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Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Briz on September 22, 2010, 03:41:23 PM



Title: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on September 22, 2010, 03:41:23 PM
Following on from the earlier thread as to what class I could run in:
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,8632.0.html
This will deal with the buildup of the bike. Not a lot of progress yet, still figuring things out.
I pulled a few covers off the engine to get some idea of whats what:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Pointscoverscamcoveroff.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Rcamcoveroff.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Timingcoveroff.jpg)
All looks pretty robust; camchains are chunkier than you'll find in most jap engines. Seems to be 6-hole adjustment for cam timing. Oilpump looks like it could be a modified Norton one.

Spline on sprocket shaft is very beefy 1.5" major diameter. Way bigger than an HD. Wish I knew if there was anything which fits that spline!
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Sprocketshaft.jpg)

Looks like torquing the heads down is going to be fun!-
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Cylinderstuds.jpg)

Heres a shot of the engine/trans interface. You can see that mating the early FXR case will be a simple job.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Gearboxcrankcaseflanges.jpg)

Thinking I'll run EFI for fuelling. looking at Suzuki TL1000 parts; throttle bodies etc, although they're way bigger than the manifold inlet - 36mm. The TL has 52mm TBs. Some work to do there although I'm concerned about messing with those super rare head castings.

As for the bike itself, I'm torn between a simple solid-mount rigid and a swingarm rubbermount setup. If I (or you) cant think of any good reason not to, I'll go with the latter. The FXR platform is a good one.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Nortonist 592 on September 22, 2010, 03:54:20 PM
Nice!   I can see a few bits that are common to Weslakes.  They are beefy but need careful setup.  I love the head torquing idea!!!  Haven't seen that before.  I notice on the wall behind the engine there are a couple of big hammers.  You may be tempted but don't.  Youre going to love the big beastie.  Keep us up to date.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: saltwheels262 on September 22, 2010, 05:35:37 PM
briz,

nice looking engine.

the earliest the trans could be is a '99, off of a twin cam.
(as far as getting parts for it.)

good luck with your build.

franey


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Stan Back on September 22, 2010, 05:59:43 PM
Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!

How about . . .
Re: The world's fastest Weslake.....not yet!

Stan



Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: willieworld on September 22, 2010, 06:24:48 PM
the trans case is an early 80s FXR ------ my guess is 82                                        willie buchta


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on September 22, 2010, 06:35:13 PM
Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!

How about . . .
Re: The world's fastest Weslake.....not yet!
Stan

I Wasn't making any serious claim there Stan! Could turn out 'Not the worlds fastest Weslake by a long way'  :-D

the trans case is an early 80s FXR ------ my guess is 82                                        willie buchta

Its an '85 - the first year of the big bearing. Which was a bit of luck. Did some welding mods on it today to accept a late starter & add beef around the swingarm pivot/rear mounting. An '86 case would have been ideal.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Nortonist 592 on September 22, 2010, 07:02:59 PM
Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!

How about . . .
Re: The world's fastest Weslake.....not yet!

Stan



Hey Stan.  It could be the worlds fastest Weslake.  Remember its a twin and the firing order has to be right.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Stan Back on September 22, 2010, 07:04:29 PM
2-1 won't work?


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Nortonist 592 on September 22, 2010, 07:36:00 PM
2-1 won't work?

Just because I crossed the plug wire on my single doesn't mean you should make fun of me.



Sorry Briz.  We're just passing time eagerly awaiting the next installment.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: saltwheels262 on September 23, 2010, 05:13:19 PM
the trans case is an early 80s FXR ------ my guess is 82                                        willie buchta

didn't know evo trans' had a bolt pattern on
front of case.

what does it bolt to?

franey


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on September 23, 2010, 05:40:56 PM
Up until '86 they had a removable plate on the front with a horizontal part extending forward with 2 holes which bolt up to the rear of the motor. From '87 on they integrated it into the main casting. Its not clear why they made it a seperate piece in the first place, but for a fat tire FXR it does make offsetting a lot easier.
Of those with removable plates, only the '86 bolts up to belt drive primaries without modification.
The '99 up twincam cases could be made to work with the Weslake, but the bolt flange is much larger and I think the assembled drivetrain would be a couple of inches longer.

Here you go: 3 generations of FXR / FLT front mounts:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/3gearboxshells.jpg)


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Dreamweaver on September 23, 2010, 05:53:19 PM
So what/who is the world's fastest Weslake?  :cheers:


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Nortonist 592 on September 23, 2010, 08:06:42 PM
Cammy or pushrod or just plain fastest/


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: k.h. on September 23, 2010, 09:30:56 PM
128 hp on methanol, 120 on gas.  The "other" V-twin.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on September 24, 2010, 05:35:48 PM
Mostly the work at present is measuring stuff. To run an HD belt drive I have to get the engine & trans the exact right distance apart. Heres how I measured crank centre to rear flange:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Checkingcrankcasedimensions.jpg)

Finished modifying the tranny case; widened & reinforced the swingarm pivot too, and enlarged the spindle hole to 11/16"

(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Trannycasedone.jpg)


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Nortonist 592 on September 24, 2010, 07:28:54 PM
My guess is you will be running the beastie on RAF runways so rear suspension might be a good idea.  Are there any plans to bring it to Bonneville in the future?   Would love to see it in person.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: desotoman on September 24, 2010, 10:56:08 PM
Does anyone know if Nourish is still in business? He bought the weslake twin unit. Or if anyone is still in business making weslake products?

Thanks in advance,

Tom G.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on September 24, 2010, 11:26:52 PM
Nourish Racing Engine Company, 13 Manor Lane, Langham, Oakham, Leicestershire, LE15 7JL, England, Tel 01572 722712 Fax 01572 722668


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: desotoman on September 25, 2010, 12:09:19 AM
Wobblywalrus,

Thank you. I cannot believe they are at the same address I got parts from back in 1982.

Thanks again,

Tom G.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: oz on September 25, 2010, 02:56:21 AM
Excellent what a fantastic engine for a project!!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: desperate on September 25, 2010, 06:59:47 AM
Nice motor Briz, and another Brit joining Oz's motley crew.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on September 25, 2010, 07:54:35 AM
My guess is you will be running the beastie on RAF runways so rear suspension might be a good idea.  Are there any plans to bring it to Bonneville in the future?   Would love to see it in person.

Yeah; planning to be there along with Oz, Sumo & Desperate in 2012.
Dave Nourish is still there. Aint spoken to him yet, but did speak to Dave Perry at Antig who does still have some parts - I'll be grabbing some spare valves & springs for sure. Interestingly, they still have the original dyno fixture from Weslakes original development program. That WILL be useful! Trouble is they're a long way from me. I'm wondering if they'll loan or rent it. Cant see them using it much these days!
Also been in touch with Mick Butler who drag raced a blown nitro pushrod one back in the '80s. If anythings going to find a weak spot, its nitro! reckons they used to crack between the exhaust seats - the achilles heel of all 4-valve heads.
Eventually it blew the crankcase apart across the cam bearings- after he'd sold the bike on.

