I'm easily confused,,,But did this deal go from Chevy to Lasalle back to Chevy?
Dizzy RICK.
From the looks of that mag you better have your pistons coated or it might burn holes in them :-D
Nice looking blower manifold. Just curious why you did not put a burst panel on it, instead of two pop offs? Maybe not enough room?
Tom G.
You will best advised to written approval of the top plate from the Vintage Engine Committee before proceedimg with the build.
DW
Vintage Engine –XO/XXO
Mike Stewart
909-585-9950, 909-855-1648 cell
m.stewart46@yahoo.com
You will best advised to written approval of the top plate from the Vintage Engine Committee before proceedimg with the build.
DW
Vintage Engine –XO/XXO
Mike Stewart
909-585-9950, 909-855-1648 cell
m.stewart46@yahoo.com
and every little bit we can do should help this 'brick'.
JD,
Apparently this chop got the OK from Doug Robinson. See reply #67.
DW
fairly well too :-D
" I'm sure it will look " grate " when you are done. I'll just leave my '40 Chevy coupe alone."
JD was that intentional or just a subconscious Freudian :-o , that speaks to your opinion? :wink:
Buddy, I had a 58 Del Ray when I got married back in 62.
LOL jeez JD what a disappointment, we were all for giving you extra credit for original and creative--- hoping at the very least it was a Freudian
Keep screwing with that 1/4 window and it will look like a Plymouth.
Stan
Geez :-o cross breeding is alive and well in LSR--- :cheers:
you guys better watch it or someone will be following you around for a DNA sample and will be sending it off to a Lab for evaluation!!!!!!! :evil:
racingjunk.com
???
2% engine setback on a vehicle with a 112" wheelbase means that the frontmost sparkplug is 2.24" behind the centerline of the front suspension.
And you have to raise the engine 2" to achieve that?
Mike
Wow - First off, the chop is beautiful.
1 1/2" with springs. I don't know for sure, but it sure doesn't sound like enough for a suspended car. By the time you add the rest of the weight to the front end, I think you'll be shoveling salt. You've probably got at least 1/2" deflection in the tires alone. If the track gets soft in places, I could see it porpoising off the front of the adapter.
You'd hate to lose that engine location. Can you raise the suspension height and frame a couple of ticks, and channel the body over it? There's got to be a compromise we're not seeing here.
All of this, though, is a moot point! I'm no longer going to try and build the car to run in BVGC.
Instead, we're going to concentrate on building a car that should be more 'balanced', with a low CG. We'll set the engine back probably 10-12%, and concentrate on BVGCC, and BVGAL
I thought I'd send some pics of the engine that motivates this build. The owner tells me it ran at Bonneville in 1950, and was a AK Miller build. I have been unable to verify the 1950 runs.
It's a pretty radical engine- domed pistons, huge valves, extra head bolts,Chrysler rods, front mount blower, crank weights cut WAY down,adjustable solid lifters,modified lifter blocks, and water ports all down the side.
My goal is to build a little more modern version of the engine.
I'd run this one, but Aaron won't sell it to me!
Why couldn't you use 1/4 springs and a drop frt axle and move the frt crossmember?
Gonna be tough to get a head off when the record is set.
DW
In the meantime, much of the work is boring rust repair and body work. The mock up engine placement is done, and the cowl has been cut to accommodate the bugcatcher.It's all a part of dealing with antiques, but when it's done, despite the bloodied knuckles and the shop floor covered with silica and steel dust, it's worth the effort.
Hmmm! Wonder if thet'd be interested in doing a straight 8 Buick blank? :cheers: :cheers:
Hmmm! Wonder if thet'd be interested in doing a straight 8 Buick blank? :cheers: :cheers:Joe don't care. Give him a call.
What does the other side of the head look like??
Rex
I would pass as well, gotta keep at least ONE ace up yer sleeve :-D
What does the other side of the head look like??
RexI would pass as well, gotta keep at least ONE ace up yer sleeve :-D
Well, there's clearly two routs about .525 deep. :-D
Now if we can get a good look at the pistons, we might be able to figure it out.
Rex, Tman, I don't think I want to play poker with this guy . . . .
Is 2" enough at the bellhousing?
. . . . The Flatcad that ran in the early '50's.I was able to pull a copy of the photo you mentioned. Quality might be a bit low because of the duplicating process I had to use. Anyway, is this the car you mentioned? (http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh99/Arto_x04/Roadster203d.jpg)
"The car was the DuNah-Goldman entry from Pasadena. It had a 347" '36 Cad for power. It ran 133.130 mph in '50 and 133.729 mph in '51 at the salt. It also ran 143.31 at the lakes in '50. This car was a '28-29 roadster body with a belly pan and race car nose without a grill opening. A picture of it can be found on the ahrf.com website, key number GGC_167."
The website is download protected, but I'm trying to get a picture of the car, from Jim Miller. . . . . .
What does the other side of the head look like??
RexI would pass as well, gotta keep at least ONE ace up yer sleeve :-D
Well, there's clearly two routs about .525 deep. :-D
Now if we can get a good look at the pistons, we might be able to figure it out.
Rex, Tman, I don't think I want to play poker with this guy . . . .
I figured the Harley heads weighed in there with the folks helping you :-D
I figured the Harley heads weighed in there with the folks helping you :-D
I got a chuckle out of that statement. Back in the early 1980's when I was doing my Flathead project, I met Dale and he was the one that told me about the HD heads. So yes they would have that information also.
With a Flathead you can take so many different routes when designing a head, especially with a blower.
Tom G.
I figured the Harley heads weighed in there with the folks helping you :-D
I got a chuckle out of that statement. Back in the early 1980's when I was doing my Flathead project, I met Dale and he was the one that told me about the HD heads. So yes they would have that information also.
With a Flathead you can take so many different routes when designing a head, especially with a blower.
Tom G.
Yup, and since they were working with Abbin I made the connection :-)
Dale has been preaching the attributes of the Harley heads for years, so this was his idea (and Navarro's), with Chris Daniels doing the CAD work.
Do you remember or have any of the bench flow info?
I love when stuff like this is revealed in a thread!
Staring into the crystal ball, checking out the future . . .
I like the Phase 2 head, but I'm wondering why the big bend in the bowl. Looks like about an 85 degree turn, right at the point where you need to smooth out the flow. If you're starting from scratch, you could straighten out the ports by cutting the intake face at an angle, along with the exhaust, and raising where the port enters and exits from the both sides. You'll increase the radius and smooth out the flow, yes? It's not like you're trying to match it up to an existing manifold.
My 2 cents, and worth about half that . . . :-D
Also curious about the bowls in the block - how much room you have to play with on those ports. Any pics?
Tom, what kind of HP were you aiming for?
Hell, it sounds more interesting than my project!
Tom, I wasn't be sarcastic in the least
Staring into the crystal ball, checking out the future . . .
I like the Phase 2 head, but I'm wondering why the big bend in the bowl. Looks like about an 85 degree turn, right at the point where you need to smooth out the flow. If you're starting from scratch, you could straighten out the ports by cutting the intake face at an angle, along with the exhaust, and raising where the port enters and exits from the both sides. You'll increase the radius and smooth out the flow, yes? It's not like you're trying to match it up to an existing manifold.
My 2 cents, and worth about half that . . . :-D
Also curious about the bowls in the block - how much room you have to play with on those ports. Any pics?
Another thought would be to add a 1/2 to 3/4 plates over the entire top of the of each cylinder bank, secure this plate to the block with counter sunk or counter bored bolts that match the existing head bolt pattern then bore through the plate and install sleeves that include the plate thickness, then you can establish a new head bolt pattern into that plate which can be what ever you want. This would raise the deck height by what ever the plate thickness is but this looks like a "labor of love" project anyway so it is just a few more hours on the mill.
Again just "kibizing"!
Rex
Another thought would be to add a 1/2 to 3/4 plates over the entire top of the of each cylinder bank, secure this plate to the block with counter sunk or counter bored bolts that match the existing head bolt pattern then bore through the plate and install sleeves that include the plate thickness, then you can establish a new head bolt pattern into that plate which can be what ever you want. This would raise the deck height by what ever the plate thickness is but this looks like a "labor of love" project anyway so it is just a few more hours on the mill.
Again just "kibizing"!
Rex
Isn't there a rule against doing this type of thing? Something to the effect of deck height has to be within .150 of original deck height and original material. I could be wrong but I remember something to that effect in the rule book. Might want to check the intent of this rule.
Tom G.
