size. Also, the body is not round as viewed from the front.
We are not concerned with frontal area or displacement, just the wetted area, separation drag, and stagnation drag.
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Rob do you think Vinny is going to mind taking a back seat :?
Vinny is just going to have to tough it out. It's going to kill me though to pull it all apart while it is not broke. LOL.
Vinny and I just won the last Flashlight Drags last week. We beat a back halved 66 Chevelle with a Big Duke headed 572BBC and a fogger to win the final!
It was great fun. First time we ever won one of those events. It's hard to win 1/8 mile drag races with non tubbed car on an unprepared surface.
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The selection of the NACA 66018 shape, in plan view, is a good choice and it happens to be the shape I am working with on my small lakester, (know wonder I like it!). What are your plans for the shape in the elevation (side) view as I see that the top and the bottom of the car appear to be different. I know that you are showing us the most preliminary views of your concept but don't forget to pay attention to the leadng and trailing junctions of the wings at both the main body and the wheel covers.
Your shape and your description of your project goals are certainly a step away from what has been the accepted streamliner design of late ( not counting the Specter car of course). With the sudden rash of cars going over 400 I would think that you would join that very elite group and my opinion (which is worth a cup of cheap coffee) is that it may be the car that requires the least HP to go 400.
Keep us posted!!
Rex
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We have been using Ashlar Cobalt for design work but are switching over to Solidworks. The outside shape is all Ashlar but the suspension and steering work is Solidworks. The driver is a shared file among solid works users (free). If you are interested I can get you the link or send it to you in the format of your choice.
Thanks Rob . . . PM sent.
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Rex,
Here is a side view of the latest design
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Streamliner28side.jpg)
Older design revision with wheel skirt removed.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Streamliner18aside.jpg)
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I missed the best part :-o the adjustable wing flaps :-P Will they adjust as you shift?
There's a lakester from the Carson City Navada area, that has had an adjustable wing for years and I'm surprised
that no one else has done it.
We would like to have an adjustable spoiler [with shifts] on the 222 camaro but haven't figured out how to do it.
Good luck with the build JL222
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The selection of the NACA 66018 shape, in plan view, is a good choice and it happens to be the shape I am working with on my small lakester, (know wonder I like it!). What are your plans for the shape in the elevation (side) view as I see that the top and the bottom of the car appear to be different. I know that you are showing us the most preliminary views of your concept but don't forget to pay attention to the leadng and trailing junctions of the wings at both the main body and the wheel covers.
Your shape and your description of your project goals are certainly a step away from what has been the accepted streamliner design of late ( not counting the Specter car of course). With the sudden rash of cars going over 400 I would think that you would join that very elite group and my opinion (which is worth a cup of cheap coffee) is that it may be the car that requires the least HP to go 400.
Keep us posted!!
Rex
Rex, the fuselage is a series of eight 66's rotated about a central plane. Then each of the foils scaled in thickness only (not in chord) for ground clearance, head clearance, differential fitment...
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I missed the best part :-o the adjustable wing flaps :-P Will they adjust as you shift?
There's a lakester from the Carson City Navada area, that has had an adjustable wing for years and I'm surprised
that no one else has done it.
We would like to have an adjustable spoiler [with shifts] on the 222 camaro but haven't figured out how to do it.
Good luck with the build JL222
The flaps will be spring loaded via air cylinder and accumulator tank. The faster it goes the more flap will level out. If it levels out too soon, we will add air pressure to the accumulator and if it never levels out, we will decrease air pressure. The idea is to get a constant down force whatever the speed. At least that is the plan now.
You could probably do the same with the Camaro.
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After reading the above I was cussing myself out for throwing this small accumulator tank I bought for my 94 Buick Riviera [tubo'ed lemon] that I never used for 15 yrs when cleaning out the shop last week. I thought I put it in the Recycle box that I take in but it wasn't there. So I was cussing about it and Linda went out and found it in another crate :roll:
I was sure that I put in the weekly recycle bin because the box I take in was full.
At the same time I was thinking about this ski bike that we won, same thing 15 yrs in the garage never used it
as soon as we gave it away it snowed 4 in on our long steep driveway, first time the snow stuck in 18 yrs.
JL222
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You know, I've been going though stuff lately and asking myself "what are the chances I'm ever going to need this or that?" Best way to answer that question is to throw it away. LOL. You"ll know within a week. LOL!
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Okay, I think I fixed a few problem by adding some bars and moving stuff around a little.
Did I miss any bars? Any help here from experienced cage builders would be appreciated.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/2cockpitiso.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/2cockpitisoback.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/2cockpitbottom.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/2cockpitside.jpg)
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You do have a rule book? Not enough clearance between the helmet and the bars. In addition padding has to be added. This is concept time so I don’t know how close the model is to reality. Could be you have enough clearance but I can’t see it.
I know why you have the tubing divots around the shoulders. But I don’t like it. Tubing that is bent has already gone beyond its yield point. Would be stronger if straighter but would mess up aero. Why no vertical at the knee joint? Yeah, its 3 triangles . . . just wondering.
Nice job of cleaning up the “finger” work on the model. :-D
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Rob,
I would add a diagonal from where the front main roll bar meets the top rail back to rear bar where it meets the second rail, I would also add diagonals to the bays between the second rail and the bottom rail. And remember to do the diagonals such that their center line intersects the center lines of all of the tubes that join at each node, this is called "eccentricity" in tube fabrication jargon and will have a tremendous effect on the strength of the structure. I would also add a vertical member between the top rail and the second rail where you have the two diagonals coming together but not quite meeting, this joint also should have good eccentricity. I would also add some diagonals to the structure behind the driver and would plate the main roll cage bars with 1/8 plate all over. This car is designed to go 400 mph it needs to be strong.
Interesting how you can blend the NACA shapes using your CAD system. Sure easier than my "Pencil CAD"! I have a chance to get a copy of Solid Works maybe I get it and give it a spin. What is the difficulty to learn it? I have lots of drafting board experience but have never done CAD.
I like your idea of using an accumulator for an air spring, which can give you a pretty constant spring rate if it is large enough. I think you may want to consider also adding some sort of dampener to the flap control system to provide some stability. Possibly a very small orifice in the line from the accumulator to the actuator may work.
I thought I could see some "Blue" influence!
Rex
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What Rex said about the accumulator and the dampening effect, make sure there is no flutter, this could cause problems. All air craft builders run flutter tests on control surfaces.
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Rex, check the local JC for CAD courses. Almost all of them have a Solidworks and AutoCad component. Could be a lot of fun.
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Rex,
Can any of the diagonals or bracing be smaller than 1-5/8 tubing? Weight is starting to be an issue. Target weight is much lighter than conventional designs although the front of the car is a good place to put it. On the lakester that Mike Cook built that I had at my place last year, I think I remember seeing some smaller bars. I really like your idea of a dampener on the flap. it should be easy enough to incorporate. I was thinking about .060 or .093 thick material for the outside skin. If I skin the whole thing do I still want to add all those braces? Should I skin it on the inside and leave this as my floor and inner panels?
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Rob,
What is your target weight?
Tom G.
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all tubing surrounding the driver (rider) needs to be 1 5/8... that means from back of helmet to tip of toes.... including diagonals... outside of that area you can change size and wall thickness.... read all of section 3.B.1
Kent
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The flaps will be spring loaded via air cylinder and accumulator tank. The faster it goes the more flap will level out. If it levels out too soon, we will add air pressure to the accumulator and if it never levels out, we will decrease air pressure. The idea is to get a constant down force whatever the speed. At least that is the plan now.
This is a very intriguing idea. But I need some help with this. It is my understanding that compressing air is nonlinear. However, drag, even though exponential, it is still linear. So as speed increases you have a linear force (the flap) reacting upon a nonlinear device (the accumulator) yet you want a constant down force. Sounds like an exercise in frustration. Don't get me wrong. This is not a criticism of the idea at all. I think it is refreshingly creative. I'm just trying to understand the fundamentals in order to judge its merits. As Rex mentioned, a large volume will tend to be less nonlinear. . . . is there such a thing? I'm wondering if that is the way to go? A spring's force is constant. And with CAD couldn't a linkage be designed that could exponentiate that force to exactly equal the force you want to react? I'm just throwing out ideas here. I've lost a few neurons over the years . . . but I'm still trying learn from y'all. :-D :-D
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I'm not even sure I want it perfectly linear. It's just an idea to get more down force at lower speed without getting too complicated.
Here are some more pics of the additional diagonals Not sure I got em all.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/3cockpitiso2.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/3cockpitiso1.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/3cockpitfrontview.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/3cockpitfrontview.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/3cockpitiso3.jpg)
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you may want to move the cross bar above the riders knees forward a couple of inches... it will help the driver entry and exit...
kent
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Kent,
Can I arc that bar up for additional clearance or does it have to remain straight?
BTW thanks for the help.
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Rob,
Do you still have your website? I cannot find it.
Tom G.
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Rob,
Your cage is really starting to take shape, I like the additional diagonals that you have added, if you are going to sheet the structure I think that I would do some inside the cage specifically where the driver is to provide him with a large surface area but if you decide to weld in the sheet I think that you could be making a car that is very hard to work on. I would still just sheet over just the roll structure over his head with 1/8 to make the gusset requirement and provide additional strength. Regarding the bar at he drivers knees you could easily make this a curved tube or even a tube with a double bevel bulkhead style structure then add additional diagonal bracing . Also regarding being able to work on the drivers area, the bracing that covers the top of the drivers area could be made to be bolted in. There are some very good methods of bolt together structures that use piloted spools and high grade bolts at can rival welding for strength and stiffness. There is a web site which has a thread on some off road trucks that were being built for the Herbst brothers that show methods of "bulk head" weld joints, I found it thru Landracing, I will try to see if I can dig it up as these trucks and their construction are truly the state of the art for welded tube structures. (It may be a challenge to get the SCTA inspectors to believe that a bulk head welded joint is stronger than a bent tube.)
Saltfever, thanks for the idea about looking for a CAD class at the local Jr College, I will be checking the Santa Rosa JC to see what they have.
Rex
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Rob:
Ref. Your reply #30 - Updated chassis tube layout
Your overall vehicle concept seems to be quite well conceived and mercifully would appear to be aero stable which is a significant advantage. However, since you are still in the early stages of frame/roll structure layout and are open to comments, here are a few more for your consideration.
1) Further to part of Saltfever’s reply #31, it appears that the roll structure is completely supported on kinked or curved sections of tubing. Such a structure is terribly less rigid and strong compared to one with straight legs. If I were an inspector, it would not be accepted on the basis of poor design. I assume the side tubing is kinked to accommodate the juncture of the “fuselage” and the canopy. You need to prevail upon Blue to allow a generous fillet, or better yet, a straight line tangent to the fuselage side and the canopy, so that the kinks can be eliminated. This may add marginally to the frontal area, but would also marginally reduce the wetted area and possibly complicated flow patterns at the existing joint between the two.
It is not clear why the two central rear tubes are curved down and forward instead of tying directly into the frame rails, but these, too, would support next to no load if called upon to do so. The priority should be to make a proper protective structure, not just make room for stuff behind the driver. P.S.-- having just looked at reply #39, the added bracing makes this situation is not as bad as in #31, but for reasons given in 2) below, it is still a concern.
2) The “three side rail” layout looks stout in the side view and is probably there to more closely conform to the rounded fuselage contour. However, as shown, the mid-height joint represents a severe Achille’s heel in the structure. The angled joint, with no ties across the frame to the other side, much less proper triangulation, constitutes another kink in the load path and is effectively a hinge between the top section and bottom section of the frame. (Try building a hexagon out of toothpicks or soda straws or something then load one side against the opposite and see what happens.) This arrangement would also probably produce rather soft torsional stiffness in the chassis. A speed wobble at 400 mph might be more exciting than necessary.
It would be better to just eliminate the middle rail, or leave it there as “side impact” protection, but for chassis structural integrity tie the top and bottom rails to each other with vertical and angled members, as well as across to the other side as is the classic approach.
3) Is there enough internal volume in the car to accommodate all the various ancilliaries that will be needed?
4) Just curious--how are the rear wheels tied to the main frame?
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Rob:
Ref. Your reply #30 - Updated chassis tube layout
Your overall vehicle concept seems to be quite well conceived and mercifully would appear to be aero stable which is a significant advantage. However, since you are still in the early stages of frame/roll structure layout and are open to comments, here are a few more for your consideration.
... You need to prevail upon Blue to allow a generous fillet, or better yet, a straight line tangent to the fuselage side and the canopy, so that the kinks can be eliminated. ...
Thanks for the advice, and it is being followed. After seeing the indirect load paths, I recommended we go to a more classical top fuel style cage. Specifically the later generation with the diagonal upper bracing from the shoulder area across the top of the steering wheel to the forward bulkhead. It also gives us easier entry and exit. The Fossett LSR assistant crew chief is a AA fuel licence holder and is helping with the re-design. I have a little bit of experience with truss structures and firmly believe that every good idea is worth copying:
http://www.bmeltd.com/Dragster/braced.html
vs.
http://www.bmeltd.com/Dragster/current.html
"mercifully" stable? Thanks, there some here that don't believe in the advantage of un-coupling the downforce and weight trade. Decades ago, it was thought that we needed weight for all that power. Remember "leading down" the front and rear? Then someone went light and went faster. Now we have weight minimums in almost every motorsport to keep the wanton use of carbon from making formula cars into feathers.
As far as the aero goes, we'll get a good cage design re-done and bump the aero to fit. While fillets are not preferred, the better course may be to simply increase the width of the canopy and possibly the "shoulder" lines of the OML (outer mold line). As Brandon points out, this is why the whole thing is in cad first. We appreciate all of the comments.
The earlier see-through rendering shows how everything fits, the biggest volume items are the coolant tanks for the engine and intercooler. Chute tubes are above the tranny, forward of the diff. The doors will be hinged at the front and open with a standard pull cable just like the flaps of a chute pack. The tubes are short and fat, easing packing and giving us a nice quick deployment. Pull point is inside the tube, so there's no exposed riser. All of this is oriented up and aft so that the chutes go into clean air, the risers don't crease the bodywork or chute tube lips, and they pull straight through the CG at the flying height of the chute.
The axle is tied to the wing section (since the wing can generate so much downforce, it has to be) and the wing loads the axle and wheel fairings. There's a lot of structure back there, it's mostly carbon. I'm putting plenty of design margin into these areas, since I'm the one fabricating the bodywork and aerostructures. If I can find the budget, I'm also building one for myself.
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I am not so sure that I would go away from the "hex section" concept for the driver area is a good idea. Yes it still needs some "tune up" related to eliminating some of the "indirect load paths" as Blue calls them and all of the tube bays need to be crossed with a diagonal but once this is done the hex shape is a pretty good representation of a thick wall tube of very large diameter. A structure similar to a top fuel car is a box and is strong in vertical bending and somewhat less strong in side bending and probably indeterminate across the corners. The hex design will be very strong regardless of what the load direction is. Obviously going with a box cross section will be certainly much easier to build but there are some potential advantages to the hex design. Looks like an FEA of the two structures should be ran.
Also regarding the "kink" that you have designed into the main roll cage structure, this joint can easily be made much stronger than a bend (which would be legal) by making this a bulk head joint.
Rex
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Looks cool, nice to see differant shapes being used on the streamliners. What are your estimates for the length and rear width? Tryin to learn what I can on the aero side of things, can you explain the reference to "fillets"? That's a hard word to google and get a reasonable answer :|
The CAD stuff is neat,do you expect to work out the bugs on the computer or will a scale model be made and also tested?
Good luck, this'll be a good one to watch.
:cheers:
Dan
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Eric, I looked at both links (thanks!) and they are vibration analysis, not structural FEA. I can easily see how the extra tubing has stiffened the problem area. That raises the natural frequency of the tubing and solves the vibration problem. Knowing how violent tire-shake is in Top fuel I can certainly see the need for the analysis. However, I thought the current discussion was about a stronger cage for Rob not vibration analysis. Are they just examples of some consulting you did for McKinney?
Some of the down force numbers I am seeing are significant. It might be useful to remember that LSR tires are load rated. I don’t know about the MT’s are but the Goodyears are 3,700 lbs each. 10,000 lbs of down-force plus the static car weight should be interesting.
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Eric, I looked at both links (thanks!) and they are vibration analysis, not structural FEA. I can easily see how the extra tubing has stiffened the problem area. That raises the natural frequency of the tubing and solves the vibration problem. Knowing how violent tire-shake is in Top fuel I can certainly see the need for the analysis. However, I thought the current discussion was about a stronger cage for Rob not vibration analysis. Are they just examples of some consulting you did for McKinney?
Some of the down force numbers I am seeing are significant. It might be useful to remember that LSR tires are load rated. I don’t know about the MT’s are but the Goodyears are 3,700 lbs each. 10,000 lbs of down-force plus the static car weight should be interesting.
The MTs are have no load rating. The information that we have received on the tires is that the centrifugal forces the tire is subject to at 7000+ RPMs is actually shedding the weight. There is an issue with heat buildup if you overload or from slipping (present in all tires) that needs to be taken into account, but no load rating.
I doubt very much that we will be close to approaching the 10k numbers, that was just a statement as to what could be made, not what we are expecting to need.
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Blue, (Eric)
"since I'm the one fabricating the bodywork and aerostructures. If I can find the budget, I'm also building one for myself. "
I see that your money is moving toward your mouth!!! Great to hear you are so involved with this project. I assume that you will be making a plug and then a mold so that you can make several of these.
Rex
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Rob,
Go to this web site to see some truly unbelievable tube structure weldments. http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31417
Rex
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Yes Rex, I've seen this before. There is some awesome weldments here.
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Good welds??? You vant to see good welds????
Look at Project 550's pics reeel close.
And, I was recently informed Jim Hume ain't the only awesum welder on the premises.
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Eric, I looked at both links (thanks!) and they are vibration analysis, not structural FEA. I can easily see how the extra tubing has stiffened the problem area. That raises the natural frequency of the tubing and solves the vibration problem. Knowing how violent tire-shake is in Top fuel I can certainly see the need for the analysis. However, I thought the current discussion was about a stronger cage for Rob not vibration analysis. Are they just examples of some consulting you did for McKinney?
Some of the down force numbers I am seeing are significant. It might be useful to remember that LSR tires are load rated. I don’t know about the MT’s are but the Goodyears are 3,700 lbs each. 10,000 lbs of down-force plus the static car weight should be interesting.
I did not consult on the project, it was just a convenient link. The lesson I drew from the design was more on the lines of load path from front corner to shoulder: the diagonally braced design was far superior to the "classic" design when we consider the worst case of an end-over-end flip and roll.
The biggest difference is in the use of a vertical rise and triangle above the knees. This provides for diagonals that transmit force from the front corners to the opposite shoulder bar without over-loading the cross bar. Coincidentally, changing from a cross bar arrangement to the diagonally braced design provides for easier entry/exit/rescue.
On the downforce, we are going to use whatever is necessary within the limits of the tires available. I expect the downforce to be only a few thousand pounds, equivalent to the ballast and weight we do not plan on carrying vs. other 400 mph cars. The downforce and weight required for traction is proportional to the drag, we have a low drag design, we expect to use less load on our tires than comparable streamliners with higher drag.
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Eric: I have been looking at your links again. That cage is kind of interesting. When you look at it there is a manifest difference in the structural bracing from the diagonal you mention and below. But the upper body and helmet area lacks complete triangulation. Also note the rear end attach points. I wondering if all of the structure we see is more there to react the 4-6G thrust from the launch than roll-over safety. The helmet area looks weak compared to what it is attached to. LSR doesn't have to worry about launch thrust and maybe some of what we see on the dragster cage is not needed for rollover protection since it is there for thrust reaction. The diagonal is obviously a good idea though.
Rob: I have heard that about centrifugal force on the tires but always wondered why Goodyear has a load limit. BTW, your 30" tire at 7,000 rpm is in the 625 mph range.
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Rob: I have heard that about centrifugal force on the tires but always wondered why Goodyear has a load limit. BTW, your 30" tire at 7,000 rpm is in the 625 mph range.
That for the front tire at 16" and it's faster than 7000 rpm
[/quote]
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Eric: I have been looking at your links again. That cage is kind of interesting. When you look at it there is a manifest difference in the structural bracing from the diagonal you mention and below. But the upper body and helmet area lacks complete triangulation. Also note the rear end attach points. I wondering if all of the structure we see is more there to react the 4-6G thrust from the launch than roll-over safety. The helmet area looks weak compared to what it is attached to. LSR doesn't have to worry about launch thrust and maybe some of what we see on the dragster cage is not needed for rollover protection since it is there for thrust reaction. The diagonal is obviously a good idea though.
All good points that I saw as issues too. I came up with a concept using the diagonals and adding two more direct cross members while fully triangulating the rollover area. Fewer tubes and much stronger, it also addresses the comments everyone has made to us so far. Rob's putting it in cad and we will post it for comment and more revisions. We need to make sure that all the tech people know exactly what we are doing and how we are doing it from a safety and rules compliance standpoint before metal is cut. As a former tech inspector, I always liked it when people fixed things before they got into line.
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Blue, Rob? . . . how are you comming with the latest CAD drawing?
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We might be back to the old drawing board. Not related to cage design.
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I'm anxious to see the changes Blue mentioned in his post #57. Good description but you know . . ." a picture is worth . . . " :-D
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We got some wise advice from current record holders that if it was at all possible, move the driver rearward so that he will have a better feel of what is happening. We were then able to go back to the Goodyear 2222 tire in the front. We have a lot of work to do cadwise but here are some pictures so far.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/StreamlinerR30isownocanards.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/StreamlinerR30side.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/StreamlinerR30backiso.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/StreamlinerR30top.jpg)
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How fast do you guys plan on running again? The Goodyear 2222 from what I understand is rated at 300mph, although we have had them higher. Also not sure how it would be for a front tire? Good luck with your build. :cheers:
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Sorry, wrong part number. I need the 450mph goodyears like the ones on the Speed Demon.
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Not talking smack but I am concerned about the COG/COP relationship with this configuration.
Ever consider vertical fins off the rear wheel covers (*similar in setup to a F15)?
-BTW:
Great job RF....
~JH
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-also, it may of been mentioned but what engine configuration is planned for the vehicle?
~JH
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..so johnny, where did you measure/calculate the cog.....?....and the cop....?....
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I think it is pretty easy to just look at Rob's drawings and you can tell that the CofG (center of gravity) is well in front of the CofP (center of pressure). The engine is going to probably be close behind the drivers cockpit and probably most of the liquids, water, oil, fuel will be ahead of the driver and with the big wheel "spats" the CofP is most certainly to the rear of the car.
Rex
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yes Rex, but i was curious what johnny was pondering...after reading his query...
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Actually, Jonny may have a point. Excuse my inept use of Word Draw but just threw this together. It would be great to have a nice CAD system (and the skill to use it) like Rob. Assume the CG is located as indicated. Now compare the amount of surface area in front of the CG compared to the surface area in back. CG and CP look very close. No way of telling exactly from here but Rob's CAD program can calculate the area exactly. CG/CP location might be worthwhile to look into. I have no way of knowing the CG location and it can be moved by relocating various mass as Rex mentioned. But those wheel covers do offer a good location if you have to add area to get the correct CP relationship.
PS: Enlarge the picture to see where I put the CG.
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salt fever....there is NO WAY they would allow the cog to be there....
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Do front inline wheels have a greater resistance to directional change than side by side :?
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CG and CP look very close.
I don't think so. There is a ton of area out back. Consider the area of the wheel covers (inside/outside) and the airfoils (top/bottom). Lots of surface there.
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OK, time to chime in. Yes, that CG estimate is pretty close. As JL222 and many other highly successful LSR racers have pointed out, it is good to have the weight as aft as you can stand it for traction. My job was to come up with a configuration that allowed a mid CG to be highly yaw stable. Al Teague and Craig Breedlove had done this with very similar configurations, so that's where I started. Far from this being some wild hair I pulled out of my a--, the configuration is based on actual, record setting, stable jet and wheel driven cars. We just moved the rear wheels out further than Al had them and moved the wing onto the rear axle.
The Cp (yaw neutral point) is located 3 to 4" aft of the leading edge of the rear wheel fairings. Three things that put the yaw neutral point father aft than expected from looking at the side view are (in order):
1. There are two tails. In the side view we only see one. For a back-of-the-napkin Cp, stack the second tail on top of the first one and then look at it.
2. Wing sections are neutral at their 25% chord point, while rounded objects (like the fuselage) are neutral further aft.
3. The Wheel fairings have span (vertical) and end-plate effect (the ground) that make their effective aspect ratio between 1.5 and 2. The fuselage has a lateral geometric (side view) aspect ratio of less than 1/10th of that and since it is rounded on the top and bottom and up off the ground it's contribution to yaw is only 2 to 3% of the effect of the wheel fairings.
The stability margin is 2 to 10X that of any of the current 400 mph club, and with the wing and adjustable flap we are looking for more than enough downforce on the rear wheels to exceed our available power. All of this comes with very little separation (exposed tire sections are about it), minimal wetted area, and lots of laminar flow. I'm not just designing it, I'm building the bodywork; so we'll see.
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All of this comes with very little separation (exposed tire sections are about it), minimal wetted area, and lots of laminar flow.
The exhaust outlet could be tricky; its likely going to have significant interaction with the airfoils. Also the configuration makes the parachute packaging and deployment challenging.
I won't ask about frontal area...
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note to self...never say never, or no way...
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Far from this being some wild hair I pulled out of my a--, the configuration is based on actual, record setting, stable jet and wheel driven cars. We just moved the rear wheels out further than Al had them and moved the wing onto the rear axle.
minimal wetted area,
pretty hilarious..... I'm supprised your research hasn't turned up thousands of lawsuites in regards to "tricycle" designed vehicle instability...... ever heard of the "screaming yellow zonker"? this looks lots like it.... howd dat one work out?...... maybe I'm simple but how does 2 huge wings and 2 huge wheel coverings add up to minimal wetted area?..... roll the crash trucks....
Kent
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Kent all this time I thought a screaming yellow zonker was pop corn now you say it's a 3 wheel motorcycle that don't handle. BTW missed seeing you at the WF's :-D
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So Kent, why you do you think this design would not be as stable as, Al's, Specter's, Higginbotham's? they are all tricycles?
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Good on ya Eric for getting involved hands on in this project. That way when it all shakes out you can be just like the rest of us and say "see I told ya so" or " back to the drawing board". Either way you'll get a lot of respect from most of us.
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The Harley Servicar was a trike too. We were warned to be really careful when we made turns with them since they flipped over with distressing frequency. Good thing the project is intended to go straight. By the way, the P38 originally did not have fillets at the wing/fuselage juncture but they were added later on for (I suppose) stability reasons. The spoilers added below the wing leading edge between the fuselage and the engines were to reduce compressibility problems when the P38 got close to supersonic in a dive. This is not advice.
Anyways, I wish the project success and I can't wait to see how the theoretical stuff works out. Even though empirical knowledge works most of the time. For example, Honeywell (formerly Garrett Corp, sort of) made turbochargers in WW II. An old timer from there told me that their design method was to run them until they broke and then make the broken part stronger. After a few years they were almost indestructible. Now they use computers, finite element analysis, PhDs in stress analysis and fluid flow and other tools and make them right almost from the start; leaving out most of the trial and error.
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1. There are two tails. In the side view we only see one. For a back-of-the-napkin Cp, stack the second tail on top of the first one and then look at it.
Be careful in your assumptions of the second wheel cover. CP is aerodynamic pressure. If your car yaws, one of the wheel covers is in the shadow of the other. It is highly probable that turbulence tumbling over and around one cover and the wing, will significantly reduce the aerodynamics of the other cover. The area of the second cover you are summing for a CP probably should be significantly reduced or, conservatively, maybe not be counted.
Blue, as I mentioned in another thread, I’m trying to understand your understanding of the CP. I have always used this simple method (see second paragraph) to determine CP. http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/rktcp.html
Please note it uses the projected (i.e., the flat plate) area of the part. However, from your posting above you consider the part’s shape to arrive at a modified area. For example, while I would consider the full area (as seen from the side) of the body you decrease “effective” area due to the rounded shape. Since we are concerned with dynamic pressure that makes sense. But do you see anything inherently unsafe with using projected area? All it would do is move the CG and CP farther apart, no?
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Saltfever , the average area method of finding the CP is true if the car is going sideways and the whole body has the same roundness . At a slight yaw the CP is much farther forward . By test , the CP of a scale model of my streamliner is at 38% . By the average area method it would be at about 66% .
John
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1. There are two tails. In the side view we only see one. For a back-of-the-napkin Cp, stack the second tail on top of the first one and then look at it.
Be careful in your assumptions of the second wheel cover. CP is aerodynamic pressure. If your car yaws, one of the wheel covers is in the shadow of the other. It is highly probable that turbulence tumbling over and around one cover and the wing, will significantly reduce the aerodynamics of the other cover. The area of the second cover you are summing for a CP probably should be significantly reduced or, conservatively, maybe not be counted.
Well, let's take a look at that: It would take 20 degrees or more of spin before the nose even comes into line with the "shadowed" tail and about 60 degrees before the the nose of the leading tail comes into line with the trailing edge of the "shadowed" tail. If it's gone around half of that I'll take John's advice and pull the chute!
Teague reported to his crew that he could only get a few degrees (single digits) out of line at high speed because of the stabilizing effect of the rear wheel fairings. If Kent wants to ignore Al's 30+ years of experience and success, who am I to argue?
Blue, as I mentioned in another thread, I’m trying to understand your understanding of the CP. I have always used this simple method (see second paragraph) to determine CP. http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/rktcp.html
Please note it uses the projected (i.e., the flat plate) area of the part. However, from your posting above you consider the part’s shape to arrive at a modified area. For example, while I would consider the full area (as seen from the side) of the body you decrease “effective” area due to the rounded shape. Since we are concerned with dynamic pressure that makes sense. But do you see anything inherently unsafe with using projected area? All it would do is move the CG and CP farther apart, no?
Yes, projected area is a radical over-simplification; especially for round bodies. Go to the next page where they start to talk about how stability analysis is done. At the bottom of the page is this:
<<When computing the stability of a rocket, we usually apply the aerodynamic forces at the aerodynamic center of airfoils and compute the center of pressure of the vehicle as an area-weighted average of the centers of the components. >>
Each component has to be analyzed separately for its individual contribution to stability. Why? The area of a fin creates a lift slope vs. angle of attack based on its shape, especially its aspect ratio (reference span squared divided by reference area). A tall fin (like Speed Demon) is 3 to 5 times as effective as the same area of a "blade" tail (like Nebulous). Multiply the lift-slope derivative by the length from CG (tail moment arm) and that is the stability contribution of that component.
Bodies (like most LSR, including this design) are more complicated and we usually chop them up into sections and calculate the effective lift-slope for each section, multiply that section by its area, then add all of this up. Pile it up on a spreadsheet and float the CG around until the sum of all of the lift slopes is zero and that's the yaw-neutral point, or, "Cp". This is called "second order" analysis, doesn't require any calculus, and is over 95% accurate for low to moderate yaw angles. Farther than that and we're pulling a chute anyway.
Sharp edges on the top or bottom of a body or fin increase the lift-slope, round edge decrease it. So the round top on Costella's designs improves the stability of the body forward of the CG and hurts it aft. Conversely, the sharp lower edge forward hurts the stability while it helps the tail. Jack has enough "effective" tail aft far enough in his designs to be stable. I'd like to see less sharp edges forward, we disagree, I still respect him.
For CAD simplicity, Rob has rounded the tip and bottom of the fins in the published figures. When I fab them, I'll be putting a specific shape on the top and bottom that has been proven in air racing to be much more effective than any other tip design to date. Far from taking credit for the 747, I actually adapted Boeing raked wingtip design rules to straight wing airplanes and we went faster. We modified 7 L-29's over the last two years and they go far faster on less power than our competition. Right now, I have modified 4 aircraft to go from the 300 mph class to the 400 and 3 more to go from the 400 to the 500 mph class. 3 of these unfortunately don't race, they are used as military targets in cruise missile and counter-air intercept simulation. Like LSR, it's the kind of thing that's only impressive to the people inside the field.
Next mod gets tested Monday, looking for another 30 mph on a 500 mph airplane. I'm 13 for 13 so far with 17 separate mods, making ever aircraft I touch faster with every mod I've made.
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So Kent, why you do you think this design would not be as stable as, Al's, Specter's, Higginbotham's? they are all tricycles?
A good question. ...........
If I want to build this and drive it, it's my life, not yours. .................
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Good on ya Eric for getting involved hands on in this project. That way when it all shakes out you can be just like the rest of us and say "see I told ya so" or " back to the drawing board". Either way you'll get a lot of respect from most of us.
That is about the best thing anyone has said to me. Yep, it's my butt and it will be in the driver's seat of my car; serial number 2 of the design. I'm clearing the space in my shop now and I'm building the table for the body molds. If it doesn't work, at least I will have tried something different.
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Saltfever , the average area method of finding the CP is true if the car is going sideways and the whole body has the same roundness . At a slight yaw the CP is much farther forward . By test , the CP of a scale model of my streamliner is at 38% . By the average area method it would be at about 66% .
John
Thanks, John. That is a big difference. When you use those percentages where is your datum . . . front or back. Is the CP 38% from the front or the back?
I usually scale a silloutte of the vehicle. Then suspend it on a string and then blow on it with a fan. I move the string (pivot point) backward or forward until the model is stationary and will no longer turn one way or the other. I then establish that as the CP. It has worked quite well but I am always open to improvement or new ideas. John, what is your test method?
Blue, . . . any comment on my test method?
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Eric,
A couple of questions regarding some of your statements:"40% of the body and 60% of the tails and wing are in laminar flow" Not knowing the complete dimensions of the car I am interested in what the Reynolds number is that you calculated at the transition from laminar to turbulent on the car body? I know that the 66018 section was specifically designed for long runs of laminar flow but at 400+ mph I didn't think it would be as far as 40% of the body length. If it is 40% please "dilute our ignorance" as to why? Is it a product of the 66018 shape?
Next I am wondering about the intersection of the wings to the body and also the wheel covers. Using my favorite reference, "The Leading Edge" by Goro Tamai, his research shows that a fillet along the intersection of a wing and body is actually a generator of drag inducing vortexs and the real important area is at the front and rear intersection points where a properly designed fillet can provides large benefits. Is this the area that you are planning to address related to the wing/body intersection?
Tomsmith mentioned the modification of the wing joint on the P38, I have a very old blue print of the P38 (before it was even called the P38, it is called "Lockheed Interceptor" on this drawing) and it did not have any fillet between the wing at either of the fuselages or the pilot's nacel and as I understand the first prototypes had extreme instability over the rear horizontal stabilizer from the vortex s being generated by the wing to body junctions. Added some fillets at the front and rear of the intersections and all was good.
Just one more thing, Eric you have been exceptionally reserve regarding the many negative comments from Kent, which I really admire as I am sure that you are very competent and certainly have a lot of pride in the projects that you have done, please don't drop to Kent's level of negative comments regarding your competence. This is a great thread regarding some new thinking in land speed car design it doesn't need to degenerate into a pi$$ing contest.
Keep up the replies I learn something new with every one.
Rex
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Yes, projected area is a radical over-simplification; . . . .When computing the stability of a rocket, we usually apply the aerodynamic forces at the aerodynamic center of airfoils and compute the center of pressure of the vehicle as an area-weighted average of the centers of the components. >>
Each component has to be analyzed separately for its individual contribution to stability. Why? The area of a fin creates a lift slope vs. angle of attack based on its shape, especially its aspect ratio (reference span squared divided by reference area).
Bodies (like most LSR, including this design) are more complicated and we usually chop them up into sections and calculate the effective lift-slope for each section, multiply that section by its area, then add all of this up. Pile it up on a spreadsheet and float the CG around until the sum of all of the lift slopes is zero and that's the yaw-neutral point, or, "Cp". This is called "second order" analysis, doesn't require any calculus, and is over 95% accurate for low to moderate yaw angles. Farther than that and we're pulling a chute anyway.
Eric thanks for getting back so quickly. I am leaving for a few days and will work out some scenarios when I get back. I have a few more questions but think they should be public rather than PM. The educational aspect of the forum is too important to bury it in PM.
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Yeah, what Rex said 2x.
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Blue, your car is different then the current crop of 400 mph contenders but I seem to recall that Craig Breedlove Built a similar car that was going to run an AMC engine. I don't think the front wheels were in line but just inches apart. They definitely had the aero cover over the tires which were outside the body with the wing over the axle. I just seem to remember that he had some success and ran over 3 hundred. As I recall this build coinsided with a time when the SCTA banned jet cars from Bonneville. Do I have that right, does anyone else remember this car? I think it was AMC red white and BLUE. lol Tom Burkland told me that after the car gets up in that 250 mph area (referring to my car Saltosaurus) the shape of the car over comes course conditions and slight wind and it goes straight with out a lot of weather vane effect. I just don't see your design being less successful then the hugh diversity of high speed designs running currently.
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Blue, . . . any comment on my test method?
Very good, even better would be to tie the string on it and swing it around you and work it out to 10 to 15' of line. This gets it into much straighter air and gets the speed up well above a fan. I spent hours doing this with model rockets when I was kid. No BS, I admire anyone who tests.
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Saltfever , the CP of the model of my streamliner is 38% from the nose .
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Blue, your car is different then the current crop of 400 mph contenders but I seem to recall that Craig Breedlove Built a similar car that was going to run an AMC engine. I don't think the front wheels were in line but just inches apart. They definitely had the aero cover over the tires which were outside the body with the wing over the axle. I just seem to remember that he had some success and ran over 3 hundred. As I recall this build coinsided with a time when the SCTA banned jet cars from Bonneville. Do I have that right, does anyone else remember this car? I think it was AMC red white and BLUE. lol Tom Burkland told me that after the car gets up in that 250 mph area (referring to my car Saltosaurus) the shape of the car over comes course conditions and slight wind and it goes straight with out a lot of weather vane effect. I just don't see your design being less successful then the hugh diversity of high speed designs running currently.
George, it was called the SOA Rocket Dragster, you remember it correctly. It never ran with the AMC engine because a Craig's shop was flooded and the engines were ruined. when AMC said they wouldn't replace the engines, he dropped in a solid rocket motor and ran it up well over 300 on a few seconds of burn time.
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Rex,
1. It's 60% of length where there is nothing to trip the boundary layer. The front wheel assembly and canopy joints do this and create wakes that are no longer laminar, so the overall area of the fuselage under laminar effect is 40 to 45%. This compares to 2 to 7% for most straight-sided and flat-bottom liners.
2. Yes.
3. The P-38 tail buffet and Mach-tuck issues were separate and involved many fixes combined. For reference, read Kelly Johnson's autobiography: "More Than My Share of it ALL"
4. Done. I respect honest criticism, look at how we responded to the roll cage comments (well, don't look yet; we still have to post our revisions for more comment!). People who like or don't like what we are doing honestly taking the time to analyze a concern and make an intelligent and reasoned recommendation are always appreciated.
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Blue, your car is different then the current crop of 400 mph contenders but I seem to recall that Craig Breedlove Built a similar car that was going to run an AMC engine. I don't think the front wheels were in line but just inches apart. They definitely had the aero cover over the tires which were outside the body with the wing over the axle. I just seem to remember that he had some success and ran over 3 hundred. As I recall this build coinsided with a time when the SCTA banned jet cars from Bonneville. Do I have that right, does anyone else remember this car? I think it was AMC red white and BLUE. lol Tom Burkland told me that after the car gets up in that 250 mph area (referring to my car Saltosaurus) the shape of the car over comes course conditions and slight wind and it goes straight with out a lot of weather vane effect. I just don't see your design being less successful then the hugh diversity of high speed designs running currently.
Just one clarification: While I have had significant input on the aerodynamics and configuration of this design, the driving forces are Rob Freyvogle and Brandon Barn. It has turned out so well that I want one of my own.
Craig's third SOA (the first was the 525 mph jet car that went in the water, the second was Sonic 1 that went 600) was indeed a WD-LSR vehicle that was designed to capture a series of records at different displacements using AMC engines. Brandon's right, the shop flooded and the car was retrofitted with a storable liquid, bi-propellant rocket motor surplussed from the Apollo Lunar Module lower stage (Nitrogen tetroxide and Di-methyl Hydrazine). It scared the heck out of Craig, but it was quite effective and Craig still holds the 1/4 mile trap speed record with it at 374 mph.
It was dead-nuts-stable.
It did have a single front wheel, which made it a trike for rules purposes and it would have had to have a forth wheel added to comply with current SCTA, BNI, or FIA rules. It would qualify as a trike under current FIM rules. It also had an open cockpit, which must have been REALLY something at nearly 400 mph!
The NACA 66 Special (we're working on a name...) has a more conventional tandem front wheel setup like Speed Demon, Costella, and many others. Rob has studied those well-proven designs and is designing the front suspension with review of other suspension experts.
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Btw Eric, I appreciate you fielding all these questions. It's working out quite well. It lets me continue to focus on the details.
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Latest renderings.
I will probably scooch the driver and canopy forward about a foot and add one water tank for engine coolant behind the driver. The intercooler water may fit under the drivers legs.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/R31iso10.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/R31semitop.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/R31side10.jpg)
Should have plenty of room in the cockpit for the cup holder and navigation system.