Been hitting ebay bigtime for parts. Got a pair of Honda Blackbird wheels & swingarm (which will get a good deal of alteration) and a set of throttle bodys from a TL1000.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: oz on September 25, 2010, 12:03:16 PM
If the tls bodys are 51mm and the Weslakes original intakes are 36ish you may have to extend the intake tract to regain some of the mid range power, I know all everyone wants top end power but if you dont retain the mid range to some extent you wont get to the top end power.
TTFN Oz


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: peterdallan on October 01, 2010, 07:35:56 AM
Briz,

        Peter here, we met at Leamington Spa a couple of weeks ago. I thought this might interest you, if I go I'll try to take some close up photos for you.

Peter

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/WService=wslive_pub/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=EUR&screen=lotdetailsNoFlash&iSaleItemNo=4764996&iSaleNo=18294&iSaleSectionNo=2


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on October 17, 2010, 12:19:49 PM
Hi Peter, was good to meet up with you & the other guys, but I'm pretty sure it was in Leighton Buzzard!
That Goddon bike looks quite something; love to take that for a blast.

As far as progress goes.. I just had an interesting morning.
A local mate, Dusty, brought round a friend of his, Rob. Robs a retired journalist who has been putting a book together about Weslake stuff for some time.

You're gonna love this Nortonist.....
Robs got a featherbed framed Weslake single which he finished in the early '90s. He bought the engine new from Brian Valentine in '88. His engine is as rare as mine - or more, its a 5-valve! Mated to a norton box. It was featured in 'British Bike' magazine in 1993.

Rob passed on a whole bunch of information about Weslakes which would have been impossible to get otherwise. It seems likely that mine is from the mid-80s.
Surprisingly, it looks like it has a one piece crank with shell bigends. Conrods are basically Cosworth items and bearing sizes are pretty huge.

I may have to rename this thread 'the worlds fastest BVR' as it was made well after Weslake went down the plughole, although Brian Valentine had permission to use the Weslake name.

Meanwhile, I'm still collecting parts. Got the engine & tranny bolted up and now have the belt drive. Next thing is to get a billet of steel broached with the crank spline to make the front pulley adapter.
Too bad it hasn't got those 5 valve heads though.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: peterdallan on October 18, 2010, 07:23:23 AM
Ha ha Leighton Buzzard it was (how much did we drink that night????)

My Triumph is coming along slowly, but parts collection going well now. Will start a build thread very soon. Frame due this week, crankcases, crank, cylinder head all sourced, and cams will be made soon from blanks.

Great to see progress, please keep updating!!

Peter
 


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 18, 2010, 08:27:32 PM

You're gonna love this Nortonist.....
Robs got a featherbed framed Weslake single which he finished in the early '90s. He bought the engine new from Brian Valentine in '88. His engine is as rare as mine - or more, its a 5-valve! Mated to a norton box. It was featured in 'British Bike' magazine in 1993.



Thats a great coincedence.  I built my featherbed/Weslake in the early 90s too!  Mine is a very elderly long rod engine.  I've never seen a 5 valve head.  Only a photo or two.  Indeed, a rare engine!!!  Mine ran 129.815 on gas at El Mirage in Sept. 2007.  Haven't been able to get it any faster so far.

(http://)(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/9665/picture208.jpg)
By weslake (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/weslake) at 2009-11-25


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 18, 2010, 10:54:40 PM
Briz, do you have an old primary sprocket or pulley that is similar to the one you want to make?  If so, please post pictures of the front and back sides.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on October 19, 2010, 07:15:54 AM
Nope; all I have is the shaft sticking out the engine!
The primo pulley has a removable centre held in with 5 bolts, so I dont have to alter that.
I was at a swap-meet at the weekend & found a 5-speed triumph gearbox sprocket which had the same spline OD. I thought I was home-free. But the spline width was smaller. Dave Perry at Antig says he still has the broaching tool for the spline, so I'll be sending him the blank.
Or I reckon I could do it myself on a rotary table if I made it so it locates on the minor diameter. Jury's still out.

I'm going round to see Robs 5-valve soon. I'll take some pics. Who knows, maybe I can talk him into bringing it to the salt!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 19, 2010, 09:48:59 PM

I'm going round to see Robs 5-valve soon. I'll take some pics. Who knows, maybe I can talk him into bringing it to the salt!

Get it on the salt and I WILL definitely be there!!!

P.S.  I'm gonna be there anyway so tell him to bring it over.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 19, 2010, 11:13:25 PM
Briz, decades ago I did almost exactly what you are doing with that primary sprocket or pulley.  This is what I learned.  The hard way.

It is very important to locate an original sprocket, washer, nut, and nut torque specs.  The sprocket can be worn out.  This is not a problem.  Carefully note how the engine side of the sprocket seats on the shaft.  Look at the washer type and how everything seats on the outside of the sprocket when the nut is tightened down.

This is critical.  The friction between the engine side of the sprocket and the seat, when the nut is fully tightened, conveys a significant portion of the rotating torque from the crank to the sprocket.  In some cases, all of the torque.  This takes a big torque load off of the splines.

This experience taught me to pay a lot of attention to all aspects of the sprocket.  Assuming the sprocket center section is OK, it may be cost effective to remove the teeth and to weld on a pulley.

This might not apply exactly to your situation.  It is simply something I learned years ago on a Matchless.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on October 20, 2010, 06:35:30 AM
Wouldn't really apply here WW. The spline is one that Weslake invented for themselves I think. No chance at all of finding an original sprocket, even if they made any in the first place.
Mick Butler who drag-raced one told me that he had a special one made.
The whole thing is so beefy that I doubt there'd be any problem anyway. Theres certainly a lot more meat there than on a HD big twin.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Rex Schimmer on October 22, 2010, 12:04:31 PM
 Looking at the pic of the output shaft it looks like the spline is a square tooth spline, i.e. the shaft was made by using a horizontal cutter with the shaft mounted in an index head and each spline was individually machined and it appears that the cutter was square not involute so you could possibly make a sprocket with a milling machine and an index table. You would have to design the sprocket to pilot on the ID of the shaft not the OD but if the splines are square making a sprocket should be pretty straight forward.

Rex


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on November 10, 2010, 02:57:09 PM
Thats pretty much what I've done Rex.
Made a trip down to Gloucester last Friday to see Dave Perry at Antig. One of only a few with knowledge about these engines. Helpful bloke; actually had an engine sprocket to fit, so I grabbed it.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/antigsprocket.jpg)

However.... I'm not going to use it now!
Reason being that its nothing like what I need - the pulley needs a huge amount of spacing away from the engine to line up, so I spent Monday machining these bits:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/pulleyadapterparts.jpg)
The main adapter is EN16T. I milled the splines in the rotary table. It locates on the minor diameter of the crank spline.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/pulleyoncrank.jpg)
Next thing is to make a support plate that'll bolt up to the engine & box and carry bearings directly behind both pulleys.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Rex Schimmer on November 15, 2010, 11:47:55 PM
Briz,
You might want to consider an extra bearing to hold up the out side of the pulley, you have plenty of over hang.