Another thought would be to add a 1/2 to 3/4 plates over the entire top of the of each cylinder bank, secure this plate to the block with counter sunk or counter bored bolts that match the existing head bolt pattern then bore through the plate and install sleeves that include the plate thickness, then you can establish a new head bolt pattern into that plate which can be what ever you want. This would raise the deck height by what ever the plate thickness is but this looks like a "labor of love" project anyway so it is just a few more hours on the mill.
Again just "kibizing"!
Rex
Isn't there a rule against doing this type of thing? Something to the effect of deck height has to be within .150 of original deck height and original material. I could be wrong but I remember something to that effect in the rule book. Might want to check the intent of this rule.
Tom G.
Haha! I think you guys are on to something!
...Or are you on something? Lol! :-D
just don't drive down I-10 in Tx with that "script" :-D :cry:
By the way, Buddy, passed your budget figure yet?
Stan
"I HAD a budget. Had to sell the '58 Del Ray to cover the overages. Now I'm selling the Graham Paige to finish the project."
I thought you might have underestimated. I've never done that.
When I built the 28 Mercury 20 years ago, I decided to keep each and every receipt including the short trips to the hardware store for just a few nuts and bolts, etc. After a few months, the total was becoming way too intimidating, so I scrapped that idea.
Stan
When I started my project, about 4 years ago, I kept the receipts for about six or eight months, I realized then that I didnt want to know how much I spent. Also if I didn't keep them my wife couldn't find them. :evil:
"I HAD a budget. Had to sell the '58 Del Ray to cover the overages. Now I'm selling the Graham Paige to finish the project."
I thought you might have underestimated. I've never done that.
When I built the 28 Mercury 20 years ago, I decided to keep each and every receipt including the short trips to the hardware store for just a few nuts and bolts, etc. After a few months, the total was becoming way too intimidating, so I scrapped that idea.
Stan
As long as there's food in the fridge, and gas in the tank, you're under budget.
I HAD a budget. Had to sell the '58 Del Ray to cover the overages. Now I'm selling the Graham Paige to finish the project.
oooooh nah, receipts are a bad idea, they're the sort of thing that could get a man hung......admit nothing ,deny everything, and wear gloves. Anything that turns up in the mail is a warranty repair..... everything you have that ain't being used is worth AT LEAST three times what you paid for it......
When I started my project, about 4 years ago, I kept the receipts for about six or eight months, I realized then that I didnt want to know how much I spent. Also if I didn't keep them my wife couldn't find them. :evil:"I HAD a budget. Had to sell the '58 Del Ray to cover the overages. Now I'm selling the Graham Paige to finish the project."
I thought you might have underestimated. I've never done that.
When I built the 28 Mercury 20 years ago, I decided to keep each and every receipt including the short trips to the hardware store for just a few nuts and bolts, etc. After a few months, the total was becoming way too intimidating, so I scrapped that idea.
Stan
oooooh nah, receipts are a bad idea, they're the sort of thing that could get a man hung......admit nothing ,deny everything, and wear gloves. Anything that turns up in the mail is a warranty repair..... everything you have that ain't being used is worth AT LEAST three times what you paid for it......
Looks really good Flattie. Are you going to modify the seat to give the required helmet side support or are you going to build it into the cage?
Pete
We received the model of the crank back from Crower, and Dale used it to check clearances and fitment on the girdle, bearings, and rear main seal. This is with BBC main and rod bearings.38 when you say Crower sent you a model crank. Do you mean a cad model that can be installed in your Cad drawings. I so WOW!
I know some of you guys prefer the old school way of 'just whittle it', but it sure is nice to know everything is perfect before whittling it!
We received the model of the crank back from Crower, and Dale used it to check clearances and fitment on the girdle, bearings, and rear main seal. This is with BBC main and rod bearings.38 when you say Crower sent you a model crank. Do you mean a cad model that can be installed in your Cad drawings. I so WOW!
I know some of you guys prefer the old school way of 'just whittle it', but it sure is nice to know everything is perfect before whittling it!
Did he really endo his Go Kart and still set top time???
The Road Runners were calling Flatty the Bonanza Kid -- something about being a descendant of Dan Blocker.
I know that Stan - still, just how much aero is there available on a '38 Chevy?
DW
I know that Stan - still, just how much aero is there available on a '38 Chevy?
DW
I know that Stan - still, just how much aero is there available on a '38 Chevy?
DW
I would take extra care in making sure the "aero" I add is not working against what I have in the first place...Racers tend to out smart themselves a lot..........JD
WOW Kevin must have one sharp pocket knife :-D Looks real good. Can't wait to see the finished assembly.
Decent! Love the callipygian front fenders. 8-)
:cheers: :cheers: What color are you thinking about???
The prognosis?
Well, the rods and crank will finally be here next week, so I'm forecasting extreme stress, work filled sleepless nights, followed by extreme anxiety, more work filled sleepless nights, and one empty bank account!
Looks like some sort of Mopar.
:wink:
Ain't that the truth, Chris? HAMB drags are on the 20th, so randy and I are going to beet feet back and run the Dodge, his blown 'T', and the FlatCad at the drags!
Car came out of the paint booth this morning, so pics to follow!
In the mean time, we're thrashing on the FlatCad, trying to get it together. We were going to 'spilt' the siamesed center exhaust, but we're running out of time.
What I'm looking for is a pair of 3-1 collectors, with 2 -2", and one 2.5" inlets.
Anyone here do that type of work?
You might try Burns Stainless for your exhaust stuff.
Unfortunately,no one carries a collector like I need. I'll have to have it custom built.
Try "Header Bob" McDonald: www.cppexhaust.com
He's in NC (704) 622-8280
Does your wife know that you took her plant trellis for the project? Tony
What color is that red?! If my Tudor is not black it may be a dark red.
Roses, Zenndog, Roses!What color is that red?! If my Tudor is not black it may be a dark red.
The pic is decieving, Trent. It was cloudy out, but the color is bright red. In fact, it's called 'Bright Red'! It's just an enamal paint.
Years ago I painted my '72 El Camino Viper red. Best red I have ever used. Give it a look when making your choice.
Oh yeah, I painted the Rally wheels yellow. Only three peopl liked the wheels, the guy I paid, the painter and me. I did get a bunch of thumbs up though. Joanie gave me so much flack that I ended up repainting the wheels body color.
DW
Buddy, are you going to the HAMB drags in August?
Buddy, are you going to the HAMB drags in August?
Question here:
I'm figuring out some of the oil system plumbing. Do I need to run an oil filter system?
If so, should the filter be before the oil enters the pump, going to the engine, or after (this,I would think) the pump, on the return side?
Thanks in advance!
I'm going to use a filter- just seems like a good idea, especially since I don't have an air filter!
Buddy, I usually drink Bud Light, however, when it's free I'll drink about any kind. We will probably have the slowest ETs of the meet.
Love that number -- is that the firing order?Yes Stan. Yes it is. :-P Wayno
Stan
Love that number -- is that the firing order?
Stan
Buddy,
With both the intake and exhaust ports on the same plane out the top of the block you really do have a "packaging problem". Your first try looks pretty good but I still wouldn't want to check the plugs if the engine was hot!! Please tell me that you are going to at least cut off the
extensions and put some short turn backs to get rid of the "tractor puller" look. Man you have lots of stuff to get done in the next 3 weeks! Hope to see you in August.
Rex
I sure hope your crank shows up- otherwise you might have to take a lap in the '38 and drink beer with us! :cheers:
Well, I've dreaded writing this, but I must.
Here is the plan.
The work will continue on the FlatCad, with the goal being WOS.
Pete has graciously offered the use of his 350, from his hotrod. I'm working on trying to get it from Elbe, Wa., to Columbus, OH., at the moment. If anyone is going this way, please holler at us!
We'll drop the SBC in the car, and head to Bonneville. We'll be able to get the car teched,shake the car down, and make our licensing runs. If everything works out, we'll be back with the FlatCad for WOS.
Sorry, but this is the only way I know how to post pics!
Buddy, I see in the results, they have you in XXO class, not TO, what's up with that.He originally entered XXO and the SCTA data entry didn't pick up the change. Who cares? No harm - no foul
Sounds like you had a lot of fun. Tony
If you stayed at the starting line and watched every car run, you'd of only seen about 25% of them. I'm surprised Tman found as many as he did as he didn't really know what most looked like. That's the thing -- it's getting bigger every year. Bigger than just the increase in entries which was negligible this year. With four courses it's spread even farther.
I need to figure out how to lock reverse out on the Muncie M-21. I'll look at it tomorrow. Anyone know the easiest way to do this?