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Don't forget the Bluetooth and ipod :)
Looking forward to seeing this one built, new ideas and directions are what part of this addiction is all about, the other being, leave a roadster a roadster.
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Nice CAD work Rob. Looks real nice. Still using Cobalt?
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Rob,
That is beautiful!!! Now you have the package you will have to get all of the "stuff" to fit without screwing up the shape.
Rex
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Nice CAD work Rob. Looks real nice. Still using Cobalt?
No. switched to solidworks. It's been very painful.
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Nice CAD work Rob. Looks real nice. Still using Cobalt?
No. switched to solidworks. It's been very painful.
I'm sure, after being spoiled with Cobalt. Looks great!
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Thanks! Solidworks does such a better job with assemblies. That is where the real benefit seems to be. Also their forum is really great.
With Cobalt, the solid is easier to generate (my opinion). Maybe I will say differently in a few year.
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Tech question. Right now I am planning to build the water tank to hold 48 gallons icewater for the engine coolant. The engine that we will be eventually running will make about 2600hp on gasoline. Is this going to be enough? Would like water temps to no more than 200f at the end of the run. I'm imagining that we will only be averaging 1700hp through the course of the 5 mile run. We will start off with icewater (90% ice or whatever we can get). Water will recirculate in the block and heads until it hits 150f then off to the marine heat exchangers in the tank.
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Tech question. Right now I am planning to build the water tank to hold 48 gallons icewater for the engine coolant. The engine that we will be eventually running will make about 2600hp on gasoline. Is this going to be enough? Would like water temps to no more than 200f at the end of the run. I'm imagining that we will only be averaging 1700hp through the course of the 5 mile run. We will start off with icewater (90% ice or whatever we can get). Water will recirculate in the block and heads until it hits 150f then off to the marine heat exchangers in the tank.
Rob we only have a 28 gal water tank in the 222 car and never run it full, temps never get to 200 degrees and we don't have exchangers or run ice water.
JL222
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For a 1 minute long run 48 gallons might be over kill. There is a 700hp gas lakester that uses a 5 gal. Jeep can.
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This has been covered before. Here is a good thread that explains it well. Note my post #19 indicates you do not have to consider all the HP because most the heat is wasted and flushed out the exhaust pipe. There are other losses that do not go into the cooling water also. Eric has done specific heat calcs on other threads regarding intercooling and would probably love to do the calcs for you. :wink:
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5314.msg74820.html#msg74820 (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5314.msg74820.html#msg74820)
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There are so many variables to this equation that I feel we can't accurately fill in that i feel much better going by experience or someone else's experience then back up our decision with the math. Engine Analyzer Pro 3.9 says that engine is about 30% thermal efficiency.
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There are so many variables to this equation that I feel we can't accurately fill in that i feel much better going by experience or someone else's experience then back up our decision with the math. Engine Analyzer Pro 3.9 says that engine is about 30% thermal efficiency.
The biggest levers on this are the compression ratio (high compression puts more energy in the exhaust and less in the block for a given power level), and the shielding/cooling of the exhaust. If it's well shielded, it takes little cooling air flow to prevent the radiant heat from soaking the engine compartment.
30 Gallons is probably more than enough.
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A thermostat allows a smaller tank . Warming the engine up to the thermostat temp. doesn't warm the water in the tank .
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John is right about using a thermostat, standard thermostats hold the water in the block until the thermostat setting is reached, there is a thermostat from BMW that is a three way configuration and it recirculates the block water until its setting is reached and then it opens to the cooling source. The advantage is that with a standard thermostat the water around the exhaust valves can be a lot hotter than the water at the thermostat before it opens, the three way style assures water circulation through the complete engine and reduces hot spots. Just a thought.
Rex
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Using the recently updated/corrected expressions cited in the link above, and Rob’s 1700 average horsepower, To=200F, Ti=90F and a run duration of 1.3 minutes, results are a coolant flow of 26 gpm and a reservoir volume of 34 gallons. Seems to be in general agreement with other’s experience.
Also, in line with Blue’s “do your own testing” principle, experience has shown that pump sellers, particularly those that offer pretty, anodized, hot-rod pumps are notorious liars as regards the performance of their pumps. They often can’t flow what is stated even against zero backpressure. Remote reservoirs with possibly long piping runs and fittings are going to have suction and headloss issues.
The latest CAD results look very sleek, but like Rex, I still worry about getting everything tucked inside. Maybe it is bigger than it looks! Hope you carry on the CAD work to include most of the ridiculous amount of stuff that is needed.
Also, a 400 mph run is pretty much a drag race, and the tail doesn’t look too push-truck friendly. How is it going to get off the line? Done any vehicle performance simulation yet? Driveline plans?
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(edit . . . ) there is a thermostat from BMW that is a three way configuration and it recirculates the block water until its setting is reached and then it opens to the cooling source. Rex
Great information Rex, and thanks. :-) Make, model, or p/n?
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"those that offer pretty, anodized, hot-rod pumps are notorious liars as regards the performance of their pumps. They often can't flow what is stated even against zero backpressure."
Defiantly don't believe advertised GPM flows. I have tested every pump I have run first and only one met it's 20 gpm and that was a Jabsco brass centrifugal and it was 22. The pump was below the tank and fed with a 1" line in and a -16 out, no restrictions, even the shut off valve is a true 1". All the ones advertising over 30 could not meet 20. Only the Meziere remote did what I felt I needed at over 35 and it was rated at 55. I have also drilled out all of the fittings to the max.........Good Luck....JD
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I just love this sight, you get such excellent info. Stuff that's not available anywhere else in the known universe. Thanks to all that contribute. Especially KENT and FREUD!!!!! I love to laugh.
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Saltfever,
Go to this web site,http://www.bavauto.com/se1.asp?dept_id=320, and look at the thermostats for the 2002 thur 318/320. They cost about $20.
Rex
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John is right about using a thermostat, standard thermostats hold the water in the block until the thermostat setting is reached, there is a thermostat from BMW that is a three way configuration and it recirculates the block water until its setting is reached and then it opens to the cooling source. The advantage is that with a standard thermostat the water around the exhaust valves can be a lot hotter than the water at the thermostat before it opens, the three way style assures water circulation through the complete engine and reduces hot spots. Just a thought.
Rex
Rex, Can you give us more info on this three way thermostat. We have built our own using two connect opposed thermostats with one of the springs removed in the past to keep recirculation speed up in the block but if we could buy a more professional unit, that would be great.
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Rob,
See my last reply it has a web site with the thermostat info. You may want to consider going with a pair of these as I would expect that you are going to have some pretty high flow rates for the water. If you want an extremely good engine water pump contact Stu Van Dyne, Van Dyne Engineering, 714-847-4417. Stu has a water pump based upon the Offy engine design that I am sure will provide sufficient water for your big turbo motor.
Rex
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We run a Van Dyne water pump on our dirt car and are very satisfied. Charlie Reno runs a remote (belt drive) on his 1471 blown big Chev and it works................Good Luck
Van Dyne is also one of our advertisers..................
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Doesn't Sparky have a radiator inside of a large tank on his lakester, seems it was discussed on this site a while back.
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the three way style assures water circulation through the complete engine and reduces hot spots. Just a thought.
Rex, Can you give us more info on this three way thermostat.
Rex, many thanks for the information. I just ordered a couple of them. Sure appreciate all the value you add to this forum. :-)
Rob: Had a bit of trouble with their web site. You can drill down to the year but not the model Rex suggested. A phone call cleared up the problem. The sales desk says it is a 3-way used in 4 cylinder blocks for US models in 2002. Since its a 4 cylinder I'm sure the diameters are rather small and as Rex suggested, two each might be wise.
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Engines with conventional thermostats have a 2 loop circuit . A small hole back to the pump inlet so warm water circulates to open the thermostat and the main circuit to the radiator . The lost cooling from 10%? bypassing the radiator doesn't hurt if the pump is big enough .
John
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Doesn't Sparky have a radiator inside of a large tank on his lakester, seems it was discussed on this site a while back.
Yes, I believe that is the way Sparky did his. We did the same with the Lindberg lakester. It seemed to work really well but I'm not sure if water qty was sufficient as the driver never got the car past 60% throttle. Sure didn't seem to take long to get that water plenty hot. Never got any data on it though as we were having data logging problems and without data, well you know what Mr. LeFever says.
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Doesn't Sparky have a radiator inside of a large tank on his lakester, seems it was discussed on this site a while back.
yes, there is no foreseeable end to his cunningness.......I believe he does it so the bulk of the coolant is not pressurized
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Not to take this subject too far off topic, yes Sparky runs a radiator in a box. So do I, and yes it's so I can keep the engine cooling system pressurised. We run a small amount of water in the box at El Mirage & more at Bonneville. Even less water when it's real cold at El Mirage. We also have a small electric pump to circulate the water in the box if needed like at Bonneville. And if you look close in the open box picture you can see a small .375 i.d. tube with holes in it to spray water on the radiator if needed too.
Here are a couple pictures....
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Mike,
Its not off subject at all. Thanks for the post.
Couple of questions.
What is the most water you have run on this car? Was it icewater or just ambient? Same question about the Firebird again, how much water?
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Rob,
We run water (for now) on this car. For El Mirage we fill it about half way, and for Bonneville we fill it more. On all the turbo cars he has done he has run ice water intercooler. The firebirds was quite a bit bigger than the one that we have in the modified roadster. (again, I don't remember how many gallons) Hopefully my Dad will chime in here with the number of gallons. I hope this helps a little until then. :cheers:
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Does anybody make a joint like this for 1-5/8 tubing? We need to take off the top part of our chassis over the engine and turbos to be able to remove and service them.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/1625tubingjointassy.jpg)
I will make them if I have to but do not want to reinvent the wheel.
This joint features a 5/8 screw in double shear. I was going to make a batch on the cnc mill if nobody else makes them.
If by chance nobody makes them and I have have to run a batch off does anybody else need a few joint / couplers? Hate to set up to make just four sets. I also have to make some 1-1/4 size joints with 1/2 screws in double shear. If anybody else wants them, I promise I won't mark them up at all, just whatever my cost is.
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You should check these out.
http://www.camburg.com/products/fabrication/tube-clamps/
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Josh,
Thanks a million! That is exactly what I'm looking for!
I will call them immediately.
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Sorry I have not posted any pics for a while. Many parts have been in a state of flux and just now are we starting to lock in the design of some parts. Converting over to solidworks has really slowed thing up but at least it doesn't crash and go corrupt.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/CAGE201102035.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/CAGE201102034.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/CAGE201102032.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/rearendmounting1.png)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/headersinstalled.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/leftheader1.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Mobil1a.jpg)
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Not sure just why, but upon viewing the above renderings I have a serious desire to go out and buy some Sreaming Yellow Zonkers and toss my Old Spice in the trash and pick up some English Leather????
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Rob,
Your Solid Works renderings are sure beautiful and inspiring. Certainly different than my H lead scratchings on some velum that I am doing for my lakester, but we are using pretty much the same shape, NACA 66018 and you have done a couple of things that will probably generate some eraser "swarf" on my drawing tomorrow. What is your design diameter for the main body? looks around 30 inches which would make the length around 166 inches. Keep posting as your car is certainly going to be something to see.
Rex
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Wondering how ya'll figure out the distance between body and rear wheel location and width of the rear envelope. Surface area on the "wing" is what I'm leaning towards but not sure. Is their a major change if they were to be pulled in say a foot or so? Lookin good, glad to see you landed a small sponsor also, :cheers:
Dan
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Rob, We used those weld in fitting we reworked the Lakester by installing removable top bars over the eng bay---make sure the car is up to WEIGHT before you weld them and they may still need to be spread or compressed before you can get them to go. we cut and rewelded them so that when we stepped on the frame we could get them to align.. all and all LOVED how it stiffened the car..
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Damn nice fittings, bookmarked the link. That CAD work is sexy as well!~
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Not sure just why, but upon viewing the above renderings I have a serious desire to go out and buy some Sreaming Yellow Zonkers and toss my Old Spice in the trash and pick up some English Leather????
???
Can I get a translation?
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Rob I am not an engineer but those upper tubes seem to need a couple of K s in them to me.. :-D
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I think :-o he said it gives him a WOODY :-o
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IB understands.....
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:-o I guess that just goes to prove there is very few things that are new under the sun :cheers:
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Wondering how ya'll figure out the distance between body and rear wheel location and width of the rear envelope. Surface area on the "wing" is what I'm leaning towards but not sure. Is their a major change if they were to be pulled in say a foot or so? Lookin good, glad to see you landed a small sponsor also, :cheers:
Dan
I think we are about 23 sq ft on the wing area. 3 degee angle of attack. Again, NACA 66-018 on the rear wing also. The wing will also be in ground effect and should double its effectiveness. We hope to average 3000 lbs of downforce from 175 -400 using the flap.
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IB understands.....
And before that:
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc262/jmuttland/100_1787.jpg)
You guys puttin' an American Motors V8 in it??? Maybe Rich would loan you his Packard :cheers:
Mike
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You guys are right. There is nothin new under the sun. Our car is just a refinement of what has already been built.
My father in law is 76 and he's says the only real new thing is the electronic solenoid style injection.
Double overhead valves, planetary transmissions, hemi style chambers. These thing go back to at least the twenty's.
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Rob I am not an engineer but those upper tubes seem to need a couple of K s in them to me.. :-D
Yes, that part is not done yet.
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Rob, We used those weld in fitting we reworked the Lakester by installing removable top bars over the eng bay---make sure the car is up to WEIGHT before you weld them and they may still need to be spread or compressed before you can get them to go. we cut and rewelded them so that when we stepped on the frame we could get them to align.. all and all LOVED how it stiffened the car..
Yes, we planned on doing the same thing. Great minds think alike? LOL.
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Not sure just why, but upon viewing the above renderings I have a serious desire to go out and buy some Sreaming Yellow Zonkers and toss my Old Spice in the trash and pick up some English Leather????
I was aware of the english leather sponsorship but the screamin yellow zonker sponsorship was news to me.
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Rob,
Your Solid Works renderings are sure beautiful and inspiring. Certainly different than my H lead scratchings on some velum that I am doing for my lakester, but we are using pretty much the same shape, NACA 66018 and you have done a couple of things that will probably generate some eraser "swarf" on my drawing tomorrow. What is your design diameter for the main body? looks around 30 inches which would make the length around 166 inches. Keep posting as your car is certainly going to be something to see.
Rex
Rex,
I'm flattered. To explain a little more about the fuselage shape, the shape is a loft made from 8 splines. The splines are different on the top vs bottom vs sides to generate the shape that you see here. They are all different percentages of thickness compared to length (with the length all being the same). The thinner bottom splines let us put a little rake into the shape and keep the nose lower. If they just made a taller rear tire, it would help a lot of design problems.
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GOODYEAR may have a 32" coming
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Rob, I suspect that much of the time since your previous drawing postings has been consumed in the CAD conversion, and that not all that much real design progress has been made--although clearly some has. With that in mind, much of the unsolicited comments below are probably wildly premature but, for what they’re worth:
Structural
Cockpit looks inaccessible--better dummy up a prototype and try getting in and out of it with helmet, firesuit, Hans, gloves, shoes, belts etc. before freezing the design.
Peculiar locations for some braces in the cockpit area.
The CAD model of the frame may give you a file easily accepted by a finite element program--suggest you make use of it, particularly the sections aft of the driver. Looks pretty scary right now. Especially with the upper rails removed.
Frame rail splices--it would be good to verify that the joint mechanisms will, in fact, carry the loads that are expected and be sufficiently rigid and vibration resistant. (That means test results, not just someone saying so). You may want to consider bolted flanges if there is doubt--if they were good enough for Al Teague...
Rear axle bending load reinforcement, as depicted, is completely inadequate. Need to tie one side directly to the other across the top and bottom of the differential housing. See off-road pickup truck type arrangements, or better.
Plumbing
Waste gates?
Intercooler looks to be the classic “too much core depth” and “not enough frontal area” to be particularly efficient.
Consider mounting the turbo(s) lower and more central with a horizontal “updraft” intercooler above them with airflow then exiting directly rearward into the intake plenum. Eliminates a lot of tubing, turns, and heat rejection, and can have more frontal area for the cooler.
Systems
Front wheels to be shrouded or is the area (and any components) in front of foot plate allowed to accumulate salt?
Room in cockpit for pedals, steering gear, fire bottles etc?
Battery over bell housing may not like the heat and vibration and obstructs access to clutch and transmission.
Brakes? On rear wheels or driveline? What kind of differential? Are the flaps going to be absolutely coordinated with each other so as to avoid creating a turning moment? Each of these components could produce a steering bias and since the amount of “side bite” the solid front wheels may have is rather speculative, they bear a good deal of consideration. (Costella rear track is very narrow and has no flaps). Note what, dollars-to-doughnuts, is a steerable front rudder on the American Motors liner pictured previously.
Looking forward to future updates!
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3000lbs of down force from those wings..... WOW..... think about that...... and what do ya think static weight is gonna be?
kent
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IO It "appears to me that the two turbos blow thru from the out sid to a colecter in the midddle and the bring the cooler air UNDER the turbos I think he is trying to stay away form convective heat
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3000lbs of down force from those wings..... WOW..... think about that...... and what do ya think static weight is gonna be?
kent
3500lb
center of gravity will be just a few inches in front of the turbo compressors.
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Rob, I suspect that much of the time since your previous drawing postings has been consumed in the CAD conversion, and that not all that much real design progress has been made--although clearly some has. With that in mind, much of the unsolicited comments below are probably wildly premature but, for what they’re worth:
Structural
Cockpit looks inaccessible--better dummy up a prototype and try getting in and out of it with helmet, firesuit, Hans, gloves, shoes, belts etc. before freezing the design.
Peculiar locations for some braces in the cockpit area.
The CAD model of the frame may give you a file easily accepted by a finite element program--suggest you make use of it, particularly the sections aft of the driver. Looks pretty scary right now. Especially with the upper rails removed.
Frame rail splices--it would be good to verify that the joint mechanisms will, in fact, carry the loads that are expected and be sufficiently rigid and vibration resistant. (That means test results, not just someone saying so). You may want to consider bolted flanges if there is doubt--if they were good enough for Al Teague...
Rear axle bending load reinforcement, as depicted, is completely inadequate. Need to tie one side directly to the other across the top and bottom of the differential housing. See off-road pickup truck type arrangements, or better.
Plumbing
Waste gates?
Intercooler looks to be the classic “too much core depth” and “not enough frontal area” to be particularly efficient.
Consider mounting the turbo(s) lower and more central with a horizontal “updraft” intercooler above them with airflow then exiting directly rearward into the intake plenum. Eliminates a lot of tubing, turns, and heat rejection, and can have more frontal area for the cooler.
Systems
Front wheels to be shrouded or is the area (and any components) in front of foot plate allowed to accumulate salt?
Room in cockpit for pedals, steering gear, fire bottles etc?
Battery over bell housing may not like the heat and vibration and obstructs access to clutch and transmission.
Brakes? On rear wheels or driveline? What kind of differential? Are the flaps going to be absolutely coordinated with each other so as to avoid creating a turning moment? Each of these components could produce a steering bias and since the amount of “side bite” the solid front wheels may have is rather speculative, they bear a good deal of consideration. (Costella rear track is very narrow and has no flaps). Note what, dollars-to-doughnuts, is a steerable front rudder on the American Motors liner pictured previously.
Looking forward to future updates!
You missed a bunch of other problems.
Please list one or two at time please.
Bracing across the rearend is nonexistent YET. I need to have the rear in my possession to finish the design and tie the bracing together. No sense in drawing a dream brace right now. The bracing will tie into the side bolt bells of the Winter Extremeliner rear. We plan on keeping the flaps independently controllable so that if the car decides to take off, we can fly it back to the salt safely.
BTW, we have build a dummy cockpit from pvc and its no problem to get in and out but thanks for your concern.
You seem to know a lot about intercoolers. Where did you get this experience. I did have the intercooler installed like you are recommending but this actually worked out better. Don't you worry about that battery. I can remove it and the mount if I have to service the clutch. I got an awesome set of tools.
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Rob, just don't do like I saw Eddie Hill do one time and "FLY" the clocks!! :cheers: :cheers:
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Rob,
From your reply to "Interested Observer" do I understand that you are planning to use an air to air intercooler?? I hope that is NOT your plan, the ducting alone will be a night mare and the additional drag is certainly not needed. The differential temperature that is possible with an air to liquid intercooler is so much higher which means lower intake temp which equals more horse power and you have no additional aero drag. The ducting for an efficient air to air intercooler is sized to work most efficiently at a certain speed and at any speed above or below that speed it can become pretty inefficient, a good air to liquid intercooler works at all speeds without any aero drag.
Rex
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Rex, No we will be using an air to very cold icewater style cooler. I think IB was just referring to the placement of mounting.
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Interested Observer, sorry for the sarcastic remarks. Long day yesterday. I know you are just trying to help.
The intercooler design that I have chosen does have less frontal area than the 3000 and 4000hp units but keeps the air next to cold fins longer. Testing by Robert of Chisled Performance has shown this to be the superior design for long pulls like LSR vs the short pulls of drag racing. We had him build us a double 3K unit for the lakester that really worked well. The unit shown in the renderings is a double 2500hp unit. He has built these before with excellent results. The trick to making these units work well is to exchange the water very quickly.
This is my last post for the next couple months or maybe we will just see you guys on the salt. When I'm a postin, I'm not a buildin.
If you wondering, I won't be postin on anybody else's thread either. I don't feel right sharing my opinion yet until I have actually accomplished something notable.
Again, I'll see you on the salt.
PS, for those who I have made friends with and want to stay up to date, send me an email and I will add your address to our newsletter.
Thanks all!
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You should check these out.
http://www.camburg.com/products/fabrication/tube-clamps/
Guys, regarding these couplers. These are geared more towards less stressed members, the guys that developed them use them for mount stuff to their trucks not necessarily highly stressed applications. These have threads in one side of the coupler and a countersink for a socket head alan in the other side so the load path through the bolt is not ideal. If you needed something for a high load application I would suggest machining some similar couplers with no threads or coutersinks just a simple hole so when the parts are mated a couple AN bolts are used for fastening. If you do the design right a single coupler design can be used for both sides.
Rob – I suggested these because they’re better then the clevis style couplers you where thinking of. If you going to use such a coupler in the curved upper frame member the curve could permanently capture the removable member - clocking and quality notches of adjecent memebers is key.
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Rob,
I agree that the design, particularly the aft sections, is still in a somewhat primitive state. That’s why I said the comments were probably premature. The comments are just thoughts tossed out for your consideration. Don’t feel that there is necessarily a need for you to respond, refute, or clarify unless you care to do so, or feel it would be helpful to the “audience”.
Good to hear the cockpit has been deemed functional.
The battery was sort of a nit pick anyway.
Do the “Winter Extremeliner” people have a website or information on the nature of their rearend? If you are fabbing the axle housings, that would be an opportunity to make them strong enough on their own that other reinforcement may not be needed and allow installation of strain gauges to supply Blue’s wheel load information.
Intercooler - If you are already constrained to use the blocky, double depth configuration shown in the drawings, yes, you probably have it in an optimum location. What I tried to describe is something with a different configuration of the heat exchanger and some plumbing advantages. While the Chisled unit may be adequate, it is a fundamental truth in air/water heat exchanger design that it is more efficient for heat transfer for given volume of core to spread it out on frontal area and minimize the depth. Look at the radiator in any car--it’s not that way just to keep the car short.
You are correct that careful control of the water flow pattern can be important.
However, in this case, I guess it is water under the bridge.
See ya when you reappear..
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Rob--If you are still here---DeNunzio Fabrications makes another kind of Keyed Coupler that might be better. They build Unlimited Off Road trucks and such, and have a piece that looks plenty trick....
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Rob--If you are still here---DeNunzio Fabrications makes another kind of Keyed Coupler that might be better. They build Unlimited Off Road trucks and such, and have a piece that looks plenty trick....
Thanks Kiwi Paul! I will definitely check into them
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I am also ready to buy rear tires (MT 9 x 30) and wheels for them. Any recommendations on vendors?
We've been getting data back from cfd. No red flags. Pretty much what we expected. Some of the little problems that we were expecting have turned into non-issues. Everything is GO! Targets very much achievable. Thanks to all that gave the great tech advise.
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Marlo had his wheels made by Taylor and they filled the order to the letter.
FREUD
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Marlo had his wheels made by Taylor and they filled the order to the letter.
FREUD
Thanks Freud,
Do you have contact info at Taylor? I can't find them on the internet.
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Marlo had his wheels made by Taylor and they filled the order to the letter.
FREUD
Thanks Freud,
Do you have contact info at Taylor? I can't find them on the internet.
The number I have is 323 567 3998. I think they have been sold. Check with Ferguson? Wayno
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I talked with Taylor about three weeks ago. They have some environmental problems that could finish the business. You may wish to talk with Bob Sage at Wheel Smith. (800) 854-8937. They can make any wheel including 18". They are fast,good and will stand behind the product. The Wonderful One
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Nobody answered the taylor number. I will try wheel smith.
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"The number I have is 323 567 3998. I think they have been sold. Check with Ferguson? Wayno"
Whats wrong with Wayne's post? Only two above your last one, one when you wote that no one replied.
DW
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Rob,
Your last post was in June, an progress on your project??? Up date if possible.
Rex
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Robb---come on man give us a Christmas up date!!
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You might try their web site:
http://carbinitelsr.com/
It looks like they are making some good progress and the goal is still Aug of 2012.
Rex
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thanks Rex
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Okay, quick update.
First, we just moved the shop (both Carbinite and the fabricating shop) starting in November. About three times more working room.
We are still in the process of making it sweet (lights, paint, assembly room, compressor room, tons of wiring, etc).
I would say we have another 2 weeks of shop work before we can get back to Streamliner construction.
Engineering is only about 95% done but it is far enough along that we can make the parts that have been locked down.
Doing things in the virtual world of solid modeling really has its advantages. Once I have finished final engineering on a component like a tank, solid works lets me quickly make a sheet metal template in a .dxf format. I then email that file to my local waterjet guy along with quantity, material and thickness. He will then call me in a couple of days and tell me "come get these things". I then run them over to my buddy with the box break and what do you know, everything fits up perfect every time. Makes for some really fast part production for 1 off or 2 off pieces. It also lets me get pretty extravagant with design as the waterjet machine does not care how complex I make it.
I've also really enjoyed getting back to tig welding. I used to do it for a living 20 some years ago. Welds on the aluminum tanks are not the prettiest but the oil and fuel tanks did pass leak test with just some really minor touchups.
So. What do we have now?
1) fuel and oil tanks complete
2) headers started
3) 2.0 extremeliner rearend is here with all custom brackets and brakes. (never thought I would spend so much on a rear end).
4) 4sp Transmission is ordered from B&J (Sent deposit many months ago. I told him no hurry as it's not holding me up).
5) (4) rear wheels are here from Custom and Commercial Wheel.
6) All parts are here for the water tank and hope to have it complete within a few days. This watertank is a very serious piece as it is a structural part of the car. It is compartmentalized for engine cooling and intercooling water.
7) Chassis tubing is all here.
8) Steering wheel and pedals are here.
9) Mold is built for the rear wheel fairings.
10) Fixturing is built to check wheel and tire runout.
11) Forward chute box is released to waterjet
12) Chassis fixture is designed and all materials (2 x 4 tubing and 12" I-beams) are in house
Vinny is now retired and ready to give up his heart (496 BBC) and all his electronics. The last thing he did was to go 8.76 et on just 22 psi of boost.
There is certainly a long way to go but I try to get something done on it everyday. In order to make it to Speedweek 2012, I will need to start putting about 40 hours a week into the project and come up with lump of money for the body molds. Brandon and I can build the molds if we have to but it sure will take a lot of time.
We really want this done for 2012. We are having so much fun with the build that I hate to rush as it removes much of the fun.
Thanks again to Eric Alhstrom who has been my educator and friend through his whole project.
BTW, lost my rulebook in move. Can someone tell me if the clutch can must be SFI or will any 1/4" steel can be okay.
The problem that I'm having is finding an SFI can that is for low ground clearance applications.
This is the one I want to use. http://www.stockcarproducts.com/tilton4.htm Is this one okay?
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!/4" steel is 1/4" steel :-P
WOW!!! I can wait to here "B'inne" swoosh down the track
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You know there is nothing quite like the feeling of having your racecar run and drive under it own power for the first time. I'm guessing it's a lot like giving birth or something. Not that ever tried to give birth to anything. I mean,,,,,, well my level of participation in the birthing of my kids (4) in all, really wasn't all that much work. LOL!
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BTW, Thanks Sparky! Now I have to find a clutch with a 1-3/8 x 10 spline that will handle 1700lbs of torque and fit in that can.
I guess I'll call Ram tomorrow unless anybody has a better idea.
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I would look at a slider clutch you can make them handle "anything"
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Good job Rob.
Nice to hear about you.
FREUD
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Rob, Good to hear that the project is moving along. I will call you the next time that I am in Butler for a visit.
We had a successful experience at Bonneville with our 56 Corvette. We qualified for our B license at 197+.
We also ran at the Last Maxton event. It was quite an experience.
Regards, Dave
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I would look at a slider clutch you can make them handle "anything"
Are you thinking of a Crowerglide or something?
I'm also looking for something relatively inexpensive as I don't need to cut a good light anything. Just engage once per run.
Many clutches designed for this kind of power are extremely elegant engineering marvels and are priced accordingly.
The amount the clutch slips and the consistency are what the Pro Mod boys are looking for.
Just need a clutch to hold the torque. The planetary clutch packs will absorb the harshness of the shifts and along with longer than usual axles giving me some additional torque absorption, we hope to avoid the problems that have plagued the Speed Demon.
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Is it worth looking at a Tilton or something similar? There are several multi-disc brands out there. They are readily available even on the used market, are easily rebuildable and are designed to take a fair degree of abuse. They just don't like being slipped a lot.
Pete
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We use a Hays 6 finger centrifugal clutch lever, 3 disk 10'' clutch. We don't slip it because of trouble getting
to it and time spent adjusting. We destroyed the stands on an older style 3 lever alcohol dragster clutch.
Its been awhile since we bought but it was around $1300 + the disk $125 from what I remember probably more now.
Our bellhousing depth is 711/16'' but had to grind down floater plates [ still within min specs] to fit inside bellhousing for 3 disk.
Hays 216 398 8300 or 216 688 8300
This clutch was being used on pro-mods at that time.
We started with 2 disk but were slipping it so went to 3 disk by just adding longer floater plate stands.
Our Camaro weighs 4900 lbs. so if your lighter and slippier a 2 disk might work.
JL222
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Quarter Master makes 7 1/4" and smaller multi disc clutches and 9 1/4" diameter ring gears for low ground clearance bellhousings that use their rear entry reverse rotation starters . Their rear entry bellhousings are cast aluminum so I had to add a starter pocket to my Lakewood bellhousing .
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I believe I need a 1-3/8 x 10 spline clutch. I'm not sure what dia I can get away with in the low ground clearance bell. I think the bigger in diameter I choose, the less number of disk I can have.
Tilton does not have any clutch with the shaft interface I need or the torque capacity.
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Rob, what max flywheel diameter can you use? I might have an old 10" - 3 disc (1-3/8-10) AFT laying around in my shop.
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I believe I need a 1-3/8 x 10 spline clutch. I'm not sure what dia I can get away with in the low ground clearance bell. I think the bigger in diameter I choose, the less number of disk I can have.
Tilton does not have any clutch with the shaft interface I need or the torque capacity.
The Hays clutch doesn't care about spline size just diameter of disk and right spline in disk for input shaft.
JL222
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We had a 3 disk Tilton in 2010 that got destroyed. Now run a Crower no problems. Look at advertised torque limits. SB
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Rob, what max flywheel diameter can you use? I might have an old 10" - 3 disc (1-3/8-10) AFT laying around in my shop.
I think that bell uses a 153t flywheel.
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Rob, what max flywheel diameter can you use? I might have an old 10" - 3 disc (1-3/8-10) AFT laying around in my shop.
I think that bell uses a 153t flywheel.
I'll look for it monday and give a flywheel diameter.
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Found it. Its a 2 disc lite weight clutch from my OLD p/s days. O.A.L. dia of flywheel is 14" . OAL hite is @ 5.5"
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7005/6546528467_460ed76ff8.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/28623114@N02/6546528467/)
DSC00179 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/28623114@N02/6546528467/) by jdeleon1955 (http://www.flickr.com/people/28623114@N02/), on Flickr
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Wow. That clutch looks really nice.
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Well, we got a start on the water tank.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/3d626725.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/183ff896.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/febaabc4.jpg)
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We think the water tank will be one of the more difficult sections of the build as it houses two pumps, one radiator, is partitioned to separate engine cooling water from inter cooling water and is a structural part of the chassis.
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I'm pretty sure I have a box with spare floaters and discs too. Need to make sure they fit the AFT. Only problem wil be the total height of the clutch package with the bellhousing your looking at. You will need something @ 8" or more in can depth to accomadate the clutch as a 2 disc or 3 disc and a throwout bearing.
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We think the water tank will be one of the more difficult sections of the build as it houses two pumps, one radiator, is partitioned to separate engine cooling water from inter cooling water and is a structural part of the chassis.
wow, that's more complicated than our car!
Great to see this project moving along Rob.
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I'm pretty sure I have a box with spare floaters and discs too. Need to make sure they fit the AFT. Only problem wil be the total height of the clutch package with the bellhousing your looking at. You will need something @ 8" or more in can depth to accomadate the clutch as a 2 disc or 3 disc and a throwout bearing.
I'll give Mike at call at B and J tomorrow.
He said that he might have can for me. If I have to, I might modify it for the ground clearance that I need. It will still be 1/4 steel plate but I would lose the SFI cert.
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Happy New Years all!
Brandon and I have been making some progress on the water tank.
You can get a little video tour here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmI5juqqk2w&feature=youtube_gdata_player
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/6433f243.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/4475fb1d.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/965307a7.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/79d445b8.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/43e06259.jpg)
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LOVE the driving position! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: it will be nice when we get the unread fourm feature back!!
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Nice looking work! Did you find out about the bellhousing?
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No. I'm sorry. Keeps slipping my mind to call him. I have left myself an alarm on my phone to call him tomorrow (Tuesday).
I was also thinking about engineering a face tooth coupling in place of a clutch but that would be pretty time consuming. A Clutch like the unit you sent pictures of is probably our safest bet.
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Wow, This build is outstanding!
Have you talked to Bob Brooks at AFT Clutches? The guy is great, and should be able to help you with your clutch needs-he'll make exactly what you want.
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Thank you very much for the compliments on our build.
I think we have a clutch that will work from jdeleon but now we are on a quest to find a bell that will work with this clutch and the B & J trans.
The stickler is that it needs to be designed for low ground clearance.
I will probably just have to modify a standard bell.
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Take a look at some of the late model stock car stuff. They tend to run the power train really low and often make the bottom of the bell housing flat. Multi disk clutches are the norm.
Pete
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Yes but those clutches won't take the kind of torque I will be putting though it and they are not available with 1-3/8 x 10 spline. Also the bolt pattern and pilot dia. for the trans is different so I would have to make an adaptor plate.
Got to be an easier way.
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I wasn't thinking of the clutch. It sounds like you may have that solved. I was thinking only of the bellhousing which should be easily modified for any transmission pattern.
Pete
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I was also thinking about engineering a face tooth coupling in place of a clutch but that would be pretty time consuming.
Rob,
You mentioned possibly foregoing a clutch, and using a coupling.
You might look at a Dodge or Woods coupler- very easy, very dependable, as long as you gets them lined up good. We use them on everything up to 2000HP traction motors, running 0-100% constantly. You might check and see if they would handle the rpm's- they will handle the torque!
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Rob, take a look at this from my machine tool days: www.stoffelpolygon.com
As a certified motor head I always thought this might find a race place! :-)
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Pretty cool Woody! I have never seen those type of drives before.
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Rob, I counted 168 teeth.
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Rob,
Can you send me a shipping address?
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PM sent.
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Here is a little video I made showing how the steering is going work.
Notice the bulkhead plates have tabs that extend down to the I-beam fixture. Those tabs will be trimmed once the chassis is done.
This is my first try at making screenshot video. I will work on improving quality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3xvyaGFZy8&feature=youtu.be
BTW, I just love Solidworks. I really hated it until I got used to it but now I'm mad at myself for taking so long to convert over.
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Very nicely done Rob and thanks very much for the tour. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Thanks for the up date you have lots of folks following your build!
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Rob, That is very impressive. Look forward to seeing the finished product in the flesh.... :cheers:
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BTW, I just love Solidworks. I really hated it until I got used to it but now I'm mad at myself for taking so long to convert over.
Rob, It's a great tool but you will still come to know it as SolidQuirks! :-D
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Built the chassis jig yesterday. Got it as level as we could. Today we jigged the rearend. It's a start.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/4f8ea292.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/b755c1c4.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/cab17897.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/0934c53f.jpg)
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BTW, I just love Solidworks. I really hated it until I got used to it but now I'm mad at myself for taking so long to convert over.
Rob, It's a great tool but you will still come to know it as SolidQuirks! :-D
Yeah but my old software (Ashlar) was 10x worse.
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Structural steel is never all that accurate for what we want but it has weight and strength. The trick to using it as a jig is to level everything you add to the base (shims rule!). If you approach it with that in mind I'm sure you'll be happy with the results.
Pete
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Installed midplate and top bars.
Oil and gas tanks fit like they're supposed to.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/b75ce687.jpg)
Then I took it back apart as I noticed that the midplate had about a 3/16" bow in it from right to left. I'm sure that the engine / trans sandwich would surely flatten them when tightened but now would be the time to adjust it and make it a bit better.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/3640aba9.jpg)
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Does anybody have a pair of worn out 9 x 30" Mickey Thompsons? We will need a mockup / transportation set of tires.
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I've been contemplating not running an alternator on this project. In order to keep voltage from dropping off, I would be using a large capacity 16v LiPo battery. LiPo is great because it discharges at a very steady voltage. The manufacturer promised me less than 0.2 volt variation throughout the run.
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I have one that you would have to put a boot and tube in--you are welcome to it if you can use it
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Intercooler will probably be done sometime next week. Robert of Chiseled Performance is building the double 2000 hp unit.
I've been using and recommending Robert for a number of years as he has been one of my favorite vendors.
He delivers quality fabricated aluminum stuff. His many years of various applications makes him one of the best in his field when it comes to knowing what will work for us.
He is building the inlet tank with two 3" tubes so that I do not have make a "Y" pipe, I hate making "Y" pipes.
Robert likes our engineering so far and has come on board as a sponsor. He has worked us a very, very generous deal on our intercooler . Many thanks to Robert!!!!!
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Intercooler will probably be done sometime next week. Robert of Chiseled Performance is building the double 2000 hp unit.
I've been using and recommending Robert for a number of years as he has been one of my favorite vendors.
He delivers quality fabricated aluminum stuff. His many years of various applications makes him one of the best in his field when it comes to knowing what will work for us.
He is building the inlet tank with two 3" tubes so that I do not have make a "Y" pipe, I hate making "Y" pipes.
Robert likes our engineering so far and has come on board as a sponsor. He has worked us a very, very generous deal on our intercooler . Many thanks to Robert!!!!!
No doubt he does good work, But we need some pictures of said tank for this PLUG to be bonnafied!
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10-4 on those pics. As soon as it gets here.
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I have one that you would have to put a boot and tube in--you are welcome to it if you can use it
A boot?
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A boot?
A large reinforced patch used because the tire has structural damage. I guarantee you're not going to go fast with that one!
Pete
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LOL :cheers: Rob from before your time!! Before and During WW ll tires were especially hard to come by and the old cotton cord tires (before steel radials) would blow out or would have a sever puncture wound they would put a thick patch or most times an insert called a "BOOT" the inflated tube would hold it in place.
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A boot?
I thought it was a favorite Canadian term.
FREUD
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I thought a boot was what thewy put on one of your tires when you are parked in the wrong spot! :cry:
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They do that in Canada also.
Double meaning.........AH?
FREUD
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I thought a boot is where you put the tire :? As in put it in the da boot.
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Com'on Freud, we speak normally. The reference to the boot at the back of the car or the front in the case of a rear engined auto is a British term that never made it across the pond. 8-) 8-) 8-)
Pete
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Sparky, sounds like you have one tire. Does anybody have another?
Also, it is getting time to order the new set of tires. Is there a dealer on the east coast or midwest that stocks the MT 30 x 9s?
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Does anybody have a pair of worn out 9 x 30" Mickey Thompsons? We will need a mockup / transportation set of tires.
Look up the 411 roadster guys after a run, might be a bit shreded though :-D
JL222
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I'm pretty sure that you have to order them direct from Mickey Thompson Tires. They said that those would be available at the end of February. Contact Thomas Kundrik.
Hope that helps, Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Making a little progress on chassis construction.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/c17cea7d.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/d9fe14ba.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/ebfdfb4a.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/6b8dabe2.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/26055c1c.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/f2855c7a.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/f52f1b8e.jpg)
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We also had to take some time out to build the tubing bender. My buddy had a JD2 with the 1-5/8 dieset. He had also bought almost everything needed to convert it over to hydraulic operation. He said we could borrow it if we did the engineering and built the fixturing. 30 hrs later!