Rex


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: JimL on November 16, 2010, 12:19:42 AM
This is REALLY interesting because I still daydream of making a twin engine coupling.  One fellow told me to use "well over" 180 degree belt wrap to take a lot of the side load out of the shaft and bearings.  Ever heard of that?  I suppose it puts some of the thrust or pull loads into the bearing of an idler (he said some systems have idlers at both ends, to protect shafts and bearings).  I've not run across any reasonable cost sealed bearings that can tolerate 10-12000 RPM, though I guess if the bearing idler was big enough, it would help.  I've noticed on production cars that the bigger the belt loads (multi-rib accessory drive), the bigger the idler or tensioner pulley diameters....probably for the same reasons.  On the stuff with very high load alternators, they now have one-way clutches in the pulley, to prevent overrun loads on the accessory drive (due to high inertia in the heavier armatures during frequent upshifts with rapid engine RPM reduction).

I miss points, condensors, generators, and hand chokes. :-(
JimL


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: willybuilt on November 16, 2010, 05:36:31 AM
Hello Briz,

I have a DOHC Weslake the same as yours, I have engine # 1 of 6 built ( eng # J-101) with the only gearbox that was made. The bike has never been started. The man behind building the DOHC Weslakes was Ron Jones. The engine were built by Brian Valentine of BVR, son of Ron Valentine who designed the Weslake speedway engine.
What engine number is yours, I have only heard of 2 or 3 other engines.
Regards
Alan


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on November 16, 2010, 06:55:19 AM
Hi Alan. I've been trying to get in touch with you! You're in OZ, right?
You have the ex- Peter Toogood project? The one at the bottom in this page:
http://toogood.org/pages/motorcycles.htm
How is the project progressing? Looked an intersting build.
Mine is number 5 (J105)
Number 4 was built into a featherbed frame with a HD 4-speed in the late '80s by Alan White. Featured in a magazine. Not been able to get in touch with him yet.
I now have a heap of info about the origins and the history, but not much technical data other than the basics.
Did you get any such data with yours? I understand there was a good deal of paperwork that went along with the no. 1 project.

Rex; you're right, theres a lot of overhang which will be addressed. Because of the engines RPM potential (Dave Perry reckons they'll live at 10K) -and this relates to what JimL mentions- bearing speed is a concern, I'm going to have to use a 60mm ID bearing behind the front pulley, but most have a limit of about 7500rpm, Its only narrow 78mm OD ones which will go to 11000rpm. So I'll likely use a pair of these (at $40 each :roll:)
I guess the smaller the difference between the inner & outer bearing track dia, the more rpms they'll handle.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: thefrenchowl on November 16, 2010, 08:44:51 AM
Hi Briz,

Only asking, don't shoot me straighaway!!!

Would it not be better if your pulley bearing is as far as possible from the crank drive bearing, inside the nose of the pulley, similar to what Sumo's doing on his twin Panther?

I suppose you're using a rather modern H-D tranny, hence the overhang where the alternator would be located?

Could you not reduce the drive overhang by shortening the clutch gear on the tranny? A 60mm ID bearing will surely eat a lot of power?

Patrick


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Rex Schimmer on November 16, 2010, 10:49:33 AM
Briz,
You don't need a very large bearing for the outside support, certainly nothing in the 60 mm size. You might consider remaking your retaining nut/sleeve such that it extends outside of the belt pulley and then make the shaft a standard bearing bore dia, say 25 mm and have the support bearing on this extended shaft. You would want to make sure that you have a good pilot diameter where it engages your spline adapter as I don't like to have shafts pilot on threads. Just a thought. Love your spline adapter.

Rex


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Rex Schimmer on November 16, 2010, 11:02:08 AM
Briz,
Looking at your lash up I may be missing your thinking regarding an outer support bearing. Are you thinking about having the bearing around your extension shaft? This does look like it would require a large bearing. Most bearings are rated at maximum continuous speed and your application is really pretty intermittent. Probably calling one of the bearing companies would get you an engineer that could tell you if a 60mm bearing would live in your application.

Rex


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on November 16, 2010, 02:32:59 PM
Rex - you're right. I'm going to make a plate which will go directly behind the clutch / engine pulley. This is similar to what is used on aftermarket HD belt drive kits.
Since HD primarys have a bearing between the clutch and the rear drive sprocket it makes sense to do it this way. Especially since I'm going to have a electric start which will need such a plate for support.
I'll ask my local bearing suppliers about what you mentioned.

Frenchowl; the overhang isn't so much the result of there being no alternator, but more because thats how the dimensions stack up. With a 180 rear tyre the gearbox has to be in a set place. There isn't any scope for moving anything inboard except the possible use of Baker Drivetrains DSCC right-side drive transmission which moves the whole clutch assembly a couple of inches inboard and has the output on the right.  Unfortunately, these trannys go for megabucks and are probably not transplantable into the FXR case.
The only other option is to offset the engine, but this would unbalance the bike.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: thefrenchowl on November 16, 2010, 03:18:42 PM
Hi Briz,

Had a look at my SKF catalogue, surprising!!!

The 60 x 78 x 10 you're looking at, ball bearing ref 61812, is rated at 9000 rpm, good for 8710 Newton dynamic.

I use usually the 25 x 52 x 15 ball bearing ref 6205 in me H-D cranks, that's rated 12000rpm and 14000 Newton dynamic, so the load doesn't increase necesserally with the size...

I also use, same place, a single lip roller bearing, same dimms, 25 x 52 x 15 ref N205, that is 11000rpm and 16800 Newton dynamic.

You would have to go for a 60 x 95 x 11 ball bearing, ref 16012, to get to 19900 Newton dynamic but revs fall to 8000rpm...

That's for open bearings. If you add oil seals, the speed goes down again...

Patrick


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on February 08, 2011, 02:43:31 PM
No physical progress; still working thru customer stuff, but I just had a very interesting conversation with Ron Jones, who was heavily involved in the weslake V-twin project. His firm supplied a lot of the hard parts that went into the engine; fronted the dough to have the crank-forging dies made and was responsible for the castings.
Amazingly the whole saga isn't over yet and theres still stuff in the wings, so to speak.
But the most unexpected aspect is that this engine I have here is basically a forerunner of the now defunct Excelsior-Henderson X-twin of the nineties. The Hanlon bros. (of E-H) bought the patterns etc, but the original development was done in England.
From a dark corner of the E-H website:
http://www.excelsiorhenderson.com/ehwebsite/photo/index.php?album=eh-company-archives/weslake-engine-co.-england
Transitional castings modded to accept starter etc:
(http://www.excelsiorhenderson.com/ehwebsite/photo/zp-core/i.php?a=eh-company-archives%2Fweslake-engine-co.-england&i=006-weslake-engine-first-cast-bv-jan-96_excelsior-henderson.jpg&s=595&cw=&ch=&q=90)
Completed drivetrain; obviously a lot of changes happened before the bike went into production:
(http://www.excelsiorhenderson.com/ehwebsite/photo/zp-core/i.php?a=eh-company-archives%2Fweslake-engine-co.-england&i=005-weslake-engine-mockup-orig-9-94_excelsior-henderson.jpg&s=595&cw=&ch=&q=90)


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on March 09, 2011, 06:01:43 PM
OK! some progress.
We have ourselves a drivetrain, a charging system and a crank-trigger ignition
Believe it or not, you're looking at over a weeks work to get this far.... :roll:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Primarydone1.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Primarydone2.jpg)
The ignition triggers are 2 Ford Fiesta crank sensors (only one shown) mounted 50 degrees apart with a one-tooth rotor (turned from 4" dia solid bar!) keyed  onto the pulley extension.
Half a day was spent naffing about trying to make 2 Mondeo Duratek sensors work. They didn't!
Went with the 2x 78mm OD bearings behind the crank pulley. Machined the plate to the FXR's 11.3125" centres and was relieved to find it slipped over the 2 shafts perfectly!
Pythagarus and careful measurements wins the day!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on March 10, 2011, 12:01:15 AM
Gretchen, my 13 year old, is learning the pythagoran theorem.  The teacher said this would help her.  She did not think so.  We looked at your engine.  She is impressed.  Her question.  Where are all the triangles?