I'm still trying to figure the best place to relocate the front shocks, to get them inside of the front sheet metal.
Chris, lever shocks may work, depending on if they can be made VERY stiff. I've got 12/12 shocks on it now, for very little movement. I'm not a big fan of very much suspension movement, at the speeds the car will run.
As I remember the heaver viscosity oil the stiffer the shock action.
MM;
"I am not a number, I am a free man!" .....from "The Prisoner", right?
Regards, Neil (San Deigo, CA)
The roadster guys 'ave a neat trick--they mount flat bar that attaches behind the front axle in its wind shadow, and pivitos on the chassis behind the grill shell and a spring shock mounts vertically in the center of the car left side springs the right side ect.
[/quote
Would like to see a picture of this set-up if any one has one.
Richard
Rich--I presume the torsion bar itself is inside the top frame tube? I will have to fab something a bit different, but a good idea, Rich......PS; Mike...The raffle tickets WERE in my wallet, and I did have the winning ticket.......OH WELL... :? :-DThat's OK Paul. You can wallow in the fact that you were a winner and helped a great cause. Perhaps you can wrest some comfort from the fact that I had a P-38 Porter reserved for you but as usual, we never met up. Perhaps next time............. :cheers: Wayno
1) The window tabs are huge and ugly- gonna change that!
2) The front frame horns have to go! (thanks Rex!)
3) tuck the shocks back behind the sheet metal! (thanks Rex!)
4) Change the exhaust-possibly/probably to the upper back side of the open tire (Thanks Sparky!)
5) rework a little intake porting, and get the block bench flowed.
6) depending on bench flow numbers, possibly a new cam
7) Try and get all sheet metal in front of the cowl, and below the hood replaced, for better aero ( you listening, John Kimbrough??!! I need your help!)
8 Fill tranny and rear end crossmembers with lead. I'd like to get rid of our weight bar rack. Probably add some lead to the frame, also.
9) Go through the Quick change. We found aluminum filings in it.
10) mount the 'chute up on the trunk, and get rid of the huge pushbar we have.
11) move the engine cooling tank to the rear ( Thanks Stan!)
12) install a small fan for the driver, for when he has to wait in the car.
PS; Mike...The raffle tickets WERE in my wallet, and I did have the winning ticket.......OH WELL... :? :-D
We ordered head gaskets .010 too thin, so I'll have to order some more.
Here are some pictures of the front crankshaft snout support - will give you a good idea what the '4th main' is all about.
Hi guys!
Well, the machine shop is done with the engine, but now so is the bank account!
Thanks guys!
I keep wanting to fix things in FRONT of the tires- guess everyone is right- I AM back asswards! :-D
Buddy -
Every single piece you bring to this build is just mindboggling. This is like building a Tomahawk missile out of a flintlock.
I can't wait to hear it!
One of the concerns I have is the cam selection. There really isn't any info out there on these engines, so the selection we made is really the proverbial 'shot in the dark'.
When I was on the salt, I was able to speak to several guys running vintage engines. The name Dema Elgin came up time and time again.I just had a long talk with Dema, about engine details, our goals for the engine, etc.
To make a long story short, we're going to ship the cam and a couple of lifters to Dema. He's going to plot it against his recommendation, and let us know where we are. I have another blank, so if it's needed, he'll grind us another cam.
Buddy,
Put the parts you have together and get the motor on a dyno. Work with what you have. You will learn a lot. Second motors are always better than the first one, but it takes the first one to learn from. R&D isn't cheap, but you always learn from the past.
Flow benches are nice don't get me wrong, but just because you get more air flow does not equate to usable HP and torque. .
Tom,
What you say makes sense, and is the feeling of several of my team mates. I guess I want to achieve perfection, and in reality, that won't happen!
Car to share the head design that allows for flow over the valves? Email me pics, maybe? :-D
Buddy,
Put the parts you have together and get the motor on a dyno. Work with what you have. You will learn a lot. Second motors are always better than the first one, but it takes the first one to learn from. R&D isn't cheap, but you always learn from the past.
Flow benches are nice don't get me wrong, but just because you get more air flow does not equate to usable HP and torque. .
Tom, there is validity to you point, and on an engine that can be readily had, or had more of a racing pedigree, I'd agree with you.
My disagreement is tactical.
Last week, the Montana Dodge Boys build gave out before they could turn it around to back up a record.
Gary and Mikes Straight 8 Buick also comes to mind - they windowed the block on the dyno, and then again on the salt.
In all three cases, Flattie's included, we're talking about vintage castings, all of which are getting harder to source, and despite prep and cautions, are working well beyond their design parameters. They simply may not have that many passes in them, and a second motor, at least with respect to engines like this, becomes increasingly expensive to build.
IMO - and it's opinion, nothing more - tactically, I'd plan on getting only four runs out of it - a dyno day, a pass for class, a run and a back-up. At that point, ALL other runs are bonuses. In short, you need to achieve the goal before you wear it out.
In order to do that, it's got to be right, and right out of the box. True, a flow bench doesn't guarantee more HP, but it can reveal mistakes and aid in proper cam design and header sizing for the particular application before you ever turn it over.
I've said "It's all a grand experiment", but a successful experiment minimizes the variables.
I think flow benching should remain on the table.
So there - two ways to skin a cat.
That's 4 cents I'm up to - this is breaking my race budget . . .
Geesh. . . . . . . I get 2 runs on my GMC then its tear down time; that's why I unload it ready to qualify if I can.
Joe and I never got more than 2 in a row with the pan off in impounds everytime. We made 3 runs for five years straight but the head and pan were off after the first one, once with 11 bad valves.
Hey my son wanted a "hat" (and I didn't even have one)........................JD
I found a lot of info on posting but none on vintage steel blocks like we are using. Tony, what are you using for posts and sealer?
Buddy, that engine is looking great! Keep up the great work. Tony
Chris, one shock is significantly bigger than the other two-what's the application difference?
I like the idea of the wider clearance on bearings, with the thought being if more oil passes over the bearing surface, it will carry away more heat. Oil pressure may not be as great, but will still be plenty and the actual oil film will be cooler. I think 20-50w is fine in the trans. I still run 90W in my QC
Sparky, That makes since. I'm guessing then, since they turn, they must be attached by a verticle rods, allowing them to pivot?
Ok, guys, we have two different schools of thought going here. hopefully, you guys can weigh in with some experience/opinions.
One of us feels that .00175-.0002 rod clearance is sufficient, and prefers a light weight oil like Royal Purple XPR 5-30w.
The other of us thinks .0025-.00275 is necessary for the rods, and prefers a heavier oil-20-50 weight.
Same thing on the tranny and QC rear end. One of us feels the traditional 80/90w, or 90-140w is necessary, and the other thinks a good synthetic 20-50w engine oil is sufficient.
What do you guys use, and what are your opinions on this?
I like the idea of the wider clearance on bearings, with the thought being if more oil passes over the bearing surface, it will carry away more heat. Oil pressure may not be as great, but will still be plenty and the actual oil film will be cooler. I think 20-50w is fine in the trans. I still run 90W in my QC
I'm with yah Rich! I keep trying to tell Buddy that "Bigger is Better"
I read up a little on Hardblok and it says it is not possible to remove it..... I reckon three beers and the taco that I had at the Motel 29 Palms on "Free Taco Night" could get it out, trust me. :oops:
On a more serious note, you blokes are up for anything yeah?.... Buddy, finish that flatcad before you confuse us with more exotica, I'm kind of boggled by the whole build already.....at what point does the balance sheet tip on developing that lump? :evil: :evil: :evil:
No, you don't have to even start explaining.......
I read up a little on Hardblok and it says it is not possible to remove it..... I reckon three beers and the taco that I had at the Motel 29 Palms on "Free Taco Night" could get it out, trust me. :oops:
On a more serious note, you blokes are up for anything yeah?.... Buddy, finish that flatcad before you confuse us with more exotica, I'm kind of boggled by the whole build already.....at what point does the balance sheet tip on developing that lump? :evil: :evil: :evil:
No, you don't have to even start explaining.......
Haha! The Flatcad is in the final assembly stages, being readied for the dyno!
There are a couple of reasons I'm toying with this idea for the second engine:
1) More Power! Better airflow, more efficient roller cam, bigger bore (sleeves) and shorter stroke, for a more powerful, higher revving engine.
2) Procharger style supercharger- less parasitic drag, lower profile, more ponies!
Why do I want this, when I plan on eventually putting the Jimmy engine in the car for a few runs?