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/eb360492.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/851dd8db.jpg)
Anyhow, I have the engineering for the conversion if anybody else wants to convert theirs. The advantage to our design is that we can make a full 90 degree bend in one shot.
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Other developments include the Chiseled Performance intercooler arriving and Dave Chiotti who is a professional welder joining the team. I love to weld but but for the welds that my life depends on, Dave can do those. I will post pics of the intercooler as soon as I weld on the 1" nipples.
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Nipples done! Intercooler done!
Thanks again to Robert at Chiseled Performance.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/f0b215be.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/2dda0819.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/bb1435c6.jpg)
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That's badass. :-o
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Also, I figured a way to tie the two flaps together to make sure they stayed at equal angles. It's just a simple sway bar arrangement.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/22012rearsectionview.gif)
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You said nipples :-o that is a sweet piece.
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That's badass. :-o
Yes, Robert does do excellent work.
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This is another REALLY nice build. Keep up the good work Rob! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Nipples done! Intercooler done!
Thanks again to Robert at Chiseled Performance.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/f0b215be.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/2dda0819.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/bb1435c6.jpg)
Rob...why does it look like you can see inside to the intercooler cores :?
I like the extra straps Chiseled welded on.
JL222
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I was wondering about that myself.
The aluminum of the cores themselves do have a funny discolored pattern on them. I'm guessing that how Chiseled received them.
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The pattern happens when they furnace braze the core to the end plates.
Rob,
Have you ever thought about making the flaps such that as you gain speed they deflect closer to flat to maintain some down force but reduce drag? I have always thought that a coil over shock connected to the flap(s) would work. As you went faster the flaps would act against the spring to reduce their angle of incidence and maintain a set amount of down force but reduce drag. How do you plan to set the flaps?
Great build!! I am going to be in you area early June and WILL stop by.
Rex
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The pattern happens when they furnace braze the core to the end plates.
Rob,
Have you ever thought about making the flaps such that as you gain speed they deflect closer to flat to maintain some down force but reduce drag? I have always thought that a coil over shock connected to the flap(s) would work. As you went faster the flaps would act against the spring to reduce their angle of incidence and maintain a set amount of down force but reduce drag. How do you plan to set the flaps?
Great build!! I am going to be in you area early June and WILL stop by.
Rex
Seems like either the air or the water should go through those tubes. Looks like water goes around tubes but how does air
flow :?
If I remember right Rob is planning on varying the spoiler angle at shift points 8-)
JL222
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Yes, the the flap angle will be tied to vehicle speed directly through a PLC (programmable logic control). We will be able to maintain approx 3000 lbs of downforce from 180 mph through 550mph. Initially we planned to tie flap angle to gear position but since speed varies so much from shift point to shift point, we realized that it was not a good idea and the mph itself was more relative.
Rex, can't wait to see you out here in Butler, PA. Brandon and I will do our best to show you a good time!
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Btw Rex, that was the same idea that I had initially had about controlling flap angle via an adjustable air cylinder and reserve tank. Simply put, Eric said "no, you don't want to do that". That's the great part about this team. I trust everyone's area of expertise. Initially, I just say "ok", then I learn why when time permits. This allows us to move pretty quickly. Up to this point in time, after doing the research, I have found Eric to be right 100% of the time on all things aero related.
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Rob, you three guys are showing us one of the best times that WE gear heads can have:---a well thought out new tech approach to watch and learn from.
Very little of my car could not have been done in the '60s we are using some hi tech stuff to verify our choices so far we have made one major change: the "Wild Weasel" nose
update 3/1/12: the noses is off the back end of a tip tank from the '50s. The Thud Spud was a F105-B bomb bay ferry tank.
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I'm lookin for someone with the 7.5" radius dies (1-5/8 dia) for making the helmet bar hoops. If someone has the dies can send the a drawing of the two bars and just pay them to do it. If I would buy the dieset, I would probably use them once. Not worth it.
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Rob,
I agree with you if Eric thinks it is not a good idea then do what he thinks. After seeing some of the stuff that he has done he brings lots of experience, not just aero either.
Rex
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Try True Radius Bending. Tim is a longtime Bville racer and advertises in 2011 rule book pg.228. 805-962-2512
Sponsored us on tubing for headers and fire lines with out asking when we first built
Tube bending is what he does.
Tim Rochlitzer was the original builder of the ''old'' Seth Hamond lakester and his Raspberry Rocket.
JL222
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JL222, thank you!
I was hoping to find someone a little closer to minimize shipping but I will keep him in mind.
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I started putting some braces in the mail rails last night. A very special thanks to Chris Rusch of RMD. He is letting us borrow one of his tubing notchers and it is yielding fit ups like this. Btw this is the first cage chassis I have ever built.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/09fc6779.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/0b0e2345.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/c2410299.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/a274ca35.jpg)
It also helps that I can go back to the solidworks model and get the angles and lengths of the bars.
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Sorry, main rails, not mail rails. Lol!
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More pics from the mezzanine.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/3a4fa3ec.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/a23aff2a.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/a3f2330d.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/6063ec1a.jpg)
I hated to build the car so close to the wall but we sort of needed the rest of the shop to be able to make money.
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Wow going to be one trick looking LINER
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Sorry, main rails, not mail rails. Lol!
Don't worry Rob - you will be delivering the mail on the salt! :cheers:
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Rob, a lot of guys work themselves into corners, usually near a beer cooler.
:cheers:
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Wow!.......lots of things get talked about, this is getting done!
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Woody, I'm seeing more and more what you are talking about in relation to Solidquirks!
Does some funny things every once in while! Too often any more.
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JL222, thank you!
I was hoping to find someone a little closer to minimize shipping but I will keep him in mind.
Rob
I think Joe Timney is a little closer. Deleware Chassis.
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JL222, thank you!
I was hoping to find someone a little closer to minimize shipping but I will keep him in mind.
Rob
I think Joe Timney is a little closer. Deleware Chassis.
Yes, I'll ask him if he has the the 7.5R dieset.
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My wife had a dream last night-
I repeat! This was only a dream! I'll have to ask her what she ate last night.
Anyhow, here goes.
I approached my wife with a proposition to get us sponsorship money for the streamliner. I had told her that it would be easier for a woman to close the deal on this project as it might be a better human interest story. She wanted no parts of it. So I went to the local Kohls where there is a transvestite / cross dresser that is employed there.
You guessed it, I was there to get tips on being a tranny or whatever so that I could approach major sponsors as a woman.LOL!!!
The things we do to get our cars done! LOL!
Btw, trannys are not common at all here in Butler county as this is mostly farm country. Sheep are a bit skitish though!
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Umm Rob, there IS a thing called too much information! :-o
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Umm Rob, there IS a thing called too much information! :-o
Yeah, I know, but things were getting a little slow on this forum. I'm just happy that my wife is actually thinking about our project in her dreams but maybe this kind of thinking is not a good tradeoff? LOL!
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tips on being a tranny or whatever
Rob are you coning to get your buddy to build an electronic controller :-o for this tranny 8-)?
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It makes me angry that "they" (whoever"they" are) stole the word "tranny" off of us! What's next? Tranny is a car guys term. We should probably fight for it.
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Just have a................... Wait for it...................
"DRAG" race!
:-D
Couldn't help myself...
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LOL rotflmao :cheers: :cheers:
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Good one Mike! LOL!
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I can't find anybody with a couple hundred miles of me with that 7.5R dieset.
I think I will just order that dieset and we'll have it for future use.
I figure it will be about $200 with shipping to get those parts here. For another $200 I can own the dieset.
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Here is the tubing notcher RMD sent me.
http://www.baileighindustrial.com/notchers/tube-notcher-tn250.php
I think Chris knew what he was doing sending me this unit as a demo because I really want to buy it. It is sweeet!
It is very robust and rigid.
I was making all my notches in the mill but I was really having trouble with the shallow angles. This is easier to use.
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You'll be inundated with orders with the new larger helmets. :-D :-D :evil:
Pete
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Their stuff appears to be all first class.
Pete
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Their stuff appears to be all first class.
Pete
baleigh's stuff is very nice PJ.
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Please help me read the title of this thread:
Is "NACA 66 Special" one phrase; or is "Special A/BGS" a phrase?
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Please help me read the title of this thread:
Is "NACA 66 Special" one phrase; or is "Special A/BGS" a phrase?
Jack, absolutely
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Lets talk about the new helmets for a minute. Just how much larger will they be? Does anybody have a solid model of one? I would like to be sure that it will fit well within the our design.
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I do know this much. They are expensive. I believe the new code to be FIA 8860. Only two shell sizes available. Medium and large. They don't look to that much bigger than my Bell GTX that I bought in 08.
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I do know this much. They are expensive. I believe the new code to be FIA 8860. Only two shell sizes available. Medium and large. They don't look to that much bigger than my Bell GTX that I bought in 08.
On Glens advice I had a pal measure his new SA2010 to compare to the old Bandit I am using to build the car. His is 11" deep front to back, 10" high and 9" wide. Came out about the same as the Bandit.
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Trent, thanks for the compliment, like I was taught measure twice and cut once. The optional is tear out and redo
and time and material is $$$$. Patterns and templates are a major part of ground up fabrication.
When I was drag racing we made a lot of duplicate parts like motor plates and other pieces that can't be made at the track. Keep up the good work on the lakester. By the way is the fuel tank going to have a steel tunnel under it by the tranny?
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Trent, thanks for the compliment, like I was taught measure twice and cut once. The optional is tear out and redo
and time and material is $$$$. Patterns and templates are a major part of ground up fabrication.
When I was drag racing we made a lot of duplicate parts like motor plates and other pieces that can't be made at the track. Keep up the good work on the lakester. By the way is the fuel tank going to have a steel tunnel under it by the tranny?
Not to derail Robs thread but yes my tank will have protection under it.
Rob, I am jealous about you using that Baleigh notcher, fit looks killer.
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We also will have 1/4 steel plate protection between transmission and fuel tank.
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Your rear layout looks a lot like what I am ending up with. Is that a chute area between the tank and the QC?
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Yes, that is the reserve chute box. The Primary chute box will be located behind the QC.
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Eric (Blue) is real big about throwing out the laundry from the top of the car.
Rex
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Please help me read the title of this thread:
Is "NACA 66 Special" one phrase; or is "Special A/BGS" a phrase?
Jack, absolutely
You forgot the "sarcasm" smiley...
Come on guys- I asked a legitimate question.
In grammatical terms: what element of the title is modified by the adjective 'Special'?
I have not read this complete thread. But reading the recent pages and the first couple of pages gave no clue as to what is "special".
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Please help me read the title of this thread:
Is "NACA 66 Special" one phrase; or is "Special A/BGS" a phrase?
Jack, absolutely
You forgot the "sarcasm" smiley...
Come on guys- I asked a legitimate question.
In grammatical terms: what element of the title is modified by the adjective 'Special'?
I have not read this complete thread. But reading the recent pages and the first couple of pages gave no clue as to what is "special".
Jack, it is simply a name for the car based on the NACA 66 shape. "Special" being a common racing prefix for a wide variety of cars through history. Of course, the A/BGS stands for A Blown Gas Streamliner. Similar to Our name for our lakester stoled from Lindbergs plane Spirit of South Dakota or Doc Goggles and crew from down under with the Spirit of Sunshine or Stan Backs Spirit of San Diego etc...............
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Thank you Tman and yes, you are %100 correct.
BTW, we are looking for a new name. The "NACA 66 Special" is just a place holder although it describes the car a bit.
The wing, wheel fairings. front wheel fairing are all NACA 66-018 shaped. The fuselage is a modified version of the the 66-018 shape made from (8) lofted splines with the top and bottom halves having a different (modified) cord thickness. This is the shape that Eric recommended winter of 2009. I have grown to understand the significance of this shape and the significance of NLF (natural laminar flow).
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Thank you.
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Made a little progress on chassis.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/4008b142.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/479fee9b.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/38786c8c.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/5ec2d1ec.jpg)
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Very nice work, coming along nicely.
Does the rear front wheel come into the bulkhead recess?
Jon
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A nice clean looking build Rob. Keep up the good work. :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Very nice work, coming along nicely.
Does the rear front wheel come into the bulkhead recess?
Jon
yes, it does come into the recess.
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What gauge or thickness steel should we use in the seat area?
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Bottom is 1/4" mild steel.
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rob my seat bottom is 1/4" steel but my skin is alum tank skin.
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I was thinking on plating the rest if the area in with 3/32 steel plate. I can't find a minimum in the rule book.
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Rob what I was told several years ago where your but is as close to the ground as ours are the want to see some thickness either in the car bottom or in the seat bottom--my car has 1/4" plate welded to the lower frame rail in the drivers compartment---if you have a solid plate bottom I sure you will be fine----but I would check with the special construction guys or KIWI Steve or Kennedy!
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Got an email into Kiwi Steve. Ill let you know what the outcome is.
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The requirement is for an inner liner, you are not allowed to sit on the skin or only have the tubes and outer skin to protect your limbs. The safest way to do that is welded or fastened inner panels in the cockpit area. It not only keeps your parts in, it keeps other parts out. We used aluminum in the lakester, removable panels... the liner has welded steel between the tubes.
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Stainless, I would also think that the welded in inner panels would also add a little extra strength to the chassis.
What gauge did you use on the liner?
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Backup front tire / wheel combo:
In the event that the salt is bad and we cannot run our aluminum front tires, we want to come up with a rubber tire combination. I know we can only go 300 with these tires but it would give a chance to do some testing and let the crew members license up and have some fun.
I plan on using the Goodyear 2282 tires and a custom aluminum wheel with very large offset. The mounting face of the wheel would have to be even with the mounting bead to keep the steering centered on the contact patch. Who could build me such a wheel?
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Rob PM sent
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Thanks Glen!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUyd3_5ttN0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Here is a cfd we did to double check that there is no funny reversions or separations. All is good.
Hope to have chassis complete and sitting in the wheels within 4 weeks.
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You sure you didn't use an aerobatics program?
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Hmmmm, good question. Have to back to you on that. Lol!
Most of the design you are seeing on this build is based on extremely successful experimental aircraft.
These planes go well over 300 mph near sea level on about 100 shaft HP not including the 85% propeller efficiency. Let's not forget that some of that energy is going into generating enough lift to keep it in flight.
How much whp is required to push your average lakester or streamliner over 300? Hmmmmm? Why????
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How much whp is required to push your average lakester or streamliner over 300? Hmmmmm? Why????
:-o :-o :-o
Great build guys, I cant wait to see it run! :cheers: Tony
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It looks like the surrounding air is going to be really happy! Happy air should make for happy racers. :-D :-D :-D :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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It looks like the surrounding air is going to be really happy! Happy air should make for happy racers. :-D :-D :-D :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
Thanks Jack! Yes, we are hoping for Happy racers!
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How much whp is required to push your average lakester or streamliner over 300? Hmmmmm? Why????
:-o :-o :-o
Great build guys, I cant wait to see it run! :cheers: Tony
Thanks Tony!
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Rob - have you done any simulations with exhaust flow included? That placement is going to be critical in keeping things clean.
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With the our present technology, we cannot do that. At least I think we cant.
We would have to open the side ducts to ingest about 2400 cfms (1200 per side) and magnify it 3 times and shoot it out the exhaust.
We have a TON of thought into this but at this time we just have to apply what Eric has learned in the aviation industry.
We were going to have fairings for the exhaust pipes but I think we will be able to make long baloney cuts on the tubes until they are flush to the bodywork.
There has been a lot of engineering that went into the shape of the pipe because we are looking for a specific geometry at the blend point just as the pipes exit the bodywork.
The flush inlet ducts will only ingest a small percentage of air crossing the duct opening and the back of the duct will be shaped so that the excess air will reattach to bodywork. Again, not sure what the cfd could show us here.
BTW, great question. Too many times the question of what we will do with the exhaust becomes an afterthought. We tried not to let that happen here.
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Thought spent on this is going to pay dividends. Fairings to transition the exhaust into the mainstream seems like a good idea, maybe plan your mounting so it can handle different iterations so you have some room to play.
The other thing to consider is how the placement of those outlets will affect the down force (or not?) of the rear airfoil that fairs the axle tubes in. But I suspect the exits are largely dependent on the turbo's and chassis anyway. Its going to be interesting.
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With the our present technology, we cannot do that. At least I think we cant.
We would have to open the side ducts to ingest about 2400 cfms (1200 per side) and magnify it 3 times and shoot it out the exhaust.
We have a TON of thought into this but at this time we just have to apply what Eric has learned in the aviation industry.
We were going to have fairings for the exhaust pipes but I think we will be able to make long baloney cuts on the tubes until they are flush to the bodywork.
There has been a lot of engineering that went into the shape of the pipe because we are looking for a specific geometry at the blend point just as the pipes exit the bodywork.
The flush inlet ducts will only ingest a small percentage of air crossing the duct opening and the back of the duct will be shaped so that the excess air will reattach to bodywork. Again, not sure what the cfd could show us here.
BTW, great question. Too many times the question of what we will do with the exhaust becomes an afterthought. We tried not to let that happen here.
Rob, It is a non-obvious set-up but it can be done. I will PM you a wmv of a test model I did while working on Sparky's Thud Spud! Meantime here is a screenshot.
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Hi
WOODY@DDLLC.....Is that Solidworks Flo Simulation that you are using?
If it is which year do you have?
Thanks
Richard
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Hi
WOODY@DDLLC.....Is that Solidworks Flo Simulation that you are using?
If it is which year do you have?
Thanks
Richard
Richard, I use FS 2009 for setup & small jobs and FS 2012 for the big runs. One core w/4MB vs 6 cores w/12MB. Sometimes no substitute for cubic inches! :cheers:
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Do we need these upright bars (shown darker) to comply with rules or is the 1/4" forward bulkhead sufficient?
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/2d7b7dc9.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/2400a627.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/1aad2563.jpg)
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Rob the bulk head is under tension between the two frame rails I would be tempted to move the top toward the center ot the long diagional which appears to me to be under compression.
That should help it stay straight instead wanting to kick out. :|
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Rob,
I see the bulk head as possible area of high stress during an "unplanned event" that could actually cause the chassis to severely bend of fail at the bulkhead weld junctions. I would suggest that you use a piece of 1-1/2 x 2 (or 2 1/2) rectangular tube that would both pick up the rear tube junction and also be against the bulk head such that you could then weld it to the bulk head. Now you have the chassis loads all going through tube structure and the bulk head is stabilized and also better integrated into the chassis.
Just a thought,
Rex
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That rectangular tubing is a great idea Rex.
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Rex,
All through the design stages, I've considered that it may not be a bad thing if the whole front snout of the car breaks off at the forward bulkhead/ firewall in the event of unplanned incident. I'm also planing on it breaking off behind the driver.
I had planned on using 1-1/2 x 1/8 wall sq tubing welded to the tubes and firewall but fit up is really tricky and I'm not sure I can put them in in one piece. The tubes are not parallel to the firewall which adds to the complexity of the fitup.
I'm really looking forward to your visit! Lots to discuss.
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Hi
How do you get around SW not being backwards compatible ?
I mean that you cannot run a 2012 file on 2009
Richard
Hi
WOODY@DDLLC.....Is that Solidworks Flo Simulation that you are using?
If it is which year do you have?
Thanks
Richard
Richard, I use FS 2009 for setup & small jobs and FS 2012 for the big runs. One core w/4MB vs 6 cores w/12MB. Sometimes no substitute for cubic inches! :cheers:
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Hi
How do you get around SW not being backwards compatible ?
I mean that you cannot run a 2012 file on 2009
Richard
Richard, model files can be passed backwards as a parasolid. I usually export CFD models to parasolid as it will fix small "leaks" in the model. Geometry has to be watertight for CFD! But flow files and everything else is one way. And many of us complain about this at SolidWorks World every year! 2013 is supposed to be bi-directional but I also hear that may not be true!
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Hi
Yes it is a pain...we have guys here that have everything from 2008 through to 2012 and we get caught out often.
But I have been swapping iges file but will try the Parasolids.
I have never had the time to do anything but play with Flo...need to find more time and get into it.
Richard
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Bellcrank pictures.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/ec98b841.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/fdb0c96b.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/41fce7b3.jpg)
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More quality parts in the build diary.
It is exciting to see the workmanship that is going into the current builds.
ROB..... that is excellent.
FREUD
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"Blue" has been at the shop this week. Getting lots done. My brain is getting a little sore from stuffing if full of composite structures knowledge.
Hope everybody has fun at Elmo this weekend!
Pictures of this weeks progress to be added soon.
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Can we do this?
In reference to our interior panels, we have one bar (on each side) that protrudes into the interior by about 3/4".
Can we bring our interior panels right up to the bar like shown here or do we need to completely cover the bar?
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/48248fc6.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/be0f1065.jpg)
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(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/166b86d4.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/cb158962.jpg)
We got a lot of stuff done this week with Eric here.
We don't have a lot to show pictures of but we worked out several small but not insignificant problems.
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Rob, That is what the tech. committee is for---I had a similar issues: I asked for a variance on them, several were approved and and a very fair compromise was reached on the other: One of the compromises entailed gussets-- I will need to use a larger that 4" on a particular joint intersection --but leave a small opening at the juncture open for the "Jaws of Life"! Very helpful, open discussion! In my case I took my car to them but I wanted to go to the races anyhow---As I make the changes they will be emailed and their replies will be printed and put in the log book per their instructions-- My suggestion, Send picts now get them involved!
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Rob, our streamliner has the .090 panels stitch welded in the middle of the tubes, basically making huge gussets. So half of the tube is inside the cockpit, never been a question during tech. The rule is that you can't sit on the outer skin... you need a secondary floor and sides in the cockpit that also serves to retain arms and legs inside. But, as Sparky has suggested, you can never involve the tech chair too early in a build. I'd put together a little slide show of the build and send it in for review. It is really looking great and safe... the important part is safe.
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+1 on getting Tech involved early, Grumm must be getting sick of my emails but at least we should avoid a WTF moment when I'm finished, hopefully......
Cheers
jon
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Ours is like Stainless's, except heavier, I think it's just under 3/16ths which encloses the cockpit welded along the midline of the tubing, the firewall and seat back are 1/4 as is the floor.We tried to build in as much weight as we could having such little space to play with.If you have the room there are advantages to having them inside as they'd minimise impact points in an upset.Looking at your car I'm thinking you're hoping to run a little lighter than most :cheers:
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z187/fourdoorshitbox/stewshots166.jpg):
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Lots of pics from last week. visit:
http://s749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/
Had lots of fun and got a lot done when Eric was here!
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/DSC_6237.jpg)
From left to right: Brandon Barnhart, Ted Wolf, Ted Freyvogel, Rob Freyvogel (me). Eric Ahlstrom(Blue)
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More pics of the first part out of the molds. Now things are getting exciting!
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/ea273bfa.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/17339a1c.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/3982e1a9.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/2c674477.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/0466fab6.jpg)
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(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/DSC_6237.jpg)
From left to right: Brandon Barnhart, Ted Wolf, Ted Freyvogel, Rob Freyvogel (me). Eric Ahlstrom(Blue)
Rob, Always great to have the faces of the main perpetrators! Would have liked to have been a mouse in the room! :-D
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wheel pants :?
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+1 on getting Tech involved early, Grumm must be getting sick of my emails but at least we should avoid a WTF moment when I'm finished, hopefully......
Cheers
jon
Print and save responces from tech emails good or educational. and keep them in the build diary for future tech "discussions a inspection. :-D
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Rob,
I am in Maine right now but should be in your area late this week and will call to set time to come by. Can't hardly wait!!
Rex
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wheel pants :?
Yeah, wheel pants. I guess that is what you call them.
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wheel pants :?
Yeah, wheel pants. I guess that is what you call them.
Sparky is just bummed it is not a lakester!
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Rob,
I am in Maine right now but should be in your area late this week and will call to set time to come by. Can't hardly wait!!
Rex
Looking forward to it Rex!
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T-man relived might be a better description :roll:
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Here are some pics of Dave Chiotti our Master Welder! He had the foot control under one cheek of his butt and would just rotate his hips to start the arc and control the amps. Totally out of position but getting it done.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/72122cb8.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/458b4f0d.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/f909efd0.jpg)
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That's why those of us who have attained a little more maturity (girth) prefer to use rotisseries, or flopping the chassis around on stands or a bench, etc. :roll: :roll: :-D
This continues to be another amazing build. Keep up the great work. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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I looked at that picture inside the chassis, and my first thought was: "Damn, how many times would my head bounce off of the frame before I got it undercontrol when a spark went down the neck of my shirt". Hell of a welder, and great self control.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Lookin good :cheers:
They would have to have a cherry picker to get me out of there :-P
JL222
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Robfry
Maybe it should be ' Totally out of Control but getting the job done ' great build !!
Doug
Back in my gasser days i was doing a vertical stick weld on the frame, and a little dingle berry landed in my ear and i could hear it sizzeling in the wax but could not stop the weld. Ah the fun days of racing!!
Don
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I was doing a tack in a weird position lying on the floor and a slag ball dropped on the floor and rolled my way under my arm pit, burned , I shifted---but it still felt warm---I shifted again, felt warmer---then the smell of burning cotton---Tshirt---and hair---arm pit hair :-o now I have a custom shop T :lol:
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Bill;
I set my hair on fire while torch welding-- no fun at all! :-P
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I was told a long time ago that if you are welding and smell fire. "STOP" and put yourself out :-D :-D
Ron
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Ron, you're probably correct but those of us who have been doing it for a living for a long time always seem to be intent on completing the weld first. :-o :-o :?
Usually when you get one in the ear your head is between two rather firm surfaces such as the frame and the floor. The bouncing between the two just adds to the excitement. After a while you learn to wear ear plugs when the chances of this happening are greatest.
Pete
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I looked at that picture inside the chassis, and my first thought was: "Dodge, how many times would my head bounce off of the frame before I got it undercontrol when a spark went down the neck of my shirt". Hell of a welder, and great self control.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Very few sparks with tig. That was not that much of an issue for him.
I do plan on making a rotisserie but we want to do as much welding as possible before it comes off the jig.
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Also harpooned my thigh more than once with a hot tungsten, just going to set the torch here for a second to move the part.
Don
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We're all really sidetracking this exciting build thread, BUT. . .
Sparks may occur when using gas welding rod while TIG welding critical update tubes into your A/Fuel dragster (not me , just best buddy).
AND
while trying to brush aside the shop pet dog with the rod alone @ 11 PM while tacking a tube from the underside of the jig sometimes causes you to stab YOURSELF in the arm making it semi - limp for a while.
Serious as yrs truly though it was, Kaiser emergency only figerrd it needed a Band - AID!
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Today I finished the "blow by" catch can.
The inlet tubes from the valve covers come up from the bottom to help clean up the plumbing a bit. The inlet tubes also have extensions that prevent drain back. There is also a baffle to help separate the oil from the "blow by" fumes.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/9e5a3f02.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/20b8e0f2.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/fd24c1f0.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/fac611c5.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/443834c5.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/c6f7cfea.jpg)
Lot of work for a silly vent tank!
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Very nice work! Tony
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Btw, this means that all tanks are done and mounted.
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Rob,
A quick note to say a big "THANKS" for your time last Saturday for my visit to your shop. I can't tell you how much I enjoyed visiting with you and Brandon. And for the rest of you I can tell you that this project is absolutely first rate, the level of engineering and the quality of the build it exceptional. This car is going to be a real contender for the wheel driven record and just looking at the Solid Works illustrations of the car that Rob has it will be beautiful and I am sure very fast!
Thanks again Rob!
Rex
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Hi Rob
You might give some thought to venting your engine from the lifter valley area instead of the rocker covers,even if you meter the oil to the rockers you have a ton of oil there verses the lifter valley.
In 67' i was building Can-Am engines for Al Bartz and never any rocker cover breathers, after he explained it to me it made sence since he learned it from Traco where he worked before starting his own shop.
So i started my own shop in 68' and never breathed any engines from the covers in 18 yrs, plus a lot less chance of a fire because of too much oil mist in the vented air.
Just think of all the racing engine fires from oil out the breathers next to the red hot pipes !!!
Just my 2 cents worth
BTW very nice tank & building of your new car
Don
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"In 67' i was building Can-Am engines for Al Bartz..."
Did you know George Bolthoff? He built our aluminum BBC engines for Bob's McLaren in '72 & '73.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Hi Neil
Did not know George but raced with Tom Larkin helping with his Top Gas car and he raced George all the time , both cars ran about the same in 1965 or so. Then Larkin wen't to Top Fuel and tried to play with the big boys , he should have stayed in top gas where he won quite a bit as top fuel is a tough game.
Knew his helper and he was a painter doing helmets etc, tried to locate him a few yrs ago for some paint work i needed but no luck.
Boltloose as they called him did a cool thing with his blown 392, he set the hilborn barrel valve on the rich side so it would puff out a trace of black smoke and the engine would make a rupp - rupp sound with the exhaust so you could tell it was George's car running pretty clever idea !!
BTW how is your Manta coming along, aways liked those neat body's looked like a Can-Am Coupe
Don
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Don;
I don't know if Bolthoff is still around but he sure built us some fine ZL1 BBC engines back in the day. We had two- one in the car and another as a spare or being rebuilt by Geaorge at his shop Engine Systems Development. Consistent, reliable, and lots of torque. One dyno'ed at 665 hp and the other one at 666 hp. He ran without hearing protection, as we all did in those days so he couldn't hear very well at all. Now I have a bit of that same problem, too.
Although I haven't posted much lately in the Build Diary, I've been busy revising the Mirage rear chassis so that the suspension pick up points are located better. Lots of cutting & grinding & welding.
BTW, a salesman in a local abrasives distributor gave me a sample 4 1/2" sanding disk for my angle grinder; it is a new abrasive from 3M. I forget the name but that "32+" disk cuts steel like nothing I've ever seen. I was so impressed that I went back and bought a few 60+ and 80+ disks. If you do any fabrication, I recommend trying them.
I think the Manta Mirage should have good aerodynamics since it was based on a McLaren M8 but their conversion of that body style into a closed-cockpit coupe should have even lower drag than the original M8.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Rex, thanks for the kind words! It was truly a pleasure to meet you also. It's too bad you did not get a chance to meet Eric.
Neil, do you know Chuck Beck from the old Can-Am days? Chuck us one if my all time heroes. I just had the chance to meet him a few months ago. Btw, I love Mantas!
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Don,
I will take that advise about the valley venting being better than valve cover venting although I know there is a lot of oil flying around the valley also. Might be more room to build baffling in the valley.
When using dry sumps, I put one way valves in the lines between the crank case and the catch can. If I can pull vacuum, the valves stay closed but if I start to make positive crank case pressure, it opens the valves and vapors can enter the can. On my twin turbo BBC, I have not emptied my catch can in four years. She is sealed up pretty good. I attribute this to the Childs and Albert zero gap second rings. I wish they still made them. A lot of engine builders don't like them as they contend that the top ring sealing is hindered because the second ring is so sealed.
All I can say is that they work for me.
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Hi Rob
As i was a drag guy for 8 yrs when i walked through the door at Bartz's shop, every drag car i ever saw had breathers on the rocker covers, then seeing these road racing engines without any i thought what it the deal here.
Then Al explained about pressured oil at the rockers, and no pressure in the valley all came to light real quick.
I'am just amazed that racers have not figured it out after 45 yrs later, still breath at the worst spot in the engine and still have oil fires becuse of it.
My friend built a brand new 5 liter hydroplane back in the day , i told him about the breathers in the wrong place and first time on the water had a fire and burnt his new boat pretty bad too.
It just make's common sence when you think about it like Al said to me in 67' and he learned at Traco before that.
Don
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Hi Neil
A new book is coming out by Phil Henny about Al Bartz, since i was his first employee Phil asked me to write a chapter and what a neat time is was telling some of the things that wen't on at the engine shop.
I'am very gratefull to Phil for asking me to add to his book titled : Al Bartz Engine Man
Just got my copy 2 days and it is done very well, and full of info about the people in his life like Traco - McLaren - Don Brown [ sprint car builder ]etc.
Don
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Robfrey & Don;
I met Chuck years ago but I can't claim to know him. He builds some nice cars!
I'll check out that book on Bartz-- thanks.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Hi Rob
How was Chuck involved in the Can- Am stuff back in the day, do you have a contact number for him?
Would like to say hi.
Thanks
Don
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I'm not sure how Chuck was involved but I don't think he was driving. The only time I met him, I took him out for dinner and we mostly talked about his kit car stuff and his designing and building of the Shoguns. He is just such a cool guy and has had his hands into soooo many major automotive ventures. It was a real pleasure meeting him. He has a customer that is thinking about having him prep a 904 for LSR so maybe we will see him on the salt soneday. If any of you other guys are wondering who we are talking about, google "Beck 904".
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Here is the mold box for the rear wing flap.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/FLAPMOLD3WITHSIDEPLATES.gif)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/FLAPMOLD2.gif)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/FLAPMOLD1.gif)
Top and bottom flap mold boxes complete. Ready for foam, shaping, glassing and finishing. Note that the end caps come off to allow easier finishing of mold and easier part removal of final product.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/cfccd447.jpg)
Ready for shipment to Blue. He will be doing the composite work from here on out.
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Just a quick update.
This week I finalized the front suspension layout and am currently making the detail drawings of the pieces. Jdeleon, get ready.
I also finalized the 1/4" plywood form dxf's for the fuselage and released them to waterjet.
Even though there is not a lot to show you guys, we had a great week.
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Rob I understand "not a lot to show." There are times on the Target550 car that the work doesn't show a lot of progress
and then all of a sudden......WOW, it sure looks different.
Several things impress me regarding your project. First is the concept and secondly is the computer aiding in the design.
It seems to me that the writing is on the wall. Computers will come into use more and more. There is a lot of helpful
info in many applications. The use of computers will bring in a younger crowd. They are at home using that method.
Great job on your project.
FREUD
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Just a quick update.
This week I finalized the front suspension layout and am currently making the detail drawings of the pieces. Jdeleon, get ready.
I also finalized the 1/4" plywood form dxf's for the fuselage and released them to waterjet.
Even though there is not a lot to show you guys, we had a great week.
You got my email address Rob.
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Jdeleon, got it. Lord willing, I will send you a drawing and a solid model tomorrow. What format do want the solid model in?
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Parasolid works for me. Either x_b or x_t.
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Made some good progress today. Dave came out to weld tonight and just about finished it.
We welded all we could while it was on the jig but now it's time to take it off and flop her over. I was amazed at how much smaller the car seems when it sits at ride height.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/e248c979.jpg)
Here is the thickest cross section of the fuselage.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/92393df5.jpg)
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Rob, it was great finally meeting you!
This is a great build, and I can't wait to see it in person.
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It was great tot meet you also Buddy! Can't wait to see you, crew and your Caddy on the salt.
We do plan on being at Speedweek.
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It was great tot meet you also Buddy! Can't wait to see you, crew and your Caddy on the salt.
We do plan on being at Speedweek.
Note to Ohio Mile heat fried brain: Go to Corvette and meet Rob! :-D
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Been a while since we posted anything.
Here are some pics. I really want to be sitting in all four tires by the end of August.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/e52ea22d.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/284e7e43.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/6df9d5a7.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/1e02238f.jpg)
My son Andrew on rust control.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/1e8a5ad2.jpg)
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Eric has been making great strides with the body. Eric has requested that I don't post any pictures of the progress until we are all done.
That way he can post the progression from start to finish within a couple of post.
We plan on fitting the body to the chassis in October.
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Whooe exciting times in LSR
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This is where we need to stop for a bit. The Carbinite 04 Cobra needs put back together. Going to take a week or so.
If your at Speedweek please stop by the 3838 Corvette pit to say hi.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/1B77762B-42E6-4B91-936A-8750C1991448-388-0000003B48D43C1F.jpg)
Wide track!
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/3EE8A707-EF3E-4388-9296-CA9F7ABFA616-388-0000003BA7278EE3.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/56CFCFBE-1B31-405B-B570-2BE23C97D842-388-0000003B5B954735.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/1267F815-6FE0-4B02-B23E-4EBE09347AF3-388-0000003B8A8CFC1F.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/01A6B930-4FF4-455D-BF1F-38474105FFD1-388-0000003BBA01AF5E.jpg)
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Nice pictures. I really like the driver's area. The whole project shows a lot of craftsmanship. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Thank for the kind words Peter.
I would really like for everybody following this thread to know is that this car would not be what it is without the help of Mr. Tom Burkland. His unique incite and his willingness to share with us shaped the concept of this project. Not to mention how much time and effort he put into helping us engineer critical areas of design. As humble as Tom is he will probably be angry about writing this but I must give credit where it is due.
I can't help but think that God's intervention has brought people on board for this project that I could have never done on my own. We truly have an all star team!
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Eric has been making great strides with the body. Eric has requested that I don't post any pictures of the progress until we are all done.
That way he can post the progression from start to finish within a couple of post.
We plan on fitting the body to the chassis in October.
It has been interesting moving from cad to parts on the body. The flap molding into what were essentially "boxes" went flawlessly and convinced us to go this route on any constant tapered sections. We had planned on a male mold for the wing sections. This didn't work as well as hoped, so we are re-doing it in the manner we did the flaps.
The fuselage has been an interesting challenge. There are seven separate longitudinal control lines, all were gradient optimized with software I wrote, all were combined in cad and generated exquisitely smooth pressure and velocity contours when tested with CFD. Wing down-force vs. flap angle agreed with predictions to 1%. This meant that we could add bumps or blister fairings for anything that didn't fit with confidence and any joints aft of the laminar transition would be non-issues.
The nose section all the way to the firewall will be one-piece, with some very innovative structural attachments that Rob has worked out. We will have multiple points of support every few feet with no external fasteners to trip the laminar flow. And yes, it will be easily removable for tech. Once the nose goes on at the beginning of the week, it will probably stay. All service items are aft of the firewall or accessed through the cockpit hatch. We are debating about doing the engine/transmission area in 2 vs. 4 parts and we need to decide how much intermediate support we need in these areas. This is a 500 psf car (essentially the aero stress level of a military trainer), and needs about 4X the attachment and skin stiffness of a top fueler. One-piece hinged body shells will shatter at these speeds.
The challenge has proven to be the translation of the upper to side and lower to side control lines vs. the gradient optimization. Each control line has certain features that line up differently vs. their station. We solved the pressure recovery (aft) areas first and everything averaged out vs. the water jet forms within 20 to 40 thousandths. The real challenge has been on the front end where we are seeing 50 to 90 thousandths variations to achieve a smooth contour.
I can tell everyone this: Rob's plan of CAD-to-water-jet-to-foam-to-form, these are the cheapest and best molds I have ever produced. Nothing shy of expensive high density form board and a gantry CNC mill could translate design intent to reality as well as this; and that would have been 3 to 5X the cost.
The only problem is that by designing a perfectly gradient optimized shape, we have bought into a continuously changing curveture at every point of every surface. Even the slightest bulge or dip shows and there are no flat surfaces to just run a long board back and forth on. It would have been so much easier to build a pointy-nosed-brick; I wanted the low drag. We have actually invented our own 3 and 5' conformal tools to achieve the required contour to +/-.010". The linear parts like the wings, flaps, and wheel fairings are flat across their span so they are simple and quick to form even though they have continuous curveture in the chord axis. The fuselage is a work of art, albeit an expedient one, and we will be publishing pics of it soon.
Congratulations to Rob and the 3838 Corvette team on their record and red hat on their first time out. I had the priviledge to spend a week with the Carbinite team in June and they are true professionals. I had to stay home from speed week this year due to family health issues. I look forward to going to Mike Cook's shootout after the air races.
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We have actually invented our own 3 and 5' conformal tools to achieve the required contour to +/-.010".
Hi Eric, any chance of pics or details of these?
Thanks
jon
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Good stuff. Looks like its coming along great. Will there be additional support for the rear axle? It would seem under full load (even static) there would be deflection. I worked on some fixtures for an Indy car at AeroDyn and with the shallow angle of the vertical supports (similar to what you have or will have when done) we were seeing the car deflect under wind loading (with the lazar height sensors) as much as 1/4 inch (+). It happens so subtle that you could not see by eye and it was a surprise to see the numbers move on the team’s data readout. I had to go back and improve the design to eliminate the deflection. I know you are not going to produce as much downforce but then again you don’t have a 1400lbs car to begin with. A 1400 lbs Indy car with 2K, 3K lbs downforce is still less overall then yours static (I’m guessing).
One simple way to test for deflection is use a square off the floor and mark the center section of the rear-end. Then load it, heck have a few people stand on it to simulate the wet weight of the car and then see where your mark ends up. Even if that is not the final design it would be good to test when done. Just my 2-cents.
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JEEEZ what a great time to be associated with this sport---who could ever imagine that this web site would lead to such bonds of help and friendship and free exchange of ideas---this characteristic of this sport must be honored and protected ---thanks to all who contribute and share :cheers:
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I had the privilege to stop by Eric's shop on my way to Bonneville and see the first part of the body mold for Rob's NACA66 car and I can tell you that Eric is a very driven and resourceful guy and the car is going to be exceptional. After spending some time with him I am redoing the body shape on my lakester design and also working on trying to make at least the front part of the body to be a fiberglass part similar to what Eric is doing on the NACA66 car. The potential advantages of NLF (Natural Laminar Flow) are huge but to be able to get to the point where your car is working in that condition requires a lot of work and accuracy.
Rex
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I doubt that the wild weasel team will be tempted---yet :-D
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Big thanks to Jdeleon!!!!