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: bones on March 10, 2011, 05:36:43 AM
Hi Briz
    The wourld is getting smaller
   Alan, the guy in Aus with the V twin gave me a Mk 4 which I have been making int a lsr.
   He is a wealth of information about anything speedway and.
   I got a bunch of parts through nortonist's mate and speedway services.
   Maybe we should have a gathering--- Weslakes at Bonneville.
   I hope to take mine over this year
    Good luck with the project.
   cheers     Bones


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on March 10, 2011, 05:42:31 AM
Theres only one; I took the measurements for crank-to-rear-flange and the gearbox mainshaft-to-front-flange, but I wanted to mount the gearbox high, so the diagonal hypotenuse dimension needed to be 11.3125".
I also have 1/2" alloy plate in stock and figured that I'd raise the gearbox enough to make the engine-to-gearbox adapter plates exactly 1" thick. Which worked out nicely.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on March 10, 2011, 05:49:20 AM
Bones, sounds good. The weslake gang! Only thing is we're not going until next year. Is the Mk 4 a single or a twin? Good luck with it. I'm also unearthing a heap of weslake info. Just got contact details of a guy who laid down a deposit on a v-twin but never got it as the firm went bust. So Ron Valentine gave him all the plans & drawings for the engine instead!
Julian Cranfield has been helpful too with much technical data. He's in touch with Brian Valentine who is going to dig out some original paperwork.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on March 24, 2011, 07:29:08 AM
Some progress; Swingarm done - modified Honda Blackbird:

(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/swingarmdone.jpg)

Setup on jig:

(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Jigsetup.jpg)

Main frame loop almost done:

(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/FrameloopRH.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/FrameloopLH.jpg)


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: oz on March 24, 2011, 03:13:03 PM
Looking good!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on March 26, 2011, 03:50:24 PM
Frames off the jig & fully welded. Still brackets to add of course, but the big bits done.
I think I understand why all the guys making featherbed frames bronze-weld them. Its nothing to do with the desirability of brazing or tradition etc.
Its because those crossover tubes around the headstock are a complete bitch to get a TIG torch around! Had to finish the last bit of the lower front tube with oxy-acetylene. Admittedly thats not a part of a normal FB,(theres a gusset instead) but the other joins were no party either.
Took the bathroom scales down & weighed it - 28lbs, which is typical of a 17g chrome-moly frame.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Framecomplete.jpg)


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on April 01, 2011, 05:08:06 PM
Onwards & upwards.... Hagons have kindly agreed to sponsor the bike with a pair of shocks, which arrived yesterday. Thanks guys :-D
Got the oiltank done. Nothing fancy just an ally box with a big spout. Holds about 3.5 litres.
Having it under the gearbox will stop it wet-sumping. Return goes into the spout so you can see it returning.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/oiltank.jpg)

Made a pair of basic 1" thick triple clamps, shortened up the CBR1000 forks by 5.5"; there was a 4" spacer in there over the springs, so I eliminated that and shortened the stanchions by that amount. The last 1.5" was taken out of the damper rods. I dont need 5 inches wheel movement with 3" ground clearance!
Knocked up a pair of clipons - at least on this bike theres no agonising about handlebar choice :D
I know I gotta have a steering damper, so I incorporated a lug on the bottom yoke to attach it. Dug the damper out of a box of junk where it had languished for 20 years! Everything becomes useful eventually.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Frontendon.jpg)

And heres the rolling bike - at last!
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Rollingbike.jpg)


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on April 01, 2011, 10:56:13 PM
Briz, it is hard to see the oil tank details but it looks like one side is bolted to the frame.  Is there enough room for it to expand and contract when the oil gets hot and cools, with no fatiguing of the metal?


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on April 02, 2011, 01:34:16 PM
Yeah, not a problem. Its rubber-mounted on 4 HD softail tank mounting bushes. What you see in the pic are the alloy top hat spacers I used to weld the brackets.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: beerbellykelly on April 27, 2011, 05:37:28 PM
really good looking salt ripper-the FB frames are hard to beat for trad good looks.like the idea of the underslung oiltank.
we found that putting a ratchet strap round the fork leg between the two yokes was all we needed to hold the bike firm after a run.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: straydog2012 on August 31, 2011, 05:21:10 AM
Briz, don't know if you saw these pics, but seem to show Alan's bike:

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/jones%20wessy%20v%20twin%201.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/jones%20wessy%20v%20twin.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/jones%20v%20twin%20wessy.jpg)

The burb (July 2010) says "Jonesy" owns it  ...here is the link:
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=14242.15 (http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=14242.15)

Geoff


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on August 31, 2011, 07:31:10 AM
I hadn't seen those shots Geoff; thanks.
Looks like the transmission is just an empty case there. Hope he's got the rest of it!

Should be able to report more progress soon, been on it for a couple of weeks. Done a dunpy little gas tank, seat unit and some complicated induction parts so far.
Less than a year to go now - gotta get serious!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: straydog2012 on September 01, 2011, 02:58:49 AM
Looking forward to your updates, Briz. I wondered if you have any idea where I can get hold of a pushrod Weslake v-twin engine? I am in the UK...this is my email:
gstray@btopenworld.com

Geoff


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on September 01, 2011, 07:18:44 AM
'Fraid not Geoff. Last one I saw was in 'classic bike' magazine classifieds a few years ago.
I have an ongoing ebay search for anything 'weslake' - nothings come up in the last year.
You might ask around the grasstrack sidecar bunch; but you'll have figured that out yourself I suspect.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on October 05, 2011, 02:11:47 PM
'Bout time I updated things.