It's simple- I want to get as much HP out of this old flathead that I can. On top of that, the current Flatcad was built with a 'traditional' look in mind. Unfortunately, that 'traditional' look will make it virtually impossible to fit the mill in a lakester or liner. A more powerful mill, with a low profile, could be installed.
...and I would really like to see one of my Flatcads run in a lakester or liner!
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/saltracer1/DSC03193.jpg)
Hoping to do something similar with a good old flathead Ford block and reroute exhaust too. this cross section shows the original intake ports and a new small exhaust port drilled with hole saw. Phil
There are a couple of reasons I'm toying with this idea for the second engine.
I want to get as much HP out of this old flathead that I can.
Ron main was able to get over 700hp from the Ford flathead, although he ran at far less hp than that.
Glen, I thought I checked, and wheel fairings were legal in comp coupe? I'll look it up again.
Rex, you bring up a good point about the fairings turning into wind vanes. What would you suggest? I like the idea of an axle cover, and I'm going to explore that idea.
We could make this more aerodynamic, by smoothing everything from the grill to the cowl, but we would lose some of the '38 'look'. It will cost us some aero, but I want the ability to put the fenders on from time to time, and keep that 'look'.
We'll smooth things out, while doing a balancing act to maintain the overall look it has now.
Pinkees Rod Shop, in Windsor, CO., has agreed to sponsor us! :cheers:
I know they are legal in comp coupe, I said roadsters and lakesters. :-o
Pinkees owner, Eric, will be making side panels, to cover the open area normally covered by the fenders. We planned it out this morning, so that the panels would transition from the 'fade away' area, to flush in the front. This way, I can still run fenders when I want.
Throw those ideas out here about the front tires- I'm all ears. Ideally, I would go with a straight axle, but then I would need 13" tall tires, to maintain the same stance height.
I think for all the hassle I would clean up some stock fenders aero wise and bolt them back on.
Buddy, I will elaborate some later. This was just a teaser!
Rex, you and Sr Bernoulli are both right and wrong. :?
Rich, I'm trying to find something like what your talking about, but no luck so far.
Trent, I'm talking about using something like that. One fender, though, won't cover the tire sufficiently- it will take two grafted together.
C I'm simply going to have the 90 deg turn milled off of the block,port the bejeebers out of it, and weld a new intake/exhaust flange back in place.
... My long term plan to 'straighten' out the ports, is in post #706...Looking at post#706, I would have said that you've removed 45` of the original 135`, leaving a nominal 90` port runner. What am I missing?
... My long term plan to 'straighten' out the ports, is in post #706...Looking at post#706, I would have said that you've removed 45` of the original 135`, leaving a nominal 90` port runner. What am I missing?
Nothing Jack- you're correct. I won't be able to totally straighten out the ports with milling- it will take some porting, epoxy, and even then, it won't be perfect.
I do expect a dramatic flow difference, though. Only one way to find out......
Haha! Tony, I'm just not smart enough to quit flogging this worthless pony!
Buddy those ports are pretty fugly! :| I'll be like the guy with the glass eye and keep an eye for them! :-D
I'll display my ignorance- are those manifolds to fit "any old" Cad flat V8 or just those modified like yours?
Isn't over thinking what most of us as racers specialize in??? :roll: :roll: :roll:
Pete
Can a tire like the Goodyear D1445, at 2.5" width be used? I can't find anything that tells me if they will handle the weight.
... think Harley KR chambers...Stock KR chambers are, um, quite mundane; unless there's some "massaged" form that you're referring to? While keeping the original gasket-outline on the Kohler head surfaces, I managed to undercut barrel shapes around the walls of the valve pockets- for maximum flow improvement with minimal chamber volume increase. I ground radius-end toolbits for the offset boring head of my manual mill, for more consistent results than hand-die-grinding (although consistency would be much more important for a multi-cylinder like yours, than for a one-lunger). I just wish that my customers had followed through with flowbench time to science-out the seat area details; I suspect there's much to be learned there.
You don't need a block to flow a head. If you have access to a junk block cut one cylinder out of it. Skill saws work great with a cutoff saw blade, don't ask how I know. LOL.
But now I will throw a curve-ball out. Since you are supercharged, pressurize the intake, your results may vary from typical suction in a cylinder. Just something to think about.
Tom G.
Hey Tom . . . how the hell are yah! Are you by chance going to make it to Bonneville this summer - would be great to see you again . . . has been about 20 years. Let me know and we'll be sure to hook up. We are planning to go to El Mirage in the spring - will keep you posted on that as well. Who the hell would think I'd end up in Ohio - just so I could get back to racing on the West Coast. But Hell . . . we now have the 'Wilmington Mile' -- out my way . . . gives us some new possibilities!
As far as the ports go -- given that we're blown, the supercharger can overcome a lot of 'flathead sins' . . . the more port volume the better for what we're doing.
Dale
Not as long as the Buicks, but still pretty long rods!
Not as long as the Buicks, but still pretty long rods!
What kind of rod to stroke ratio are you at?
Tom, Lately, I've seen deck height mention two different ways
.
What I call deck height is crank centerline to the block deck. That is 13.15" :-o
The other reference to deck height I've seen is the space between the piston dome and the combustion chamber, at top dead center, without a head gasket. is this called "compression Height"?
That distance is approximately -.024"- -.020", with squish being .036"-.040", with a .060 copper head gasket. I say approximately, because we just had the heads and pistons coated, and installed the pistons. Dale has not yet had a chance to measure everything, after the coating and installation.
Well, I always thought compression height was from the centerline of the crank, to the top of a piston, if its a flat top, or the point on a piston where it starts to curve, if it's a dome piston.
However, with the recent articles I've read, I no longer understand what is being called what! :?
Well, I had the wind taken out of my sails today!
Chris had made a prototype head chamber, so that Joe Abbin could do the initial flow test.
Garry Odbert has been porting and testing his Caddy flathead, and getting 185-187 CFM at .500 lift, with a stock head, with the valve pockets cut to allow .500 lift. Garry offered to flow our head, for comparison.
Here are the numbers-intake side at .100 lift 64cfms lift, @.200- 123cfm, .300-150cfm, 400-163cfm, .450-166cfm, and .500-166cfm.
Garry reported a good, smooth airflow, which was about the only positive news!
In addition to disappointing flow, Garry did a dye test, and it looks like fuel is all in one 2'' spot, centered over the exhaust valve, unlike some heads, we placed the spark plug over the intake valve! Garry is going to send a pic this evening.
So, I'm pretty confident that no matter what the engine does on the dyno, we've left some HP out of the engine. Garry's port are not identical to ours, but that is only part of the equation.
We'll get it on the dyno, but I'll still be feeling disappointed in not getting more testing done prior to getting parts made. Ideas are good, but I'm kicking myself for not doing more testing! I'm definitely going to look at other piston/head options, for a major redo this fall.
I'm not sure how a KR translates into another engine.
The KR has both valves tilted in toward the bore as they approach the deck, but not as much as some automotive engines.
KR valves are also both inclined to the bore in the thrust axis by 4-1/2°, which sinks their seats in the wrong direction: against port flow. IMHO much of the development work was to cure this, especially the complex 3-dimensional shape between the valve reliefs near the bore.
Buddy, the RED ones are the ones you want.
Hard to believe - but Tony, I've finally seen something sexier than your avatars on these boards.
Buddy, Dale - That's ONE BEAUTIFUL ENGINE!
We can swap the lower-upper pulleys and switch over to a 48 driving 53 pulley setup, but if we want to run a larger upper pulley during breakin, we'll need a longer belt.
Thanks for the two-piece head education. Wow... somebody's better with a manual mill than I am! :-D :-DYou took the words right out of my mouth regarding the rigidity of the "plate on pillars." You could stiffen it up by replacing the "pillars" with a rigid rectangular plate on each side with three holes for the bolts.
The snout support will undoubtedly help. With some foresight (or glancing at well-engineered ones) though, it could help much more; not much rigidity to a "plate on pillars". Just my two cents...
The snout support will undoubtedly help. With some foresight (or glancing at well-engineered ones) though, it could help much more; not much rigidity to a "plate on pillars". Just my two cents...
We can swap the lower-upper pulleys and switch over to a 48 driving 53 pulley setup, but if we want to run a larger upper pulley during breakin, we'll need a longer belt.
Longer belt?......... what are ya gonna get , a conveyor belt?
Buddy,
That thing is a beast!!! Pretty, but a real beast. If it runs half as good as it looks you will make tons of HORSE POWER!!