Here are the bottom spindle supports for the liner. Only needed 2 but he made us a spare.
This is a big donation to our project and we are very thankful. Beautiful workmanship!
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/205F678D-E8ED-4D24-A85F-8C3F7DA64167-1824-00000226D51C3FAC.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/6CC7D921-3B1E-482B-BF49-0FB9BC6184AF-1824-00000226B9B898A6.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/1E240C69-9BD2-41CB-88D5-094463272446-1824-00000226AABC8F3A.jpg)
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Thanks for the kind words Rob. I feel honored to be just a tiny part of this amazing project. Please keep me in mind if I can help in any way. Javier
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Got the 21.5 " MTs mounted today.
I don't think these will work for us.
Hearing rumors that they grow too much for the clearance we engineered for.
Also, they are very square shoulder design, not like the other MTs and they are about .5 " wider than advertised.
I could have made these work if I knew what I was dealing with earlier on but I don't want to cut off the front of the car to start over now. We will go back to original design of a solid aluminum roller. This is a shame. It would have been nice to use conventional tires.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/1865f21b-e91b-37c9.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/1865f21b-e98a-d7b8.jpg)
I have a bunch of extra work in theses wheels getting them to run true. Bore was mfgd oversize so I had to weld them up and recut them on my buddy's cnc mill. Can't seem to win here.
On the brighter side Blue is making great progress on the fuselage body work! You guys should start putting the pressure on him to post the pics.
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Rob I will donate my flathead engine for testing [just kiddin]
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That's a nice paint job on rose rims!!! Even if I do say so myself...;D
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Rob what width wheel did you mount these on?
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Also, they are very square shoulder design, not like the other MTs and they are about .5 " wider than advertised.
On the brighter side Blue is making great progress on the fuselage body work! You guys should start putting the pressure on him to post the pics.
Bummer about the wheels.
They are very square, are they inflated in the pictures?
Pressure being applied to Blue HERE!!!.
Sounds like we are using similar construction methods, I recently got Mike Arnold's DVDs about his AR-5 plane design and construction.
Interesting viewing for anyone going composite body.
cheers
jon
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Rob what width wheel did you mount these on?
5-1/2" wide
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Jon,
The tires have about 70psi currently. The tire tech had them at 100psi and said that they grew but stayed pretty square.
The AR5 is an impressive piece of work.
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Rob I will donate my flathead engine for testing [just kiddin]
If we use a flat head, I'm going to steal Buddy W's. That's one bad caddy!
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The Taylors suggested to me to mount my 26"tires on 5" rims made them a Buger to mount I would bet that you may want to mount them on as narrow a wheel as you can so they will not "pull" away from the rims at speed as they grow. Pls check with others as I am only repeating one source opinion.
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Rob = Can you use the Goodyear 21" tire? (15"rim). We run these on the front of the RMR. It will be back at my shop in a few days if you need a mounted width measurement. vic (your next-door neighbor from Speedweek)
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“Hearing rumors that they grow too much for the clearance we engineered for.”
Rob,
Before giving up on the tires you might want to verify the actual growth characteristics rather than relying on “rumor”. From readings on this site, the Burkland’s, and possibly others, have facilities to spin them up to LSR speeds. This could also serve as something of a “proof” test for the tires.
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“Hearing rumors that they grow too much for the clearance we engineered for.”
Rob,
Before giving up on the tires you might want to verify the actual growth characteristics rather than relying on “rumor”. From readings on this site, the Burkland’s, and possibly others, have facilities to spin them up to LSR speeds. This could also serve as something of a “proof” test for the tires.
Read post #394 and put 2 @ 2 together.
JL222
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Rob = Can you use the Goodyear 21" tire? (15"rim). We run these on the front of the RMR. It will be back at my shop in a few days if you need a mounted width measurement. vic (your next-door neighbor from Speedweek)
Vic,
I would definitely be interested in that dimension and maybe a straight on pic of the shape of the tire. Thank you in advance.
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My theory is: The narrower wheels will have less tendency to have the tire pull away from the bead but will have more tendency for tire growth.
Remember, this car was engineered for 21" dia. 4" wide solid aluminum rollers which do not grow very much at all.
I would really just like to have some rubber up front for some low speed testing.
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If it's low speed testing < 250 mph why worry about tire growth? JMPOV :-)
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I was not too worried about low speed testing (300 and lower) tire growth but when these MT became available, I thought I could get away with these for the higher speed stuff without building aluminum rollers. Currently, it does not look like this is possible.
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Rob, you need to talk to Rick Vesco on tire growth. teamvescoracing@infowest.com
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Car should be here Thursday, info nlt Friday. IIRC, Goodyear rated these to at least 300. vic
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Made some progress with the cockpit area today. 16 gauge shoulder area containment.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/14C32F3A-8F48-48AA-9ACF-377A1443E516-3311-000005857911348B.jpg)
Floor under the knee area,
16 gauge. "X" pattern is slots cut in with the waterjet so we could weld through to the X brace underneath. Welded and ground flush. We will arc our 36 grit coating on next before painting.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/47AE8029-8C51-4710-B97C-B2691E0901BB-3311-0000058565741828.jpg)
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We were also able to run the front suspension though it's range of travel.
Everything looks good and we see absolutely no bump steer with the naked eye. We have not checked it with an indicator but it's close enough that a small amount of shim on the steering arm should fix it if there is any movement. It was also cool to have the steering hooked up and working. Sort of a milestone.
On the negative side, the front tires are too wide and the wheels were made 5/16 out of spec in regards to offset. Of course the wrong way that wheel spacers won't help.
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Last night we made some pretty good progress.
1) test fit the modified oil tank. Engine and trans were raised 3/4 " and created a clearance issue.
2) got at great start on design and manufacture of rear tranny mount.
3) built templates for interior side panels and modeled them in Solidworks. Making them from .062 steel would be a little tough on our shears so I just have them waterjet.
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Gauges,
Has there been any consensus on which is more visible on the salt, black or white faced gauges?
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Gauges,
Has there been any consensus on which is more visible on the salt, black or white faced gauges?
Good question! I was wondering the same thing myself!
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Nice build! I just saw this thread and can't help but think it's gotta go fast. Here's a couple concepts from Alex Tremulis who you probably already know about. The Uniroyal was prior to Goodyear's sponsorship of the Gyronaut, about 1964, and was planned for the wheel-driven record. The Green Gyronaut was to help solve the energy crisis with more miles per gallon, about 1974. It was built in 1980 for Subaru (Subaru Gyronaut X-100) and got 100mpg at 55mph. Your concepts work. The little cannard winglets up front were to help keep the nose down. As Alex would say: "Maybe the future has finally caught up with the past!"
(http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu248/gyronaut/uniroyalG.jpg)
(http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu248/gyronaut/gyronautG.jpg)
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Sorry, guys. I didn’t mean to bring up any bad blood with past posters (or propsters). You’re probably sick and tired of hearing “It looks like …”, and “They tried that…”.
You’ve got an outstanding build going and I’m sure I’m not the only one looking forward to seeing it go fast, whenever you're ready. Best of luck!
:cheers:
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Streamliner,
No offense taken.
I've never seen these pictures before.
Although our design is similar in layout, this design does not take advantage of natural laminar flow. Still, look what year this was. Very impressive for the time.
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Decided on black faced gauges along with the Fast Dash Logger.
For gauges, I plan on 2-1/16 oil pressure, water temp, oil temp, and maybe egt.
All gauges will be hooked to warning lights as I plan on being too busy to to spend much of my attention monitoring them.
Also, we will have a shift light and a flap light to tell us to remove flap angle.
The Fast Dash can be configured to compare flap angle to ground speed and will send a signal to the dash light.
My job as the driver is to hit up shift button when the yellow light (shift light) comes on and push the flap button when the blue light comes on. Both buttons will be on the steering wheel. I will have to hold the flap button until the light goes out. Because the output of the Fast Dash is PWM, I can program it to flicker before turning on or off completely. I could actually hook it up directly to the flap actuating motor but the rules (2.Q) say that that the computer can only control engine function.
Dash will be waterjet cut from .06 mild steel and welded permanently to chassis.
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Rob, What happens if you "buzz" :-o your eyeballs and them merge the two colors and you see GREEN :-o
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Rob, this year I put the one gauge I look at directly in the middle of the dash where it lines up with the center of the course. It is as far away from me as I could get it. This change reduced the distance my sight had to wander to see the gauge and it also reduced the change of focus needed to shift from the track to the gauge. All this helped.
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Rob, this year I put the one gauge I look at directly in the middle of the dash where it lines up with the center of the course. It is as far away from me as I could get it. This change reduced the distance my sight had to wander to see the gauge and it also reduced the change of focus needed to shift from the track to the gauge. All this helped.
What was the gauge?
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So far, everything is still on schedule for starting to mount the body at the end of Oct.
Can't wait to see the shell on the chassis. I expect it to be about a month long process to mount all the pieces.
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Can't wait to see the shell on the chassis.
Rob, you're not the only one! :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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With me not just having flat sheet metal ---the body is taking way longer than compared to the old car.
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Still licking my wounds from that election! Yoy! Hold on folks, it's going to be a bumpy ride! On the road this week but here are some pics of our work from last week.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/A61C79D3-EFC3-4C66-93E5-1CAAD5D9AD8C-316-0000002183A414A8.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/EED99166-4EAA-4162-8A2B-8E2EC2562394-316-000000215FD03828.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/ADDB38B2-F00A-4166-B6AB-DF7AE78BD392-316-0000002150232CF5.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/D4208316-9E38-436C-B9AB-AB50A1F00ED5-316-0000002143F9DD13.jpg)
Wing mold pics
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/629D1F10-831B-4BCB-929B-FC180DDB1D97-1807-000002A0A89EF93A.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/6714919B-CB7B-4CB5-BD81-7EBEC3641388-1807-000002A0797EAD14.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/8FB2423C-1811-46A5-A588-0CB95EE78707-1807-000002A06D0E59E3.jpg)
Dashboard
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/20864479-DA51-48C2-B57B-E6665E6790D1-1807-000002A01F11E7CA.jpg)
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Rob, looking good and thanks for more pic's. Picking your brains for our next project. Good stuff.
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Thanks Captain!
BTW, this is the engine that we will be running.
(http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq89/robfreyvogel/63%20Pontiac/41608017-1.jpg)
I know that she don't look like much but she makes over 1600hp (1306rwhp).
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Why not? Pontiacs have worked well in land speed racing.
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Tortoise, it's really a big block chevy, and if you look real close you can see a duct comming from the firewall into the air cleaner that I'd guess hides a bonnet for the boost air from the intercooler and turbos.
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Hi Rob
How is you new body coming along, looking forward to seeing it taking shape on the car.
Looking first class so far, nice tanks in front of the engine too.
Pretty soon it will wing city seeing the molds you have made.
Don
P.S. not happy in D.C. either
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Tortoise, it's really a big block chevy, and if you look real close you can see a duct comming from the firewall into the air cleaner that I'd guess hides a bonnet for the boost air from the intercooler and turbos.
Bingo!
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Don,
Body parts are coming along nicely.
Hopefully Eric will post a little montage on how he built the fuselage molds.
He is currently working on the tail cone mold. We just sent him the wing molds last week. So where are we with the body panels?
Fuselage = 100%.
Flaps = 100%
Wheel Fairings = 100%
Wings = 66%
Tail Cone = 50%
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Wowee Zoweee :-o
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I have always loved that sleeper!
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Rob--is the intercooler, cooling water set up as a 2 pass system?
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Need hubs to put wheel in right place?
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Latest progress
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/C0EB7862-91A5-4176-9CDD-17DBB61445A1-2084-0000034189B3DA37.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/78B899E6-272B-4FEF-9C28-3DEB6F444702-2084-000003418754119E.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/B9C7AB01-EFA1-4F0B-B76A-32A694A688A2-2084-00000341845C3CFC.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/36C9A7F0-94BA-4288-87C2-6EDAAB077AB6-2084-0000034181731F3B.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/098889B1-45C7-42AA-9FBE-5DD46C146F18-2084-000003417ED1F5CD.jpg)
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Need hubs to put wheel in right place?
Front spindle are done but we are in the middle of manufacturing the spindle carriers. Hope to have them done by Chistmas.
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Very nice :cheers:
jon
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It is looking great Rob. Your progress is amazing.
I will give you a call during the Holidays and If you are available
I will stop by to see the Monster in person again.
Dave Gray
#3611
56 Corvette
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Dave,
We are looking forward to your visit.
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A little derusting duty today.
We used a little muratic acid in the shop the other day and everything rusted to a light tinge of brown.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/8FF74A4E-3EC5-4211-BEE2-D8F3A9D178B1-9939-000006DC9E27B954.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/8FF74A4E-3EC5-4211-BEE2-D8F3A9D178B1-9939-000006DC9E27B954.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/FB0347AD-4BDC-4406-8848-DDD359CD1458-9939-000006DCA075DE72.jpg)
Good product!
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/98B00A5A-9D66-47F7-9DA2-BED61F0FE293-9939-000006DCAA927DFC.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/B03F433C-8060-4855-B9F2-6A4493D85244-9939-000006DCB47E2FB1.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/5119D60F-4093-4AD9-9E2C-6103CC97693E-9939-000006DCB6EDB5EB.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/00FD81C3-8C53-4CD1-971B-1EA227D9A037-9939-000006DCB955E91A.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/7EADB5A9-8B15-4B38-A6AE-B0277CEC7A55-9939-000006DCCE0CD504.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/F28450F7-3B09-42E9-959A-4BE0FEE97A8F-9939-000006DCD08CFE05.jpg)
Jon and Ray
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/F9D1354E-5734-43B6-B89F-1C03E7C05A7A-9939-000006DCD51B389D.jpg)
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WOW!!!!! :-o :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: What Awsome Packaging!!!!
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have you put it on the scales yet to get corner weights? (dry/wet)
Keep posting updates -- innovative build and I like the out-of-box thinking.
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Rob, the masses are already starting to get impatient! :-D
Man, it's starting to look good.............. and fast. :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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You have to be happy with the Rob, it looks brilliant.
The main tank is structural by the look of it?
Are the pneumatic front tyres staying?
I'm keen to pass the hat around to buy Blue a camera......
jon
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You have to be happy with the Rob, it looks brilliant.
Thank you very much.
I am getting exited now but I will feel better when we get it running and moving under its own power.
The main tank is structural by the look of it? Yes, much so.
Are the pneumatic front tyres staying?
Yes and no. I would like to have a set of pneumatic tires for testing at other venues but Bonneville will only be solid aluminum rollers.
I'm keen to pass the hat around to buy Blue a camera......
Blue has a camera and has taken many pictures, you guys just need to put the pressure on him to put together his montage along with the explanations of the steps. You know everything he does is over the top so I'm sure it's just a time thing.
jon
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Rob,
It is really starting to look like a race car!!! You have done a ton of work in the last few months, really hammering out the details. Like Sparky said "Great packaging"!!!!!! Just like everyone else I can't wait to see it with the body.
Rex
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have you put it on the scales yet to get corner weights? (dry/wet)
Keep posting updates -- innovative build and I like the out-of-box thinking.
Thank you.
We have not put it on the scales yet but we simulated how much weight will be in the tanks to find the center of gravity. Then we used that info along with the 3d printed model to ensure aero stability.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/8E8EBDB5-E172-4249-97D9-1DD810ACB227-9939-0000070777FF645A.jpg)
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Last night Brandon figured out how we could get the FAST Dashlogger to control the "flap down" indicator light.
We started working on this issue back in the summer. We knew how we wanted the FAST Dashlogger to handle this task but couldn't quite get it to work.
Brandon figured it right out in a couple hours and we are good to go.
Basically the Dashlogger will compare front wheel rpm to the 10k pot (0-5v) in the linear actuator and let us know via indicator light when it needs adjusted.
Also we worked out the design details for the upper and lower rad hoses (welded aluminum tubing bends and straights w silicone couplers) and ordered everything we needed from Frozenboost.com
This vendor has been pretty good so far and I recommend them for aluminum and stainless tubing. They are very inexpensive.
Woolf aircraft is also very good. They have higher quality stuff but a bit pricier.
Both have been very good about filling orders correctly and shipping it fast.
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"Are the pneumatic front tyres staying?
Yes and no. I would like to have a set of pneumatic tires for testing at other venues but Bonneville will only be solid aluminum rollers."
Loring in July?
Tom
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"Are the pneumatic front tyres staying?
Yes and no. I would like to have a set of pneumatic tires for testing at other venues but Bonneville will only be solid aluminum rollers."
Loring in July?
Tom
Probably not Loring. :-(
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We fitted up the "stinger" last night.
Bracing is not on yet. Needs the bracing to protect the rearend from any accidental side loading.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/9FD4233D-B9DB-49DF-A515-14D3FF33520C-11389-000007E10A745103.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/53055364-5C2B-4E21-A952-A2E879361A81-11389-000007E10D4E5C59.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/B9136B07-5170-49C0-8B79-58B8AA6EC18B-11389-000007E10F31FD0D.jpg)
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WOW!
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WOW is Right X 3
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Rob, can you post a shot of those "struts" going out to the axle tubes
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Rob, can you post a shot of those "struts" going out to the axle tubes
The struts under the axle or the big ones seen in the top view?
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Are you just going to make us beg :roll: ---of course we want to see them all :-D
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Doing stuff with the scouts today but I should be able to post pics of the struts tonight.
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Here are the picks of the rear end braces. Bottom brace will be about 3" shorter.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/656B97D0-2984-4843-B530-A075385DE7A9-13095-000009255E71D162.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/A8284DE2-BA0B-4D31-BF4E-18381452F2CD-13095-0000092552E7B734.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/303A69FE-E3EA-4E5D-AC3B-A2CB20DC5621-13095-00000925570E0BA9.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/0E2F2919-6AD5-4F12-AD0A-AC7D153FE013-13095-000009254D942E13.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/0B313B1F-0585-4A2F-8ECC-3EABE3FA1865-13095-000009255BF6F0B2.jpg)
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Spectacular Quality.
Congratulations.
FREUD
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Thanks Rob!
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Got the pulleys for the front of the engine installed today. We used HTD belts and pulleys for both water and oil pumps.
We still need to finalize the oil pump mounting but it is 90% there.
Big thanks to Chris Jones at Jones Racing Supply. If you ever need to dress the front of a race engine, look no further. This guy knows his business which is supplying every pump, alternator, pulley, belt etc. that you will need to finish out the front of your precious race engine. There is something to be said for spending a little extra money to get supplies from a vendor that really knows his stuff.
This may sound like endorsement for a sponsor. It is not. I paid full price. Did not even ask for a discount.
This is the second time I have used him to dress the front of an engine and the second time that everything fit exactly like it was supposed to. Yeee Haaaa! Another major thing crossed off our list.
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We also got the bottom plate tacked to the bottom of the aft parachute box / stinger. It was a critical thing to get right as it keeps the stinger in alignment with rest of the chassis. The floor of the this parachute box is .25" thick mild steel with a 6" radius rolled into it. The chute box is not just a sheet metal part to store the chute but also a structural part of the rear chassis / body mount / push bar.
On another note: Brandon and Chis made great progress on the wiring and switches are already starting to work.
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I hope the picture of John and Ray standing next to the car can settle some of the early concerns we heard about how "big" our frontal area was going to be. The neatest thing about using the 66 section for the body is how roomy the cage is. Decent room for padding and getting my oversize frame in and out. Main body is done, working on the wing, the spar and carry through will be carbon so we load the wheels and not the diff. A second big project is going on and I'll try to get pictures to Rob and a description of how we're doing it.
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This is such a wonderful build---to show what "INTERGRATION" of components can bring to the table--many of Robs parts have multiple structure functions and in some case, pieces & parts of multiple functions.
For example little of my car has multiple functions---ie my chute cans fit inside of an external frame, ect ect----so much to learn from these various builds--- :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Hoping Santa brings us a crap load of #12 fittings and a few #16s for our dry sump system. Don't know what bank I'm going to Robb if he doesn't. Individually they are really not that expensive but we just need so many of them. Lol!
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16s are fairly cheap on ebay used nt many use them
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No fittings! Gosh darn it! Oh we'll. opened presents, ate like a piggy now I'm bored. Ready to go back into the shop to work on the liner. Plan on sneaking out through the basement soon as wife takes her nap. LOL!
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:-D sounds like a plan. I still have famaily rounds to make. should be done around 9pm. Merry Christmas Rob.
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Merry Christmas to you too Cap'n.
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Plan worked. Got about 3 hrs in today.
Worked on the exhaust pipes but mostly the transitions right out of the turbos. I calculated that I needed eight .40 pie slices out of the 5" to transition to 4" dia.
It was a little difficult as it was a short transition and ended on a curve. Lots of extra stresses in the stainless at the curve. Was able to sort of pull it all together with big radiator style clamp and get her tacked. Bigger news for us is that when I held it up to the turbo it cleared the dry sump pump and pulley.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/8E13ECBA-920B-4D11-A208-3EBA66BDC273-2989-00000290E564A538.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/DE62E748-1ACB-49DE-83E3-DA70EA168A2F-2989-00000290DE4E8604.jpg)
Not perfect but close enough.
I can work it a little more round when I tack the 4" to it.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/980CFA9D-6FB2-4418-9C6B-91D84E920013-2989-00000290E08A19A7.jpg)
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Nice work!!
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Rob,
When you weld stainless try using "Solar Flux" works almost as good as doing an argon back up and is a lot easier and make the weld on the inside of the tube high quality. I have attached their web site.
What alloy are you using for the transition?
http://www.solarflux.com/Pages/Productinfo.html
Rex
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Rex, shhhhhhhhhhh! You're giving away the secret! :evil: :evil: :-D
Pete
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Too late Pete! I already ordered some. Probably be here tomorrow.
Thanks Rex! This will probably eliminate some of the nasty black buggers that you can get when welding the thin wall stuff.
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I use nitrogen to backpurge stainless TIG and much cheaper then argon. (only works for stainless backpurge though) You can also use copper sheet protecting backside of weld and then use gas lens to get good welds with a bit of practice.
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Rob,
Thank you for taking the time (on a work day) to show myself and my brothers the progress that you have made in a short period of time.
At this rate you should not have any problem making your August goal for Speedweek. The build is surely impressive. Keep up the good work.
Regards,
Dave Gray
# 3611
56 Corvette
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Dave, thank you and your brothers very much for stopping by. I always enjoy our conversations.
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This must be mental illness but I spent my New Years Eve alone at the shop working on the liner instead of whatever.
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I got roped into going to a party. I would have much rather been in the shop.
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If its an illness it's present in Aus too, peaceful evening welding.
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not too many with Salt Fever will be suffuring from Alum. Flu this morning ---what sticks in the MUD we must be---boring, boring, boring lol :-D
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Sounds like time well spent by all. Have a happy and fast new year all. :cheers:
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WOW! Super job! Looks Fantastic! Nice work Eric! Thanks for the great write up! How did you...? Why is the...?
Just practicing for when someone(Blue)decides to post the pictures and explanations of the body build process... :-D
Happy New Year!
Now let's see em!
:cheers:
Dan
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Looking good, Rob!
I'm going to be around for a couple of days, at the end of next week. It's been a while since we chatted-you up for some company for a couple of hours?
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Buddy,
We are definitely looking forward to your visit!
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Had good day today. Worked on solidworks for tooling for intake ducts and released the dxfs to the waterjet.
Made a block off plate for the iac motor in the throttle body. Then made (4) out of the (7) dry sump lines.
We hope to be able to fire the engine and test trans and rearend within about two weeks, Lord willing.
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Rob, it was great seeing you again! The car is more impressive in person than on this build thread!
I can't wait to see it on the salt!
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The compliments that you receive on the build are impressive.
The speed with which you have done it is A M A Z I N G.
Good Job.
FREUD
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The compliments that you receive on the build are impressive.
The speed with which you have done it is A M A Z I N G.
Good Job.
FREUD
It doesn't feel like its going very fast for me. I'm depressed about our progress. Work has picked up and is really cutting into our liner progress but Praise the Lord, we have work! Could be the other way around. Everybody that has done this before knows that the little details will kill us if we don't stay diligent through the next couple months.
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Btw, thanks for all the compliments from everybody.
It has been a real blessing that so many guys from the board have actually come by the shop for a visit.
Other news-
The SCTA tech committee approved our 21" dia solid front tire design with the only stipulation that we come up with an acceptable program to inspect wheels between runs and events. This is a big hurdle. I will be releasing the drawings to a suitable machine shop this week. Raw material will be over $500 a piece. Ouch.
This week we finished plumbing the oil system, removed all tanks and cleaned them inside and out, made a new lower profile vent system for the fuel tank, finished plumbing the intercooler including mounting and wiring waterpumps, and got the wiring to about the 75% point. Javier has the machine work about 95% done with the front suspension pieces.
Tomorrow I plan to finish the exhaust and test the oil system / set the pressure with bypass valve.
Hope to fire engine on Tuesday, Lord willing.
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you guys are on a roll :cheers:
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Hi Rob
How are your body panels coming along, looking forward to seeing them mounted in place
Don
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I will put a post together soon with pics showing body progress and how we did it.
Small milestone today. We have a working oil system!
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[
The SCTA tech committee approved our 21" dia solid front tire design with the only stipulation that we come up with an acceptable program to inspect wheels between runs and events. This is a big hurdle.
[/quote]
I thought I remembered you saying aluminum billets?
Any way you can rig a portable zyglo set-up? Maybe in a blocked off area in the corner or tapered nose of the trailer?
Jim
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One thing that may be an easy nondestructive test of the wheels would be to to get an audio signature on each wheel by striking it lightly with a ball peen hammer. Any small crack would change the tone. This may even be able to be done without removal from the car but it is a long shot. I bet there is an app out there for an iPhone that might do this for us. Brandon come up with this and I think it is a good idea.
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WOW! Just read the entire thread. Great project Rob! Looks like it's gonna be way cool! Keep up the good work! :cheers:
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You can get some off-the-shelf software for your laptop, and an accelerometer. You are looking for FFT spectrum analyzer that include a raster display function. The raster function will let you see clear ringing frequencies and harmonics, after the initial "all frequency saturation" of the strike.
The quality of the result is more dependant on the accelerometer and signal conditioner, which can be the most expensive part. You must mechanically clamp to the wheel, and test set points for comparison to your baseline displays. Use the printout function to save the baselines. Choose 0 dbG = .001 G so you can compare logarithmic values of the amplitude. This will let you keep more "on the screen range" during ring decay.
Running in raster mode, you'll quickly learn to see the true ringing characteristics of each wheel. By keeping an ongoing record of the test points data, you will develop a log that could certainly show when a significant anamoly has been spotted.
The trick is to learn to freeze the raster during the strongest ringing, and then take top line to 2d for frequency and harmonics viewing. If it cracks, there will be a whole new set of harmonics that were not there before. The sample instance is NOT extremely time critical during raster view. Decay rate is only for amplitude, not frequencies. If you know a Diagnostic Master Technician at a local Toyota dealer, they were
all trained to use the basic FFT Spectrum Analyzer that came with their original diagnostic test equipment. Some of the dealers will still have operating equipment, even after 20 years. I know that some technicians have purchased laptop based analyzers for their own use.
Interesting idea, I think. Note that salt accululation on the wheel will not change the frequency of aluminum ringing, only the amplitude. That should not prevent a tracking and diagnosis record.
JimL
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Careful, Jim--Sounds as though you have volunteered yourself for a part time job!! :-D
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I'll bite- why did Toyota dealers need spectrum analyzers? :?
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Because its cheaper to fix a bad CV joint than to replace 5 complete sets of wheels and tires, on the same car, that was already bought back for the same complaint! True story....they flew me and my FFT to another area to find out why the dealer couldnt fix the car.
As the cars got quieter and smoother, all the little things that used to be masked or ignored became the big complaint problems. No one had ever bothered to train techs how to figure out what component was the root cause of a problem condition. I was the supervisor on the development of the new (for 1994 model year) OBD II scantool. I had done a lot of work in the field, using spectrum analysis to find conditions ranging from radiator hose routing/shape issues to heater fan cyclic drone. (That turned out to be a cost saving manufacturing process where it was cheaper to produce the squirrel cage with a nice geometrically even number of blades, and of course the motor armature has to have an even number of segments for the two brushes. Unfortunately, the customers and many techs were convinced they were hearing a bad right front wheel bearing. You can put a lot of wheel bearings in a car, trying to fix the heater fan noise.)
Anyway, there was an opportunity to put better equipment, and better training, in the technicians toolbox. Those were exciting years for the techs, with OBD II datastreams to read and analyze, the FFT function, and a full breakout box kit that could look at cruise control, automatic a/c, and more. It even had an oscilloscope which could select from many different signals or be used with an autoprobe.
We put a lot of emphasis on understanding what is supposed to vibrate, and where the transmission path of vibration should not be. Radiator hoses, heater hoses, wire harness bundles, etc are really common mistakes made by enginners and home builders, for example. I can get real boring, so I will stop now.
Rob, PM me if you want to talk. I am still not certain this will be very clear in aluminum. Large blocks of aluminum often have thermoclines during the pour, which might affect your test results. Keep in mind, I dont claim to be an engineer...I just got stuck into the job because somebody had to do it and I think I looked expendable.
Regards, JimL
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I may be over simplifying things a bit, but could you just do the old "wipe them down with dye, wipe the dye off, and take a good hard look at them to see if the dye stuck in any cracks" trick?
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Hi Rob
In 68' i worked in a engine shop building Can - Am engines, John Cannon was running low on bucks so after each race he would go to our cracked crank's dept.
John would pick up each crank and ring it with a hammer and put in the best sounding of the bunch, well that year it rained at Laguna Seca and he won that race with a cracked crank and never broke one.
Just another cool racing story that makes this stuff so great, you could write a few books on all the neat storys like this one.
Don
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JimL GM was having the same kind of problems---on of the reason GM (corrections) used SVC (speed volume control) was to make sure the radio volume went up with speed because folks were hearing a lot more wind noise than they were use to. On Astro vans also primary reason for the fiberglass rear springs be cause it was UNIBODY!
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Sparty;
IIRC, the first car radio volume/speed control appeared on a Ford Thunderbird in about 1956 (?).
If you have your aluminum billet x-rayed you might find which ones look the cleanest internally before you invest in machining.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Having your alum stock x-rayed is a great idea, the stuff coming from Korea and China is notorious for internal lapse and voids. It needs to be perfectly clear, better yet make sure it comes from a US mill.
I must be Neil's "yes man" second post that I followed him on to say that I agree with him!!
Rex
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If you have your aluminum billet x-rayed you might find which ones look the cleanest internally before you invest in machining.
I think the better plan is to request ASTM grade A certified material from your metal supplier.
Gas porosity, shrinkage porosity, inclusions, and cracks are graded A-D. Grade D castings lose 30-40% in strength. The reference radiographs in ASTM E155 are the standard against which these grades are judged. Grade A material is sold at a premium.
You still need to have the finished part x-rayed, ultrasonic tested, and dye penetrant tested. Having those records will make the tech inspector happy.
Inspecting between runs can only be a visual test. The time it takes to do any other test rules them out. Between events a Zyglo test should do.
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JimL- not boring at all. Quite interesting.
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JimL- not boring at all. Quite interesting.
I agree!
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JimL it is amazing all of the technology a good tech or salesperson is exposed to in the various parts of the transportation industry---thanks for sharing :cheers:
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Still not running yet but it's very very close.
Some of you may have already seen some of these pics but for those who have not been following the project that closely, I will try to explain how we have built the body parts.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/d09a1342.jpg)
First step was for me to section the solid works model into 12" segment and 6" segments where more detail was required. Then I could release dxf formatted drawings to the water jet guy.with instruction to cut them from 5mm plywood that I supplied him from Lowes. I then shipped them to Eric.
Note that there is 1.5" square locating feature that keeps proper alignment of the segments.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/2f115512.jpg)
Eric then painted all outside edges of the plywood black so that it would contrast with the 2 part foam during the sanding operations.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/c4fedcee.jpg)
They were then laid out on large sheet of plywood which had a 2x2 (1.5) secured to it. Eric could then layout and cut the bases (right and left).
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/44e5a5a0.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/070bdaac.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/b3996b0b.jpg)
Segments are then secured to base.
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(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/2f2bc53f.jpg)
Cardboard was then fitted between the segments to minimize foam consumption.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/9244d91f.jpg)
Foam added between segments.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/CDF5CDFF-E90B-46DC-B909-D87C1C7E1BF4-2676-0000046926EFBCB8.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/03e6b298.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/84843979.jpg)
Then foam is the sanded to shape of body using segment edges as guide.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/E64CCB55-9742-4CBF-986A-41702BD2669E-2676-0000046916B41E10.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/D1C28510-4F0B-4154-A3CF-61D815512F59-2676-000004690631836E.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/AD4D8DBC-6507-4293-865D-F16F12D7A963-2676-00000468FD9B4802.jpg)
Conventional body working methods are used to smooth and final shape the mold.
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(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/2012-08-27203701.jpg)
PVA is sprayed onto the mold as a release agent.
Looks sweet, huh?
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/2012-08-27203656.jpg)
Composite body panel is laid up on the male mold. Material was just big enough that no seems we're necessary. Peel ply was used as the final sheet of layup.
This drastically helps reduce resin percentage and promotes more consistent panel thickness. It gives results close to vacuum bagging with an added benefit of a surface finish that promotes adhesion of final bodywork or additional composite work for whatever.
I know this is a very abbreviated description of how this was done but I don't know what Is common knowledge and what is a trade secret on how Eric does these things.
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Amazing work, Eric and Rob!
Should go very nicely with the rest of the stuff you have done! :cheers:
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I stopped by Eric's place last summer on my way to Bonneville, and he was in the "sanding the foam" phase that Rob shows in his picture, we must remember that Eric is in Reno and August in Reno is kind of hot, I think it was around 105 deg F when I was there. One of the things that we all need to remember is that this car is being designed and built to take advantage of NLF, Natural Laminar Flow, which means that the body, at least to approx the 60% length must be smoother than a baby's a$$!! We are talking no stickers, no two tone paint, no nothing except an extremely smooth surface for the air to "rub" against. So once the actual body is pulled from the mold there will be (or have been) endless hours of block sanding to get the required surface smoothness. It will be beautiful and fast!
Rex
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Very nice.
Is that the body being thrown straight off that plug or is that mould Eric is throwing and the body will be made from the inside of that?
I am doing similar but the piece I'm throwing is the body.
Thanks for sharing.
jon
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Wow :cheers:
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Thank you for sharing, looks great!
I've got no clue on any of the process it takes to do this, please keep posting.
It may have been posted already but are you shooting for Speedweek 2013?
The speed, quality and engineering of this build is outstanding!
:cheers:
Dan
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Jon,
Eric is making the body directly from the male plug. He is a very experienced composite fabricator and told me that done right you can do a body this way and not have a lot of sanding to do to make it smooth.
Rex
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geez, that's a whole lot of work and a whole lot of nice.
very good craftsmanship.
good luck.
bf
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Jon,
Eric is making the body directly from the male plug. He is a very experienced composite fabricator and told me that done right you can do a body this way and not have a lot of sanding to do to make it smooth.
Rex
Thanks Rex
I hope to show what can be working from the other end of the experience/skill spectrum over the next 12 months.
I'm going to try and do mine in one piece to stagger the joins.
Thanks
jon
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Thank you for sharing, looks great!
I've got no clue on any of the process it takes to do this, please keep posting.
It may have been posted already but are you shooting for Speedweek 2013?
The speed, quality and engineering of this build is outstanding!
:cheers:
Dan
Thanks Dan,
Yes, we are planning on Speedweek 2013 to debut the car.
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Very nice.
Is that the body being thrown straight off that plug or is that mould Eric is throwing and the body will be made from the inside of that?
I am doing similar but the piece I'm throwing is the body.
Thanks for sharing.
jon
The plan now is to pull female molds off of the finished car so we can expedite car #2. As of now, the fuselage w tail cone are the only male molds.
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Hi Rob,
Thanks for posting, have read the whole 30 plus pages and love what you are doing, breaking away from conventional thinking, developing your own take on the best way to “skin the cat” and actually DOING it. Well done.
I have been thinking about the way the plug and mold are made for the body and have thought of making my body differently and would be interested in your (and others) comments.
Instead of getting the “ribs” Water Jet cut for the male mold, would it be feasible to cut a reverse (outside) of these and lay them out as you have done and use this directly as the female mold, similar to how you have made the wing molds.
This would mean that a plug would not be needed to be built and as the shape has already been determined in SolidWorks the dimensions should be correct.
Also because the body is taken directly from the Water Jet shape, not from a second generation shape (plug to mould to body) the shape should suffer less from pulling and distortion?
Ian...
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I've used a crude method like this for repairing small parts.
http://home.brisnet.com.au/~jmiller/leinfam/repairing_1.html
The inside compound curves are so hard to work, I just didnt try. Instead, I built below finish to allow room for proper final shape. As I said, its crude, but you can do a fast matching repair when pieces are missing from one side of a component. The repair is very strong and this bike is still on the road. New parts were over $1200, repair was about $30.
May be a useful trick to know, some day. You dont need much to do it, either; most of the matrials are in auto parts stores, general stores, office supply, etc.
Sorry about the side track Rob, your stuff is a lot more exciting!
Regards, JimL
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Hi Ian
Trying to sand the inside of the foam mold would drive you nuts before you ever got it done, the sandpaper corners would be diging into the foam all the time.
Sanding on the outside of the foam master the corners of the paper are off the surface, plus you can get down low to the surface and sight down it and see how you doing for the hi's & low's'
Don
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Hi Ian. Thanks for the compliments.
Yes, you can do the body the way you described. It is just a bit harder to sand internal compound curves. Also it is a little harder to visualize.
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Got it running.
http://youtu.be/dC3lS5_SGDw
Now we will keep adding the rest of the sensors and neaten up the wiring. Still a big job but it will get simpler as we go.
The engine will need to come out before Eric gets here with the body.
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Huge moment!
Congratulations, love this build!
Well done :cheers:
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Congratulations, your progress is impressive.
jon
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Way to go guys! Congratulations! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Great job Rob and crew! I look forward to seeing it run! :cheers:
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Awesome :cheers:
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Wooo hoooo congrats :cheers: :cheers:
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Hey Rob. Isn't the first fire-up fun? Good job, man. :cheers: Wayno
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Hey Rob. Isn't the first fire-up fun? Good job, man. :cheers: Wayno
Not quite as much fun as usual as this engine has already run in Vinny.
I can tell you that this thing is loud!
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Not quite as much fun as usual as this engine has already run in Vinny.
And Vinny ran very well at Maxton :cheers:
Can't wait to see what it will do in this car.
Gregg
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Congrats! It sounds pissed off and that is a GOOD thing! :cheers:
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Hi Ian
Trying to sand the inside of the foam mold would drive you nuts before you ever got it done, the sandpaper corners would be diging into the foam all the time.
Sanding on the outside of the foam master the corners of the paper are off the surface, plus you can get down low to the surface and sight down it and see how you doing for the hi's & low's'
Don
Hi Ian. Thanks for the compliments.
Yes, you can do the body the way you described. It is just a bit harder to sand internal compound curves. Also it is a little harder to visualize.
Makes total sense, will stick with, plug to mold to body.... thanks guys,
Look forward to the finish...... Good to hear it start congrats.....
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Top Stuff :-D :cheers: :-D
Pete
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Productive night tonight!
Randy and Chris worked on wiring by eliminating all unused wires in the FAST xfi harnesses and wired up the egt gauge.
Ted and Jon worked on the molds for the air inlet ducts and got them to about the 50% mark.
Ray and Matt worked on exact placement of waste gates and started cutting and fitting the 2" stainless tubing.
Dave welded up the stinger and it looks great as always when Dave welds on it.
I cooked the dinner (pulled pork sandwiches and veggie tray) then ran around the shop like a chicken with head cut off. LOL!
Tomorrow, actually this morning, I will head up and visit Buddy on his rig. Better quit typing and get a couple hours sleep. :-)
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Keep feeding them like that and you'll be fighting off the volunteers!!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Jon,
Eric is making the body directly from the male plug. He is a very experienced composite fabricator and told me that done right you can do a body this way and not have a lot of sanding to do to make it smooth.
Rex
Yup, it can be done and will save the expense of a female mold. I guess he's using a very fine woven fabric as his last layer before the peel ply. The only problem I see in doing it this way are pin holes (surface bubbles) but as he's a pro that shouldn't be a problem.
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I just went back a few pages and saw all the work that went into producing the plug. Enough to make me want to head for the hills. Only because I've been there. I know I'm not a lone sufferer now. That's very nice work and the composites guy should get a lifetime's supply of the "Good" stuff. :cheers: :cheers:
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Got waste gates fitted up and tacked in.
Left side.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/99F6D3FA-6A5B-412F-8CF6-88C3C96CDC6F-3386-000002303A5FC60D_zps720a5222.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/A5B4E586-BABA-4521-BBAA-F563CE310038-3386-0000023030AD874D_zpsee5b3a5e.jpg)
Right side
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/34F1A3B2-A69C-4588-9382-A7C4EE13C5A0-3386-00000230363A9500_zps39d50d1d.jpg)
This is the right side gate but it is a view from my phone held against the engine plate.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/16BC4D37-296D-4A6F-9376-3C12FD3174CC-3386-0000023033DB080B_zps738a70fa.jpg)
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Brandon also made some pretty good progress with the wiring.