Thu Aug 18, 2011
Thought a good deal about the intake system for this. The supplied manifolds on the engine were lifted straight from the 500 singles. The front one was at a silly angle especially for the carburation that the engine would have been expected to have.
Even with injection, the throttle body would have been going thru my chest! Not ideal.
So something more appropriate was in order. Originally I envisaged using TL1000 throttle bodies, but they're huge and incorporate the injectors, whereas I wanted the injectors downstream of the TBs and pointing in a straight shot at the valves.
Then another idea occured. Why not have a single throttle body feeding a plenum, which would then feed a manifold/ injector housing which would extend the 2 ports to each valve back several inches? A long ram effect with a smooth flow.
Now individual throttle bodys are well known to give a snappier throttle response compared with a plenum, but thinking about it, on a long straight run on the salt snappy throttle response isn't needed or wanted - I imagine you could quite easily induce wheelspin on each gearchange.
So a more damped response is a good thing in this application.
Of course, its easy to forget that airflow needs to be considered holistically (!) Its no good having a perfect port layout if the atmosphere its drawing upon is going the other way at 150mph!
Laminarity of flow is what I'm after. And if its easily convertable to turbocharging, so much the better.
Heres the pics. You can see that the throttle body (off a volvo) will point forwards and the plenum is a curved tube affair to keep it all moving in the right direction. Ducting is deliberately kept on the large side to provide the plenum area right up to the manifolds.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/inductiontop.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/inductionlh.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/inductionrear.jpg)

Gas tank. This is the dumpiest tank I ever made! Function before form here.
It needed to be tall enough to house the fuel pump:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/tankbase.jpg)
But short so I can hunker down behind it out of the airstream. Took a day & a half sandbagging & wheeling - my arm hurts! but its done:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/tank.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/tankonbike.jpg)

Sat Sep 10, 2011
Got loads more done now. Almost ready to blow it all apart & look inside the engine.
Mostly brackets etc of course.
Exhausts, according to Julian Cranfield, should be 54" long. Thats why they have to snake up the inside of the footpegs. I know the rules say the exhausts cant point at either the salt or the rider!:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/exhausts.jpg)
RH footpeg setup:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/RHpeg.jpg)
LH footpeg & shift linkage:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/shiftlinkage.jpg)
HD boxes were never made to have rearsets!

Wed Oct 05, 2011
With the fabrication done, the frame etc off for paint and some customer stuff done, I'm tearing into the engine.
In order to get the cam timing right on reassembly, I fished out my old Hagon 'dural' timing disc. Probably a collectors item now!
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/SettingTDC.jpg)

I have to figure it all out myself with this - no manuals. Dismantling the cam drive was a puzzle, but got there in the end.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Camdrive-1.jpg)

Dealing with a lot of 25 year old silicone seal doesn't help. All stuck fast. Being a low production lump, some things weren't well sorted - like how do you get a socket on this bolt? A bit of machining needed here.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Howdafuck.jpg)

Finally got the head & barrel off. Dished pistons and small volume chambers. Tomorrow I'm going to have to take a burette to it all to measure the compression.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/piston.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Rchamberpistontop.jpg)

Relieved that the cylinder bore looks in good condition (dont know about the front one yet) I had fears of rust from all those years in storage.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on October 07, 2011, 02:26:30 PM
I've just about figured out all I need to know about the engine now.
The pistons have a Cosworth part number which I noted down. It looks a lot like the dish in the piston top is added later. I suspect they were flat-tops as supplied.
I called Cosworth and they confirmed that it was made for the Weslake. Its not lifted from another application.
The one in their catalog which looked close turned out to be about 5mm taller. So thats no good.
Cosworth dont have any of the weslake pistons in stock. Minimum orders apply, so thats out.
The trouble is, the (perfect for the street) 10:1 ones I have are a bit too high for turbo use and not high enough for NA
I'm gonna contact Ross pistons, who according to ol' Sumo have a reasonable minimum order of 4. They apparently were willing to do Sumos as 2 pairs with slightly different diameters so he could have spares for any reboring.
I'm wondering if they'll do 2 pairs of different compression ratios. One pair at 9:1 and one at 13:1 would be great. I'll call them Monday.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 07, 2011, 05:23:54 PM
My oldest son's Triumph had a backfire and it blew up his airbox.  My Triumph backfires occasionally and sometimes it pops off an air filter, or one time, both carbs.  Now I clamp the carbs to the manifolds and the cleaners to the carbs with just enough pressure to make a seal and no more.  I want things to come apart without breaking anything.  So far, it works.  Just an idea.  I was looking at all of that fancy intake plumbing.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on October 09, 2011, 06:29:11 AM
Thats a good point. I was going to have a blow-off valve in the plumbing before the throttle body for the turbo.
Might be a good idea to have one after it too for those reasons.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: peterdallan on October 10, 2011, 01:21:14 PM
Has your engine ever been used? It looks brand new!

Peter


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on October 10, 2011, 04:49:07 PM
It is Peter. Never run at all as far as I can see.
Just sat on somebodys shelf for 25 years. :? Must have been an expensive purchase back then. Go figure.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on January 20, 2012, 05:56:39 PM
Right then! I've worked off all the customer-work for awhile so I can devote my whole attention to finishing the bike.
Got a package thru from Ross Pistons today.
First I gotta dry-assemble one cylinder to check valve clearances. A real pain on this DOHC lump where everything has to be done with degree wheels & dial gauges. :roll:
Heres one of the new ones (left) next to one of the old Cosworth ones (right)
Nice bit of workmanship.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Rosspistons.jpg)


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: saltwheels262 on January 20, 2012, 07:50:42 PM
looks like you're pumping the compression.

what is the difference between the 2?

bf


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on January 21, 2012, 09:17:36 AM
Just the compression. The new ones have a 4cc dome whereas the old ones had a 6cc dish. Bumps the compression from 10:1 to 14:1.
Definitely not pump gas friendly!
Wonder if the starter will get a hernia lumping that over!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 21, 2012, 02:51:45 PM
I just checked out your build from the start, neat stuff. Interesting to see the head bolt setup is like the 59 ESO I have here, presumably to free up the head for ports. These old hand crafted engines are so cool to work on, you can feel the history in your hands.
  Sid.
ps  SP250 in the blue bike looks like fun. 


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on January 23, 2012, 02:50:14 PM
Thanks Sid, yeah the V8 bike worked out well. Very rideable.

Saturday, I made some tools to help set cam timing including one which locks the cam at max lift. Makes the job a breeze! The cam sprockets have vernier adjustment; once the correct sequence of work is figured out, its not the nightmare job I had feared. Phew!

Did the modelling clay test today to check valve-to-piston clearance.
0.040" - 0.050"
Hmmmmm....
Normally .060" is the rule-of-thumb minimum, so I'm in a bit of a quandary now.
I know the valvetrain on this motor is safe to 14,000 rpm (!) - far more than the bottom end will take which is about 10,500. So valve float or bounce isn't likely to be a factor.
And the tall crankcase will likely expand with heat more than the steel con-rods so clearance might widen when its up to temperature.
Setting up the pistons to take .020" off the valve notches is going to be a pain.
This test was done with the cams set at 103.5 degrees which is what Julian Cranfield recommended. Dave Perry on the other hand reckoned about 105-106 degrees. This might well make a big difference to clearances and the later intake closing point may favour high RPM power.
I'll try it again tomorrow at 105 degrees. If it makes no difference I'll be back to the same decision.



Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Nortonist 592 on January 23, 2012, 03:09:25 PM
Briz.  David is right.  I have both my Weslakes at 106 degrees.  Mine don't like anything beyond that.  Also I have been running VP C10 and ERC 110 race gas with no issues for years now.  I've never tried pump gas.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on January 23, 2012, 05:58:13 PM
Ah! thanks Bill, I'll see what the clay says tomorrow!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on January 24, 2012, 01:58:54 AM
Briz, what about using a thicker base or head gasket?  You will lose more compression than relieving the pistons but it is much easier to do.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on January 24, 2012, 06:28:08 AM
Yeah, that'd work, but I dont want to lose the 'quench' relationship between the head & piston. Its already .050" (head gasket thickness) I'd like it better if it was .040"


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on January 24, 2012, 04:01:06 PM
Phew! All sorted now.
Clearance with the cams set at 106 degrees is .075".
I'm comfortable with that.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Nortonist 592 on January 26, 2012, 12:52:25 AM
Glad to hear that!!  Now you will be the worlds fastest Weslake!!!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on January 26, 2012, 06:02:46 AM
Well maybe!! :-D


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on January 26, 2012, 03:38:30 PM
Obviously I cant go to the Weslake dealer and get a gasket set for this engine!
On my own I think. So; a chunk of copper sheet off ebay and a days buggering about - much of it de-burring.
Made 6 of them.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Headgasket2.jpg)
Just gotta anneal them now.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Nortonist 592 on January 26, 2012, 05:37:58 PM
What??!!  David hasn't got full sets on the shelf??  Whats the world coming to?