Rex
... replacing the "pillars" with a rigid rectangular plate on each side...Lateral stiffness is nearly as important as vertical. There appears to be enough elbow-room to enhance both.
Great looking engine and work,can't wait to see and hear it at Bville.
Is part of the breakin for the cam and solid lifters? there should be little or no boost at a steady rpm untill
you put a load on egine or blip the throttle.
JL222
That engine is impressive looking. Tower of power.
... the cam pattern was designed for a 1.260 lifter diameter, so I had to turn the bases of all of them down ...??? :? If the lobes care whether the foot diameter is "too large", then the lobe design is fubar. I could understand, if you needed to cut them down for clearance to block or whatever?
... the cam pattern was designed for a 1.260 lifter diameter, so I had to turn the bases of all of them down ...??? :? If the lobes care whether the foot diameter is "too large", then the lobe design is fubar. I could understand, if you needed to cut them down for clearance to block or whatever?
Great looking engine and work,can't wait to see and hear it at Bville.
Is part of the breakin for the cam and solid lifters? there should be little or no boost at a steady rpm untill
you put a load on egine or blip the throttle.
JL222
Yes, I want to get the cam and lifters broke in good, before we add too much load.
SSS,
You bring up a good point and I should have clarified my post. Back in 1972 I built a boat motor with a 6-71 GMC supercharger but it had no teflon strips in it, and it ran fine with out the blower belt hooked up, and that is how I broke my cam in on that motor. A screw blower should work also as there is no friction on the case the way they are made.
I don't have any experience with a GMC blower set up with teflon, so they may not turn as free because of the friction of the teflon against the case, so someone else will have to chime in on that type of set up.
I guess you could say the rule of thumb would be if you can spin the blower with you hand, the motor should run without the blower belt. This would be for a blower mounted on top of the motor. Others types that have 10 feet of intake tract might not work.
Tom G.
38- If you ever feel like trying it....call your tooling supplier and ask for ceramic cutting inserts for "hard turning", they cut hardened material just like it is regular steel. It is crazy to watch, like a welder throwing sparks, no cutting fluid is used, just dry. These A2-5 spindle noses were cut by hard turning, hardened first, then machined. Can't remember the hardness off the top of my head, good thing I have it written down, 86L20 Steel, heat treated 60 rockwell.
I've been busy trying to get the changes done on the car, and looking for good aero mods. I want them to work, and at the same time, I want them to have the 'vintage' look.
I've settled on a modified version of fairings like the Lockhart car had.
,
I've been busy trying to get the changes done on the car, and looking for good aero mods. I want them to work, and at the same time, I want them to have the 'vintage' look.
I've settled on a modified version of fairings like the Lockhart car had.
,
I don't know if or how this would apply to LSR, but Forbes Aird discusses front wheel fairings in Aerodynamics for Racing and Performance Cars. Topic is stability at speed, CP needs to be behind neutral steer point for better stability in cross winds and to be self correcting if vehicle starts to get sideways. Additional side area at the rear is good, at the front is murder, and gets worse if the side area is steerable. Steerable front wheel pants banned by NHRA. This might bear looking into.
... Steerable front wheel pants banned by NHRA...I don't know current-era NHRA rules. Is that rule worded so that full wheel discs (both inboard and outboard) are legal? What about a fixed-to-a-spindle inboard disc whose periphery sits in close proximity to a wheel's rim?
Buddy,
RCD makes a belt you might be able to use.
Tom G.
1312-2000-075 is their part number.
2000-8M-75 POWER GRIP RUBBER (250T, 78.7 X 3) BLOWER BELT $259.00
On the blower setup is it possible to change the smooth idler to a toothed idler pulley? A toothed idler gives the best protection against cord damage and can lead to longevity of the belt. Do not get me wrong smooth idlers may work ok but the bend over the apex of the curve can lead to issues (possible not definitive).
Jon
On the blower setup is it possible to change the smooth idler to a toothed idler pulley? A toothed idler gives the best protection against cord damage and can lead to longevity of the belt. Do not get me wrong smooth idlers may work ok but the bend over the apex of the curve can lead to issues (possible not definitive).
Jon
Thanks Jon! Putting a small, toothed idler may be the way to go. I didn't even think about wear "over the apex of the curve". This would also allow for a shorter belt, and therefore be a win-win situation! :cheers:
On the blower setup is it possible to change the smooth idler to a toothed idler pulley? A toothed idler gives the best protection against cord damage and can lead to longevity of the belt. Do not get me wrong smooth idlers may work ok but the bend over the apex of the curve can lead to issues (possible not definitive).
Jon
Thanks Jon! Putting a small, toothed idler may be the way to go. I didn't even think about wear "over the apex of the curve". This would also allow for a shorter belt, and therefore be a win-win situation! :cheers:
It's looking great Dale, but I still think we need some duct tape and bailing wire.... :-D
Now that I have your drive design completed, can I get a few more pieces of information. My data and dimensions are showing a tad different then you are coming up with. Need a few more informational pieces from you.
How much power does it take to drive your blower.
What is the operating RPM range you intend to run.
Please provide the belt number you are running in the pictures you had of engine. This irrelevant to what I am doing I just want to know the part number for my own reference.
Thanks for the drive layout pictures those were very helpfull.
Lastly, please describe your tensioning procedures when you setup your belt.
Jon
Oh, Woody- I use Duct tape, not Duck tape- I hear it's good for at least 50 MPH more! :-D
The reason Jon is asking for HP because the more horsepower you put through the belt the more tension you need. I've used a free Gates program called DesignIQ for figuring out belt lengths and such, they have more complicated free programs for also figuring out required tension and resultant belt stretch that you might want to look into too. It sounds like you already have a good resource for information but I thought I'd let you know.
A while back I asked RCD how they do it and they said they just tighten the hell out of it… Helpful, very helpfull
How much power does it take to drive your blower. I have no idea! It's a teflon stripped, race prepped 6-71. I may be able to get you a better answer after the dyno,but then again-maybe not!
Thanks for looking at this, and offering your expert opinion!
Oh, Woody- I use Duct tape, not Duck tape- I hear it's good for at least 50 MPH more! :-D
The reason Jon is asking for HP because the more horsepower you put through the belt the more tension you need. I've used a free Gates program called DesignIQ for figuring out belt lengths and such, they have more complicated free programs for also figuring out required tension and resultant belt stretch that you might want to look into too. It sounds like you already have a good resource for information but I thought I'd let you know.
A while back I asked RCD how they do it and they said they just tighten the hell out of it… Helpful, very helpfull
Woo-hoo!!!
We're going to be on the 2012 Salt Talks tee shirt-looks like I paid our way to infamy! :evil:
Pontiac Jack and Jack Gifford are the same guy?
DW
Why two different identities? What is trying to hide, Stan?
We need a conspiracy thread.
DW
More fuel for the fire. remember, the Surfers DID NOT use a tensioner, they put the belt on and "pried the rear of the blower down to tension it. Sometimes we think too hard about this Subaru.
Dale, it looks great, and looks like everything will work great on the dyno!
...but, it appears the whole setup may not work in the car! I wish I had a better pic, but I don't. Look at the frame in relationship to the engine mount.
Haha! I think we just have to own up to the fact, that we forgot to take measurements when we had it in there!
At work, we call these oversights 'job security'. The boss calls them our 'last warning'! Lol!
There is nothing boring about this build or what you guys are posting! Tony
Haha! I think we just have to own up to the fact, that we forgot to take measurements when we had it in there!
At work, we call these oversights 'job security'. The boss calls them our 'last warning'! Lol!
I hear yah - this is just how building race cars goes - always another hurdle to overcome! We may have to think about mounting the dry sump and injector pumps off of the timing cover (it is designed for this). Might be able to leave the goofy water pump running off the 8mm belt drive and bracket I made. I'm not even sure it will pump enough volume - we'll find out. Using the timing cover is very typical stuff - many guys run them this way.
We'll know when you get the beast back in your town . . . try and adjust is the name of the game!
Like I told you Sunday, Dale: You just modify the modified modification [after the last revision]. :cheers:
Adapt or perish! :-o
Garry did some more flow work with our head. We had 166 CFM with a .050 head gasket. Garry then used a .10 head gasket, and got 172 CFM flow. After a little work on the transfer area, and the .10 head gasket, flow went to 188 CFM. Garry just surpassed 200 CFM on his engine.
So, it appears with a little more work to the transfer area, we can get the flow up, and use our .072 gaskets! :-D
B & S...........M A R V E L O U S report.