Plywood is just temp until we are happy with where everything goes.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/0808F576-81EF-4DC1-B2C5-4D374C2A1732-3386-00000234C0D45696_zps23edb574.jpg)
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We also made a little progress with some composite work.
Here are some pics of the construction of the molds of the air inlet ducts.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/59E91DE5-CADF-4F06-9202-A0FFF9073F16-3386-000002378BF4811E_zpsd504fdf2.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/823A5C3F-E3F8-42DC-97EB-DEC83D1EA68B-3386-000002379B2581D5_zpsf488149b.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/3FB281BC-AD7E-4337-8D82-00AF157C4F58-3386-000002378F44C6AC_zpscf33ec8f.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/A2040187-880F-43D3-996F-5F9DEBABC2E8-3386-000002365F2CD382_zps5022d0ce.jpg)
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Looking good Rob, as always.
Are you having any slip joints or similar for thermal expansion on the wastegate piping?
Cheers
jon
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Jon,
We have not done in the past but I like that idea. Let me see what I can get to work here. Maybe a stainless bellows placed between the gate and the exhaust pipe.
My other applications had longer sections of piping that could flex a bit during thermal expansion. This one is tight. Thanks for bringing this up.
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Rob, it looks good. I'm not trying to be a know it all and hope you don't think I'm interfering in your project but I have a tip on making ducts like you are, using foam. I used to do them the hard way but came up with a solution that blew my mind all those years ago. I made the dummy ducts from Polystyrene and once I was happy with the shape I added a layer of peel ply using Epoxy obviously and then went with the glass or Carbon fabric. Once the job was cured I poured Acetone down into the duct and it chowed the Polystyrene. All that was left was the removal of the peel ply. The Acetone you would use is very little and not enough to damage the part because it evaporates so quickly. You could do the job without the peel ply but then you need to sand the inside. Saves on complicated molds.
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Yes, we know that trick but the mold is consumable and we plan on building a couple of these cars, so it works out better to have a mold.
Don't worry about sounding like a know it all. Many times guys have mentioned what some would think to obvious but it was not to me.
One good thing about your system is that the part comes off in one piece.
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Eric (aka Blue) and Richard arrived with both halves of fuselage after 2400 miles of bad weather.
Also brought flaps, wings and a lot of tools.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/44E68A18-30C6-44CF-B160-57706EF842F8-7678-000004EA50146766_zps98215a3d.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/1941D0B6-0FDC-4AF3-B6CD-1ABD77858984-7678-000004EA57788132_zpse30271a3.jpg)
We also had another milestone today as we mounted up the front suspension and some low speed wheels / tires and it actually rolls! We have a roller!
_blank"><img src="http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/F80CE030-A9FD-454E-BCBB-40172E1FAE1B-7678-000004EA2EF4ACCD_zps80f2652a.mp4" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" />[/url]
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It looks good but we need more pics :-D. 2400 miles is a stretch in good weather!!. You guys rock. LSR guys are a breed apart and it's a tough act to follow.
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Go to http://www.carbinitelsr.com/ and you can see all the pictures Mike.
Over here 2400 miles is a pretty good trip but still very doable with pretty good highways all the way. North America's pretty well laced with good routes wherever you want to go.
Great to see another big step for Rob and crew. Congratulations Guys. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Try to get some more pics taken and post today.
Going to be a busy couple of weeks.
Front tires and wheels are space saver spares from Mini Cooper for very low speed testing, moving around the shop, and show. We cut the centers out of the 15x4 wheels and welded in custom 1/4" plate waterjetted centers. They came out way better than expected. I would not be afraid to put some Goodyear 21" LSR tires in these wheels to do some 1 mile events.
Lots of good help this week from Dave Gray! He pushed me to get the wheels just right. Also Ray Vinson has been at the shop helping with fabrication and machining. I feel blessed. :-) lookin forward to what today has in store for us.
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Hi Rob
Very nice looking body and that will be a big day when it is all mounted, on a smaller note it look like you have teflon tape on your oil line fitting to lube the turbo shaft.
Do you think the hi heat in that area will cook that teflon tape?
Maybe a hi-temp aircraft sealer?
I never liked that tape as it is easy to have too much and it gets in your hose and that is bad news, i always used thick red Loctite instant gasket instead great stuff.
Don
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Thanks Pete, I just checked the site. Awesome.
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x2 on Teflon tape. Junk.
But man that body is sexy! :cheers:
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I disagree-- Teflon tape is OK and it holds up to a relatively high temperature. The key to success is wrapping the tape around the threads in the right direction, putting on just enough to seal, and not allowing the tape edges to get near the end of the fitting where it can get into the lines. Winding the tape on the threads with a little tension lets it seat down into the threads so it doesn't interfere with screwing the fittings together.
Loctite is also good; they also make a "hydraulic sealant" that I use when I have a fitting that I don't envision ever taking loose again.
As they say "You pays yer money and yer takes yer choice".
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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At the Riverside 69' Trans-an race i had 2 engines out there and a tapered pipe plug in the intake was leaking, so the team wrench used the tape to seal the leak
He wound up splitting the cast alum manifold because of the taper in the pipe plug just forced it to split as you can't feel it getting tight like you can with a sealer. The teflon acts like a lube.
So the #2 factory team car sat in the pits during the race as no time to swap a manifold
That tape is not good
Don
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Finesse, Don-- finesse. Some people can fu*k up an anvil. :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I learned my plumbing from an old USAF wrench that worked on SR71s. He did all the cars in our hotrod shop. He never used tape, there is always a better sealant these days.
Back to Robs thread.
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Rob,
The body looks great!!! I know how much work Eric has put into it and you and your guys on the chassis and engine. It is really going to be great to see them joined together. The "fun" has just begun!
Rex
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Trent,
Weren't SR71s noted for fuel leaks on the flight line? Maybe tape would have helped.
Neil,
Just like my father taught me, wind with the threads, use just enough to do the job.
DW
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Trent,
Weren't SR71s noted for fuel leaks on the flight line? Maybe tape would have helped.
Neil,
Just like my father taught me, wind with the threads, use just enough to do the job.
DW
Hence the reason they kept the Mexican on call! I KNEW someone would bring up that fact :roll:
Rob, do you guys have a color scheme picked out? Like I said, this is if anything a great looking car! :cheers:
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Great too see the progress Rob and co. Really looking forward to seeing this car debut. Another solution to the same old problem of not going fast enough and I reckon your answer is going to be really interesting :cheers:
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A the NW Reunion a few years ago the Friday night speaker was the pilot that had logged the most hours at the controls of the SR71. He told us that the plane was leaky -- really leaking when static on the flight line. When it was flying at speed the wind resistance was so high that the heat made all the plane get so hot that things expanded and gaps shrank and so on -- it was tight at speed.
Also -- the SR71 would commonly take off with a small load of fuel and then top up when flying -- easier to get a part-empty plane into the air without spending tons of fuel to get going.
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I don't think I could have picked a worse week to come to Cancun! The scuba is great, weather is WAY better and I have Tony's avitars walking around all day...still, I can't wait to get back to the shop and see it first hand. Save something for me to do Rob!!! :)
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More pics of today's progress.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/763B27D4-68F7-4AD0-9C56-AEAF61B138F0-8247-0000053CCA029CAA_zps5afd2f40.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/09137F95-EF06-40FB-A3CF-FBB158A23417-8247-0000053CC8383C33_zps046a3519.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/6F201219-A31E-4472-AAE4-600E292D65AC-8247-0000053CBFB36629_zps13b9c604.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/EB4F6B2C-BE05-4295-9A56-CA1FA97D6B1B-8247-0000053CB5A0B64A_zpsfbf8a933.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/3229980A-F97C-471C-BF5D-95F8F954A446-8247-0000053CB37F5376_zpsb6ed1263.jpg)
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Ooh Yes!!!!! What can I say?. Awesome.
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Hume knows exactly how you feel.
FREUD
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Hume knows exactly how you feel.
FREUD
But without the files you'll never know perxactly how Hume feels! :-o :-D
Rob, your timing is great for our Project 550 withdrawals! :cheers:
Ohio Mile?? :?
-
Maybe Ohio Mile.
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We have such a great team of people here. By far our greatest asset! I feel bad that Brandon can't be here. He will be back in a couple of days.
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I'm envious in a nice way. It's good that you have a great crew. I can't even get motivation from buddies over here.
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Maybe Ohio Mile.
When, When... I gotta see this thing in person. It's bad enough the the Traget 550 folks "might" show in Ohio, we'll have to make the trip even if Amy's car isn't ready. Now ya'll are throwing a teaser that we'll have to see. Luv'n the the body shape Mr Freyman.
Frank.
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Looking great Rob, thanks for sharing.
jon
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Maybe Ohio Mile.
When, When... I gotta see this thing in person. It's bad enough the the Traget 550 folks "might" show in Ohio, we'll have to make the trip even if Amy's car isn't ready. Now ya'll are throwing a teaser that we'll have to see. Luv'n the the body shape Mr Freyman.
Frank.
Won't be the April event. Lol. Too much to do before then.
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Worked on the body retaining features today. Engineered, drawn and released.
There will be no external fastener until after the canopy. Should take less than 5 min to remove entire nose section.
We are now in the middle of stripping car back down to bare frame for body mounting. We need to reach through from opposite sides of the car to fit up each halve. Sort of hard to do with engine and turbos in the way.
Sorry, no good pics today.
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In the photos you had the body in two halves. Are you bonding the front sections and having the rear split down the middle?.
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WOOOOO I like that electronics tray :-)
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WOOOOO I like that electronics tray :-)
Thank you! There are many, many...too many hours in that tray. Still needs a little cleanup but we'll take care of that when we transfer it to the permanent aluminum tray.
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Can't wait to see this again!
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In the photos you had the body in two halves. Are you bonding the front sections and having the rear split down the middle?.
After both halves are bonded together, we will cut the front half off at the firewall which is behind the drivers seat. Then we will cut a new parting line at the belt line from firewall back. Then cut one more parting line behind the fuel filler neck creating a separate panel over the engine which will be the service panel.
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Here is our wiring harness! LOL!
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/9879C29C-6CE1-46EB-A882-1D952E8E1009-8247-000005D731034BAA_zpsfe54f39c.jpg)
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Had to remove engine, trans etc to mount the body.
Took about 3 hours at moderate pace.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/4A9F47D5-B278-4D33-9771-FD2813FF044A-8247-000005D73F9D90BF_zps802a1b00.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/8C7420D2-0347-4722-9BC2-4E160AC48AC2-8247-000005D73D5068AC_zps05e55e2e.jpg)
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Here is our wiring harness! LOL!
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/9879C29C-6CE1-46EB-A882-1D952E8E1009-8247-000005D731034BAA_zpsfe54f39c.jpg)
AHHHHHHH!!! I am not going to be able to sleep tonight! I hope it fits back in, there is a mountain of time in that "harness" :)
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The only problem I see with the wiring is the wires seem to be different colors... shouldn't it all be yellow... :roll: oops, wrong thread, that's the down under lakester.... all these cool cars are so confusing...
:cheers:
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The guy in the photo looks like he's the guy that has to do the wiring!. He looks like I feel. Great build.
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The guy in the photo is Richard. He is a master craftsman and drove Top Fuel dragsters for years as late as 2009. He has been 314mph in the quarter mile already. It's an honor to have his help on this project.
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Rob,
Thanks for letting me give you a hand with the car last week. I wish that I
could have stayed longer. I have to tell you that most of what you and Eric (engineers)
told me went over my head, but I did manage to understand a little of the magic. Also
please tell Eric thanks for the tips on my flying brick (Corvette).
Regards
Dave Gray
Carlisle, Pa.
#3611
56 Corvette
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but that's a really nice brick, gray.
franey
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Rob,
Thanks for letting me give you a hand with the car last week. I wish that I
could have stayed longer. I have to tell you that most of what you and Eric (engineers)
told me went over my head, but I did manage to understand a little of the magic. Also
please tell Eric thanks for the tips on my flying brick (Corvette).
Regards
Dave Gray
Carlisle, Pa.
#3611
56 Corvette
Thanks for all the help Dave! I'm glad you pushed me to keep working on the front wheels to get them straighter. Too bad you could not stay longer. As it stands now Eric will be here another 12 days if you want to come out for another visit.
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I know Rob has been busy working on the car, taking care of business and running around with/for the family, thought I would throw out a quick update.
Both halves of the body finally made it onto the car at the same time!
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0387_zps2330c66b.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0386_zps022b66ee.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0389_zps3466acce.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0390_zps5180d418.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0391_zps27514913.jpg)
The process is pretty straight forward. We slide one side on and check the fitment with the mounting points and make sure the center alignment is correct, then repeat for the other half. Most of the last day or so has been about checking the fit, remove the body, grind/re-work the mounting points and retest. It is amazing how well everything has fit up so far!
Once the fitment is completed, Eric will bond the left and right sides together, then cut the appropriate lines to remove the shell in its final form.
Here are some other random pics of the progress.
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0394_zpsa833a1ef.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0396_zps0596eb21.jpg)
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Do you plan to cover the exposed axles with an airfoil- shaped cover?
Regards, Neil
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Dam n I love that car! Tell Eric he needs to hurry and get his done-I have an engine for him! :evil:
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just looking at those profile shots sorta says it all
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Do you plan to cover the exposed axles with an airfoil- shaped cover?
Regards, Neil
Neil,
Here is a modeled view of the final product.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/12152010iso1.jpg)
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In the recently posted video about the development of the "Blue Flame Special", it was said that the original wheel fairings were removed because it made the car unstable with even a little bit of yaw. It was a really nice video and I'd recommend seeing it if you haven't already.
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Having met and visited with this team of professionals I am confident they have studied as well as tested all aerodynamic options for this design and have proven to themselves and others it is not only safe and stable but one of the best looking liners to come forth lately. Good job you guys, keep it up and see you out there soon.
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nice going on your build.
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Rob and crew,
Absolutely fabulous with the body on! The best car ever! Thanks for taking the time to keep us posted.
Geo
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Wow, that car is about 2/3rds the size I thought it would be!?
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Wow, that car is about 2/3rds the size I thought it would be!?
Well the stinger (tail cone) is still not on and that will add some length to the car.
It will be 28 ft total length. I know this goes against conventional LSR thinking but for the the targeted 500 - 550 mph range, this design would have been better to be shorter and fatter.
We have a fineness ratio of 9:1 on the fuselage. 5:1 would be even lower drag even if displaced a bit more volume. Live and learn. Funny part is that it looks faster the way that it is.
Much of the design is governed by the 30 inch dia rear tires as they are the biggest available. It would be next to impossible to get any rake into the fuselage if the car was any fatter. We would have to go to independent rear end or something to get the rear of the car up any higher than it is.
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The front suspension looks like it is going to work well. Javier did the most beautiful machine work on the major components. I promise many pics when I get everything back from the finishers.
The suspension has 1.25 of total travel with .5" droop.
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Post #1 September 2010
Target of 400mph
Today
the targeted 500 - 550 mph range
Reality
A/BGS Speed by Spectre A. Rosenbaum 08/10 356.645
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I've learned over the years to always aim high and put some safety factor into your project. :-)
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Post #1 September 2010
Target of 400mph
Today
the targeted 500 - 550 mph range
Reality
A/BGS Speed by Spectre A. Rosenbaum 08/10 356.645
Gotta love his optimism!
Go Rob go! :cheers:
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If I was to build a car to go 1000mph, I would shoot for design speed of about 1300mph as history shows that most LSR cars never quite make design speed.
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... fineness ratio of 9:1 on the fuselage. 5:1 would be even lower drag...
:-o For real?
Edit: Oops... dumb question...
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Great build, shoot for the stars and if you miss you will land on the moon. Which is still very fast, and I cant wait to see the throttles opened on this rocket. :cheers: Tony
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Rob, On your car the turbo inlet down low is not as much a problem for you as it will be for me becaause of my front tires will be kicking up salt any suggestions on how to keep salt out of the turbos?
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Sparky, let me thinks about it a bit. That is a challenge with Lakesters as there is an issue salt splash from the front tires. We had that problem with the Lakester that we built in 09.
We were getting salt splashed into the turbos but I'm not sure that we were getting much while on course. I think most of it came during exiting the course,
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Hi Rob
Don't they have draged turn outs that connect to the return road, so you don't have to run over those little crusty ridges that run everywhere?
Don
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Yabut, you don't always find one where you need it or at the speed you want and can overrun it.
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Hi Rob
Don't they have draged turn outs that connect to the return road, so you don't have to run over those little crusty ridges that run everywhere?
Don
Don, yes they drag turnouts... some are gentle curves off the course, but still intersect the return road at 90 degrees, probably work great if you are in a roadster or a bike... not so much if you are in a vehicle that can't make a 90 degree turn in 30 ft.... One of these days someone will drag them so they just angle over to the return road... it is not important for the turn out to make the race car turn around and go the other way. Based on the tracks you see, most can't do it anyway.
Most of us would rather drive through the crusties with the race car on the trailer. :cheers:
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Hi Rob
Don't they have draged turn outs that connect to the return road, so you don't have to run over those little crusty ridges that run everywhere?
Don
Don, yes they drag turnouts... some are gentle curves off the course, but still intersect the return road at 90 degrees, probably work great if you are in a roadster or a bike... not so much if you are in a vehicle that can't make a 90 degree turn in 30 ft.... One of these days someone will drag them so they just angle over to the return road... it is not important for the turn out to make the race car turn around and go the other way. Based on the tracks you see, most can't do it anyway.
Most of us would rather drive through the crusties with the race car on the trailer. :cheers:
You also get salt thrown up during the run off the exposed fronts on the laksters. It was clearly evident on our front axle where the salt had sand blasted a very distinct line. It appeared that salt was thrown forward after a trip around the wheels and the car drove into it. There were other areas around the turbo inlets on the lakster that gave clear indication we had injested some salt as well.
It has been said on here before, but it is interesting where you find that salt after a run. It really does get into some interesting places.
You almost need a reverse intake, maybe on the top of the car, to prevent intake of salt on a lakester.
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Hi BBarn
I was thinking of a reverse inlet too, my freind Bob Patterson has a Allison powered Unlimited hydro and when they started to run the turbines the salt water in Mission Bay it really messed up the engines.
Bob told me what they did to solve the problem.
As i recall the turbine guys built intake scoops with air diverters inside the scoop to keep the salt water out and air in , maybe a style like that for the turbo intake where the salt sticks to some panels and lets the air in.
Don
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Hi Rob
Don't they have draged turn outs that connect to the return road, so you don't have to run over those little crusty ridges that run everywhere?
Don
Don, yes they drag turnouts... some are gentle curves off the course, but still intersect the return road at 90 degrees, probably work great if you are in a roadster or a bike... not so much if you are in a vehicle that can't make a 90 degree turn in 30 ft.... One of these days someone will drag them so they just angle over to the return road... it is not important for the turn out to make the race car turn around and go the other way. Based on the tracks you see, most can't do it anyway.
Most of us would rather drive through the crusties with the race car on the trailer. :cheers:
There were a couple on course 3 last year that were corkscrews!
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Don, any chance you could get your buddy to hand draw that arrangement so you might share with us.
did it all come through the frt. opening,, water hitst the backwall and drains out the bottom, but the air was drawn out the double wall sides, back near the front opening :? IMNTK
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Hi Sparky
I was just thinking that maybe Bob had some type of deflector too, to keep the salt water out of his turbo on the Allison.
Not sure if he knows what the Turbine guys did as they were the enemy camp to the Piston Packers
Will ask him tommorrow as he might know a boat wrench we can ask for a sketch.
Don
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Due to money constraints, we have decided to partner up with Buddy Walker and run his flathead in this streamliner. Sort of a divide and conquer thing. Our BBC is a bit of a grenade as it is still a stock block and has about a million laps on it. Next year I should be able to put something together that I know will live.
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Due to money constraints, we have decided to partner up with Buddy Walker and run his flathead in this streamliner. Sort of a divide and conquer thing. Our BBC is a bit of a grenade as it is still a stock block and has about a million laps on it. Next year I should be able to put something together that I know will live.
I see - so you'll be running the caddy engine THIS YEAR.
Pit over by us - We'll be the pit with the snowman . . .
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Due to money constraints, we have decided to partner up with Buddy Walker and run his flathead in this streamliner. Sort of a divide and conquer thing. Our BBC is a bit of a grenade as it is still a stock block and has about a million laps on it. Next year I should be able to put something together that I know will live.
I see - so you'll be running the caddy engine THIS YEAR.
Pit over by us - We'll be the pit with the snowman . . .
Jerry Reed is on your crew??? :-D
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The flathead will have a reverse turbo to suck the air out of it to make it last even longer.
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The flathead will have a reverse turbo to suck the air out of it to make it last even longer.
Well, I understand running 10"-15" of vacuum can result in a 3-10 HP increase...... :-D
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Buddy and Rob,
This is a pretty aggressive move this late in the year. Lots of things to make happen when you "switch horses in the middle of the stream." I assume that you almost have to run the Cad with the top mounted 6-71 so there is going to be some big time additional body work to get the bumps and notches of the injector scoop and blower covered and "aero-ed up". Love the idea sure hope you have a reserve of 36 hour days!
Rex
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We are going to a twin turbo setup. Same bodywork. Actually looks like a much better fit. :-)
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We are going to a twin turbo setup. Same bodywork. Actually looks like a much better fit. :-)
Ron Main, Watch out! :wink:
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Turbo the Flat Cad!! I love it!! Now you need 48 hour days!
Rex
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Amazing anouncement ! April 1st today.... coincidence????
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We are going to a twin turbo setup. Same bodywork. Actually looks like a much better fit. :-)
I've posted about having turbos in 2014, so it really shouldn't surprise anyone! Easier HP, and a lot lower profile!
Turbo the Flat Cad!! I love it!! Now you need 48 hour days!
Rex
Haha! We need that now, and we were only making a 'few mods'!
Amazing anouncement ! April 1st today.... coincidence????
This late in the game, everyday is just another day! :-D
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Amazing anouncement ! April 1st today.... coincidence????
I was just sitting here with my jaw dropped until I looked at the calendar.
Now I just feel silly.
Dave
# 3611
56 Corvette
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April Fools' Day ain't just "another day"...
I guess Ron and George can relax again...
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April Fools' Day ain't just "another day"...
I guess Ron and George can relax again...
Haha! Well, I doubt if we make them nervous, but you heard it here first-I'm sincere about trying to take that title away!
Rob, thanks for playing. We'll let your thread get back to your cool build!
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lol :cheers:
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What are the safety washers that go on the outside of spherical rod end called? Where do I find them? Jegs, Summit?
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I get mine from Jerry Bickle, but others also has them. Tony
http://www.jerrybickel.com/bushings-threaded-clevises-and-washers/washers-1.html
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What are the safety washers that go on the outside of spherical rod end called? Where do I find them? Jegs, Summit?
"Safety Washers", Speedway Motors as well.
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Chassis Shop, they make their from 4130 and are cad plated and accurate and all sizes. www.chassisshop.com.
Rex
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Tony, Thanks, I was actually on Bickle's site (one of my favorite vendors) before I posted but could not find them. Thanks for the link.
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Little video showing front suspension.
http://youtu.be/V6K8T3k1N9s
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Rob, thanks for being so open with your build. We're following with a great deal of interest. Your workmanship is outstanding! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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I watched it. Very interesting. Thanks Rob.
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Nice video Rob. I am so anxious to see the car on it's first
shakedown run. I will be there for sure.
Dave
#3611
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The suspension and steering look spectacular.
You need two front wheels because SCTA says so.
Since you have them aligned, how about 95% weight on the forward wheel and 5% on the back?
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The suspension and steering look spectacular.
You need two front wheels because SCTA says so.
Since you have them aligned, how about 95% weight on the forward wheel and 5% on the back?
Actually, since we are using aluminum rollers, I want to keep them even so they will leave less marks in the salt.
Good thinking though!
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Rob,
The front end looks great! I do suggest that you add an orifice to the flow line for some dampening, my bet is it will be smaller than .030 to be effective. You might want to consider using a pair of flow control valve that have an internal check valve that allows free flow in one direction and controlled flow in the other. You would connect them in series with the "free flow" arrows, which will be stamped on the valves, pointing at each other. This set up will give you the ability to set both compression and rebound dampening. I would also not consider using heavy oil as a method of changing dampening as you will find it is very temp sensitive. Something very thin like ATF or MIL 5606 would give the best results. If you go with the flow control valves they are available with extra fine adjustment which I would recommend. You do not want to use what are know as "pressure compensated" flow controls as they typically require at least 150 psi differential to work. Let me know if you want to go this way I can get the correct part numbers for you and maybe even "free".
Rex
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Rob and team :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Rex, funny you mentioned that. I just ordered some flow control valves from McMaster. They should be here tomorrow morning. I only ordered the double direction flow though. I was wondering if you could do exactly what you said by running the valves in series but opposite directions but that seemed too easy to work. LOL
I come from a radio control car background (1/10 scale dirt oval). After a lot of experimenting, we went back to a single dampened rate (compression and rebound). Let me get them installed tomorrow and see what she feels like with a single comp/rebound adjuster.
I'm glad you have some experience with this. I will probably need your help.
Was a bit rough getting the air burped out of them.
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Here are some pics of the individual pieces of the front suspension.
Javier DeLeon did all the CNC mill work and as you can see it is all very beautiful and the finishes on the bores are awesome. There does not appear to any leaks so far.
Thank you very much Javier!
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/52F7FF9F-34B9-4B0A-BA23-5C582901F262-9123-00000695342310B7.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/44CB4C35-2163-4716-A3EA-793089B72CF6-9123-0000069531AC567E.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/B8F013BD-78BB-463C-9203-AF502D80700B-9123-000006953056B788.jpg)
Hole in top of spindle locator is for welding in a 3/8" pin for die spring pilot.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/47F45F1A-060E-45C7-AF71-C6017B49CBDB-9123-000006952E22D75D.jpg)
Spindle subassembly
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/3A4B9AD0-0DB1-47DB-B0E0-C1098D70E160-9123-00000695298BAB25.jpg)
As soon as we are happy that everything is working like it is supposed to, all steel parts will be ferritic nitrocarburized and teflon treated for surface hardness, corrosion control, smoothness, and appearance. This is the same processed used on all the new nitrogen spring pistons if they are coal black.
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Hi Rob
Front end looking very nice, i see you are still using the teflon tape in the front end hose fittings.
Better throw that stuff away or give to your local plummer as that is what it was made for, not aircraft or racing machines as it can come back and bite you right in the arse.
Don
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Hi Rob
Front end looking very nice, i see you are still using the teflon tape in the front end hose fittings.
Better throw that stuff away or give to your local plummer as that is what it was made for, not aircraft or racing machines as it can come back and bite you right in the arse.
Don
Yeah, I want to change over all the fittings to SAE style o-ring fittings eliminating the need for any kind of thread sealant. I don't know what I was thinking using NPT except I did not have tooling to install SAE ports.
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Hi Rob
Loctite makes a sealant for just about everything a guy would need, might be good to have some of that too for what ever might come up.
Those sales reps are good prople to work with on a project like yours, like samples !!
All it takes is a call or two.
Don
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Rob,
Really like the your front "suspension" design, am planning something similar on my lakester. One thought is to use Bellville washers in place of the die spring, they are pretty much self dampening and you can change spring rates by the way you stack them. I know it has been said before regarding teflon tape but if you use it make sure you do not put it on the first 2-3 threads of a pipe fitting, gives you a better chance to not have it in the system, the Loctite thread seal is the best though. Also like the teflon coating on the suspension parts, I worked on some off shore oil transfer buoys once, a long time ago!, and we teflon coated all of the bolts, washers and nuts for corrosion resistance. Seemed to work as they are still working today.
Rex
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Very nice work as always Rob.
Thanks for sharing.
You don't get any measurable bump steer generated by the main drag link from the bellcrank to the back wheel?
Cheers
jon
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Very nice work as always Rob.
Thanks for sharing.
You don't get any measurable bump steer generated by the main drag link from the bellcrank to the back wheel?
Cheers
jon
Correct, no measurable bump steer. This is one of the reasons I ran the linkage to the back wheel as the link would be longer and would induce less bump during the 1.25" of wheel travel.
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McMaster sells belleville discs. Cheap way to have flexibility over spring rates without buying lots of springs.
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Yeah I thought about Bellevilles but I believe the die spring was better for this application. Used both Bellevilles and die springs in my former occupation.
Tha advantage the die spring had here was that it was simpler and easier to keep centered in spindle without rubbing the bores. I used the Danly brand spring as it is wound from trapezoid shaped wire. During the winding operation, the outside is stretched and ends up in a rectangular cross section. Danly also has a great catalog that makes picking the right spring pretty easy.
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Got the McMaster dampeners (needle valves) installed today. They did nothing originally. Easy to diagnose as I closed the needle valves all the way and the suspension still moved. You guessed it. Air in the system. Figured out a better and easier way to bleed the units and this solved the problem. Now suspension is stiffer and I have total control over the dampening. Seems like1.5 turns out on each valve gave me the feeling I'm looking for. :-)
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Got new tool in the shop today.
Blaze 2 CNC plasma cutter. Arrived in crate this morning and I made the first part (rear wing rib bracket) on it this evening.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/D6083986-05E3-4EB7-8F33-60EA29A02266-3069-000001E63F30E5D3_zpsae6b849a.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/D9064389-BC89-4BEA-951D-09555C8A4332-3069-000001E63C4D2399_zps61dcc42a.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/04AF274A-D3EE-4F39-B1E0-A128AFC5B536-3069-000001E6373ACEAE_zpsc124f1ac.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/670E1D04-C716-47E7-B4E4-02FE074E5B8A-3069-000001E6395F6F3F_zps37df7f0c.jpg)
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For reference, that is a 3" hole in the center and it took a little over 1-1/2 min to cut. I'm amazed. Bad thing is that it makes a lot of smoke and fumes. Might need to hook it up to our ventilation system.
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OMG can I come over to play! :-D
Rob, I really love this shape, execution, outside the box thinking, craftmanship. It just makes me want to do better things. Thanks for taking the time to post the progress and the tools!
Really, can I come over to play! :cheers:
Geo
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Geo, come on over!
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I'm working with another liner builder to machine aluminum wheels for 30" Mickeys. We are thinking flat forged 6061 T6. Would you mind sharing what you are using for your front solid tires?
Great Build Diary. Thanks
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Podunk, pm sent.
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Rob, did you get in contact with Don?
The concept of the composite rims that Blue mentioned when I spoke with him is intriguing. Would you mind explaining to all of us the manufacturing process?
Love the build!
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I did send (emailed) the detail drawing for the 21" front rollers to him. Have not heard back if he has received them yet.
Eric wants to design a giant groove into the the OD of the wheel. The roller would now actually look a little like a conventional wheel. The next step would be to filament wind glass fibers and resin into the groove until it achieved the rough shape of the tire profile. After the resin cures, the roller would then be mounted to a hub that is chucked in a lathe and a final profile and ribbed tread could be cut on the OD.
This would be substantially stronger and lighter than a solid aluminum rollers.
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Here is what we did to finish up the flaps. Eric layed up the tops and bottoms the bonded them together and foam filled them at the same time.
Then Ray Vinson recessed the ends and trimmed and trued the flaps for length and squareness.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zps5cd7a103.jpg)
Then I used the plasma cutter to cut out the sheet metal end plates and welded the 1" hex collars to them. They were then sandblasted to promote adhesion of the epoxy resin.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zpsaf2d0b17.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zps4c616505.jpg)
The next step was to make up some epoxy resin mixed with milled fibre. This was then used to fill the open foam and any low spots on the foam. The sheet metal end were then laid on top of the wet resin.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zps99b696d2.jpg)
Then the exposed side of the sheet metal was painted with resin and a sheet of heavy bi-axial cloth was laid on top of the sheet metal end. Note that there was a hole cut in the bi-axial that fit over the collar and holes were cut in the sheet metal ends to key every thing together. We then cut out some tight fitting plywood plugs and taped them up with Mylar packing tape for release agent. These were then inserted into the ends of the flap, clamped up and allowed to cure.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zpsd29444c4.jpg)
Note the hex shaft was inserted though the assembly to ensure good alignment.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zps2e807338.jpg)
The next day we trimmed the flap ends and tried them out.
http://youtu.be/7J9faGWORBk
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I'm actually in Arkansas all week with my oldest son at Home schoolers Speech and Debate National Competition (his Speedweek). All I can do this week is expedite parts via phone and email. Still, that consumes a ton of time. Every serious effort like this one almost needs a team member that does nothing but get quotes and expedite parts. It is very time consuming.
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More pics.
Marking wing hole in fuselage.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zps4b5b8d43.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zpsbd57f794.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zpsdee4e7f1.jpg)
Body working fuselage
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zps6ef1d832.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zps220b30e4.jpg)
The two Teds (Wolf and Freyvogel)holding up our welder Dave Chiotti.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zpsd5b5125a.jpg)
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More pics of recent progress
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zps9a3ed1d5.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zpsdd8675c6.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zps53c6a082.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zps017227ea.jpg)
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Woo Hoo, I love this thing. looks almost ready for flight. :cheers:
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Figuratively,,, Figuratively !!!!!!!!!!!!
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What Sparky said.
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All I can say is WOW. Now I've got to go out to the barn and throw rocks at my project.
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Blist---there have been some pretty crude cars gone pretty fast--my old ride Ratical went fairly fast and it has been called "the WUL"---worlds ugliest lakester take bad aim with the rocks if you must-- but finish it, put it on the Salt---and try to go visit "the Mayor"
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This is such a special build and great of you to share all the details, 62 days to go!
Looking forward to seeing it on the salt!
Rob, are there two parachute boxes, I see something ahead, and behind the axle.... How will the doors work?
Keep up the good work, loving it! :cheers:
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Amazing build guys! The whole concept just looks so obviously fast that it makes me wonder why this isn't a standard configuration for a stream liner. :cheers:
One thing catches my eye here, or I may not be seeing something that's right in front of me. (That has been known to happen 8-) ) The rear end axles look to be relatively long, with no support outboard of the differential housing, which is solidly mounted to the chassis. This area looks like it could use a little more beef to help stand up to the pounding of a rough track.
Maybe something like the support rod that runs from side to side under the diff on a Harley Servicar diff, with turn buckle adjusters on each end to provide preload adjustment. From here it looks like you could build it to fit inside the aero package.
Like I said, just an idea that's probably worth everything that you paid for it. :mrgreen:
More pics of recent progress
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zps9a3ed1d5.jpg)
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Thanks Wizzbang!
You are correct about the axle being very long. This is one of the reasons that the spars for the rear end are shaped like "I" beams (3 per side).. Also the skin of the wing is extremely strong and will be mounted with many of the right kind of fasteners. There will also be some other sheet metal plates that will be installed under the wing skin and will brace and stabilize the spars to keeping them from buckling under the extreme load. We agonized over this issue and I feel we have it under control.
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Graham,
We are still working out the details on how the chute doors will open but as of now they will be hinged from the side.
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Ahh, I see it now. My eye wasn't seeing them as "spars" in the load bearing sense, but more as formers just there to support the skin, with the outboard former supported by the axle. :oops:
It all makes much more sense now. :-D
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More pics.
The two Teds (Wolf and Freyvogel)holding up our welder Dave Chiotti.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zpsd5b5125a.jpg)
Is that "THE" Ted Wolf?
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More pics.
The two Teds (Wolf and Freyvogel)holding up our welder Dave Chiotti.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zpsd5b5125a.jpg)
Is that "THE" Ted Wolf?
Yes it is!
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Here is the paint scheme we decided on.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zpsf2c9609a.jpg)
Using single stage Hot Rod Flatz for this year.
Maybe we will have time for a really nice paint job next year.
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Weekends progress on getting wings mounted.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zps5de9729f.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zps5b0e670f.jpg)
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zps40d4d69a.jpg)
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It's coming together nice Rob!
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I'm frustrated on how slow things are happening. I set modest progress goals for us (at least I think they are modest) an we consistently miss them. Think we have about a billion hours in it so far.
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I'm frustrated on how slow things are happening. I set modest progress goals for us (at least I think they are modest) an we consistently miss them. Think we have about a billion hours in it so far.
welcome to LSR :roll:
actually most of us understand, just keep plugging away. :cheers: :cheers:
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You may start to whine when it has been 12 years.
FREUD
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I'm frustrated on how slow things are happening. I set modest progress goals for us (at least I think they are modest) an we consistently miss them. Think we have about a billion hours in it so far.
My Rampage certainly does not meet the high caliber and craftsmanship of your car. :cheers:
If it's any consolation, I've been working on mine off and on for four years! :oops:
Gregg
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Here is the paint scheme we decided on.
(http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/BR_LSR/Streamliner%20project/Liner%20construction/null_zpsf2c9609a.jpg)
Using single stage Hot Rod Flatz for this year.
Maybe we will have time for a really nice paint job next year.
Nice. :cheers:
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We conceived the idea of building a liner on the trip home from 2009 World Finals. We figured we could take our drive train out of Vinny and put it in a chassis shaped like the Spirit of Rett and go 400. Then we started playing with different shapes and Eric got involved. Then he forced us to educate ourselves. Long story short, 3.5 years later we are still at it. This may seem short to you guys but this project has absolutely consumed me for all 3.5 years (more than is healthy) and I'm ready for it to be done.
Ok, enough whining. I'm getting back to work.
Today's list include making sheet metal inner liners for the wheel skirts and stiffening wing panels between spars.
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Amazing night tonight. 8 people showed up and everybody pretty much stayed busy. 17 of 19 things crossed off the to do list.
Our welder, Dave Chiotti really kicked some butt. We also got the the windshield hole cut in the body. We will need to wait until we get the body back on the chassis before we cast the windshield flange.
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We have made some really good progress since our regular Thursday night get-togethers.
- Windscreen opening cut in the canopy section
- Temporary windscreen cut and fitted into the opening
- All four wing sections installed at the same time (2 upper halves and 2 lower halves)
- Tail cone installed
- All four sections of the rear half fuselage installed.
That means that the rear of the car, in terms of fitment, has been accomplished. We scuffed up the wing sections last night in prep for bonding which should happen today.
Next step is to bond our body mounting tabs to the wings so that we can secure the body/wings together mechanically. Then we can bond up the lower body halves and finish installing the fasteners on the lower half of the car. (The car is currently on it's roof. Hopefully this will be the only time that happens!)
We are also debating on when to paint. We might paint the lower surfaces of the chassis while the car is still upside down. Then we can roll it over to get to the uppers.
Next is to reassemble the suspension and install it into the chassis then get the car back upright. Once the car is upright, we can mount the body mounting tabs to the top side of the wing and bond the two upper body halves together. once that happens, we can cut the motor compartment access panel out and call the bodywork complete!
In the mean time, the paint referred in an earlier post arrived and Scott painted a sample panel. It looks great!
Here are some random pics of some of the items. Once we get everything bonded up, we'll update with some additional photos.
(http://s889.photobucket.com/user/bbarnhart_photos/media/IMAG0475_zps438b7006.jpg.html)
(http://s889.photobucket.com/user/bbarnhart_photos/media/IMAG0473_zps0f52f816.jpg.html)
(http://s889.photobucket.com/user/bbarnhart_photos/media/IMAG0476_zps27cab4b4.jpg.html)
(http://s889.photobucket.com/user/bbarnhart_photos/media/IMAG0477_zps9e808de9.jpg.html)
[Edit: The pictures aren't displaying, they must be too large. I'll reduce them and re-post them]
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Pictures didn't come thru.
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(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0475_zps783e20e8.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0473_zps06c6aa4a.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0477_zps2fd9d44a.jpg)
Something else that we wanted to make sure of was that the wing is solid and secure. This is just laying on the spars, no mechanical fasteners and Rob is standing on the widest unsupported gap. There is almost no deflection, you have to look at the light reflecting around his feet to even tell there is any deflection!
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0483_zps12f095cc.jpg)
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:-D big, big smile!
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Bonded up the wing halves last night and everything looks fine.
We also started to paint the chassis.
We decided to use silver POR 15.
We prepped it like recommended but are still having terrible problem with fish eyes. From what we can tell, there is only a problem where we drilled through the unpicked hot rolled plate. We used cutting oil to drill and it appears that it has soaked into the black oxide skin and traditional methods (wax and grease remover and or lawyer thinner) are not working. I thought this stuff was a slap it on over anything type of paint.
I'm sort of disappointed. The stuff does get very hard though. I wanted this chassis to look really nice but we will have to settle for " pretty much mostly silver" this year.
We have friends in the blasting business so we can take it back apart after this year and do it better. At this stage, in order to make it for Speedweek, we have to choose our battles.
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Lacquer thinner is your best friend.
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Rob, you know how much I love this build!
It's coming along great-see you on the salt! :cheers:
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Talk to an automotive paint specialty store. They do have a chemical to add to the paint to discourage fish eyes.
Pete
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Somehow I think Alex Tremulis is up there looking down with an approving grin.
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I think the "lawyer" thinner would work if you paid enough for it. [Just kidding]
Doug :wink: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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No doubt, we could use some lawyer thinner in this country. LOL! Especially at the ACLU.
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Somehow I think Alex Tremulis is up there looking down with an approving grin.
I would certainly be honored if he was.