I was going to say earlier but decided against it.  My Weslake sheet says 98-102 deg.  I was told by an extremely knowledgeable Weslake tuner to use 112 deg.  I tried it but my Weslake didn't want to know that setting.  I backed it down 2 deg. at a time until I got to 106 deg.  Thats when it started to fly.  Hope it all works out for you.  Looking forward to seeing how it works.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on February 01, 2012, 07:32:52 AM
Thanks Bill. Wow! 98 degrees really would be a lot of overlap!
Assembly finally gets started. Decided to have the pistons coated, thats why the top-ends still off.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Assemblystarted.jpg)


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on February 02, 2012, 12:55:39 AM
Briz, the diary does not say how you are going to anneal those gaskets.  It in the past I have had mixed success with annealing big copper gaskets with a torch.  Some hard spots remained.  Now I take them to a foundry and they put them in the big oven, heat them evenly, and do the quench.  The entire gasket is soft after they do it.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on February 03, 2012, 03:17:23 PM
Did them with a torch WW. I'd struggle to find anyone with a furnace round here.
I had the tops of the liners O ringed, so if they're not soft enough the wire rings wont embed enough and there would be an observable gap between cylinder & gasket.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: peterdallan on February 03, 2012, 04:12:53 PM
Hi Briz

What is the rake?

Looking good!

Peter


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on February 03, 2012, 05:51:48 PM
40 degrees Peter. If I remember right!

Got a bit stuck. Camcoat are V busy and I wont get the pistons back for at least another week. Lots I cant do with the topend still off.
I'll probably make a start on the wiring. With the Microsquirt ECU and the wideband setup, theres lots to do!
I saved the engine loom from an old Volvo I broke for parts a few years ago. It has ALL the connectors I need. Never throw anything away!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on February 04, 2012, 10:02:41 AM
Briz, you have annealed your gaskets and this will not be an immediate help.  This is info for others.  Industrial furnaces are hard to find since almost everything is made somewhere else.  The art community uses gas furnaces for melting glass, baking pottery, and metal work.  A copper smith with a foundry in an art cooperative annealed a BSA head gasket for my old A-65.  He heated it evenly to a dull red and plonked it into water.

Please show some posts about setting up the squirt and wideband.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: beerbellykelly on February 06, 2012, 11:32:54 AM
hey briz-
still following the build-got a small foundry here at my place if it helps-got a few melts going in next week when im back from ireland-

p.j. saltbeEFE


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on February 06, 2012, 02:57:15 PM
Cheers PJ. Probably sorted now. If I get a problem I'll give you a shout.

Its a good job I hadn't assembled the top-end; I'd forgotten the need for a temperature sensor.
Grabbed a twincam one and found a place on the back of the front head where it could go - there isn't a lot of spare material on these castings.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/machininghead.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Tempsensor.jpg)
Some minor clearancing on the intake and its good to go.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: oz on February 06, 2012, 04:03:21 PM
 Temperature sensor for what, if air will it not be influenced by your cylinder head temp,mine is further back on the intake the airbox in fact.If MAP sensor would it not be better on a common part of the intake so pressure is kinda balanced between both pots mine is linked through all 4 cylinders to the unit itself.
or is it the equivelent of my water temp sensor for an aircooled,just wondering.

Cheers Oz


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Dr Goggles on February 06, 2012, 04:21:12 PM
I saved the engine loom from an old Volvo I broke for parts a few years ago. It has ALL the connectors I need. Never throw anything away!

I worked for a guy who sold second hand parts from Volvos and Jaguars, there was a difference.Pretty much all the Volvo electrics went in the bin, why?..they were worthless because no-one needed to buy them, nothing ever went wrong with them,they were over engineered to the point of the ridiculous. I still have various bits and pieces, the patch bays were beautiful pieces of work.

The Jaguar stuff was different, it was sought after, for all the wrong reasons.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on February 06, 2012, 04:54:39 PM
Oz; yes, its the same as coolant temp on a watercooled lump. The microsquirt has inputs for engine temp and inlet air temp.

Doc; you're right about Volvos, our '91 740 now has 350K miles on it. And it aint quittin' yet.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on February 07, 2012, 12:00:26 AM
Briz, I think you have a twin brother in England named Briz with a Diamler V-8 powered bike.  Really well done.  I saw an article about it Backstreet Choppers.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on February 07, 2012, 06:54:31 PM
Thanks WW. The feature was a good one. Pretty pleased with the bike so far, very rideable.
Did a vid when first registered:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_LZ8YpdmNg


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on February 20, 2012, 03:07:05 PM
Time for an update. Got the pistons back from coating last week, and now finally got the top-end buttoned up.
If I have to do the damned cam timing one more time I'm gonna scream!
This engine is basically a good one, all the fundamentals are tough and capable of making plenty of power. But the way the top-end goes together is just nuts. One suspects the influence of recreational drugs!
After much faffing about with cams that were binding in their end-thrust washers and trying to prevent oil leaks (which I suspect may be a losing battle) its together.
BTW; WW, you were right to caution about patchy annealing of the head gaskets. Couldn't get the rear one to compress fully. Had to take it apart and anneal it again. OK now.
Intake & wiring next.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/goingtogetherf.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/goingtogetherr.jpg)


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Nortonist 592 on February 20, 2012, 03:14:34 PM
Weslake cam timing builds character!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on February 21, 2012, 01:01:40 AM
It is easier to see how the rear end is set up with the different colors on the swing arm and frame.  It look good.  It has the lowness of a rigid job and suspension like a taller bike.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on March 10, 2012, 08:18:04 AM
Of course, one of the neat things about race bikes is the simplicity of wiring them, right? No annoying lights, turn signals etc. :D
Yeah, right! 2 weeks in, I'm about done :roll:  My own fault for getting all fancy with fuel-injection.

I've had it cranking over so far but couldn't get oil pressure until I overfilled the tank. Dry old pump wouldn't suck enough! I dont have a gauge, but the way the starter slowed when the oil light went out indicates theres plenty pressure.