You are to be commended on your posts.
FREUD
Buddy and Dale,
Best of luck on the dyno. Anyone willing to take a guess at the HP this beast will make. My guess is 550-600 HP depending on boost.
Tom G.
. . . helps keep me going to hear that others are willing to read by babble!
What a thrash!!! Now for the test, putting this thing on the dyno is really going to be an experience, my bet is that it will not be a one day affair. Dyno testing with this motor has to be done in very planned steps, I hope you have a plan. To much invested to just fire it up and "pull the handle"! Having gone through many start ups, large machine tools, hydraulic systems, race cars and engines I can tell you that there will be some surprises and challenges but well designed and fabricated projects, like the Flat Cad, will be successful in the end. As one of my favorite sayings goes:
"When you learn by experience, the test comes first and the lesson comes next" here's hoping that your "experiences" are all good and your testing is successful. Can't wait to hear the results.
Rex
(glad I made it purdy!)
(glad I made it purdy!)
Don't worry Dale- I believe in equality, so I've been busy with a grinder, and BIG hammer! :-D
38flattie, Looking at your pictures. It looks like there is alot of aluminum between the blower and the engine. Will you have to allow for vertical growth on your blower belt tension?
Richard
Should work like an auto tensioner....
The following days off, I'll get all the electrical wired, do the SCTA inspection, so that I'm ready for El Mirage, load the car, and head west!
No excuses this time!
You have an excellent attitude about quality.
FREUD
Video, video, video!
We won't believe anything without video! :mrgreen:
Mike
The beast lives! :cheers:
We fired the engine, and she sounds like a SNOTTY BITCH- I expect bid numbers, flathead wise!! We have a mechanical water pump issue, and will substitute an electrical water pump in the morning.
Serious dyno work will commence tomorrow, once Don, Carl, and Jim join us!
G'night!
Still taking it easy-second run with 7lbs boost was 351 hp and 434 torque!
We are a LONG ways from the engines potetial!
I'm thinking that Reply 1049 of 487 HP was someone's guess in the pool rather than a pull (?).
Guys, we just saw 496 hp @5000 rpm, with a LOT of hp still available!
You can only imagine what Dale and I are feeling at the moment!
Beck's dyno is known to read way to the high side.So are his timing slips. :cheers: Wayno
:cheers:
DW
Just going back through the build, you were looking for "north of 450".
487?
I say "Bullseye".
Well done, guys. :cheers:
Looking forward to additional reports.
Trent, Buddy sent me two video clips to post -- but before I try that -- are they (probably) the one or two that are already up? The fist frame looks the same to me and I won't put it up if it's just a duplicate.
In the meantime -- unh, mmm, did I guess pretty danged close or what? :cheers: :cheers:
Stan, Chris, Trent- thanks for getting those posted!
We'll have more when we get home and figure the cameras out!
Buddy and Dale,
Best of luck on the dyno. Anyone willing to take a guess at the HP this beast will make. My guess is 550-600 HP depending on boost.
Tom G.
hopfully next year they will bring it back and we can put some fuel in it!!
We kept at it, until we reached the 570 HP, 544 ft/lbs torque, at 5500 and 14.2 PSI boost.
Buddy and Dale,
Best of luck on the dyno. Anyone willing to take a guess at the HP this beast will make. My guess is 550-600 HP depending on boost.
Tom G.
Buddy and Dale,
Congratulations I never had a doubt about the HP numbers, as that is the easy part. Keeping the motor together for the runs required is another story. You have all the HP you need, now just concentrate on reliability and you will set a lot of records. I am very happy for you, it has been a great journey so far, I wish you the best at Bonneville this year.
Tom G.
When you turn the pump, you can feel the vanes rubbing, so I have to believe there is some damage, even though there was no metal in the filter.
When you turn the pump, you can feel the vanes rubbing, so I have to believe there is some damage, even though there was no metal in the filter.I believe the Barnes pump stages are gear driven - if you feel rubbing/binding, then there is probably something fubared with the shaft . . . guess we'll find out. They assembled it - would have been nice if they actually used lock washers, lock-tight, etc . . . obviously the bolts to the water pump didn't do the trick! :-o
x2 what Sparky said, I would also pin the caps and accommodate for a slide hammer to pull the caps, this is what we did with the GMC. Tony
45 deg side bolts into the main caps from the std girdle? I would look at compression instead of tension
x2 what Sparky said, I would also pin the caps and accommodate for a slide hammer to pull the caps, this is what we did with the GMC. Tony
x2 what Sparky said, I would also pin the caps and accommodate for a slide hammer to pull the caps, this is what we did with the GMC. Tony
Hey - I like the 'ghost main' girdle - is it made out of aluminum or steel? I'd like to see what you think about one material versus another - would seem to me that materials with the same/similar expansion rates would be ideal --> steel girdle on cast-iron block, aluminum girdle on an aluminum block.
Block Structural Strength: My best guess is that the overall structural strength of the block itself will be our limiting factor (from a rotating assembly perspective). If the pan rails and main stud threads and block structure can handle the horsepower, then we'll be okay - if they can't, then we have another whole set of issues to ponder (and I have some interesting structural augmentation design ideas along that line :roll:).
Cylinder Pressure and Deck: An area where we're probably more at risk is the overall strength of the cylinder walls - just how much pressure can they take??? Who knows! Block filling and staking may help - but that needs to be done before boring (need to review my sonic testing numbers for cylinder wall thickness). Also, we'll need to see what the heads and the deck are doing . . . the deck itself could be another major issue for higher HP and boost.
Dale
Hi 38'
Back in the early fueler days Milodon made a 1" thick steel girdle that bolted to the pan rails and center cross bars held the 3 center main caps, with a little pre load on the fly cut top surface of the cap.
That might help your block, but you still have a 3 main crank that is only going to take so much load before it breaks.
My 2 c worth
Don
Well first off, congratulations on some pretty impressive numbers. What is frightening is that you are doing it with only 3 mains.
Frightening? I prefer 'dangerously exciting', or 'tantalizingly nerve wracking'! Lol!
But I’d check to see if there is a problem first.-Chris, with the HP I'm trying to achieve, I have to assume everything is a problem at this point, and can change that stance once we are convinced it's not.
Yeah, I know, you asked for "experienced advice" - would you settle for an outside the box thought?. Absolutely-Thanks!
I’d concentrate my efforts on the center – it’s the least supported.-I agree.
Can you machine a girdle with the center cap integrated - one piece - and splaying out parallel with the webs? That is a definite consideration, along with most of the suggestions above.
Outside the box. Why not tie the main girdle to the heads outside the block. With gathering bolts of some type.
Richard
Outside the box. Why not tie the main girdle to the heads outside the block. With gathering bolts of some type.
Richard
... Peak cylinder pressure occurs with the piston only about 11 -14 crank degrees past TDC, if you work that out geometrically the piston is only a fraction of an inch down...However, the force on the walls (pressure x area) is greatest with the piston (or more precisely, the top ring) a significant distance further down than that. And, the greatest bending moment on the walls is even further down yet.
... This method also does not... create a possible coolant leak path...In a dry-deck engine it would however create a coolant leak potential that wouldn't otherwise exist.
Hell buddy with that much left you should be able to punch it out at least .115....................... :cheers:
And to think this started out as a mild custom/hotrodded lasalle :-o
Roseville Carl
Buddy you might want to put some insulation on that header next to the dist. might get hot enough to melt something!!!!
Wayno, you guys stop by for a beer on your way through St.Geo. I am going down on Fri. AM. :cheers:I shall broach the subject with Buddy. :cheers: Wayno
Uh whats the latest Buddy????
I've been sidetracked, and pretty quite lately, so I thought I'd post an update.
I replaced some of the head studs, so that I could mount the blower restraint tabs. Unfortunately, the restrains are too tight. It looks as if I'll need to turn them around, so that they point towards the top of the block, and not the bottom. This means a couple of hours with a grinder, grinding some of the fins down so that the tabs fit flush.
Other things left are:
Modifying the tranny tunnel for the new tranny
mounting the fuel tank and plumbing the fuel
mounting the new pulley system
plumbing all the water
plumbing the oil and filters
exhaust
fabbing a new push bar/parachute mount.
154.628 in the 2-1\4. We're headed to impound!
Conservative tune with 9lbs boost.
The first run Dale did, I thought I smelled clutch, bo nobody else did. I suspect we had clutch slippage at the end.