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Had another good week this week. The wing sections are all bonded up
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0488_zps22bd731e.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0492_zps1b16f61d.jpg)
Some painting of the chassis is complete (the chassis is still upside down)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0484_zps5fb18d1a.jpg)
The two large holes in the front are for the fire bottles and you can see the additional brackets for them on the divider. There is also a cap that goes over the ends that secures via the 10-32 holes located around the openings.
Bonded the lower half of the rear fuselage together and installed the rest of the temporary fasteners.
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0494_zpsbb08d768.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/IMAG0495_zps00254ed6.jpg)
The "Tape" that is running through the middle of the joint in the photos above is actually the peel-ply layer we use over the composite straps of the joint. This layer allows us to extract the air from the composite layers without causing the strap layer to move. You can use a squeegee to work the resin into the layers, chase the air bubbles out and remove any excess resin with the layer.
The amazing part is that the resin doesn't stick to the peel-ply layer. Just leave it on until the resin cures, then peel it off. This leaves behind a relatively smooth and uniform joint that has a fine but rough texture that you can re-bond layers directly to or apply body filler to with good adhesion.
We should now be able to flip the chassis over and bond up the top rear halves of the fuselage this weekend and continue chassis painting. Might even try to cut the canopy out and cast the windscreen flanges in too! Hopefully by the end of the weekend we can have the main fuselage and wing bodywork completed and start on the wheel fairings.
Speaking of the windscreen, does it require mechanical fasteners to secure it into place or can we bond it directly to the canopy?
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Rob, either make a couple of canopy's or make the screen removable/replaceable.
Shit happens you know... :cheers:
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Thank stainless!
We will make a couple of wind screens.
It is easy enough now that the mold is done.
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"Speaking of the windscreen, does it require mechanical fasteners to secure it into place or can we bond it directly to the canopy?" IF you bond it, make sure that you've tested the bonding agent, the preparation process AND the application process. Some of the protective film/masking used on some of the clear plastics can leave just enough residue to preclude good bonding (at least back in the day when I learned that the hard way). I used a clear silicone, the kind used to put aquariums together, on some acrylic. It ended up making a real good gasket after I put screws in. YMMV
Roy
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We had to start covering the windscreen after we salt blasted it both making pass' with the open front wheels and on the tow back to the pits. After much work they polished out. We saved material to make an extra.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Attach with flush head screws and lock nuts, cover when towing on the ground, we tow the liners on the trailers.
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Eric wants us to use the thin aircraft fender washers and over c'sink the polycarbonate so that the taper of the washer does not touch the plastic and cause it to split. According to Eric, aircraft will sometimes have a strip of metal that is used in place of the washers and that strip of metal stays with the windshield through the life of the windshield.
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Today, we are finishing welding about the cockpit area, then we can paint the chassis.
I think we are going to convert over to rustoleum as I really hate working with the POR 15.
When the car is done for the year, we will make any changes to the chassis that feel necessary, strip the car down, send the frame out to be blasted, primed and sprayed. At this time, we have to choose our battles or we will not get done in time.
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comes in "Rattle Cans" too--- I learned the hard way to use the ugly brown as it doesn't "float around" ---ie overspray near as much
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Rob, I have had good luck with Rustoleum "Hammerite" type paint. The main reason I have stayed with it is not because of superior rust proofing (none of the spray can stuff is), but because these projects always get torn down, modified, repaired, derusted, etc. This paint removes pretty easily with plain old lacquer thinner, even after a few years. It has ground glass in it, which seems to let the thinner cut through easier. I do NOT put primer under it, and you can respray areas you might rework without having it look too bad. Also, you cannot spray lacquer paint over it, it wrinkles.
When the rust comes, and it does, its easier to deal with if you dont have to grind or sand or burn off coatings. This is really a problem in the deep spots of weld corners, where you have to get all the paint off and use something like OSPHO to convert the thin rust lines that sometimes form.
Its not supposed to work, but the rails on my flatbed sides (1" tubing) get rusty from scuffing and work. I have been putting the OSPHO right onto the rusty paint areas, keep agitating it to keep it wet, and then flush with the garden hose. It turns the rust gray in my gray Hammerite paint! Eventually, after enough treatments over time, the steel turns that old "purple iron" shade and doesnt rust anymore.
It does tend to melt the glass if you start grinding on it without first using the lacquer thinner or acetone.
Regards, JimL
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I definitely agree with Erik's suggestion of using a
metal strip... Our EA-6B replacement windscreens
used that method and had more rigidity than the
OEM stuff.
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You can't bond your canopy in with Sikaflex or something similar Rob?
As strong as any screwed fixing without weakening either part or localising stresses to start cracks.
Cheers
jon
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If the wind screen is bonded to the canopy it will be hard to replace.
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Rob, the 'liner is coming along nicely!
Just remember, the Rustoleum offers very little rust protection, while the POR-15 does a pretty good job.
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I'm getting even more frustrated with the POR 15. Lots of fish eyes even though I prepped everything just like the direction said using their metal prep and everything. Also, it is very thick yet it still runs very easily. Worst of both worlds.
Fish eyes are occurring where there is mill scale on some of the A36 plate that was drilled trough. Looks like the cutting oil permeated the scale and lacquer thinner or wax and grease remover won't pull it out of the scale.
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POR paint over rust :? run it--- let it rust-- then paint it :-D
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My best luck removing carbon scale is with the acid based metal cleaners, before I make parts out of the steel. A throwaway brush and some time with gentle brushing and the carbon comes off and flows away. Wash off with water, and then do the Phosphoric conversion after it develops a fresh layer of surface rust. Do NOT sand off the layer of rust that forms after removing the carbon... that is the layer that serves the conversion process.
Once its painted, its really discouraging to try to solve your situation. The good news is that its a new car, and we all tear down the new car after the first year and redo everything under the sun. Worst mistake Dan and I made when we first built the roadster, was using too much paint. We sure did redo a lot of that car the first couple years, as we learned what it needed. The only caveat, you must be prepared to do the complete teardown right away when you get home. Putting things off a few months only leads to more work.
You are doing great, and we sure are looking forward to seeing your project.
JimL
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Jim, I agree. Keep chassis paint to a minimum especially on special construction vehicles that can be completely disassembled.
This silver POR 15 is turning green! No kidding, it's green! I do not like it.
When we get back from Bville, I will make any changes that we have to, (Hoping there won't be too many) then send chassis out for sandblasting and metal etching primer. Will then paint with rustoleum or other cheap paint that can be easily touched up. This will never ever be a show piece. It is a race car and will be treated as such. Besides, me and nice paint don't get along.
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AHHHH a fellow street racer at heart---no show--- lets just GO!!!!!!!!!!!! Rob go get'em!!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Still working on wheel pants and canopy but much of the rest of the car is in final assembly. :-)
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I ordered a 30ft triaxle deck over trailer a few weeks ago. It is coming along beautifully. Greg from Viking trailer and his friend Garth stopped by the shop today to see our progress.
Yes, I'm hauling this thing on an open trailer. Too wide to fit in conventional box plus we need a way to go get the car and deliver it to starting line.
We are also building a swinging crane that will mount to the trailer and pick the car up. Crane is designed, now just needs built. Mark Evarts of Freedom Iron Works (Pittsburgh, PA) offered to build the crane for us. Hopefully he can start on that this week. I need to get him the drawings ASAP.
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Rob, I use a crane for my bike by swinging it out to the side. I have a big, strong vertical "bumper bar" on the back of my trailer. It plugs into a standard receiver hitch. On the top end of the bar is a horizontal bar with padding on the end. When I load or unload, the "bumper bar" unplugs from the trailer, turns sideways to put the pad on the ground and plugs back in. The ground contact is outside the CG of the bike when it is swung out on the crane.
Thats what keeps my trailer from flipping over with the weight cantilevered to the side.
Regards, JimL
P.S. I do NOT use tie downs or straps as primary tie down. I use a pair of strong bolt tabs, sticking out the bottom of the bikes. There are a pair of tabs sticking up from the trailer. I use shouldered bolts, ground to a taper, to bolt to the trailer. The bolts have a long taper and I use a bushing and washer to take up the taper as the bolt shoulder size fills into the tab holes. Two is enough and nobody has to deal with salty tie downs, loose strap ends, or the vehicle moving after its loaded. You can stick a pony bar into the tabs as you lower into place, to get the alignment close enough to work with the taper bolts.
The biggest advantage is that this method has completely ended years of crew injuries during loading. The tabs can be any place its easy to access. They do not need to be under the CG. We have a few extra bolts ready, in case we bung one up and have to knock it out by hitting the small thread end. This has been very reliable and sooo easy!
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Open trailering RULES!!
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:cheers:
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Open trailering RULES!!
Eye candy for the folks on the road. Here's ours with security system. :-D
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Open trailering RULES!!
Eye candy for the folks on the road. Here's ours with security system. :-D
We had a trailer like that for several years but after a bitchen paint job and towing through Nevada after they had just gravelled the hiway, the front end got chipped up pretty bad :cry:
We build a wooden front about 3 ft high after that.
JL222
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Got the front rollers in today!
They look awesome and fit perfectly!
Terry Mourer of Mourer Machine did an absolutely stunning job.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/18/e8e5usuh.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/18/me2e6u8y.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/18/yrevugyn.jpg)
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Wow!
Rob, Those wheels are gorgeous. In fact the whole darn car
is awesome.
I am looking forward to seeing you in Bonneville.
Dave Gray
# 3611
56 Corvette
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WAY to go PODUNK !!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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WOW! Those are fantastic! :cheers:
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Hey Rob
What's happening with your racer, no posts for awhile?
G Don
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Too busy thrashing!
Here is something.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/29/8y5yte2a.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/29/nuzu3aqe.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/29/ugenusaz.jpg)
More stuff on Facebook. Quicker to post there.
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/31/5emaveby.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/31/nagysu2u.jpg)
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/31/e7emabu7.jpg)
This is the bottom of the wheel pant.
Foamed and capped. Still has peel ply on it.
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Looks awesome rob! Those front wheels are beautiful! Go man go! :cheers:
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Had a call from Rob this evening, with a question---they are in the final THRASH---the liner got a fresh new look today---paint---Rob said it looked---BUEeeeTIFULLLL!!!!!!! :-D He had pulled out all the stops and called in all the IOUs and they had 10-12 guys knocking things off the list!!---He should be on the salt by Sat. afternoon late!!!!!!!!! a 32 hour drive!!!!!!!!!!!!
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One of the new era teams. There is a lot to study in their design and construct methods.
It will be fun to see them. They have a lot to be proud of.
FREUD
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Bad news. As of 3am this morning, we pulled the plug on Speedweek 2013.
The list of little stuff to do was just a bit larger than we could finish without making unhealthy compromises.
Good news. World of Speed is just under 4 weeks away.
Most of the team will still be attending Speedweek as some tickets were not changeable and we will be able to devote full attention to the 3838 Corvette which is not such a bad thing to settle for. :-)
After three years if building, we are missing Speedweek by about a week.
This was actually more like a five year project that we crammed into a three year time frame so I do not really feel too bad about it.
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/09/aru7ehy4.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/09/avary8at.jpg)
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D-d-O-a-D-m-G-m-E WOS it is :-( :-( :-(
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THIS THING---is going to be STUNNING 8-)
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Nooooooo! Looks like I'm going to WOS as well, good call on your part Rob. Better to be 100% than to make a 30+ hour drive and not be ready.
I'll find the vette and come say "hi"
:cheers:
Dan
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LOVE the color! Too bad the car won't be at Speedweek. I guess I'll just have to wait until next year to see it in all of its glory. Hopefully things progress smoothly without as much pressure. Keep up the great work guys!
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As Basher said, good call on your part Rob.
Looks like I'm in luck as WoS is my only Bonneville event this year.
Can't wait to see this car up close and then go down the track.....very FAST!
I'll stop in and say "Hi".
Gregg
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I've never been to a WOS event but I here many good things about it.
Most of my crew was able reschedule vacation time and a couple may be going to both events.
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And remember Rob, Mike Cook's Shootout starts 2 days after WoS.....Just a point to ponder! :-D
Gregg
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:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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We still are planning on taking this car to WOS.
What differences can we expect from the experience different than a SCTA experience. Any rules differences? Different tech forms? Etc?
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should be almost seamless--just not as big a crowd---lots of the same faces :cheers:
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Its a great event, we went last year. Since you have a new car it may be a bit more challenging at first but the actual running of the event is great. Dan still runs impound so that is nice... As said before, many of the same people...
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We haven't posted in a while, mostly because we have been busy! Our FB page gets updated more often since it is just easier to do in a short period of time. If you don't have a facebook account, you can still view our page if you wish since it is a public page.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Carbinite-LSR/115785421856394 (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Carbinite-LSR/115785421856394)
Also feel free to track-back on the links below to our photobucket page, I just loaded up a stack of photos. Some good, some not so good, but there are some additional build photos there. Hopefully we can go back and update an entire timeline of the build, but you know how that goes.
It is looking good that we will be ready for WOS, hopefully the weather is going to be cooperative.
Otherwise, here's a couple of more recent shots to let you see what we've been doing.
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/496%20Liner%20Build/IMAG0005A_zps88b45087.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/496%20Liner%20Build/IMAG0574_zpsa541a767.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/496%20Liner%20Build/IMAG0571_zps3aba6dcf.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/496%20Liner%20Build/IMAG0564_zps82551607.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/496%20Liner%20Build/IMAG0545_zps24cf0790.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/496%20Liner%20Build/IMAG0548_zps78ad11a8.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/496%20Liner%20Build/IMAG0543_zps94e5e996.jpg)
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/496%20Liner%20Build/IMAG0544_zps96ceb8d7.jpg)
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(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/496%20Liner%20Build/IMAG0573_zps16f2640a.jpg)
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Rob, you already know about my love affair with this car!
Good luck at WOS! :cheers:
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Wow, such a nice liner! I have been following your build since you started posting the Solidworks (?) drawings. That is a monster program I have been lucky to work with for som 15 years or so. It allows much better packaging if you get the parts drawn accurately!
Keep the info coming, both here and on facebook, it is like hanging out in a buds garage.
Great work, hope the weather holds for the runs this year. :-D
Matt Guzzetta
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Matt, have you replaced your rawhide strings yet?
FREUD
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Car is finally on trailer. Long distance transportation mounts are just about finalized.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/30/ga6e8u4y.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/30/pygype4a.jpg)
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This time I will find You.
FREUD
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Nice crane setup and bolt down. Good to see the rubber mounting. We had trouble securing a long mod roadster because the trailers flex more than the race car, and locating points change length on segmented highways.
Planning a new trailer myself for the next build. I use doubled snatch blocks, currently, to slow down the action during alignment. Will go 4-part reduction next due to lift battery drains too fast when winch slows down, but runs forever when its not.
Beautiful car and concepts! :cheers:
P.s. Drown the winch cable in LPS3 before you get on the salt. The stranded wire does capillary action from salt anywhere on the cable and any moisture at all. The corrosion goes all the way to the drum overnite. I also need to LPS1 the heavy wires to the winch next time...same problem with stranded copper wire. Thats why my ocean sailboats had solid copper wiring. Hope this helps save you money.
Also, if you unload on a slope or trailer unlevel you need a cheater bar off the back of crane post so guys can control the swing. I often have a ratchet rope rigged if it looks spooky, to keep it from getting away.
JimL
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a JAW dropping WOW!!!!!!!!! :-D :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Nice travel mounts, well thought out. see you in a few days. :cheers:
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Rob,
Nice work and well thought out. I hope you have a successful maiden voyage.
Tom G.
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Rob and crew:
You have my best wishes on a successful venture at Bonneville.
Please have fun and Be safe.
I will try to call you one evening while you are there for an
update.
Regards, Dave Gray
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We are planning on being at world of speed with the liner. We have a number for the car. What do we need to do for a chassis sticker and a log book? Will we be able to pick one up at WOS or is there something else we need to do?
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Should be able to pick up a log book---be sure to take some small quartering shots of the car some without skin for the 4 required log book "Poloroid type" to mount in the inside frt. of the log booK!!
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Wow, wish I could see this car's debut. Hope it all goes well, great piece of work. :cheers: :cheers:
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Should be able to pick up a log book---be sure to take some small quartering shots of the car some without skin for the 4 required log book "Poloroid type" to mount in the inside frt. of the log booK!!
Thanks Sparky, we kind of figured it wouldn't be a big deal. With everything else we had going on this little detail was pushed to the bottom of the list.
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Wow, wish I could see this car's debut. Hope it all goes well, great piece of work. :cheers: :cheers:
Thanks for the well wishes, we are anxious to go get after it and see what she can do. It is really awesome to see a dream coming to life, it is almost overwhelming!
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"It is really awesome to see a dream coming to life, it is almost overwhelming!" bb
I have experienced some of that myself with the WW.
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Simply beautiful Rob, an amazing design and quality workmanship build in a very short time.
Good luck on the salt.
jon
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Simply beautiful Rob, an amazing design and quality workmanship build in a very short time.
Good luck on the salt.
jon
Thank you very much Jon. We do appreciate it.
Did not seem like a short time. Wife did not think it was a short time. LOL!
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"Wife did not think it was a short time. LOL!"
Whoooeee do I know the feeling--mine is also getting "TESTY" lol
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"Wife did not think it was a short time. LOL!"
Whoooeee do I know the feeling--mine is also getting "TESTY" lol
I don't have that problem, mine drives the car. She gets testy if she don't go faster :cheers:
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So Rob and I aren't really sure what to do with ourselves tonight. We have found ourselves in an odd position of having a clean whiteboard. For the first time in a LONG time, we aren't working on the car. We buttoned it up late this morning and were packing the tools and parts when we got word that WoS was cancelled.
Determined to do something with a freshly built car that has been sitting in the stable without seeing the light of day, we decided to take it for a drive and see how it handled riding on the trailer.
While we were out and about we stopped by the Butler County airport to see if we could get some pictures. The car looks BEATUIFUL in the sun, way better than under the shop's fluorescent lights. Here are some shots we snapped. Really bummed we aren't passing through Chicago right now. Hopefully World Finals has some good weather...
In the mean time, the trailer loading, unloading and customizations we made all worked well. The car traveled very happily without any incident. Now that we have a little more time, we'll take the opportunity to sweeten up a few items and make some mods we were putting off because we didn't have time to get to them.
-Brandon
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/496%20Liner%20Build/IMAG0614_zpsb710d0ec.jpg)
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You are right. The car certainly looks more spectacular in
natural sunlight than it did sitting in the shop. Congratulations
for making your deadline. The cancellation disappointment will be forgotten
as you are sitting on the starting line for the first time.
Regards,
Dave Gray
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What a BITICHIN ride--- :
Here's to a great track at WF :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Rob, that jewel would look very nice at Wilmington end of this month! :-D
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Rob, that jewel would look very nice at Wilmington end of this month! :-D
We don't have tires for Wilmington but we might stop in with it as we are traveling to World Finals.
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It looks devastating Rob. Love a new approach and this is outside the box and, my bet, above the mark.
Congratulations on getting through the build, you'll do well.
Cheers :cheers:
Dr G
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WOW! That is sharp looking!
Fitting the pics were at an airport, as it looks like a jet fighter!
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Rob, that jewel would look very nice at Wilmington end of this month! :-D
We don't have tires for Wilmington but we might stop in with it as we are traveling to World Finals.
Rob, I didn't say you had to run it! Just wanted the chance to drool on it! :-D
Me thinks this is a game changer! :cheers:
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I hope everyone that looks at the Carbinite car realize that this is the new look of going fast without having 3-5000 horse power. This car is built on the NLF( Natural Laminar Flow) work of people like Carmichael and Eric Ahlstrom (AKA Blue). This car is designed and built to accelerate faster and have a higher terminal speed with less horse power than any of the present day contenders for the 500 mph wheel driven record. It will be exciting to watch it develop.
I am sorry that the WOS was canceled and the Carbinite and the Target 550 were not able to run but for me it will allow me to attend the World Finals in early October, if the rain gods can be kept happy, and see the initial runs of this ground breaking car.
See you there!!!
Rex
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One thought given the delay now is if you are friends with the folks at the airport (or one nearby) -- can you make a few "system check runs" ( <100 mph) down the runway during non-busy hours? Inevitably a lot can be learned quickly before you get to the salt flats upcoming with an untested streamliner.
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One thought given the delay now is if you are friends with the folks at the airport (or one nearby) -- can you make a few "system check runs" ( <100 mph) down the runway during non-busy hours? Inevitably a lot can be learned quickly before you get to the salt flats upcoming with an untested streamliner.
True, but I think they are not wanting to hurt the Solid Front wheels. How about a run on a Chassis Dyno?
By the way, This is a very stunning car, when you guys first proposed it I frankly never even expected it to come to life, but it is even more fantastic now that it is ready. :cheers:
This puppy getting a personal name?
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In my opinion personal names and nicknames are earned.
FREUD
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We are thinking about a dyno check and some passes on a runway. I've made some calls today and worked out which local airports we can't use and which one we can. The issue is the FAA has clamped down on airport use, it can only be used for aviation services if it receives federal dollars.
Since I do not want to excersize my FAA privileges while driving the car, we'll go to a private airfield for some test runs. We are working out a gearing change that will let us shift into at least second gear for a good tranny test.
One of the critical systems we want to check is chute deployment. That will be hard to accomplish on the dyno. The dyno is not a big priority item as the engine and transmission was transplanted and was working well in Vinnie.
We want to install some cameras on the wheel fairings to monitor the chute doors and deployment to see what we can learn. While a 100 mph pass doesn't show us what a high speed pass will do, at least it is some data.
We also want to see how the "stinger" holds up while pushing the car off. Again with the cameras and a good review of what is going on when pushing off.
As for the aluminum rollers, we do have some rubber 21's for the front, but they are not high speed tires, 100mph is about all we would want to try with them.
If we get out this weekend to Green County airport, we'll be sure to post some pics/vids for you guys to see.
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In my opinion personal names and nicknames are earned.
FREUD
Agreed, we refer to it as the streamlined or liner, nothing special. If it earns a name/nickname, so be it. Until then its just the #496 streamliner.
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I've made some calls today and worked out which local airports we can't use and which one we can. The issue is the FAA has clamped down on airport use, it can only be used for aviation services if it receives federal dollars.
Maybe tell them it is an experimental aircraft and you want to do some ground tests. :-P
If we get out this weekend to Green County airport, we'll be sure to post some pics/vids for you guys to see.
Yes Please..... :-D
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We had the car officially entered at Speedweek as the "Carbiliner" since Carbinite has sponsored the project to this point.
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We do have slow speed rubber front tires to test at the airport.
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So, we did a little test last night at the shop to gauge tire growth and clearance within the wheel fairings. Rob was on throttle, I was on camera, Ted was safety man while Thomas and Ryan hid in the office doorway. :-D
This was the last test we performed, we blocked the car off the ground and secured it so that the tires wouldn't touch ground. Stabilized the chassis so that it wouldn't rock from torque and ran the car through the gears to a target spindle speed to produce 540 MPH of surface speed at the wheel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBhiJNbB6KA&feature=share&list=UUudh2K7DaZfmUIiOXH-DYzw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBhiJNbB6KA&feature=share&list=UUudh2K7DaZfmUIiOXH-DYzw)
CHECK OUT THAT TIRE GROWTH! :-o
So we know from this test, as well as others, where our limit for speed is with this wheel well/tire configuration. There is a little more clearance than it appears on the video because of the camera angle at 540 MPH surface speed, but we will need to allow room for salt build-up.
Saturday we will be testing the push-bar / stinger we have to ensure it holds up as planned. It is really good to see some of these things getting done before we get to the salt. Hopefully it will make for a more enjoyable time at WF...as long as the weather doesn't cheat us out of another chance.
-Brandon
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Wow, that was cool. I can understand why some would hide :cheers:
Frank
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That is a ton of growth. Would have liked to seen it with a load.
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That was scary cool......... :-o
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That is a ton of growth. Would have liked to seen it with a load.
Me too. Know anyone that has a dyno that can handle those speeds? ;-)
According to the expert on these tires, there is very little difference with or without load at high RPMs. It was interesting seeing his observations of this video and comparing/contrasting it to his testing.
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The difference is the "wave" in the tire as it comes "off" of its load would be my guess
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Now that took a big set!!!
Rex
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I believe Burklands had a machine that could load the tire and did a bunch of testing. Tom may be able to give you more insight as to how what you saw relates to a loaded tire. There are some on this board know how to contact him.
Pete
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PJ I think TB may be the dyno test guy Rob refers to.
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I believe Burklands had a machine that could load the tire and did a bunch of testing. Tom may be able to give you more insight as to how what you saw relates to a loaded tire. There are some on this board know how to contact him.
Pete
Yes, you guessed it, that's our expert. Didn't want to mention his name as I know that he likes to keep a low profile.
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Tom and Betty didn't keep a low profile when they spoke at the Bonneville NW Reunion.
The tire testing procedure was shown in the presentation.
It's speakers like that who make the banquet informative as well as a hoot.
Check our website www.bonnevillenwreunion.com
The 2014 speaker will be announced before long.
Plan on attending.
FREUD
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WOW! That was an eye opener! :-o
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Joe Law also used a tire testing machine he made from a Chevy truck with the drive shaft driving one wheel and a second tire that pressed against the driven one .
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Rob, the car looks great and I'm sure it will run as good as it looks. Excellent work there, brilliant. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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We took the #496 liner to Greene County Airport yesterday as it was closed down to air traffic. About 4 times a year they hold the Flashlight Drags there. They can only do this because they do not accept federal money from the FAA. Flashlight Drags are their fundraiser and do very well with it. Anyhow, they let us do a couple of push offs and the #496 did very well. Seemed to be able to pull away from push truck within 300 ft at about 40 mph. This means that we should be well above 100mph by the first set of cones.
Steering and brakes worked well and crew did a fantastic job launching and retrieving it from the trailer. Pictures and videos to come soon.
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Here is one of the pics from yesterday, the video is being processed for upload now. As soon as it is done uploading I'll post it up for all to see.
28' of car, 18' of Denali and 36' of trailer = a parade of 82' leaving the starting line!
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/496%20Liner%20Build/IMAG0638_zps7acca082.jpg)
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WOW! That was an eye opener! :-o
As the guy holding the camera 2 feet from that spinning tire, I would have to say it was more of a hole closer than an eye opener! :-o
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Two new videos.
This video is the first launch, Rob was able to pull away from me at about 45 MPH. I was not pushing very hard / accelerating quickly to make sure the stinger stayed on the bar.
http://youtu.be/ljyqfnifGyc (http://youtu.be/ljyqfnifGyc)
In this video, we removed the wheel cover so that we could quickly check the brakes and tires after the run to make sure everything was working properly. We did notice that the push-truck takes a little nose high attitude with the trailer on and the recovery team all loaded in. Under acceleration I could feel the stinger sliding down the push plate. We'll adjust it this week to make sure we stay connected.
I also pushed a little harder this run, but with the threat of the stinger slipping under the push plate I backed off. I think we should be able to give it an even bigger push to get it rolling.
http://youtu.be/wUiLgIEeETk (http://youtu.be/wUiLgIEeETk)
This is starting to get real, Rob and I are very anxious to get out to the salt. Let's hope the bad weather is getting out of the way now and we can get WF and the Cook Shootout both in for October!
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A couple of other tests we were able to perform besides pushing the car off yesterday was loading, unloading, race prep and pack-up procedures.
The crane makes it really nice to work on the car while it is on the trailer. We have a method to lift just the rear, just the front or the whole car a one time. This makes it really nice to change tires, inspect or work on the lower side of the car without taking it off the trailer and jacking it up. Jacking it up means removing the belly pan and the nose of the car to prevent damaging the composites.
Loading and unloading involve lifting the car and simply swinging the crane on/off the trailer. Here is a short video of how smooth the winch lowers the car. We added a snatch block that attaches to the car to double the lifting and cut the speeds in half. Seems to work really well.
We can switch from transport mode to race mode (remove transport mounts and install tires) in about 15 minutes. Setting the car up for launch is about a 5 minute process. Recovering the car is about a 5 minute process as well.
http://youtu.be/X-7upUm959A (http://youtu.be/X-7upUm959A)
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Very cool videos. October will be here very soon. I hope that the weather is more cooperative
than it has been this month.
Good luck guys. Everyone is pulling for you
Dave Gray
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Over the top. Gave me goosebumps. Wish we see it run. :cheers: :cheers:
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Yeah. Good luck with the weather to you and all the other guys who want to run. Sure is a slick looking car.
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You all have done so much in one year and to see it run is so cool. We sure hope to see you on the salt in a few days. We plan to have the Turbinator II and the little giant liners there as well. Pray for good weather and salt. Congrats on a super effor to make it happen. :cheers:
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Rob and Guys,
Absolutely F ing fantastic!! It does give me goose bumps and it is so impressive.
I am not very religious but I am praying for good weather at the World Finals.
Rex
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Why not a larger "push plate" on the push vehicle? [Or am I not seeing all of the plate?]. It appears that its height could be almost doubled without interfering much with cooling air into the front of the push truck. I assume it's quickly detachable for other driving?
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Why not a larger "push plate" on the push vehicle? [Or am I not seeing all of the plate?]. It appears that its height could be almost doubled without interfering much with cooling air into the front of the push truck. I assume it's quickly detachable for other driving?
It is plenty tall enough and wide enough, we just missed a minor detail. When the crew is loaded and trailer is attached, it sits a little nose high. The plate is 12"x32" which works well, it just needs lowered 3 inches.
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Rob and Guys,
Absolutely F ing fantastic!! It does give me goose bumps and it is so impressive.
I am not very religious but I am praying for good weather at the World Finals.
Rex
Absolutely double F ing^2 fantastic!! Gives me poose gimples, too! :cheers:
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AWESOME!! So cool to see the ole girl moving under its own power! :cheers: Good job guys!
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You all have done so much in one year and to see it run is so cool. We sure hope to see you on the salt in a few days. We plan to have the Turbinator II and the little giant liners there as well. Pray for good weather and salt. Congrats on a super effor to make it happen. :cheers:
If you get there before us Glen, save us a spot. Would love to pit next to you guys.
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Stunning! :cheers:
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bbarn will try to save you a spot. Be great to meet all of you. :cheers:
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What is Carbinite? This is one application. Here we are adding about .0005 tungsten carbide coating on one of the sliding surfaces on our crane. This will give a a dissimilar material between the two sliding surfaces to prevent galling.
During crane maintenance we noticed that we were having some metal transferring from galling. This should fix it.(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/24/pygazujy.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/24/e7yvuru7.jpg)
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Desperately need two Goodyear 2282(21") tires for the front of our car. New or used. We will run at Ohio mile this weekend if we can get a set.
Please call or text me at 724-822-2505 if you can help.
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I have one brand new on...its all your if needed...will text now as well...
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Desperately need two Goodyear 2282(21") tires for the front of our car. New or used. We will run at Ohio mile this weekend if we can get a set.
Please call or text me at 724-822-2505 if you can help.
Mother Nature has not been good to the racers this year and I do hope you can find the tires!
Looking forward to meeting you and seeing this gorgeous car in Wilmington this weekend! :cheers:
Gregg
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Desperately need two Goodyear 2282(21") tires for the front of our car. New or used. We will run at Ohio mile this weekend if we can get a set.
Please call or text me at 724-822-2505 if you can help.
Mother Nature has not been good to the racers this year and I do hope you can find the tires!
Looking forward to meeting you and seeing this gorgeous car in Wilmington this weekend! :cheers:
Gregg
What Gregg said. Would love to meet you and drool on the car :-D
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Really looking forward to meeting you guys also. We do need to find 1 more tire or we are not going anywhere.
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Rob, Did you find the tires you needed?.....Fingers crossed you did!
Gregg
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Thanks to Sparky and Joe Amo we got tires or at least they are in transit. With some luck UPS and FedEx will deliver on time tomorrow and we can get them mounted up.
Tonight we got the hydraulic pressure sensor for the front suspension hooked up and data logging. Pressure is right in the range we expected.we wee expecting about 500psi and we ended up with 480 something. I just love it when the math works out!
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WONDERFUL NEWS!!!!!
Now get that STUNNING car to Wilmington and make some passes! :-D
Gregg
PS: Weather's GREAT here! :cheers:
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Gregg, don't get too exited. We can only run to the .75 mile mark as we will need much more distance to stop if we have a chute malfunction.
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Rob, After a 4 year build, .75 mile is better than nothing! :evil: :-D :cheers:
I'll be excited just to see the car and like Frank said, just drool over! :-D
Gregg
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I'm filling the bug sprayer with drool just so I don't run out! :-D :-o :-D :-o
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How much air pressure you want to run in these 2282 tires?
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Rob,
I assume that you will be putting some "shorter" gears in the QC for the mile.(?)
Rex
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Yes Rex. Will just flip the gearset over.
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65 psi
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That will give us 3.33 to 1 but we might just run gears like they are. It's a bit of a pita to change gears in this car and I don't want to make too much torque to rear wheels as I do not want to spin and ruin a set of tires. We can go 220+ in first gear. Goal is to test chute deployment, not go fast.
There is one easy modification we can make to make it easier to change QC gears but it will have to wait until we have wings off.
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Good sign to see you posting questions about the tires! They must have arrived!
Is tomorrow the BIG day for us folks here in Wilmington?
Inquiring minds want to know! :-D :-D :-D
Gregg
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Rob, good move on your part, you have a lot of time now and sometimes baby steps will teach you and the team a bunch, take videos front and back on the test runs, you don't want lift or spinning chutes. Good luck wish I was there to watch/help.
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Rob, pm sent
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Good sign to see you posting questions about the tires! They must have arrived!
Is tomorrow the BIG day for us folks here in Wilmington?
Inquiring minds want to know! :-D :-D :-D
Gregg
We are in reassembly/button up mode. Gears are switched, tires installed. Fuselage next, then load everything up for a 4am departure. If we don't run into any trouble we will be in Wilmington bright and early!
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Good sign to see you posting questions about the tires! They must have arrived!
Is tomorrow the BIG day for us folks here in Wilmington?
Inquiring minds want to know! :-D :-D :-D
Gregg
We are in reassembly/button up mode. Gears are switched, tires installed. Fuselage next, then load everything up for a 4am departure. If we don't run into any trouble we will be in Wilmington bright and early!
FANTASTIC NEWS!
I think I can speak for all here in Wilmington that we can't wait to drool over it and see it run down the track!
Also, I look forward to meeting all you guys.
Gregg
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WoooHoooo Great news Rob. Nuthin better than a bunch of data gathering test runs to confirm the math and theories. Especialy in an environment chock full of racers (nuts). :cheers:
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Rob, I think you have made a wise choice in the location of your first tests.
You will have support from the track management that will surprise you.
Congratulations on your testing concepts.
The best to you and your team.
FREUD
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We did switch to the 3.33 gearset. Max speed will be about 180mph.
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:cheers: here's to a nice and stable chute :cheers:
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/28/2aza9amu.jpg)
Just got the artwork back for the T-shirts.
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:cheers: I will take 3 2XXL put a Price tag on them and let us know!!!!!!!
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Rob, I wish all the best on your testing and a safe drive. You've really done great job there. The shirts are awesome as well. God Bless.
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I just posted this in the Wilmington Picture Post thread:
Pictures do not do justice for this car. It's an absolutely incredible work of art.
Gregg
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Here are the links to the videos that we took from on the Carbiliner this weekend.
The first video is pass #1 at 141 MPH out the rear to monitor the chute performance. We've watched this video 100 times, there is a wealth of information about what is happening with the car aside from the chute data we were looking for.
http://youtu.be/M7YdpE_DiKo (http://youtu.be/M7YdpE_DiKo)
Pass number two with the camera mounted on the left side wing looking forward. The location of the camera was almost directly above the axle. The microphone clearly picked up the interaction of the gears within the rear-end!
http://youtu.be/034kKaQXo-0 (http://youtu.be/034kKaQXo-0)
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Congrats guys looks like some pretty happy air back there :-) Does Eric think the rear wheel fairings or the main body is causing the chute to fly to the inside of the turn?
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Good data, those QC's are noisy. the chute looked great, also looked like good straight runs, love it, just think how much fun the salt will bring. :cheers:
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Congrats guys looks like some pretty happy air back there :-)
sure does! That exhaust is nowhere near the velocity it will be on a high speed pass, we made no boost at all. The black smoke was due to a 140 degree peak block temp and 36 degree inlet air.If you look closely, those exhaust plumes are clearly re-attatching at the tip of the stinger.
Granted we had no flap applied, so this was a clean aerodynamic profile. It is interesting to view though, it looks like the exhaust gasses are forming a 12" cylinder that follows the car very consistently and without much turbulence.
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The chutes were blown to the right of the car's path by a fairly stiff breeze. If we had slowed just a bit more and the chute deflated before the turn we wouldn't have picked the taxi light off.
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Congratulations guys, another very successful step.
Lots of valuable data and familiarisation that will set you up for a good "first" crack at the salt.
I can only imagine how disappointed you all were not to be at the salt this year but its all going feel very natural by the time the salt is ready for you next year.
jon
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Congratulations on your outing.
And a big THANK YOU to Sparky and JoeA for the loan or ? of the tires which made this possible. (http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/happy/thumbs-up.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/emoticons.html)
Tom G.
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AWESOME!!!!
The way the exhaust leaves the tip of the tail says it all, sensational car that.Great to see everything coming together so well. Congratulations again.
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Brandon, just posted this in the Wilmington Picture Thread:
In the second video it looks like the top of the wheel covering is moving around as speed increases.
Is it just me or does anyone else see it? I don't think the camera is playing tricks because I don't see it anywhere else.
Gregg
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I see it but the vehicle is rigid mounted in the rear and could be track surface causing the flutter, might need a stiffner added. The front view wasn't that clear, it could also be the camera mounting.On the vesco liner we have two forward and two facing aft. adding one more in the cockpit as well. They really tell a good story of our runs.
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Rob, I watched both videos. Nice stuff. The car looks great. What a job you guys did!!! :cheers:
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It's definitely not the wind causing movement on the wheel fairing. It was the bumpy ride. Overall it is very smooth and I'm certainly not complaining. No way around those expansion joints. I can't wait to get back to Wilmington next year for more testing and to get Brandon in the car. We probably should have let the air pressure of rear tires down to 50 from 90psi. Would have rode much smoother. Never even thought of it.
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We are considering El Mirage but wow, that's a long ride.
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El Mirage is a long trip and IFFY this time of year. You would be restricted to the full drivers tests and if lucky to get two runs in. As november is a two day meet maybe 4 runs. The lake bed is pretty soft and bumpy at times. If I were you continue with the testing at Ohio then to Bonneville. :cheers:
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I agree. And if the winds crank up at Elmo in the afternoon, like they usually do, you will have even less time for runs.
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good stuff Rob...on the "smoothness"....good the way you tested...more "real" world...in that Bonneville
wont generally be "smoother"....and the speeds MUCH higher as well as the accompanying forces....
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Great to see the missle in action. I managed to get some pics on your second run. Saddly though never made to your pit for the drool session as Amy was on a mission to 150. May haps next year. Congrats on the lessons learned.
Frank.
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Great to see the missle in action. I managed to get some pics on your second run. Saddly though never made to your pit for the drool session as Amy was on a mission to 150. May haps next year. Congrats on the lessons learned.
Frank.
What is really interesting is that we never made it into the pits. Since there is so much room on the open trailer, we have been able to "pit" wherever the trailer happens to be.
All of the pitting to date has been in line waiting to run. If we can figure out how to mount the easy-up on the open trailer, we may never put roots down!
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get Stainless to show you his arangement
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The only time the Vesco liners are off the trailers is on the starting line, all maint. worl is done on the trailer except a engine change on the 444 car. Tralers are made narrow for that reason. Easier at that height to work on. BTW your trailer and lift are neat as well as the transport supports at the wheel location, good planning. :cheers:
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The only time the Vesco liners are off the trailers is on the starting line, all maint. worl is done on the trailer except a engine change on the 444 car. Tralers are made narrow for that reason. Easier at that height to work on. BTW your trailer and lift are neat as well as the transport supports at the wheel location, good planning. :cheers:
The crane comes in real handy too for things other than lifting/lowering the car to the ground. Wheel inspection, lower bay work, fuselage removal... anything that you need to get under the car for.
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Like the car, the trailer and crane combo were very well thoughtout and it was amazing to see you guys swing the car off of it!
I think the trailer was almost as good as seeing the car!.....I said almost! :-D
OK, I lied, car was MUCH better! :cheers:
Gregg
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When you add shade, I would suggest the black mesh tarp. We got ours at the farm store, cattle guard, shade for livestock, definitely worth the extra cost past a blue tarp.
We never use the pit, except to store the stuff we hope we never need. We have a work table, tool box and storage on our mobile pit. here are a few pics
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Great job guys. I'm really curious about your panel fastening.
Question - would you guys mind sharing how your panels are secured? It looks like your using 120 degree flat heads along with tinnerman washers in all locations. Or are these tiny quarter turn fasteners? What size are these? Can you share the PN and source of the washers your using?
Also what hardware do you use on the back side? Nut plates? After doing some service do you have any concerns about the longevity of this combination?
I was planning on going allen head DZUS but I think this method might provide more positive retention. Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks!
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Great job guys. I'm really curious about your panel fastening.
Question - would you guys mind sharing how your panels are secured? It looks like your using 120 degree flat heads along with tinnerman washers in all locations. Or are these tiny quarter turn fasteners? What size are these? Can you share the PN and source of the washers your using?