Heres the completed loom: After reading of Oz's VR signal woes, I went overboard screening not only the VR sensor wires, but also the coil & injector circuits. Shredded a couple of old printer & antenna leads to get the braided stuff.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/MSloom.jpg)

Here it is installed: The 3 relays are: main system, fuel pump & starter.The loose coiled wire is the ECU bootlogger connection. Grounding this clears the ECU code. I wont be doing that!
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/microsquirtwired.jpg)

Heres the wideband oxygen sensor module with MAP sensor & main circuit breaker.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/WBmodule.jpg)

VR sensors:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/VRsensors.jpg)

Injectors:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Injectorwiring.jpg)


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Old Scrambler on March 10, 2012, 04:44:09 PM
Very cool build...........I don't like wire............so I'll stay out of your way!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on March 11, 2012, 01:26:27 AM
Thanks for showing this, Briz.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on March 19, 2012, 09:39:11 PM
A gauge with a lambda wideband sensor is how I check my fuel/air mixture at Bonneville.  The setup quit working a couple of years ago.  I was running 110 octane leaded gas and I forgot to remove the sensor.  The lead killed it, I think.  The microsquirt depends on wideband sensors to get input.  Does this limit you to running unleaded, only?


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on March 20, 2012, 08:59:24 AM
Yeah, pretty much. But if I need more octane, as long as I've dialled in a good fuel map I can run without the wideband O2 sensor.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: beerbellykelly on March 20, 2012, 05:13:58 PM
everyone,s in a spaghetti western!-it,s just before 10.30 at night here , i been spaghetti,ng all day too.all new to me,digital signals...
look forward to hearing this lusty vee twin bellow-see you saturday briz.
p.j.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Geo on April 20, 2012, 10:34:18 PM
Briz,

Hope you don't mind me placing this in your build because I could not remember which bike build by beerbellykelly, SUMO, Briz, Desperate may have had a start/run problem with the new wiring and your photo shows the shielded wire. I have been thrilled at the work by all of you and looking forward to tales of your runs.

I was reading the latest version of "Data Acquisition" and a point jumped out at me that I thought I should share.  On a shielded cable you only ground one end of the shield and that should be the one nearest the sensor. Otherwise ground loops and noise cause all sorts of problems. As can using two seperated (independant) batteries, having low voltage, not enough grounds.  Hope this is useful to someone.  Cheers to all.  :cheers:

Geo


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on April 22, 2012, 01:04:14 PM
Thanks Geo
We've been having a hell of a time here trying to get this thing going. A solid month since the first attempt to start it up, and it finally started yesterday.
Not running well; the ignition is all over the place. Very rich, which would be easily dealt with but without a consistent ignition, its hopeless.
Young David, who is much smarter than me with EFI stuff has been very helpful here with the laptop, but he now agrees that a stand-alone ignition system would exorcise a lot of demons.
So I've set about altering the timing cover to take an HD pickup plate, and turned a special rotor up. Decided to shell out the dough for a TwinTec ignition box.
And if that isn't enough, its carburetor time......


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Jon on April 22, 2012, 03:52:19 PM
What ignition pickups & wheel are you using Briz?
Where is the chopper wheel driving from?

If the ECU isn't happy enough with the ignition pickup signals to get the spark timing right I would have thought that it would struggle to get the fuel close as well.

Cheers
jon


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on April 22, 2012, 04:16:21 PM
Got twin VR sensors with a single tooth crank trigger. When cranking, they should fire at alignment, which is at TDC.
But as soon as it starts, it goes crazy.
I've got no more time to spend on it and dont really care anymore, its had its chance, I now have to do something else.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on April 23, 2012, 12:23:30 AM
Briz, a lot of us are running a simple ignition system and carbs 'cause when something does not work it is a lot easier to diagnose and fix.  We know that EFI is better than carbs and do not consider the benefits to be worth the complication.   


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on April 23, 2012, 05:30:39 AM
WW; I'm definitely coming round to that way of thinking!
From what I hear, theres no advantage to EFI in flat-out WOT situations anyway. Some say carbs still have an edge on power.
I thought a bit of laptop tweaking would be easier than getting gas everywhere changing jets. Not so sure now!
I'll still be keeping the wideband oxygen sensor stuff.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: RidgeRunner on April 25, 2012, 06:10:25 AM
Got twin VR sensors with a single tooth crank trigger. When cranking, they should fire at alignment, which is at TDC.
But as soon as it starts, it goes crazy.
I've got no more time to spend on it and dont really care anymore, its had its chance, I now have to do something else.

     Any chance that the signal wires are picking up interference on their way back to the ECU?


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on April 25, 2012, 07:04:05 AM
Nope; We've done as much as anyone could to shield them short of encasing them in reinforced concrete!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: harky on April 26, 2012, 04:14:02 AM
hi all
just read the whole thread , great read and build
totally unrelated , I worked on Weslake engines in SAAB rally cars in the late 70s thay came to Australia
in  rally cars driven by STIG BLOOMQUIST and were the equivilant of ford BDA engines . they made over 200 hp ( on carbys) and @ that time was quite the thing . One of the engines was left in Adelaide and is in a very plain SAAB 99 ----a real sleeper
So Weslake was @ all sorts of things
I run an old GPZ on the salt in OZ with motec ---- not too fast yet but working on it
looking forward to the riding report
cheers
harky


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: 38flattie on April 26, 2012, 05:15:10 AM
I finally read this whole thread.

Great build with a lot of detail. Good luck!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: oz on April 26, 2012, 10:34:10 AM
I had to move reg rec away from ecu and that did the trick for me, I think you could/should  run single trigger they may be interfering with each other and time it from that as an offset beetween cylinders.
Just my ten peneth but may be worth a go before you start a major re work.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on May 08, 2012, 06:18:17 PM
Well the fuel-injection is gone. Sold the microsquirt & a heap of other efi stuff on ebay last week most of which made good money. Which helps. :-D
Had the BBC film crew round last thursday. Had to do something on the bike for them to film, so i took off the timing cover & set about machining it for HD ignition parts. They got bored with milling and left halfway through.
A bit more work than envisaged, but its in there:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/HDign2.jpg)

(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/HDign1.jpg)

These are the carbs I got for it:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Carbs.jpg)

Need to get this all installed. Conflicting pressures (customers!) Not a lot of time.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: saltwheels262 on May 08, 2012, 06:39:50 PM
what brand ignition ?
I don't recognize the carbs , either.

franey



Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on May 08, 2012, 06:51:29 PM
I bought a Twin-Tec module & coil. Similar to Crane Hi-4E. Can set it for 9500 rev limit.
Carbs are late 80s Screamin' eagle Keihins. Never that great on the street, but should be fine for this. Smaller than S&S's and  about a sixth of the cost!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: saltwheels262 on May 08, 2012, 07:11:17 PM
okay. my twin tech does not have a module, self contained.

maybe the carbs are from an xr motor? flat tracker? ( with a clamp on air filters ).


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on May 09, 2012, 04:03:06 AM
Couldn't use any of the self-contained type ignitions; they will all only work on a 45 degree motor - this one is 50 degree. By making the rotor with the cutouts at the right angle apart, this one will work OK.
The carbs were offered by HD as a performance part in the late 80s & 90s for evos. Many folks used them to get around cold weather carb-icing experienced with the stock CV carb. But they have only 2 metering circuits and are hard to fine-tune for good street manners. A thunderjet kit helps. They're related to the stock 40mm Keihins found on late shovels and early evos.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Vinsky on May 09, 2012, 12:45:53 PM
Dynatek's DS6-2 is a single fire ignition for 45 Harleys, but there is enough adjustment in the modules to get 50 degrees out of  them. I'm using this setup on my Vincent project.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on May 10, 2012, 12:05:56 AM
Briz, those carbs look good.  One thing I do is to connect a clear small diameter breather hose between the top of the float chamber and the bottom of the chamber.  The level of the fuel in the little hose corresponds to the fuel level in the float chamber.  Then the bike is run at full throttle for a few seconds on the dyno.  The fuel level might drop a small amount at first then it should hold steady at the proper level.  The level dropping and staying down is a sign the float valve or fuel cock is too restrictive.