Buddy, Don`t forget to choose a combination that you can adjust on. if a quickchange and a bunch of spur gears aren`t on the menu, stick to your 9inch and round up a few gearsets to take. As for the 3 Speed and Gear Vendors idea, well, I hope Dale can learn the shifting system. I still like the idea of a Tremec and a batch of ratios in the back....I believe it shifts like any other three speed which is the same as my truck around town where I don't use granny low or overdrive 5th. And then you flip a switch for Odrive. Millions built and people learned to use them. Why do you think Dale will have a problem?
The thing about the Liberty or the transmission in my Dodge is that when they are in fifth or sixth gear they are running through the cluster. And that has more drag than direct 3rd or 4th. The Ford top loader with the gear vendors OD runs through a planetary gear set for the Over drive. The transmission itself is in high and is running direct. So the question becomes which has the least drag and power loss? I don't know. I think it's the planetary gears. But I have nothing solid to back that up. Who has some real numbers they are willing to share? We could call Gear Vendors, but I think I know what they will say.
... I have a Halibrand Camp QC in the car...Umm... then why are you looking for a different ring/pinion set? What am I missing here? :?
... easy...So you'd need to do this on a chassis dyno- to simultaneously run the rear under load while attempting to not lose heat to the surrounding air. "Easy" is subject to different interpretations, I guess. Even then, the result will only be a ballpark figure, since there WILL BE heat conducted away (axles, housings, etc.) and temperatures will vary widely throughout the mass that sees a temperature increase.
... and no air cooling...
According to these sources a Hypoid (most popular third members) gear set is 92 to 96 percent efficient at power transmission. A spiral bevel (V-8 quick change) gear set and a single spur gear set are both 99 percent efficient. That makes a V-8 quick change 98.01 percent efficient . Tell me again why I should dump my quick change.
http://www.zakgear.com/Hypoid_worm.html
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Drive/Gear_Efficiency.html
Final gear was a 2.40 - with a 1 to 1 trans ratio and 28" tires.
5600 rpm on the last run, against the rev limiter. The last 2 runs, with a higher tune, ran less time in the 2-1/4 than I did on a lower tune.
The first run Dale did, I thought I smelled clutch, bo nobody else did. I suspect we had clutch slippage at the end.
More later, when I get things unpacked, and have arrived in Pennsylvania.
Buddy, great seeing you, Dale and the crew at Speed Week! Good on all ya'all! {Plural for ya'all!} :cheers: :cheers:
I thought about you when I saw this on a camper later - no one around so ??? :?
Captain, that's high praise coming from You.
You certainly favor your friends.
FREUD
Buddy and crew, I've followed your build since the beginning mostly because I own the '38 Buick that you mentioned as holding an ECTA record. You have done a hell of a job getting that brick to run that hard. The '38 has the original straight 8 in it w/ a blower. Fastest it ever ran was @ B'ville while it was devouring itself. No back up run no record. Hope you continue to do well. Bobby Minis
The engine sounded like an angry herd of water buffalo! So, we know the engine has a LOT of potential left, if we make the right tweaks to it this winter.
Wow, the car weighs about 600 lbs more than I thought!
The car is balanced very well though, considering we never had it on scales! Randy and I will bring the total weight to about 5000 lbs for next year. We may look at moving the rear ballast, if I can find some more used lead. I plan on adding some lead filled 'cross members' on both sides of the axle, and may even fill the axle cross member brace- this would move the weight directly over the rear axle.
What do you guys think?
Buddy, if you pass thru St. George I'll have a cold beer or two for you. :cheers:
Forgive me for asking what may seem obvious, but what do you think causes the need for constant re-torquing? Do the head gaskets continue to compress, or is it something else?
Steve.
... How would you guys go about plugging these passages?...You'll probably get lots of suggestions. Personally, I'd use a manual mill to "trim" each opening (heads and block decks) to geometric shapes (circles, etc.), for which individual aluminum plugs could be machined (CNC would be nice here, for polygons with radiused corners, etc.). Interference fit could be calculated to not worry about different thermal expansion rates of iron/aluminum. Somewhat tedious, but not as bad as some similar efforts that I've succeeded at.
As you can all tell - Buddy and I don't agree on everything . . . and that is perfectly okay! We're kind of a constant check and balance system for one another. He is entitled to his opinions -- me to mine. The dyno and the salt will settle some of our differences. :cheers:
B&S
" The only time I've seen folks knowingly give up horsepower is for consistency and/or reliability ."
AERO :? :? :-D
Hey Buddy are you guys going to be coming to Calif to do your dyno runs this year??
Oval lifters? Isn't that going to be expensive?$$$ Whats wrong with the key and slot design that has worked for some time?
Pete, when you first did those Caddy lifters in the pics, that was what we planned to do. I'm sure it would work fine for us, like it has on so many other engines.
Roller lifters cause more side load on the blocks than the radius lifters, so we wanted beefier blocks anyway, We decided rather that modifying a current lifter body, a new lifter body would be the way to go. Since we are making both, I really like the oval lifter idea! The CNC does the work, and every lifter and bore is exactly the same, unlike when drilling the blocks for the keys.
There must be something i am not seeing here. Why do you need a wire EDM to machine slots? Couldn't you grind them? If the lifter is to hard to mill. Or use an ELG?
The FlatCad made it into Hot Rod Magazine- congratulations!
The reference to Harman-Collins roller lifters is probably to the the ones that were sold about 1960 - 1963 (briefly marketed under the Schiefer name, I think in '63/64). I'll need to search old pieces to get a photo (I used them initially in my M/T hemi engine). They used custom-cast bronze sleeves in the lifter bores- the sleeves had slots on the bottom that the wheels travelled in to keep them aligned. The sleeves in turn had anti-rotation tie bars (across the valley). They didn't work for the loads in my engine (625 pounds-open springs), since the narrow wheels and small body diameter (~.600") severely limited their strength.
Darn plywood sure has gone up 24.00 per sheet for BC 3/8 for a shipping crate for the Flat Caddy stuff almost have the shipping crate done..
I assume this is the H-C lifter mentioned? (Ignore the pushrod seat which I made up).
Whups - didn't post the rod bearing. If you look at it, notice that it is wearing more on the sides then the center . . . my guess is that we're seeing some crankshaft deflection (remember 3 mains and 550+ HP). I'm going to review the rest of the rod bearings and talk to some of my expert crankshaft folks - I think we need some more clearance on the journals to handle the 3-main deflection/bending.
Here yah go:
Wow good good stuff ---which rods we you seeing more deflection on? The frt would be my guess!!
:cheers:
Take a look at the bearings - in pretty dang good shape. Maybe our 'priority main' oiling system kept them happy?
Even though we're running a dry sump and this beast has an extremely tall deck (8.75" rods), there was plenty of oil up in the pins, the skirts looked really good and the Akerly HTD rings showed a really consistent sealing surface all around.
B&D
Saltracer1, that's a darn good question! I was told, and under the impression that we were going to run coated bearings. I sent the cam bearings off to get coated, and was told that we would order coated SBC rod, and BBC mains, but I was not there when they were installed. I will be this time, and they will be coated.
Bored and Stroked,
Show us a picture of the crank. You obviously had some "smegma" caught in the no.5 bearing that machined the "oil groove".
Rex
The reason I asked about coating the bearings is because a couple of years ago I messed up one rod bearing that was already coated by Swain and I had to replace it with a uncoated bearing. Upon disassembly the coated bearings looked pretty good and the single uncoated looked not so good. Now they are not the same brand and this is from a blown flathead Ford using Scat rods with the small journals (Buick V6 size I believe). The uncoated single rod bearing has Clevite 77 1 on it and the others are 2KL C811 AM (came from Speedway with the crank and rods).(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/saltracer1/NEW%20Saltracer/rodbearings.jpg)
The part number on the one bearing is CB610-p. Phil
g) Oil: 0W - 50W Mobile 1 Racing oil
Buddy --
Let me know how much those hinges are worth. That may be my chance to regain the record -- I'm only 20 MPH short after having it four years ago.
Stan
I've been working with Cometic to get custom gaskets for The FlatCad, as I really dislike the copper gaskets.
We received the prototypes- They need a little refining, but this should help us out!
... We machined a wider surface to fit the new main caps...We would all like to be able to do that... but where did the extra material come from to machine? :?
Actually I like anyone who doesn't use their head for just a hat rack.........
OK, now that we have passed 12/21/12 - here is an idea.
If someone with a V12 Caddie - XXO/ .... wants to go 200+ why not take advantage of a streamliner/lakester chassis? Easy to work on and really close to 200 with 450HP.