Also what hardware do you use on the back side? Nut plates? After doing some service do you have any concerns about the longevity of this combination?
I was planning on going allen head DZUS but I think this method might provide more positive retention. Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks!
The fasteners are 100 degree flat-head 10-32 screws. Those that don't get frequently removed are stainless, those that do are CAD plated.
The fastener setup we used consists of three pieces: a floating nut plate, a recessed flat washer and the screw. All three pieces were sourced at Aircraft Spruce. They have an on-line catalog and a hard copy catalog. The screws are available in 1/8th inch increments and the nut plates both float as well as provide a mechanical locking/anti-back-out safety for the screws.
I know for sure on our facebook page there are pictures of the nut plates, I can't remember if I put them here on our build thread or not. When I get in front of a computer I will check this thread. If the pictures aren't here, I'll add them.
I don't have the full part numbers in front of me, only the memorized three digits that are used to identify the nut plates by size. The online catalog is easy to navigate though, you won't have any issues locating the screws, washers and nut plates.
When you are ready to tie into the project of installing the nut plates and counter-sinking the washers, we have a couple of tools we had professionally made that will help you out greatly.
I'll dig out the pictures and create a post detailing out the operation of installing the fasteners. I think it would be useful to others to see how we did it.
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Stainless the feature that grabbed me is your ability to "Swing the Shade" to follow the sun to keep it blocked.
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Rob,
Just a suggestion regarding your 10-32 flat head retainer bolts and the floating nut nut plates. As the nuts are of the "deformed thread" locking style I would highly suggest a coat of anti seize on each fastener every once and a while. My roadster that I have taken to Bonneville at least the last 5 or 6 years and is driven alot on the salt uses a type of nut plate with the same type of nut, to hold on almost all of my body panels and interior aluminum panels and even though I pretty much dis-assemble and clean after getting home I still coat the 10-32s with anti seize to ensure they come out, that little 1/8 hex that can turn round pretty quickly when the bolts get tight and if it doesn't go round the hex hole in the bolt will and then it becomes a real "pain in the a$$!"
Rex
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Rob,
Just a suggestion regarding your 10-32 flat head retainer bolts and the floating nut nut plates. As the nuts are of the "deformed thread" locking style I would highly suggest a coat of anti seize on each fastener every once and a while. My roadster that I have taken to Bonneville at least the last 5 or 6 years and is driven alot on the salt uses a type of nut plate with the same type of nut, to hold on almost all of my body panels and interior aluminum panels and even though I pretty much dis-assemble and clean after getting home I still coat the 10-32s with anti seize to ensure they come out, that little 1/8 hex that can turn round pretty quickly when the bolts get tight and if it doesn't go round the hex hole in the bolt will and then it becomes a real "pain in the a$$!"
Rex
Good advice, Rex. I use "Nikal" anti-seize for most applications.
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Thanks for the explanation. Much appreciated!
Any pictures or part numbers you can share would be great. I've always found it interesting that nobody makes tools for contouring fiberglass for such washers or the DZUS's with the spring and plate; I guess most guys apply these to sheetmetal so its less of an issue for them. Its certainly easier to make a forming tool for sheetmetal then a cutting tool for fiberglass.
I think this valuable detail would be really helpful to lots of like minded people!
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Josh, I did have a couple of those tools for c-sink / c-boring washers made. Should get delivered any day now. Do you want one? I have to warn you, they were not cheap.
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The crazy part about this body mounting system which unlike a dzus fasteners that add very little structural strength, this closely spaced screw and washer system really adds to the overall strength of the chassis. We have seen the tell tale signs of this like minimized flex when lifting car from its center balance point.
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I'd be interested in some pictures too please Rob, I don't do Facebook.
If both the assembled retainers and the tooling if that's ok.
Thanks
jon
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Jon, You don't do Facebook?????? :-o :evil:
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SMART man :cheers:
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Jon, You don't do Facebook?????? :-o :evil:
What's this facebook thing I keep hearing about... the way someone collects info on you to sell to the highest bidder?
Back to subject...
Wow, what a project, you guys should be extremely proud of what you have accomplished over the last year. See you on the salt. 8-)
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I don't do it either.
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The crazy part about this body mounting system which unlike a dzus fasteners that add very little structural strength, this closely spaced screw and washer system really adds to the overall strength of the chassis. We have seen the tell tale signs of this like minimized flex when lifting car from its center balance point. How Eric aligned the fibers of the composite also has something to do with how stiff the overall structure is. Can't put it into words but you can almost feel the car get stiffer with each fastener that gets installed.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/04/tagapypy.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/04/epyha2u5.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/04/ma6y3e2y.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/04/ne5eny4y.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/04/7yru4ube.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/04/tamu6a7u.jpg)
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Best way we found for
Mounting a panel:
1) position panel against body mount
2) drill .159 hole thru panel and body mount.
3) Clearance hole in composite panel. This is important as you do not want to tap composite or it will wear your tap fast.
4) Tap 10-32 thru body mount
attach panel with 10-32 button heads. Use alloys as stainless may gall and hex will wear rapidly.
5) When you are happy with how panel fits (also adjacent panels) remove button head screw (1 at a time) and c-sink / c-bore panel with custom tool. You will notice that not all thru holes will not align perfectly with tapped hole once you get all the temp fasteners in and it's been on and off a couple of times and temperature of shop has changed etc. other factors that will influence how far off some holes will be how large the panel is, how much it needed flexed to bring panel to the body mounts, the phase of the moon, your biorhythms, etc. Now here's the cool part, as long as you can get the pilot of custom tool (.156 dia) into the tapped hole, the custom tool will cut the c-sink and c-bore concentric with the tapped hole. It will sort of recenter the hole in the composite panel and that is a beautiful thing.
6) When all holes are completed, you can remove the panel and install nut plates in body mount. We have devised a couple of tools to speed this process also. Let me know if you need them and I will email you the PDF to make the tools.
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WOW is the little piano hinge the chute door? I was amazed that it flew open and just stayed there--no fluttering or flopping!
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No , that pic is of the canopy hinge which is exactly the same as the parachute door.
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No , that pic is of the canopy hinge which is exactly the same as the parachute door.
The piano hinges all stick up off the body surface about .06. Making them flush will be a task that we should have done by Speedweek.
We will just need to fab some .06 spacers to fit between the hinge and body.
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Thanks Rob
Couple more questions if you don't mind please:
How thick is your body shell? I have Bidirectional cloth (can't remember what weight) and no glass experience.
I'm not sure how many layers to put on, figure if I get a decent resin to cloth ratio and end up about the same thickness I should be close.
How does the piano hinge go working on a compound curve?
Thanks
jon
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WOW is the little piano hinge the chute door? I was amazed that it flew open and just stayed there--no fluttering or flopping!
That was one of the tests we wanted to perform last weekend. The doors were mounted at a specific angle to actually "fly" in the open position.
The goal was to get the angle perfect so the door didn't slam open or stick shut. Getting the angle right meant the door would open when released even if the spring on the pilot chute didn't push the door open.
We also couldn't put a tether on the primary door since it would get in the way of the secondary if we needed it. The angle seems pretty good as you stated in your comment, it rides pretty stable in the open position.
We didn't get a video of the secondary chute door in action, it wouldn't have mattered anyway. When we deployed the first chute, it damaged the secondary chute door. It took many views of the video to determine how, but it was actually a pretty simple problem.
If you watch the video of the chute release, right when the tether goes taunt, you can see the door get booger'd up. If you pause it just right, you can see a green sheath being thrown up. It turns out the green sheath is on the reserve chute. When the primary was packed, we accidentally let the secondary tether get on top of the primary. When the chute snapped tight, it threw the secondary tether up and broke the door.
It is an easy fix for both the door and preventing it from happening again. We had made molds of the doors in case the became damaged and have figured out what we need to do to separate the tethers.
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Thanks Rob
Couple more questions if you don't mind please:
How thick is your body shell? I have Bidirectional cloth (can't remember what weight) and no glass experience.
I'm not sure how many layers to put on, figure if I get a decent resin to cloth ratio and end up about the same thickness I should be close.
How does the piano hinge go working on a compound curve?
Thanks
jon
Layup schedule changed as to what piece we were working on. Fuselage, wing and wheel pants are completely different. I recommend you talk to Blue before ordering more material . He is a composites engineer and maybe one of the best for this type of work.
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The piano hinge will not work on a compound curve, it will barely work on a simple curve. The locations that we place the piano hinges (canopy and both chute doors) were straight (only slightly curved) runs. It will not take much diflection to make the hinge non-functional.
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Nahh, leave the hinges up a bit . . . VORTEX GENERATORS!
I've used that for about 30 years to bamboozle folks!
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To borrow a phrase from Phil "Happy, Happy, Happy" AIR---just double wow to get the exhaust to JOIN the vortex tube is just amazing to me
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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I B I need your e-mail address.
Did you get food poisioning yesterday?
FREUD
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I'm exited. T-shirts are supposed to be done tomorrow! Ordered 300.
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Hey Rob
Shorten up the gear and run that beauty at Elmo in the Nov meet, lot easer to clean off lakes dust than salt
If it is promising you could run a few meets next spring and get it sorted out before Speedweek
Just a thought
G Don
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DND, the thing is at El Mo they will have to go through the whole driver license program. On a good day two runs, it's a 2 day meet so maybe 4 runs total if the wind and dust doesn't shorten the meet. Thats a long way to tow for maybe's.
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And all the drool will turn to mud! :-D
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lol
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At least he could put his foot in it and not have to light foot it like now on a Airport runway
Need to gas it up and see what it does good or bad, and start tuning it in for a serious race car
G Don
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I think I'd bet on being able to stop on a mile of asphalt than a mile of loose dirt.
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LOL sounds like and El MO veteran to me :-D
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DND, your attitude would have you looking down the barrel
of a gun to see if the bullet comes out the first time you pull the trigger.
They built it and they know what they need to learn about it.
Don't be confused..........it is a race car.
FREUD
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And all this time we thought Freud was just a funny guy that took great pictures...
Best advice I've seen in a long time,
take the baby steps guys, there is plenty of time
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Tuning isn't the problem. It's them little SOBs called "GREMLINS" they need to get rid of. Keep at it guys. Can't wait to see it run.
Ron
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At least he could put his foot in it and not have to light foot it like now on a Airport runway
Need to gas it up and see what it does good or bad, and start tuning it in for a serious race car
G Don
Put your foot into it at El Mirage? I wish [ but working on it] :-D
JL222 :cheers:
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Next years list includes-
1) work on thermal management ( double insulate anything that can ignite)
2) build spare engine
3) expand secondary chute box a bit.
4) run the car on chassis Dyno
5) build new rear fairings (maybe)
6) move outrigger on trailer
7) rebuild transmission in Denali
Aside from these items we should have an easy year in 2014.
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Next years list includes-
1) work on thermal management ( double insulate anything that can ignite)
2) build spare engine
3) expand secondary chute box a bit.
4) run the car on chassis Dyno
5) build new rear fairings (maybe)
6) move outrigger on trailer
7) rebuild transmission in Denali
Aside from these items we should have an easy year in 2014.
8.) Find sponsor. :-)
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Next years list includes-
2) build spare engine
I have a 'spare' engine you can use..... :evil:
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Loring next July is 1 1/2 miles with 1 mile shutdown. Wide smooth and fairly new asphalt.
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Loring next July is 1 1/2 miles with 1 mile shutdown. Wide smooth and fairly new asphalt.
Biggest problem is rear tires. If I try to put any power at all through those rear Mickeys, they will cord instantly and cost me $1500 +.
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Rob......check this post on Target550. The tires that Marlo had prepared for testing in either the dirt or on pavement
have a 250 MPH rating. http://www.target550.com/gallery/172_tires_tanks_reassembly/172_002_jpg.html
There are 7 fotos that relate to the tires and wheels.
You could call him if you want to. It is a possibility for future consideration.
FREUD
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These Dunlops are getting very hard to come by also
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Just hot off the phone with Tom at Roger Krause. Looks like the 30" x 7.00 x 17 Dunlop is going to work great for us ! They are out of them right now but will be getting more in soon. He made it sound like they will be available.
This could serve functions. We could run them at Ohio Mile while we do more testing and we could run them at Bonneville up to 250 for when the crew wants to make licensing passes.
I really wish the Mickeys came with another .050 of rubber on them even if they had to lower the speed rating on them a bit.
Ron Main said that they are getting about 12miles to a set of these tires. Does it really have to be like this?
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Ron Main said that they are getting about 12miles to a set of these tires. Does it really have to be like this?
What is the theory of these tires? At what point should they be retired? We have some that have the cords showing but don't think there is any danger of running them with just two lines...
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Here is what MT has to say
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To the crew and Thursday nite builders of the most beautiful car that I have ever had the pleasure of working on,(There has been quite a few in my 60+ years) THANK YOU :-D
Aside from the 2400 mile trip in bad weather :x, it was well worth the round trip. I want to give Eric and Matt, who never got mentioned, and deserves a job well done on doing the sanding on the molds.
Rob when the car is ready and you have a venue to run close to Reno, NV.
I WANNA DRIVE :evil: Just to get my ticket. I don't think SCCA will honor my Top Fuel license from NHRA counts.
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They seem to honor Pro Stock licenses.
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Rob,
I noticed that your No. 5 on the "to do" list is to make new rear wheel fairings (maybe) is this from what was shown in the video of your runs on the mile? The upper leading edge appeared to vibrate.
Rex
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Here is what MT has to say
Thanks
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"I don't think SCCA will honor my Top Fuel license from NHRA counts.
SCCA doesn't play a role here.
Just sayin'
DW
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Rob,
I noticed that your No. 5 on the "to do" list is to make new rear wheel fairings (maybe) is this from what was shown in the video of your runs on the mile? The upper leading edge appeared to vibrate.
Rex
Rex , the flexing was due to the really bumpy surface of the run way. Since the distances between expansion joints are the same, you can see in the video that the vibrating frequency goes up very linearly with speed. I'm 99% sure that this is not aero flutter.
On the same note really bumpy surface is relative. It's actually pretty smooth but with no rear suspension and 90 psi in rear tires, it was a bit rough.
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Ron Main called the other day and invited the 496 Streamliner to the Grand National Roadster Show in January. We talked about it for a bit and made a decision to accept his invitation.
Brandon and I are very exited about meeting all all our west coast friends and being able to converse in in a relaxed atmosphere instead of the pressures and time restraints of Speedweek.
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The Treit and Davenport 'liner will be next to you.
See you there.
Thanks Ron for giving us a chance to meet Rob w/o driving to PA.
FREUD
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And I will be the drooling LSR groupie standing between you! :-o :-o
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Looks like I'll be heading south come GNRS time.
Rex
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Rob, that's great news! Now I won't have to wait till Bonneville to see your creation. Damon (our metalshaper) and I will be there to support the appearance of our "sister" car, the 534/1534 Hot Rod Hoodlums roadster.
Rex, PM me your cell# so we can get together if you come down.
vic
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WoW what a gathering of EAGLES that will be!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Nice!! :cheers: :cheers:
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I thinking it is going to be a great time!
Not looking forward to crossing the Rockies on January with an open trailer. We will probably just shrink wrap the car before we leave.
We will just need to spend a little extra time cleaning her up when we get there.
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drop down and come through El Paso and Phoenix---free room and board :-D and drinks are on me!!
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I thinking it is going to be a great time!
Not looking forward to crossing the Rockies on January with an open trailer. We will probably just shrink wrap the car before we leave.
We will just need to spend a little extra time cleaning her up when we get there.
If you come through Tucson (I-10), let me know-- you can stay the night here and then go up to Sparky's in Phoenix.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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.....Not looking forward to crossing the Rockies on January with an open trailer. ...
You shouldn't be crossing the Rockies. Drop down to St. Louis then 44 to I40 in Ok over to I15 in CA, down to I10 then west into Pomona. Of course that time of year there can be snow across the TX panhandle, NM and AZ. I'd plan on leaving up to a few days early and look for a weather window that looks good in those states. They get snow but not a lot (usually :-) ).
Have a great trip and if the car was ready for next year I'm sure you could find a place to leave it in the west,
Sum
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Just got an E mail from Danny Thompson and he will have both of the Challengers at the GNRS!!! It just keeps getting better!!
Rex
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Just got an E mail from Danny Thompson and he will have both of the Challengers at the GNRS!!! It just keeps getting better!!
Rex
WOW!
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Please note that I've started a thread for the GNRS 2014. We're talking about the show enough that we might as well have a dedicated place to chat about it. It's titled GNRS Grand National Roadster Show 2014 (naturally). :cheers: :cheers:
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Sparky and Neil, I will make plans to visit both of you. I am really starting to look forward to this!
We needed a picture for Ron M. to put in the program and it occurred to me that we had no pictures of the car by itself off of the trailer. We then proceeded up to our local airport and took some pics.
Here they are.
http://s749.photobucket.com/user/BR_LSR/slideshow/Finished%20Streamliner%20at%20Airport
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Great!! :cheers:
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Rob, those are some of the nicest photographs I've seen. Congratulations on all the great work you guys have done. Travel safely and enjoy the show. :cheers:
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Rob, what building are you in? We are in building 9.
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I think we are all together. Maybe LSR guys under one roof?
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There is a good chance that everyone is under the same roof.
It's a huge building.
FREUD
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Absolutely gorgeous, Rob. I hope that you and the Target 550 team get a chance to compete together in 2014. I'll see ya at the show.
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Fantastic pictures of the car.
Having seen the Carbonliner in person at Wilmington I was blown away by the detail and quality of the car. I'm sure this will be one of the crowd favorites on display in Pomona. :cheers:
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Thanks for the kind words Ronnie!
Last Thursday we took the car to Mars High school where I did six 20 min power point presentations for the physics and tech students.
It was great fun and the kids seem to enjoy it. Here is the Facebook link to see more.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=423717404396526&id=115785421856394
Don't think you need to have a Facebook account to see.
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Rob...Good for you. I have helped the local High School with their Senior Class Project, so I know what an Impression you must have made. I will say, though, that I am a bit worried about the Staff Member in the Red Shirt.....I wouln`t tell him where you keep the car..... :-D :cheers:
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Good on ya Rob!
By the smiles on all the faces, I'd say the kids enjoyed it and hopefully they learned something as well.
I'm with Kiwi Paul about the one in the red shirt.....LOL! :-D
As a side question, you guys going bring the Carbiliner back to Wilmington next year?
Gregg
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Rob,
That is an experience that these kids will never forget. Who knows what kind of
spark that it will ignite.
They sure didn't have any presentations like that when I went to Mars High School.
I seem to remember that we had to provide our own learning experience near the high
school on Rt. 228.
Times sure do change.
Dave
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Gregg,
It would be great to take the car back to Wilmington again next summer for purpose of getting Brandon a chance to drive the car before we get to Speedweek.
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Gregg,
It would be great to take the car back to Wilmington again next summer for purpose of getting Brandon a chance to drive the car before we get to Speedweek.
Sounds good! I'll be there for all meets next year and look forward to seeing you guys there.
Gregg
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Rob I've been enjoying all of the pictures on your site....
http://www.carbinitelsr.com/ (http://www.carbinitelsr.com/)
..thanks for taking the time to do that.
I had a question about your chutes and how they are deployed.
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/carbinite-496%20streamliner-2.jpg)
Are you running a total of 2 or 3 (maybe 2 in the larger box?)? I assume they attach where the arrow is pointing. Do you have any pictures that you would share of the finished boxes and how you are handling the doors and deployment of the chutes themselves?
I think I'm going to abandon what I have already made ...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-3/02-18-09-14-chute-doors.jpg)
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/construction%20page-95.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/construction%20page-95.html)
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-3/construction%20page-132.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-3/construction%20page-132.html)
.....and I'm looking for alternatives. Thanks,
Sum
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Sum,
We plan on using two chutes. The primary chute is in the back behind the rear end. The secondary chute is in front of the rear end.
You are correct about the location of the tether point. The tethers exit the body through the primary chute door opening. This mean that if I accidentally deploy secondary chute first it will smash the primary door.
The secondary door is shaped like fly swatter.
The handle of the fly swatter is what let's the riser come through the body work between the two boxes. I can make you a video of how this works if the weather warms s bit. Right now the car is under 6" of snow.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/01/a9u4eqeg.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/01/tesaze3e.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/01/hybasege.jpg)
I studied your design for a bit . Why would you want to change what you have. It looks pretty good to me. Are you contend about the drogue chutes clearing the doors?
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Thanks, so the back doors are two, with each half opening to the side? The front door is single hinged at the front? Chutes spring launched?
We went with a spring launch at about 45 deg. from Stroud on Hooley's Stude this year and like it, but the chute seemed to stay high, but we have no pictures to confirm that. Stroud lengthened the tether and we will try and get a rear camera when we go back. Launching like that definitely got the chute right up in the air. It looks like you might be doing about the same.
Have you considered a third chute to use if you run the international course at Cook's meet? At the speeds you will be running I think I'd like a third as insurance when running towards the interstate.
I'd for sure be interested in video when you get a chance and I'm sure others would also. I can't remember now if you deployed the chutes when you ran the mile. The snow you have was probably some left over from some that was here about 5 days ago. Gone for now but I'm sure we will see more before we are out of here.
....I studied your design for a bit . Why would you want to change what you have. It looks pretty good to me. Are you contend about the drogue chutes clearing the doors?
I guess I'm worry about a malfunction of the chute doors and what that might do to the car at speed. If one side or the other did something other than open correctly it could steer the car off in one direction or the other. It would also be embarrassing to have them torn off by the air stream :cry: I'm like you and was trying not to leave anything on the table as far as aero. I have two tubes but will start with only one chute. I'll probably keep the doors and bolt them shut for now and stick the tube out the doors in a more conventional configuration. I did try and keep the doors neutral in the air stream when open. In fact as they open the leading edge opens first so that the air going in helps to open the doors until they are both parallel with the air stream and centerline of the car.
Stroud doesn't care for doors and the chute tubes that far in the body so recommended that I also put in smaller tubes with a smaller chute that would be blown out way past the back of the car and pull the main chute out. I'd go that route if I try and run the doors.
Also since I'm switching to a car motor I'm going to have to remove the rear axle/suspension I have now and put in a new solid mounted axle back about 3 feet on the car and might need the room where the chute tubes are now so that I don't have to lengthen the car.
If we were around here in Jan. I'd try and go to the Roadster show to see your car but I guess I'll have to wait until August :cry:
Thanks for all the pictures and the new ones you posted above,
Sum
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The tube doors on the Target 550 'liner were replaced by cloth type covers.
I'll post fotos of the new system soon.
FREUD
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When we pop the chutes, the drogue chutes pop up about 3' above the body. Both doors are single hinges on the same side. We also guesstimated the angle if the hinge line so the door flys the airstream without trying to pry the door ioff. The trick to this system is to keep the drogue from snagging on the latch on the way out.
We did make extra parachute doors I case we did not gestimate close enough the first time.
I'm feeling pretty good about the chute system after running at the Ohio Mile.
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Sum,
Here is what we did to satisfy your concerns about steering the car with the chute doors opening asymetrically and Bob Strouds regarding getting reliable deployment in the turbulent air. The tube for the spring loaded pilot and the tube for the chute in its bag are one unit. That unit is mounted on a square tube that slides fore and aft in another square tube mounted to the chassis. It is actuated either by an air cylinder or a cable. Moving the assembly to the rear pushes the doors open, gets the ends of the tube out to the slipstream and at the end of the travel releases the pilot.
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Sum,
Here is what we did to satisfy your concerns about steering the car with the chute doors opening asymetrically and Bob Strouds regarding getting reliable deployment in the turbulent air. The tube for the spring loaded pilot and the tube for the chute in its bag are one unit. That unit is mounted on a square tube that slides fore and aft in another square tube mounted to the chassis. It is actuated either by an air cylinder or a cable. Moving the assembly to the rear pushes the doors open, gets the ends of the tube out to the slipstream and at the end of the travel releases the pilot...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/K-Stream%20Liner-2.jpg)
That sounds like a great solution to a couple problems. I might look to see if I can copy that if you don't mind :-).
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/K-Stream%20Liner-1.jpg)
Thanks for the follow-up and pictures,
Sum
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Sorry if this has been posted here before, but I saw this image and immediately recognized the Carbinite Streamliner. -Dean
(http://chuckmannonsportstradingcards1.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/bellytank.jpg)
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CARBINITE LINER travels.
Rob, Brandon & crew will be at my house with the Liner
Monday Jan 20 and .
Linda and I will host sort of an open house. There will be Burgers and Dogs with pop and beer available from 3 untill 7:00. They should be here by 3:00 PM. They will spend the night and leave for LA and the roadster show Tues. am.. Their car will be on display on their trailer and my car will be in my shop. Please come by to see this stunning car in person and say hello to all of us.
Please send me a note and let me know how many so that I can buy enough "stuff". Please feel free to bring all your friends.
Sparky 602-762-2211
sparky.2211@cox.net
3402 E. Libby St
Phoenix
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Sorry if this has been posted here before, but I saw this image and immediately recognized the Carbinite Streamliner. -Dean
(http://chuckmannonsportstradingcards1.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/bellytank.jpg)
Like my father in law always said, " when it comes to automotive stuff, There is nothing new under the sun". :-)
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Rob & Brandon will be heading WEST so :cheers: here is to a dry and safe trip out! It now looks like there could be around 3 doz. folks drop by on Monday afternoon to welcome them to the Valley of the SUN. For you other folks I have 2 neighbors that have not run their heating systems this year.. :roll:
My wife has changed the menu slightly by adding additional items to the menu :-) we are also having SLOPPY JOES served from 4:00 to 7:00
602-762-2211
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Wow! So very cool! Sparky, Thank you so much for hosting!
We will be leaving about 10am this morning. Plan on heading through Nashville to stay in best weather.
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Looking forward to seeing the liner @GNRS. I'll be there with the 534 roadster Hoodlums. Have a safe trip - I40 can get black ice-y this time of year. vic
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Wish I didn't have to work. :-( I'd love to be there! Take care guys! :cheers:
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sorry to hear that I was hoping for some visitors from down south
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Looking forward to seeing the liner @GNRS. I'll be there with the 534 roadster Hoodlums. Have a safe trip - I40 can get black ice-y this time of year. vic
Vic,
hanks for the black ice warning. Lookin forward to seeing you and your Hot Rod again.
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Just received a text--They are on I-40 in Tenn. headed West--on schedule truck and trailer are working fine!! Linda is already cooking so we hope to host lots of LSR fans. Good time to be had by all Monday evening at 3402 E. Libby St Phoenix. 602-762-2211
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Your a good guy Sparky. :cheers:
Tom G.
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Actually riding inside the streamliner right now on route 40 at about 75 miles an hour. I wanted to test it was back here you know how much of a bea(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/20/y5adesu2.jpg)ting of the car just transporting it. Also I wanted to test the vents at the base of the windshield for pressurizing inside of the cabin. They work great.
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When as fast as 86 miles per are now traveling through Amarillo. This is pretty fun.
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Wow, I was just about to ask if that was OK or TX panhandle... you beat me to it
Keep an eye out for Jonny... :cheers:
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I wonder if I give it more flap angle if I can pick up the rear of the Denali.LOL!
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I do have the five point harness on.
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I do have the five point harness on.
And helmet? :-D
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It is 75 all the way to Phoenix from there!!!!!!!!!!! LEGAL
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At this rate you will be in Phoenix by 9:00pm MST the beds will be made made
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Are you making vroom vroom sounds? :-D
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Are you making vroom vroom sounds? :-D
You know, in all the excitement, I forgot! I'm not above admitting that I do that, I just forgot to! LOL.
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Sparky and the gang are going to really enjoy seeing this amazing streamliner. Its got to be a trip watching the expressions of people on the road when they see the car along the way. Were heading west {I would say flying out but some smart ass would say my arms would get tired LOL} see you guys in Pomona. The 1946 roadster is already in Pomona sent from CONN the crew will bring it over to the Fairplex on Wednesday. :cheers:
Ronnieroadster
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Thanks Rob for making the stop at Sparky's and showcasing your Carbinite Streamliner for us folks in Phoenix, Arizona -- much appreciated!
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GNRS has been a blast! One more day to go. It's been great to meet so many Landracing,com members. I can now put more faces with names. We get a ton of compliments about the paint. Most people think it is Carbinite Metal Coating..
Her are a couple of pics after things card down today.(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/26/udava6ab.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/26/u3u6uryn.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/26/eqe6ased.jpg)
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Rob, love your car. Can't wait to see it at SW.
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Marvelous car.
MARVELOUS PEOPLE.
Perfect windshield also.
Welcome to the West.
FREUD
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Had an awesome time at the GNRS. It was great to get to meet and talk with people. What was really interesting is that there was plenty of time to chat since nobody was rushing to wrench on their stuff - unlike when we are at the salt.
Here's a couple of notable pics that I took.
We were "pit'd" next to Marlo and the Target 550 crew. Somehow this guy slipped security and performed some espionage against us!
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/Streamliner/IMAG0717_zpsce078d94.jpg)
I didn't get a picture of Ed Shadle when he sat in the car, but shortly thereafter, Jessi came by. She said it wasn't fair that Ed got to sit in it and she didn't so we rectified that condition for her.
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/Streamliner/IMAG0722_zpsdfeaf53b.jpg)
Lizzy Leggett stopped by too.
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/Streamliner/IMAG0699_zps08ba04c5.jpg)
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We were "pit'd" next to Marlo and the Target 550 crew. Somehow this guy slipped security and performed some espionage against us!
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/Streamliner/IMAG0717_zpsce078d94.jpg)
Where's security when you really need them?? :-D
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He's standing right there!. :-D
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At least he's got his clothes on.
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He told me if his shoes hadn't been double knotted, he would have taken his clothes off when I closed the canopy. He was going to jump out like the girl from a birthday cake!
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bbarn I thought those pills I gave you would keep your mouth shut.
I failed again.
FREUD
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Rob,
It was nice to finally be able to meet you at the GNRS. Your car looks great and fast just sitting there. I will look you up at Bonneville.
Tom G.
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Rob,
It was nice to finally be able to meet you at the GNRS. Your car looks great and fast just sitting there. I will look you up at Bonneville.
Tom G.
It was great to finally meet you also. It a shame you could not join us for dinner but thank you very much for the contribution. We had STEAK!
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We left Southern California at noon on Monday and it was close to 80 degrees. Less than 36 hours later we drove through Ohio where it was -20 degrees. A full 100 degree swing. Ouch!
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Rob and crew it was great to meet all of you at the RS. Your car drew a good crowd. Very impressive build, the salt it next. see you there. :cheers:
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Rob,
It was nice to finally be able to meet you at the GNRS. Your car looks great and fast just sitting there. I will look you up at Bonneville.
Tom G.
It was great to finally meet you also. It a shame you could not join us for dinner but thank you very much for the contribution. We had STEAK!
Your welcome and I am glad you had steak, I hope it was good. Thanks for bringing the car out for all of us to see. Next time we will have dinner.
Tom G.
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Was down at the GNRS and the car looked great. Didn't get a chance to meet you because every time I went by you had a huge crowd around! When I first walked up I was a little speachless as I was looking at someone STANDING on the back of the car! I get pissed when people want to just touch paint stuff I've done, so that put me a bit over the edge! Other than that, the car is pretty freakin' cool!
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Seriously?? Standing on the back of the car?!?!?! :-o I think I would have come unglued even if it wasn't my car. That shows absolutely no respect for other peoples property. :x
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Rear wing will get repainted after intersection fairing are done.Demonstrating strength of composite work more important than looks at show. Texture of paint seemed to hide all shoe marks 100% so far. Did not want to chance a model in spike heeled shoes though. That might be bad. I wish you made the effort to introduce yourself though. Unless I was talking to a potential sponsor, Landracing members are always more important.
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Seriously?? Standing on the back of the car?!?!?! :-o I think I would have come unglued even if it wasn't my car. That shows absolutely no respect for other peoples property. :x
That was me, the person that designed and helped build the composite structure with the rest of the team. A while back, Rob and I were taking a little bit of concern from some in the tech community who thought composites would be too weak to take the several thousand pounds of load we were designing for. The dynamic pressure at our design speed is over 500 psf, so if someone can't literally jump up and down on it it's not strong enough.
It's Rob and my design, and yes, I can jump up and down on it. The crew did a great job.
I would caution anyone dreaming of 500+ that if they can't do the same, the bodywork simply won't survive the air loads. All weekend I was asked many questions about our composites. I often responded by whacking the side of the car as hard as I could with my fist. Never left a mark.
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Eric, that must be because your fist is tuff... oh you meant no marks on the car :roll: You guys did an outstanding job, waiting to see the assault on the number... this could be the year it happens, by somebody
:cheers:
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Composites are way stronger than the average person thinks.
Rob, check out Basalt fibres. I got a few samples from Belguim.
Nice stuff and strong too.
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Seriously?? Standing on the back of the car?!?!?! :-o I think I would have come unglued even if it wasn't my car. That shows absolutely no respect for other peoples property. :x
That was me, the person that designed and helped build the composite structure with the rest of the team. A while back, Rob and I were taking a little bit of concern from some in the tech community who thought composites would be too weak to take the several thousand pounds of load we were designing for. The dynamic pressure at our design speed is over 500 psf, so if someone can't literally jump up and down on it it's not strong enough.
It's Rob and my design, and yes, I can jump up and down on it. The crew did a great job.
I would caution anyone dreaming of 500+ that if they can't do the same, the bodywork simply won't survive the air loads. All weekend I was asked many questions about our composites. I often responded by whacking the side of the car as hard as I could with my fist. Never left a mark.
Hi Eric, It was post #1017 that made it seem like an outsider was taking liberties with the liner. I did not mean to disrespect. I have been in too many car shows where there will be the "one" that will disrespect a builders dream car. You have no idea how that irks me.
Take care.....
We now return you to your regularly scheduled car thread. :cheers:
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Rob and Brandon, Looks like your car was a BIG hit at the GNRS! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Looking forward to seeing you guys at Wilmington this year!
Gregg
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Update:
We are currently building a new mold for the wheel pants. They will be 1" higher and 1" lower before the cap start. (21" between caps is now 23"). This will allow us to make the wheel well ID 36" vs the current 34".
This has all been a ton of work but we can't have the ID of the wheel wells limit out speed.
I also have a goal to make the pants lighter and stiffer. They will also have strakes and extended trailing edge to add to the aero stability.
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We figured there had to be an easier way of molding small composite parts. This is the interface fairing mold plug for the wing to wheel pant interface fairing. Fred Murch, team member and CNC machinist has been building his own 3D printer.
We had to make it in two pieces to fit on his machine but it glued together fine. Can't wait to layup fairing. Hopefully within the next couple of days.(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/16/amyvusa5.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/16/y2e6avaq.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/16/ne8y9ame.jpg)
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Technology continues to blow me away .................... and I'm not exactly light!!! :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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Very good, even better would be to tie the string on it and swing it around you and work it out to 10 to 15' of line. This gets it into much straighter air and gets the speed up well above a fan. I spent hours doing this with model rockets when I was kid. No BS, I admire anyone who tests.
I've been re-reading this great thread and I can't stress how amazingly well it has all come together. Simply stunning!
The quoted post sparked a neuron that had seen Alex Tremulis doing his aerodynamics on a shoestring and I finally found a photo of it in process with his wife, Chrissie, doing the poor man's wind tunnel test. This was about 50 years ago when all his calculations were drawn out on graph paper, long hand. Eerie coincidence as to the model he was testing. His models didn't just look good, they proved his streamlining philosophies were headed in the right direction (I assume counterclockwise in this case).
Anyway, I can't wait to hear and hopefully see your future success. All the best to you!
(http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu248/gyronaut/chrissiewindtunnelfb_zpse4a0869a.jpg)
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We have decided to build a new engine this year. We are now building a 540 ci Dart block, BMF headed BBC 2650hp mill.
This shoul give us a bit of reserve power and much more durability.
Started ordering parts a few week ago. Things are under way. Yeeeah Haaaaaw!
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We have decided to build a new engine this year. We are now building a 540 ci Dart block, BMF headed BBC 2650hp mill.
This shoul give us a bit of reserve power and much more durability.
Started ordering parts a few week ago. Things are under way. Yeeeah Haaaaaw!
Whew, 2650hp and added durability, that's amazing. With your drag numbers, what is a realistic target speed with this engine? Thanks, Dean
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Realistic numbers require better than realistic salt conditions. LOL!
It will really depend on how early we can start the hard acceleration.
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Realistic numbers require better than realistic salt conditions. LOL!
It will really depend on how early we can start the hard acceleration.
That's why I like those adjustable spoilers :-D
JL222
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During one of my visits to Rob's place he told me that with full flaps they could develop 3000 lbs of down force at 180 mph. If you assume that the coefficient of friction for the salt is about .25 ( low end of the scale) and the rear wheels carry 3000 lb of aero down force and 2000 lbs of car weight for a total of 5000 lbs, then at 180 mph they can apply 600 hp to the salt, at 360 it is 1200 hp and at 450 it is 1500 hp. If their aero numbers are close, and I certainly believe that Eric's (Blue) numbers are probably pretty accurate, their aero load at 450 is probably going to be in the 1500 hp range which they can easily apply to the salt, so they certainly appear to be a real contender for the 500 mph speed.
One of the really neat things about their design is that they can develop 3000 lbs of down force at 180 mph which could literally be by the 1-2 mile mark! With 2600 hp on tap we might see 400 by the three!!
Can't wait!!!
Rex
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Have you ever seen this?
:-o
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No, but who was that?.
I think I might know. :-)
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Vesco..
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I was wrong but thanks.
That was 2001!.
I would have loved to see that. :cheers:
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(http://www.freewebs.com/gt-one/Terbinator-SEMA02%20vesco.jpg)
:cheers:
Mike
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I timed Don's runs and signed the time slip and record certs, I am now a crew member on the Turbinator II.
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Vesco, FIA October 2001
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No, I've never seen the timing slip. but -- I'm pleased to say that both Nancy and I saw that run. Like so many others -- it was something to see and to remember. :cheers: :cheers:
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Pork Pie, Is it normal for the chute to fly so high?
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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only if you want to cringe when you see the photos---I have been in a car that the chute kited and lifted the rear and pulled it side ways was fortunate to "steer into the slide" and stayed in front of it
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Pork Pie, Is it normal for the chute to fly so high?
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Nope,
but so pictures helps the teams to fix the issue.....the Nish Streamliner had similar problems...and the #55 roadster was one with the twist behind the 5 mile marker....
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Rob, with the engine change, will you guys still be on the salt in August?
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Burkland had the same problem long ago.
They resolved it.
FREUD
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Educate me a little, please: what might cause the chute to "fly high"?
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Contact Joe at DJ Safety..
He is the guy .. he worked close with Jim Diest
He knows his stuff..
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Educate me a little, please: what might cause the chute to "fly high"?
Among the reasons are tether length, mounting point, type of chute (ribbon, tri-form or cross-form) and how the air comes off the car. I'm sure there are others, but that is a good start for a list.
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one of the main reason I mount a camera pointing to the rear is because of my experience--SS #1 pretty well nailed the cause
3 things can INFLUENCE it---notice I didn't say stop it
change how far it is behind the car---longer is usually better but not always
chute change
change the way air comes off the car by body design or air mod. devices
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I believe "X " form chutes fly lower than round ribbons.
Bigger diameter chutes fly higher than small. I suspect it has something to do with the boundary layer between the chute and ground.
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Rob,
You might check with Porkpie;
he has no doubt witnessed hundreds, if not thousands of "chutes popping", since he shoots many shots from the best vantage point available.
He might have your answer on the top of his head.
Jim
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540 ci BBC AA engine well under way. Dart big M w billet caps is here. Diamond pistons. Callie's crank, Oliver Rods and calico bearing should be here within the next couple of days. Jesel lifters, rocker system, belt drive also ordered. Cam is here. BMF heads w BeCu seats and steel guides inconel ex and Ti int valves also ordered.
We have built this combo before and we have a good tune for it. HP should not be an issue for us at Speedweek. Engine should be ready to go for USAFRA test session.
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Great NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Rob, while you are slowly running increased speeds you should be popping the chute to see how it flies.
Contact Pork Pie about taking chute pictures and helping with solutions if you have any issues.
X-forms and Tri-forms seem to be less particular than round ribbons... YMMV
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I be out there for the Target 550 team...not a problem to take care for the "66", too....you just joint the list for the parachute safety check picture
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Way to go PP :-D YOU are THE man :cheers:
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Pork Pie.........we look forward to seeing you.
FREUD
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88mm turbos are here!(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/09/a7a7e2am.jpg)
We can remount the intercooler and start the install on these puppies early this week.
I've bought these for customers before but never for us. We are getting exited now!
Also, all our Jesel stuff came on last week! Feels like Christmas!
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AHHH!--- the joys of Brown Santa!!
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B-b-b-b-brown, brown to the bone...It's a package machine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pnbIIykVGg&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pnbIIykVGg&feature=player_embedded)
:cheers: :cheers:
Mike
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Mike, that is the best commercial I ever watched :cheers:
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AHHH!--- the joys of Brown Santa!!
:cheers:to brown stains when things go to S--T :-o
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I love UPS.
(http://www2.gsu.edu/~usgtcmx/UPS_chick1.jpg)
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If this was my UPS lady, you could be sure I would have something delivered by UPS everyday! LOL!