The reason I tell you this is some fuel systems that work OK on the street cannot flow enough for the sustained open throttle madness that is LSR.  It is an easy problem to fix if it is detected early.

The float bowl venting system should not be altered when you do this.  Sometimes I put a "T" the float bowl vent hose and connect the top of the little hose to it.  I pull out the float bowl drain screw and hook the bottom end of the little hose to it.  All of this is taken off after the dyno run.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on June 22, 2012, 03:38:50 PM
Well, everythings as done as its going to get now. Did a dyno-run last week; the jetting in those SE carbs were surprisingly weak. Going from 165s to 185s still wasn't enough, and 185s were the biggest I had. We made a couple of pulls and got 100HP. Far from optimised. All down to the great white dyno now!

Did a short vid of it running (195 jets now):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_IKuj4Ncts&feature=youtu.be

Here it is ready for loading:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Donereadytoload2.jpg)

And with Shaun, who's coming along to crew:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Shaunbike.jpg)

On the truck:

(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Ontruck3.jpg)

Ready to roll. Off to the shippers first thing tomorrow along with the other guys:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Weslake%20V%20twin/Ontruck.jpg)

Gotta be honest, I'll be glad to see the back of it for awhile!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: peterdallan on June 23, 2012, 11:10:16 AM
Good luck Briz!!

Peter


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Koncretekid on June 23, 2012, 12:23:00 PM
Are you guys going to stay for the BUB Speed Trials August 25th? I certainly hope so 'cause you've got a fantastic build there.
Tom


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Glen on June 23, 2012, 12:44:12 PM
Nice looking package including the transporter.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Nortonist 592 on June 23, 2012, 12:51:01 PM
Good luck Briz.  See you on the salt.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: rgn on June 23, 2012, 11:50:30 PM
Briz, thanks for sharing your build!  I have enjoyed the read and the corresponding history associated with the Weslake v-twin.  You have certainly created a bike that does that beautiful engine justice.  Congratulations and good luck!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on June 24, 2012, 12:09:27 AM
Good job, Briz.  A hundred horsepower is not shabby.  We will be at BUB.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: racer on June 24, 2012, 01:04:35 AM
Fantastic build....

See ya on the salt.....


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Moxnix on June 24, 2012, 10:28:56 AM
...a fine motorbike, etc. ...


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on June 25, 2012, 06:01:39 AM
Thanks guys, its on its way now. See you all out on the salt.
Cant stay for BUB unfortunately, funds wont stretch that far I'm afraid; this has already cost more than the GDP of most 3rd world countries!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on August 10, 2012, 09:28:54 PM
Well, we made it!
we're here at Bonneville; everything has worked out well so far.
The bikes arrived at LA OK, all the online booking of transport and accomodation has gone smoothly.
we arrived at wendover on wednesday and went out to the salt yesterday morning and got the pits setup:
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y197/flak_monkey/Bonneville%20Speedweek%202012/m_DSC00200.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y197/flak_monkey/Bonneville%20Speedweek%202012/m_DSC00178.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y197/flak_monkey/Bonneville%20Speedweek%202012/m_DSC00179.jpg)
After a little preparation, Desperate & I got the bikes into tech inspection; Mine passed and desperates Indian just needed a little lockwiring. Registration now completed and ready to do the rookie thing. tomorrow....assuming the salt dries out!
One screwup; I discovered that I'd badly miscalculated gear ratios. Turns out at max rpms it would theoretically be doing 270mph! Biggest rear sprocket on now, but top gear isnt going to be 5th!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Old Scrambler on August 12, 2012, 09:09:28 PM
You won't know 'till you try it :cheers:


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on August 12, 2012, 11:44:43 PM
Looks good.  Tell us how it goes.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake?.....well, not as it turns out!!!!!!
Post by: Briz on August 17, 2012, 05:49:18 PM
Well, speed week is over, and we're leaving amazed, defeated and with many lessons learned.
This stuff is no cakewalk, as we discovered and as you all already knew!
We never got to grips with fuel supply and had much trouble with carb vibration.
Some makeshift rubber mounting of said carbs saw our best run on tuesday of 111mph. We typically ran out of power halfway up the first measured mile which indicates fuel starvation despite enough fuel  line capacity to run a big-block. Should have had a pump.
The bike itself proved to handle well and went straight.
Pretty sure we'll be back. Probably not next year but in 2014.
I'm kind of through trying to re-invent the wheel with this drivetrain and will be selling it on in favour of something with better parts & knowledge base, maybe a Buell XB9 lump or similar. The Weslake is a strong engine but its going to take a lot of time and testing to get the best from it. And this is not easy when you live on a different continent from the salt!
The  bike goes to the shippers in Los Angeles on Monday.
Anyone in the US who might want to make an offer on the drivetrain would need to act quick!!!!! :-D


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: wobblywalrus on August 17, 2012, 06:49:53 PM
The big twin in the new Triumph Thunderbird?     


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Nortonist 592 on August 18, 2012, 12:47:24 AM
Briz, I t was a pleasure to meet you even if it was all too brief.  The salt can be cruel but a good teacher at the same time.  Look forward to seeing  you back in 2014.  Think big holes INSIDE the carb.


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Old Scrambler on August 18, 2012, 08:46:58 PM
Overall bowl capacity and flow-rate through the float-valve has cramped a lot of bikes' style on the salt. As your thinking through the carb-intake process.....consider a longer RUBBER intake track and a shorter velocity stack with a 180-degree bell.....possibly turned to the rear with a high-flow air-cleaner.

I first visited the salt in '09.....was a competitor and succeeded with a class record in '11.....and plan to return in '13 with a faster motor and ready to enter more classes.  The experience will keep you coming back 8-) 8-)


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!
Post by: Briz on August 19, 2012, 10:09:33 PM
Briz, I t was a pleasure to meet you even if it was all too brief.  The salt can be cruel but a good teacher at the same time.  Look forward to seeing  you back in 2014.  Think big holes INSIDE the carb.

Good to meet you too Bill. Its been a very interesting experience. We'll certainly be back, and some of the crew guys are now studying the rule book with a view to competing themselves! we're gonna need a 40-foot container at this rate!


Title: Re: The worlds fastest Weslake?.....well, not as it turns out!!!!!!
Post by: WEAL on August 21, 2012, 05:07:45 PM
.....and will be selling it on in favour of something with better parts & knowledge base, maybe a Buell XB9 lump or similar. The Weslake is a strong engine but its going to take a lot of time and testing to get the best from it. And this is not easy when you live on a different continent from the salt!
The  bike goes to the shippers in Los Angeles on Monday.
Anyone in the US who might want to make an offer on the drivetrain would need to act quick!!!!! :-D
[/quote]

Please pm me about that engine - Thanks

Hartmut