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Carolina Carport showed up this morning at 8am with my new Streamliner shelter.
The car was built at the Carbinite shop but we have been so busy over there that there is no room for it. So I have been keeping and working on the car back at the house. With the new shelter it will be a bit easier to quit in the evenings as I don't have to make everything waterproof.(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/10/pe7e9y7u.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/10/a2a7y4ah.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/10/abysydut.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/10/ehanu6a3.jpg)
It took four workers just 2.5 hours to build it. We probably had 15 hours preparing the site. Team member Ted Wolf brought his bull dozer and it was a real blessing as there was much more dirt that needed moved than we imagined. Bulldozers are cool!!!(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/10/uqe9udaj.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/10/ehazy5yd.jpg)
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Also got the electric trailer tongue jack installed and sent chutes back to DJ to have tow lines shortened by 10ft each. Hopefully it will be much less challenging to stuff them back in their boxes. The primary box is plenty large. In fact, we will need a stuffer in there like a towel or something to take up the extra room to preload the drogue a bit more but the secondary is the challenging chute to load. I think once it gets any salt on it, even though it will be washed, it may never go back in.
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I getting this uncontrollable desire to order something via UPS! Thanks Sabat!
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Hmmm I think is see Brown Santa evolving to Brown Satan,
-- for sure that "BROWNIE" would cause a Flip Wilson moment:
"THE DEVIL made me DO IT"
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:cheers:
Salt does add a level of difficulty to the chutes :-D
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Rob, that shelter is awesome.
It's all class!!!!
I love the way it all goes together.
That system would make big bucks here.
A special car needs a classy shelter like that.
Your operation is very professional. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Rob, if you need to shorten your tube for a better fit a piece of hard insulating foam glued in the back will help. Hopefully your primary and secondary have different line lengths.
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I think DJ made the primary and secondary the same length. I will check on that. I would think it would be a bit better if primary was a bit longer.
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Fairings finally approaching completion. It was a much bigger job than I anticipated. Then again there were eight of them.(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/17/8ahara3u.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/17/duqebybu.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/17/yputu2e8.jpg)
Just need a few hours bodywork and we can cross this one off the list.
Also we cut in an ice hole for loading ice without taking entire engine cover off.
It is still attached with (10) 10-32 screws as it is structural.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/17/yvu3y3yt.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/17/yne5yqus.jpg)
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More pics of Hoerner style fairings.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/17/2yjavajy.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/17/anyraze5.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/17/pu7anuha.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/17/uvepy6ub.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/17/yqe8yder.jpg)
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:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I love it Rob.
Way to go man.
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WOW that is looking so "SPOT ON"
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Fairings look good Rob, you going to be at Speedweek?
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(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hand-gestures/awesome-smiley-emoticon.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/)
Tom G.
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Fairings look good Rob, you going to be at Speedweek?
Lord Willing, we we be there and the Usfra test session in 3 weeks.
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Looks like we are not going to have the 540 engine ready for the test session. No problem though as we will have the 496 back together soon. Port work, new valves, springs, retainers will give us a bit more power. Also we will run the 88mm turbos. We can safely make 1900 hp which should be enough to see if the body and chassis work okay. We also picked up an extra driveshaft today to add to our pile of spares.
I think we are taking the Denali to pull the car trailer and a mini van full of spares. If the 540 gets done, we will take it also.
Rick Yacoucci and Brad Bosworth are meeting us out there to help us and share their wisdom about getting up to speed. We feel blessed!!!!!
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Go Rob!!! :cheers:
I'm excited for you guys and one thing I know is that the reports and photos will be top notch.
I can't wait.
You'll do great stuff.
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Of all things, we had power issues at the test and tune.
Lots of heat damage in engine compartment when engine went lean and got the exhaust system very, very hot. The power train package was very well proven in Vinny so the lean thing sort if caught us off guard. Looks like there may have been two issues. The first is that the set screw on the Weldon pump came loose so we were only running on the aeromotive A1000 primary pump. We fixed this on Saturday but it still ran lean on Sunday. This weeks static flow test revealed that the diaphragm in the fuel pressure regulator has som major cracks in it and may be causing our erratic fuel pressure readings that we saw in the data log.
We will repeat the test with a new diaphragm tomorrow to confirm and then take the car to a chassis Dyno mid next week, Lord willing.
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Sorta like You. We didn't have any problems until we ran. Sigh.....................
It was nice to see you even if it was brief. Rufus says Hello.
FREUD
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Thats a big bummer. Was the engine hurt at all by the lean afr? What sort of damage was sustained in the engine bay? Is there a better way to manage exhaust heat whether over temp or otherwise?
And most importantly, how fast did you run and are you making speedweek?
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No major damage done other than turning the header wrap to glass! The piston squirters did a great job of keeping things from melting down.
The secondary fuel pump had some issues that prevented the necessary fuel volumes from being reached. We tested them this morning, the repairs seem complete. We'll get up on the dyno this week and confirm it.
As far as engine bay damage, it wasn't horrible. We melted some cables and wires, but not clear through. We were able to make another pass on Sunday but still had fuel issues. EGT went high and Rob wisely lifted.
We will use a fire sleeves on a few pieces and use rubber hoses instead of nylon or plastic. I don't see anything keeping us from making Speedweek.
The fastest pass was the second one at 273. That is the pass that ran high on the EGT.
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questions: (and glad to see that you made the test&tune and discovered the issue pre-SpeedWeek or Fall events)
a) how did the streamliner tract down the salt -- video looked good
b) did you leave the rear flaps in a static position or were they active?
c) how did the front aluminum wheels perform?
d) any comments on the chassis feel or directional characteristics of your "new design" streamliner?
Request: if you ever get the chance, can you take video of loading the streamliner on/off the trailer.
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questions: (and glad to see that you made the test&tune and discovered the issue pre-SpeedWeek or Fall events)
a) how did the streamliner tract down the salt -- video looked good
b) did you leave the rear flaps in a static position or were they active?
c) how did the front aluminum wheels perform?
d) any comments on the chassis feel or directional characteristics of your "new design" streamliner?
Request: if you ever get the chance, can you take video of loading the streamliner on/off the trailer.
The driver reported the car ran straight and true. The faster he went the more stable it was.
The flaps were active for the runs.
Front wheels worked well, they didn't mark the salt and took input real well.
There was a little crosswind on Sunday's run. The car handled it without issue. Overall we are very happy with the handling characteristics.
We have a couple short clips, we'll try and get a full video at Speedweek.
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Thanks bbarn.
We are happy that you achieved what you did.
You have come a long ways in a short short time.
FREUD
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Insert Quote
No major damage done other than turning the header wrap to glass! The piston squirters did a great job of keeping things from melting down
Jet-Hot Coating on Headers, are the way to go. No more fiber glass wrap.
Black Salt Racing suggested it to us.
http://www.jet-hot.com/coatings/
Richard 2
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Yes, we have used Jet hot before. We probably do not have time before Speedweek .
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We borrowed a Stroud Drouge chute from Sparky but someone also brought us a small DJ Drouge . We want to pay for it? If anybody know where it came from please tell us so that we can square up with them.
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We went to the Dyno on Friday and Saturday. Only made 1327whp. At least that's all we could measure as we were extremely traction limited.
http://youtu.be/kdbqR7UoT98
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Cool video, thanks Rob. :cheers:
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I thought that wing flap was supposed to take care of that :-D
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:-D :-D :-D :-D
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I thought that wing flap was supposed to take care of that :-D
Now that's funny stuff Bill :cheers:
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I thought that wing flap was supposed to take care of that :-D
Now that's funny stuff Bill :cheers:
Unfortunately, the fan we used only moved 3000 cfm at 12 mph... :)
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Rob,
Was that the new engine or the old mule?
Rex
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That the old 496
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I thought that wing flap was supposed to take care of that :-D
Now that's funny stuff Bill :cheers:
Unfortunately, the fan we used only moved 3000 cfm at 12 mph... :)
I think that car will move more than 3000 fans. I'm moved. :wink:
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Some assembly required!
The 496 is dyno'd and ready to go. Now we can put the 540 cid together as our "spare".
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/20140802_122445_zpsuh8tkaa8.jpg
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Jesel makes such nice stuff! There is a reason why it is so expensive. In the long run, it's actually cheaper.
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This winters project will be to put the Carbiliner on a diet. We are making new rear fairings that will be half the weight and stiffer than existing units. They will also allow for more tire growth. We got the plug done back in the spring and Ryan has finished mold. It looks fantastic. Hope to save about 70lbs each.(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/08/25/4eb1812e78aa2ea3dc587ac858e031a0.jpg)(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/08/25/81ab993e0756b850b70879836087b30a.jpg)
He does such nice work!
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We are currently working on getting our 540 cylinder head issues resolved and getting that engine buttoned up. BMF is actually making us another set of heads and transferring all our good hardware onto them.
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Next stop for this car is the IMTS show in Chicago from 9/8 to 9/13. This should be fun!
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see you there :cheers:
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Rob,
What are your plans for running the rest of the year? I don't see you listed as an entry for the shootout. Will you be making the journey out for the World Finals or maybe I should say the Second attempt at Bonneville Speed Week?
Tom G.
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That tool for the fairings is a nice piece Rob.
I like that you left a generous lip around the edge for attaching the vacuum bag and the box makes for a sturdy platform when laminating.
Buy the mold maker a beer. :cheers: :cheers:
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Rob,
What are your plans for running the rest of the year? I don't see you listed as an entry for the shootout. Will you be making the journey out for the World Finals or maybe I should say the Second attempt at Bonneville Speed Week?
Tom G.
We plan on being at the World Finals.
We would be at the WOS event and the Shootout but we must go to the IMTS show. Couldn't be any worse timing. What I see happening is that the WF gets rained out and we don't run for the record at all this year. I will be physically ill if WF rains out.
Nothing we can do. Had to commit to IMTS long before schedules were released. We are getting. $15000 spot at the IMTS show for nothing so we could not pass up the marketing opportunity to our sponsor even though I'm the president.
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Good job on the appearance money, Rob
FREUD
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That's not appearance money. Just a free spot at the show instead of it costing us 15k.
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Rob,
What are your plans for running the rest of the year?
Tom G.
We plan on being at the World Finals.
Rob,
That is great, I will see you there.
Tom G.
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Hi All,
Here is a interview done on us for our local cable network.
It occurred to me that many of you do not have facebook accounts and may not have seen this yet. If not, here it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0xSQEX0DIE
Winter / spring plans include:
1) Stripping car down to bare frame and having the frame sand blasted, epoxy prime and paint with a copper colored paint. Good-by POR15 and good riddance!
2) Installing the 540 and new Pro-Torque torque converter and tuning it on a chassis dyno.
3) Build and install slightly bigger wheel pants to allow for more tire expansion at speed. They will also be stiffer and lighter.
4) Rebuild parachute box and rear stinger out of aluminum to save weight shifting center of gravity forward even more.
5 General cleanup, inspection and fastener check
Looking forward to July USFRA Test and Tune!
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Terrific interviews -- all three of you!
And that Larry Berg -- he's one terrific interviewer, too.
(We're all so used to the 'drama' loaded up. This guy, who probably can do the same thing interviewing a cupcake baker, sounds like a real, interested and interesting person.)
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Great interview Rob.
I cant wait till August.
Dave
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Great interview. THANKS for sharing
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Rob,
Good to see you and your team getting some well deserved press!
Where the hell is Butler, PA??
Nice job.
Rex
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Well done interview Rob.
See you on the salt. :cheers:
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Great interview Rob.
Larry is a cool guy and did a way better job than others I've seen.
Excellent.
Go Butler. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Rob,
Where the hell is Butler, PA??
Rex
Near to Freeport and Kittanning :cheers:
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And over by the American Austin and Bantam factory. Wayno
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NW of Pittsburg
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Rob,
Good to see you and your team getting some well deserved press!
Where the hell is Butler, PA??
Nice job.
Rex
Rex, You've been here before. LOL. I guessing you were asking for others.
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Hi All,
Here is a interview done on us for our local cable network.
It occurred to me that many of you do not have facebook accounts and may not have seen this yet. If not, here it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0xSQEX0DIE
.
.
.
Rob, Brandon, John,
First of all, that's a great video. Really interesting for those of us far away to be able to put a voice and personality to the names. And the car! Maybe it's the camera angle, but it looks so much lower and sleeker than in the still photos. If ever there was an example of "if it looks right it is right" surely this is it.
But I do have a question: why did Larry Berg (guided by you?) keep mentioning George Poteet's 439 record when some/many/most (take your pick) people would consider Don Vesco's 458 to be the wheel-driven record to aim for? I appreciate turbine is different to internal combustion, but it's still wheel-driven.
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I agree Tricky. I had very little control over the questions he asked. I gave him a quick education a couple of days before about the current state of the records and then he did some of his own research. It was a lot to dump on a layman all at once. He knew absolutely nothing about Bonneville a few days prior to the interview. We did not have a clue about what questions he would be asking until he asked them. We did our best to keep it entertaining for the lay person watching and the car enthusiast alike.
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why did Larry Berg (guided by you?) keep mentioning George Poteet's 439 record when some/many/most (take your pick) people would consider Don Vesco's 458 to be the wheel-driven record to aim for?
The FIA of course do not make it any easier for the non enthusiast to follow when they demand that an automobile can only break a record in the class determined by the type of engine, use of forced induction (or not) and by total cubic capacity of the motors (for conventional 4 stroke or diesel).
With a big block motor of over 8 litres and turbocharging the 'Carbinite Liner' will/should/could break the record speeds set by the Burklands - mile at 415.896mph and by Al Teague - kilo at 425.050mph in the category, group, class, designates as A-I-11.
With the smaller capacity engine the team could have challenged the Poteet speeds of 439.024 & 439.562 (A-I-10). [So the questioning on the video may have been legitimate].
To be the 'fastest automobile' any contender has of course to aim for the Late Don Vesco speeds of 458.444 & 458.196 mph, but only the Vesco team seem to be running a vehicle in that classification and should/could break Don's records in 2015 (salt permitting).
And aren't we all glad that the 1% improvement rule has been allowed to slip away from the FIA rules. If the governiong body had not, then a record in A-I-11 at 460mph might not have been deemed fast enough.
What the FIA should be doing is awarding an 'absolute' title to the automobile mile and/or kilo speed, what most here on landracing.com know as the "wheeldriven record speed". :roll:
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Rob,
You are right that I was really asking for people that may not quite know where Butler, PA is. I have had the privilege of visiting the Carbonite shop several times and can say that each visit was a great experience and the people are just about the best. Good luck on your winter projects and let's all hope for good salt in 2015 I want to see a 450+mph shoot out at Bonneville!
Rex
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Excellent interview!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:
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:cheers: :cheers:
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(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/24/22d08eee72a0f8830980a7817ae7ecc9.jpg)(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/24/8fea4b98c701377050e51c740448d21e.jpg)
Did a little aero testing today. It was very cold (15degrees F) to hang our hand out the window of a 49 mph car but I believe that we got some good data. With the wheel fairing extension (grafted on last June) it looks like the center of pressure is approx 23.7" behind the center of gravity (center of mass). This number will increase a bit with the new lighter, stiffer wheel fairings and aluminum parachute box / pusher bar.
I did some experiments with the holes halfway between the marks and it is still very stable. I feel good about this part of the design work.
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That sounds like a South African experiment. :-D
Good one Rob. I hope it all works for you man.
God Bless.
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Rob
Was your CP test with the nose or the side of the model into the wind ?
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Both.
A 90 degree angle of attack is not a true representation of cp because the far wheel pant (vertical stabilizer) is in the shadow of the leading wheel pant. The cp mark that you see on the pictures was established at 90 degrees. If I tried to straighten the model manually, I would push to about the 30 degree mark and then it would snap straight indicating that the dynamic cp (which we care most about) is located even further back than indicated on the picture.
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We are looking to make our loading and unloading off the trailer a bit more automated.
We are looking to make the crane pivot motorized with two micro switches that stops crane in the same place every time. Anybody know where I can find a 12vdc geared motor that would be suitable for such a task? I'm guessing generate about 500-700 ft/lbs to swing the crane. It does have bearings and grease fittings but it does take some oooomf to get it swung around.
I'm thinking it should take about 30 second to make the 180 degree Swing.
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How about welding on a steering arm and using a linear actuator to swing the crane around? Many 12v actuators have limit switches built-in. I used to have a C-band satellite dish that used one to steer the dish in hour angle.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Rob:
Sounds very similar to a wheelchair ramp or lift set-up.
The top manufacturer of these items is Braun; located SOMEWHERE IN WISCONSIN, I think.
Try an inquiry to Braun.com, and ask one of their engineers to share their supplier list with you.
Regards,
Jim
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How about welding on a steering arm and using a linear actuator to swing the crane around? Many 12v actuators have limit switches built-in. I used to have a C-band satellite dish that used one to steer the dish in hour angle.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
It's hard to get a full 180 degree swing with an arm and actuator. We actually only need about 160 degrees but tat might still be too much.
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How about welding on a steering arm and using a linear actuator to swing the crane around? Many 12v actuators have limit switches built-in. I used to have a C-band satellite dish that used one to steer the dish in hour angle.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
It's hard to get a full 180 degree swing with an arm and actuator. We actually only need about 160 degrees but tat might still be too much.
You could drive a geared rack with the linear actuator, with a pinion gear at the base of the crane?
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Powered trailer tongue jack with appropriate mounting and linkage as/if required, e.g. backhoe bucket linkage or similar.
Gear motor with (SS) chain and sprockets.
What is existing configuration?
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How about welding on a steering arm and using a linear actuator to swing the crane around? Many 12v actuators have limit switches built-in. I used to have a C-band satellite dish that used one to steer the dish in hour angle.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
It's hard to get a full 180 degree swing with an arm and actuator. We actually only need about 160 degrees but tat might still be too much.
You could drive a geared rack with the linear actuator, with a pinion gear at the base of the crane?
That is a neat idea but most linear actuators do not do well with a type of side load that would be generated from a rack and pinion (gears want to separate). It's not impossible but it would start to get pretty complicated.
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A backhoe linkage does give us more rotation.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/02/13/d71bb5ef11e010310eeb1323679bb4b4.jpg)(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/02/13/9900e47b68ee712d53f90a2cee3a5eba.jpg)(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/02/13/7a0111fbdd1d28239519613f80e46e02.jpg)
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I like the bottle opener. :cheers:
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How about a ss cable with a 12v winch mechanism. Look at how it is used on a snowblower chute.
Ron
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Rob,
Go with the linear actuator and use a timing belt instead of a chain. Won't rust and plenty strong. The other thought is a high torque engine starter with a sprocket on the shaft and a larger sprocket around your tower. Probably a smaller package than the linear actuator setup.
Rex
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Rob,
Go with the linear actuator and use a timing belt instead of a chain. Won't rust and plenty strong. The other thought is a high torque engine starter with a sprocket on the shaft and a larger sprocket around your tower. Probably a smaller package than the linear actuator setup.
Rex
I'm thinking on using the trailer tongue jack for a power source and welding starter pinion gear on the lead screw, welding a ring gear from a Chevy v8 flex plate. Of course the whole trailer jack could be shortened up a good bit. Slider that makes contact with ground would be eliminated, and support bearings would need to be added to both sides of pinion. We could cut a window into the outer tube to let the ring gear come through. To interface with the pinion.
Let me do the math but my gut feeling tells me speed and torque would be about right. If speed is acceptable, I'll draw it up inSolidworks to design all the support brackets.
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I like the bottle opener. :cheers:
That's the most important part of the trailer. LOL
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The trailer jack provides us with a low cost, high torque, slow speed 12vdc motor. I spent loads of time looking for something like this and I already had one on the front of my trailer. LOL
This is the real value of this forum. Nobody gave me exact answer I was looking for but the bottom line is I am much closer to a solution less than 24 hours since I posted about this.
It certainly helps to have a bunch of smart friends that I can bounce ideas off of.
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I like the bottle opener. :cheers:
Btw, that stainless bottle opener has our 5 standard grades of coating on it. You can see this if you zoom in. When people ask "What is Carbinite?" We always have a handy sample to show them.
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Didn’t quite follow the Chevy ring gear approach but might consider--
Motor mounted pinion down on the upper, rotating column.
Drives into a twin flange bearing mounted shaft with shaft projecting down to the fixed column.
Shaft has Rex’s timing belt small pinion engaging belt around larger pulley fixed around the lower column.
Could use chain if belt is too spongy, or gears, but lube and corrosion problems.
Or, turn it all over, but may interfere with boom brace.
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Mr. Belt-and-suspenders sez: How about putting some kind of brake in the system to either/or slow/stop when the swing gets out of control for some unexpected reason? Don't rely on the reverse torque/drag of the thing -- be positive. That ain't a cheap car that's swinging towards the wall's upright beam.
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If we could use a worm gear it would be a natural brake.
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Time for bi-annual reconstruction.(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160317/1c47e32fe7e9d91fd0a3a73ede9f972a.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160317/3b0dd93df3462ae7a34ee78830303a95.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160317/4c86810557addcdd0c7d93eadcea2785.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160317/a87964aa6623a791e95ac8a161258351.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160317/4f1e4c8e3bbd03467439d1b675696613.jpg)
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Hopefully going to the sandblaster on Friday.
Can't find any cracks in any of the welds so far.
Plenty of souvenirs from Bonnieville and area 52. Gosh darn it, every surface we run on is corrosive. We need a new hobby.
Big debate amongst the team members on what color to paint the chassis. Definitely not going to be bright orange.
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"Hospital ambulance white" is a good color. It is easy to spot cracks.
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Yes! All dark colors are out. Safety first!
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Johnny Benson Sr. used to paint his late model racecar frames silver...made crack spotting easy AND gave competitors fits because it looked like aluminum :cheers:
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Forgive me, Rob -- maybe it's the cold that I'm just finally finishing, but when I saw the photos just now -- and looked at the first one -- I sat there trying to figure out just what the heck configuration you were running. There were parts everywhere, going all the wrong ways.
Then I put on my glasses. :roll:
Thanks for the shots of the car un-done. It's good to see what you've done in there.
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Hopefully going to the sandblaster on Friday.
Can't find any cracks in any of the welds so far.
Plenty of souvenirs from Bonnieville and area 52. Gosh darn it, every surface we run on is corrosive. We need a new hobby.
Big debate amongst the team members on what color to paint the chassis. Definitely not going to be bright orange.
Hey whats wrong with bright orange??
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This is what I painted mine.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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This is what I painted mine.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Me too
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/74992334/IMG_1168.JPG)
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160318/d819df80e5870a2e6de28ec37214af9a.jpg)
Who do we have to talk to about getting a fresh sticker?
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160320/fc9ed1162392a2e48008f8f1870d82c6.jpg)
We settled on Caterpillar yellow. Just like the label of the Fireball whiskey. Fireball whiskey itself is close to the color of the car. Maybe they would want to sponsor? I'll have to do up a rendering with their label on the car.
Maybe we could get some of our money back or at least a few years supply.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160320/9c9354903c838e3930702b77f84d2c2a.jpg)
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Contact Tech in rulebook, they can make you a replacement sticker... although yours looks pretty good and easy to mask off.
Your new one may not look as good... :cheers:
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My body work will also be Yellow because I won more races on my Suzuki RM125 than I did in karts or F2 combined.
It's my lucky colour, my race suit is Yellow and three of my bigger sponsors have yellow as their background colour.
No brainer.
I think your chassis would look great in Yellow. :cheers: :cheers:
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I also won a few races on my 1981 RM 125. First year for water cooling and full floater suspension. 204 lbs, payed $1440. I can't remember what I had for breakfast but I can remember this stuff. Go figure.
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Feels like yesterday doesn't it?. Have you seen what these bikes sell for now?. You'd be shocked.
Go with the Yellow Rob. It's a winning color. :-D 8-) :wink:
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160320/fc9ed1162392a2e48008f8f1870d82c6.jpg)
Rob,
I love your Solid Works drawing of your car as it shows so much of the great engineering that you and your crew have put into it. Everyone should note the linkage over the rear axle that is used to set the angle of the flaps for down force vs ground speed and also the three "beams" that are used to carry the aero down force loads from the wings to the chassis and the effort that you have gone to to package the proverbial 10 lbs of $hit in the 5 lb bag. Thank you for sharing with us.
Rex
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Thanks Rex! Coming from you, it means a lot.
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Got the frame back from sandblaster / painter! If you live in PA and you need car frame or trailer blasted or painted, Jerry at Custom Application Specialist is your guy. He is a pleasure to deal with and does really nice work. Reassembly has already well underway.(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160327/64d7fc8389cd9ea02560765be1db0176.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160327/2f77190eaa3c8e065d6aabcf06dbcf83.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160327/9d9c8382867122f966f12af8f5a4beb0.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160327/f8add6d758a9fbab4755b54f36c413e6.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160327/84bc9cfcfa8aa741330d176164addf42.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160327/57ae48397735f9542cfd4d130be4a6b5.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160327/e5bca842e1940b2704b61506887b9b25.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160327/81d4bf8a59699c80f6afe262c65276f6.jpg)
We did settle on Fireball Mustard. It's actually a Caterpillar color but don't tell Tom Dollmeyer or Bruce Watson.
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As long as you went with yellow did you send the wiring with it for paint or are you painting it separately :evil:
(That's for my buddy Jimmy in AU...) :cheers:
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:cheers:
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As long as you went with yellow did you send the wiring with it for paint or are you painting it separately :evil:
(That's for my buddy Jimmy in AU...) :cheers:
Well paint that separately! LOL!
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Rob, that looks awesome.
Lovely job and I love the colour. :cheers:
Happy Easter to you and the family.
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As long as you went with yellow did you send the wiring with it for paint or are you painting it separately :evil:
(That's for my buddy Jimmy in AU...) :cheers:
Bob,
Don't you remember? Wire color DOES NOT MATTER!!
Well, as long as you don't let the smoke out . . . . . . . . :roll:
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Mark, it doesn't matter what color the wire is as long as that color/coating is designed to go uniformly black and charred as soon as any current is passed through it, making it properly unidentifiable. :dhorse:
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160329/fd7b8927612c1e05a85d454738bb570d.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160329/b644dd28c26260393db0e476bcc23c30.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160329/5e329b09e03a084f385d887c8d5f0b50.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160329/612724fc9b5262b02c889f0599542994.jpg)
Some pics of today's progress. We got the front suspension, Spindles, and slave cylinders installed.
We also got the wheels and kick panels back from Scotty Chop (our painter).
I feel so blessed to have such devoted and talented team members.
We also got the car loaded on the trailer as we will be doing another Educational event for the AWS tomorrow at the Carnegie Science Center.
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I remember when Target 550 frame was painted and reassembly started.
It was a powerful rush. All of a sudden it wasn't bare any longer.
Time flew and before long........it was done. What a feeling.
Thanks for sharing your exuberance with all of us.
FREUD
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That color looks right at home...I`m sure it`s in this thread somewhere, But what are those front tires made of ??? JB
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That color looks right at home...I`m sure it`s in this thread somewhere, But what are those front tires made of ??? JB
Billet aluminium. The contact surface right now is gorilla tape. Not high speed for sure but saves on dings when rolling it on the concrete in the shop and convention centers.
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We've been hard at it almost every night on getting her reassembled. We are just a few hours away from being ready to fire it up and starting to test new systems installed on car. This rebuild was both necessary and exhausting. We are all very tired.
Rob Freyvogel
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Will there be cameras running to let us enjoy the firing up? :-D
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Of course!
Rob Freyvogel
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Here is the video from last Monday's dyno session.
Here we are just showing last run at 10psi of boost. No hp number from dyno as they could not get a good crank signal but we really didn't care. We are just looking at tune and trying to beat up the transmission a bit to test if we got our planetary lubrication problem solved.
Dyno maxed out at 250 but we actually went about 272mph with unexpected tire growth and better than expected converter lockup at 3.5%.
By the time we are done I think we can get converter lockup under 2%.
https://youtu.be/0bYl--_Msp0
Rob Freyvogel
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LIKE. :cheers:
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:cheers: :cheers:
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Wow......Really looking forward to seeing and hearing this in August... :-D :-D :-D
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may be my old eyes :-o ---but I think you can actually see the profile of the tire change and its growth..
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The profile changes pretty dramatically too. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Ron
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Wow......Really looking forward to seeing and hearing this in August... :-D :-D :-D
This like any of the turbo cars are not much to listen to.
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Not even at the 5 mile trap, Rob?...... :-D :-D :-D :-D
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Speed Demon sounded fine to me but hey I'm all but deaf!!!! :-D
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must be those "Good Vibrations" :-D
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Go back and watch the video you posted a few posts above here Rob. Notice that you are wearing hearing protection while running on the dyno. Now look at the face you are making at the top of second gear :-D . Either you are pushing really hard on the accelerator pedal, your bean breakfast burrito is kicking in or the car is just slightly louder than you realize :lol:
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I wuz gonna say something about that smile/grimace, too, BB, but I thought it was just Rob giggling as he pushed the loud pedal harder. :-D :-D
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Or waiting for the big BANG!
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Yeah my hearing protection was definitely not working good enough.
Rob Freyvogel
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Got the new front rollers in Podunk today! They of course look awesome. They are flatter profile and should be easier on both the salt and playa surfaces.
Going to mount them tonight and check for any problems.(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160701/4a3eb4c455a7d27ed9f06bb56d92338b.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160701/bce1ce20ebbfd503e835d5cccfa94cd1.jpg)
Rob Freyvogel
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Podunk does awesome work. The wheels look great. Well done guys. :cheers:
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here is to roll'em fast :cheers:
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190518/f62818c789c04fa3dcca99eef44e0089.jpg)
New turbos are here and mounted on engine dyno cart.
A very big THANK YOU to Tim Colton of Garrett and Bill “Chopper” of Limit Engineering.
I’ve never owned new turbos in my life. I’ve always pieced together junk.
These GTX5533 genII will bring our game to a new level!
A lot of my competitors run the other brand which are also very good but I really want a turbo that has a compressor map.
Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS
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Compressor housings are the same external dimensions but turbine housings are huge.
I am concerned about fitting the turbine housings in the chassis.
Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS
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The three areas we are working on for 2019-
1) fixing turbo back pressure issue (70+ psi at 31 psi of boost)
2)Drysumping rear end with new billet oil manifolded rear cover along with custom made 1.416 ratio QC gears made from maraging steel.
3) Better oil control
A) oil tank modification
B) crank scraper
C) Oberg between pump and tank
D) block off valley and pull oil from it instead of letting it drip onto spinning crank and rods.
Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS
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Looking good Rob. Best of luck. :cheers: :cheers:
Tom G.
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Rob, plans sound good! Those should dry your hair just fine! :-D :cheers: :cheers:
See ya in August!
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190519/2e7ee722da97960b682666924ea689bf.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190519/3404bbd4401fc8f1d4d377b6a9797acc.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190519/11107f9cbcc190ee4496a4ebe1e8567e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190519/8d4de308c1b2fe17c799ef7d12601d3a.jpg)
We also came to the conclusion that the salt is not the place for power plant development.
Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190519/6a5f94aaefaa29d11c7289414f7f001a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190519/3a34979e3aa47fd01891e6bce7a0a7ac.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190519/babf5571c2e427751210159ccf737fe4.jpg)
Oil tank mods.
Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS
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A true "Swirl Pot" nice!
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I would’ve liked to have flattened out the inlet a little bit more to fan spray against the side of the swirl pot but time is running short.
Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS
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We also baffled the vent much better. At least we think we did. Lol
So many times we thought we were improving things but we were doing just the opposite.
Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS
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Rob, that motor looks ready to make one heck of a big noise. WoW!
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As long as that noise is not the sound of rod exiting block, that will be ok!
Thanks!
Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS
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Rob,
If you are looking to filter the scavenged oil before it returns to your oil tank, I would not use an Oberg filter. This is exactly the best place to put a good filter but the Oberg screen filter is not the one to use. I would highly recommend the Pall 7500 spin on filter assembly with a Pall 6 micron filter. You can actually get most of the parts on E Bay and when you are done you will have a return filtration system that is multiple times more efficient than the Oberg and really protects your engine. Pall is the world leader in filtration and their filtration media is the most efficient, far better than the Oberg "chicken wire" elements. Talk to Buddy Walker, the flat head Cad man, about his system, he uses the Pall 7500 spin on and is very happy with it. Filtration systems are like crash helmets, if you have a $5 head then buy a cheap helmet, same for your motor. You have put literally thousands of $ into it why protect it with a filtration system that is based upon 1940 technology!
Rex
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Thanks for the info on that Rex!
The screen is to just catch large debris and sort of help separate the air and oil. I heard from a few sources that this helps.
Remember, I’m pumping a 4:1 air oil mix.
Our tank does not come apart for cleaning if (when) we have a blow up so hopefully this will keep the chunks out of the tank.
Also, I can not fit anything bigger than the oberg screen type filter. I’m not even sure if it is going to fit.
We are going to beat the ever lover ship out of this thing on the dyno and it will fit there.
Of course I’m still running Wix 51061R to filter engine oil.
The filter will help prevent damage to the pressure section of the pump as if that would actually matter when it blows up. Might save me 1% of total rebuild cost. lol
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Rob,
If you only use the Pall filter for the dyno it would be worth the effort and cost over the Oberg. The Pall filter has a "beta" rating at 6 microns of 200 which means that it will catch 199 out of 200 6 micron particles that that go through it, that is 99.995% efficient. This means that it will actually clean your engine and oil tank during dyno operation. This filter was used by Nissan Racing as the dyno filter on all of their racing engines specifically to clean the engines during dyno testing. The Operg will catch rocks, birds and small children the Pall will literally clean your engine.
Rex
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Wix says:
"We offer two very different and distinct racing filter lines. For maximum flow and horsepower the lowest restriction pure racing media filters are recommended – oil (T-10) and air (T-66). However, when endurance and better engine protection are needed, WIX’s high efficiency endurance media filters are the correct choice – oil (T-71) and air (T-88). "
http://wixfilters.com/Speciality/6-17-13%20wix%20racing%20catalog2.pdf
I don't know what the micron rating is of their AP and EE filter types but they recommend their AP filter for maximum flow while the EE filter element is intended for endurance applications. I assume that "endurance" filters have a finer micron filter rating.
Putting a filter between the dry-sump pan is a good idea but you need only a very low- restriction screen to keep big pieces out of the dry sump pump. Between its outlet and the oil tankshouldn'tn't need a very fine filter; the engine oil pump outlet needs a good filter but one that is way too fine may have higher pressure drop, especially as it becomes loaded with debris.
If I remember right, Ford made that mistake on one of their Indy cars back in the '60s or '70s- they used a small oil filter with a very fine micron rating and during the race it packed up and cut off the engine oil supply.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Pall (Paul) oil filters also have very low pressure drop so normally nothing bypasses . The codes are available on line . When you understand the numbers you can get screw on filters and heads fairly cheap on ebay .
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A comment on the Wix filters: Their filter media is organic fiber, i.e. paper held together with added resin. Paper fibers have a set diameter and density so how do you get a finer paper element? you compress it so that the channels between the fibers get smaller and then you glue them in place with the addition of resin. All of this just makes the pressure drop across the filter media increase and reduce its contamination holding ability. This, like screen filters, is 1940s filter technology. As John said, the Pall filter for a given micron rating will have substantially lower pressure drop than a paper filter of the same rating. I have personally applied Pall filtration in a large number of industrial application with flow rates exceeding 500 gpm and pressures exceeding 7500 psi and the Pall filtration always performed as we required which is why I am so positive on the Pall product. Automotive filters are mostly paper media and that is because it is cheap and does an acceptable job for the every day drive to the store car engine. I don't consider an engine that is going to power a car to over 500 mph as being in this same classification. If you are going to invest 20-30 K dollars in a race engine then why save money on the filter? Oil is the life blood of a race engine, clean oil gives the engine maximum life.
Rex
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Rex & John;
I did not know that Pall made automotive oil filters! Good grief, I've used them in industrial application- the type made of wound textile fibers- but that's all. Does Pall make a spin-on oil filter for a SBC?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Pall makes industrial oil filters but they work fine for engine oil . Pall filters are crisscrossed layers of fine glass strands that are heated till the strands fuse together to maintain the gaps . Thanks Rex for telling us about them .
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I have been studying up and these Pall filters are impressive.
The 7500 is so big though. That is not going to fit in our car.
Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS
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Rob 7400's are about the right size .
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Brandon,
I hope you are still following this thread. Any info on Rob? It has been several weeks now and I have not seen anything on his condition.
Rex
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This is the latest from Rob's wife Sue on Facebook:
"A wise woman sent me her blog post yesterday titled ?We Cannot Direct the Wind." She discusses that, unfortunately, situations happen and life is full of trouble. She asks "Where should we set our sails in a crisis?" God is where I have chosen to set my sail through this terrible event. I cannot control the situation, as much as I would like to. If it were up to me, Rob would be awake right now, endlessly throwing the ball for our Labrador puppy! But God is in control. In His time, I feel confident that Rob will be healed.
This was one of Rob?s favorite pictures from 2016 SpeedWeek. (shout out to Liz Leggett Photography!). I was not able to make the 2017 event. Strangely enough, none of the crew wanted to fill my shoes and kiss him before his runs?
Thursday morning update:
Yesterday was a good day! Rob was off the ventilator breathing on his own for about 10 hours! His temperature was a little high and he is being checked for infection. His tube feed rate was increased since he is tolerating that with no trouble. He is physically improving, just waiting for his brain to heal.
Today, he?s been off the ventilator for about 2.5 hours so far. We hope to push him past the 10-hour mark, but do not want to tire him. No timeframe set for our return to PA.
All those close to Rob, both in SLC and PA, are so very grateful for the outpouring of support and love you have shown. The medical care he has received is superb. The way we are being cared for by so many people around the globe is so heartwarming. Thank you again!
Sue and Family"
There is a Go Fund Me page set up at: https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-the-freyvogels
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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From Rob's Wife Sue on the Carbinite LSR Facebook.
Carbinite LSR
23 hrs ?
I had the opportunity to climb the mountain behind the hospital this week. The weather was perfect, and the trail was very pretty. This picture is from the peak, looking down into the city. The actual view was much more beautiful than this photo portrays. While hiking, I started to ponder the old bumper sticker ?God is my Co-Pilot.? No idea why my mind went down that path? My thought was always ?if God is your co-pilot, you had better change seats!?
Many people have commented about how well I am handling this whole circumstance. There is a long line of strong-willed practical women on both sides of my family, and I do follow in their footsteps. But if I am honest, this situation really is beyond my strength. Falling apart inside is an almost daily occurrence. I am tired and sometimes angry and want to go home! But I am learning each day to rely on God?s provision, to wait on His timing, and to seek His will and purpose in all of this. He is my Pilot, has a plan, and speaks to me in many ways. One way He speaks is through the blessing of having such a wide group of supporters who have all gone above-and-beyond to take care of us. Thank you again, each and every one of you, for all you have done.
Rob has been more awake the last few days. What I mean by awake is just that, less sleepy and more alert. I don?t mean that he is communicating or really aware. Yet. He has been responding to sounds outside his room, following commands a little more consistently, and holding my hand more frequently.
The doctors, after reviewing the latest CT scan, decided that he would benefit from a permanent drain. Off to the operating room today, once again. He just got back to the lCU an hour ago and is still very sleepy. All went well, no complications. He has another really bad haircut... Praying and hoping that this will take us one step closer to Pennsylvania!
Regards,
Tom G.
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Thanks to Sue and Tom for the update
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From Andy on the Carbinite LSR Facebook.
Carbinite LSR
November 13 at 5:33 PM ?
The USFRA held their awards banquet on Saturday where Sue and a few of the team attended. Definitely bittersweet to record the fastest time of the meet on the run in which he crashed. Average time of 392 mph over the 4th mile and still accelerating quickly heading into the final mile.
Rob had surgery last week to place a permanent drain in his brain, and after a couple days back in the ICU to keep a close watch on him, he is back in a regular room. He continues to progress slowly as doctors are expecting, with a little more consistent response in blinking and moving his hands and feet, but nothing really new to share. We appreciate the love and care given by the racing community, and all the friends and family that have pitched in with notes, gifts and help in a variety of ways. Thank you! We will let you know when we have new info to share. Andy
Thanks Andy,
Tom G.
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In case anyone is still following this thread, I'll post it here first.
Firstly, best of wishes to Rob and his recovery. I've heard there is some good progress in the last few months!
Secondly, in this expanse of uncertain downtime, we've been tinkering on our 'liner's aero package. It was always an intention to make the wings adjust angle at speed- much like the Carbiliner. I've got a system built in my mind (and on paper) to get the job done, but I was curious to see if anyone could shed some light on how Rob and the team manipulated their rear wing at speed. Of course if this info is proprietary skunk-works development, I'll kindly sit back down.
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http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?topic=8665.675
electric linear jack
bob
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I did talk to Rob about their thinking for a control idea for their flap control. They set the flap(s) initially to provide 3000 lbs of down force at 180-200 mph . They have calculated what the flap angle has to be at increased speeds to maintain the 3000 lb of down force and the flap angle is then reduced based upon their speed. I think that it is somewhat a hybrid system that uses driver input and a control that sets the flaps. As I remember the flaps are actuated by an electrically driven screw jack. My guess is that if you contacted Rob's partner Brandon Barnard he could be of great help. Great guy just like Rob.
Rex