There are plenty of chassis available with a crew looking for the "good" engine. This is where I would start if I was not lready involved.
My personal goal would be 200+. regardless of chassis.
300+ is the next step for me(?)
DW
Actually I like anyone who doesn't use their head for just a hat rack.........
Crossdrilling the crank is a good way to create a fatigue failure. Grooved main bearings are FAR better if you want the engine to live.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Happy 100 pages of Build Diary!!
Celebrate your accomplishment.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Hi 38'
Not up on flat cads, what bolts to those bolt bose's at the bottom of the barrel.
New caps looking very nice!!
Since they are alum do you have more bearing chrush to make up for more expansion then they get hot?
Me and my buddy put a MT alum rod under hot running water one time and it grew 2 thou!!
Don
... put a MT alum rod under hot running water one time and it grew 2 thou...Your "running water" isn't as hot as mine, since you only raised the rod temperature approximately 74 degrees F (assuming rod big end of 2.250"). Practically every wrought aluminum alloy (from 2014 of ancient M/T rods to latest proprietary alloys of BME, GRP, etc. rods) has a temperature coefficient of 1.2 x 10^(-5)inches/inch/degree F. +/- ~5%.
fordboy,
What a delight to read your posts, I learn new things from every one of them. Keep them coming!!
Nice looking snorkel & hood scoop but have you considered how far forward it moves your center of pressure?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
38flattie,
Attached is a .pdf with gearing charts for the FlatCad. There are 2 files which reflect the gearing as used in 2012, these 2 files show correction factors for the speed calculated Vs. the speed attained. Is it possible that you have as much as ~10% wheelspin/traction loss?
There are also 6 additional gear charts that have various changes such as rpm limit raised, diff ratio change, tire dia change, close ratio trans change, etc.
Within these scenarios it appears that the maximum rpm drop is ~ 1900rpm, close ratio OR wide ratio, dependent on the rpm limit used. It appears that the rpm drop could be as narrow as ~ 1600rpm, with the close ratio gearbox.
It would seem sensible then to modify/tune the engine for a workable powerband of ~ 1600rpm min. to ~ 2000rpm max. I would attempt to achieve this by modifying the aspect ratio of the torque curve. I would make changes that would rock/raise the curve from peak torque to peak bhp. Peak bhp definitely needs to be defined, OR, an rpm limit based on parts stresses needs to be defined........ and the engine modified/tuned respectively.
I am sure you will have some questions after looking over the charts. I am not so concerned about the predicted top speeds at this point in time, if only from the traction standpoint. I think that is important to have defined the minimum useable rpm range, in order to properly modify/tune the engine. More useable rpm range is better of course, as in flatter curves. But the fact of life is that as an engine's output goes up in bhp/cubic inch, the useable rpm range becomes more narrow.............
Edit: If you want to investigate other permutations, it is pretty easy to plug other numbers in to the program to see what rpm drops it spits out. I used the info off your build diary. Posts #1257, #1349 and some information you sent in a pm. Let me know if you want me to run the 2.32/1.69/1.29/1.00 setup, but the drops will be in between the 2 other setups.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Not a wing, spoiler by SCTA terminology. It looks OK to me, where is the precieved issue?
Wing has to stand off the body.
DW
Not a wing, spoiler by SCTA terminology. It looks OK to me, where is the precieved issue?
Wing has to stand off the body.
DW
Not a wing, spoiler by SCTA terminology. It looks OK to me, where is the precieved issue?
Wing has to stand off the body.
DW
Dan, when I designed the spoiler, I studied the rules, and I think it is okay, but I have a question. There is an open area at the front of the spoiler between the spoiler and the spill plate. I can not find anything in the rule book that says this area has to be filled in. Do you have any thoughts? I am going to look more at other designs tonight.
John
Well, If the hood scoop caused a ruckus, check out what the wing and spill plates will look like! :evil:
Website Head Handlebar Holder's comment:
Remember that this is an unofficial forum. Dan is welcome, of course, to offer his observations and help and such -- but a proper "ruling" must be sought and received through SCTA channels.
We on the Forum are, of course, very interested in how this wing/spoiler situation plays out -- but don't take Dan's comments here as the final word.
Right, Dan?
Edit: I forgot a letter.
I don't understand you are making the car more slippery, drip rails- door hinges etc but will create more drag with those new vertical filler pcs. Looks like a big air trap to me plus maybe mess up the airflow over your new rear spoiler
Why can't you bring that flat alum forward to the end of the body belt line bumps, and have a little longer side plates?
Don
Got the email and responded. The gap must be filled, only a single surface can be presented to the air with a spoiler design.
JL222 - the Comp Coupe wing rules are written as presented by Tom Burkland and George Fields. If you think the 6" above the top of the body is wrong argue with them.
I am off the the GNRS and any posting will be delayed for a couple of days.
DW
Can you narrow it up a bit so the bottom of the spill plates touch the side of the body to make the vertical face smaller without effecting their performance much?
jon
Can you narrow it up a bit so the bottom of the spill plates touch the side of the body to make the vertical face smaller without effecting their performance much?
jon
That would be the easy way and it would actually work. But lowering it down and back would give more area and downforce.
JL222
I'm glad you're happy with it -
I'm certain it will work well -
But gosh darn it, the lines on this car are just so sweet - especially the chop - I hate to see it have to go in this direction.
:cry:
Fugly or not, I think it looks way cool! Reminds me of what people in the forties thought a car would look like in the future! :-D I hope it all works so you can get a hat that will match that purdy car!
The stock lifters were hydraulic, and fed from the pressurized oiling system. Well add another pressure section to the dry sump, and dedicate it to the lifters, plugging the factory feeds out of the block.
COE :? cast has a reputation of not growing much
Another thought about linking the two sides of the block together, you might consider using a thick aluminum plate that picks up the 4 cast and machined lugs that the lifter carriers attach to and then machine the lifter bores into the plate. You would probably need a pair of plates one for the front and one for the rear but it would help (I think!) You could also use steel just to get the expansion rate the same, just takes longer to machine and adds some weight.
Rex
Don as you know in LSR you have to do it twice... :-D
Buddy, WZJunk,
I've been looking at the build pictures on the scoop and can't help but wonder a few things.
How was the design determined?
Why SO big?
The intake tube runs straight out and has a rounded base supporting it, 3"-4" above the hood?
Why not lose the base and suck that intake snout down to the hood, using slight bulges on either side working up to the height of the injector hat?
A big ramp with fairly flat sides doesn't look like it flows well.
It just seems like a lot more was added than what is needed, help me understand.
:cheers:
Dan
I was hoping someone would ask me, why I built such an odd piece.
John
Because you are an odd guy?! :-D
I was hoping someone would ask me, why I built such an odd piece.
John
Because you are an odd guy?! :-D
Basher, that was a typical quote butcher. Happens a lot with teh format here. I was shooting the odd quote back at John K, not you! :-D
Bored and Stroked,
An idea for making your vertical mounting bolt set up extra stiff and preloaded. As you have it now if you tighten the top nut you will pull up on the lifter blocks, if you tighten the middle nut you will push down on the lifter blocks and the problem, as I see it is that preloading in either direction will not preload the long bolts enough to keep them from stretching. Maybe you could remove the very bottom nut that locks the vertical stud to the lifter plate and then install a heavy wall tube over each of the studs, min. 1/4 inch wall. If you want a slight preload down on the lifter blocks you make the tube .001-.002 longer than the distance from the lifter plate to the upper block girdle plate, if you want the preload the other direction then you would make the tubes slightly shorter. Now once you have the tube the length you want, shorter or longer, you can torque the BFJ out of the vertical studs which will put them in stretch and preload them such that they will not stretch until the load exceeds the preload, which looking at your dwg will probably never happen. Just a thought.
Rex
Just so I'm clear - are you talking about injecting from underneath up and into the back of the valve, or just down and into the port?
:?
Buddy,
What was the final determination for a hood scoop for the "blown" engines? Got any pictures of the final design? Is the one on the T-shirt a final representation? We are making changes to Salt Cat 1 for 2014 and have been looking at that option. We don't necessarily need more air or any aero at this point, we just need more room to get stuff in the engine bay. Looking good, Buddy.
Doug
I have a question in regards to the remote dry sump system you are running on the car. Cuz im too lazy to go back through 100 pages of this awesome build I dont recall what tranny you are running. What tranny are you running and how are you going to work a scavenge and return to it?
Anybody can order rods and cams from Summit and make decent horsepower with a SBC.
Trent, I'll be happy to modify yours for you, on the salt, at no additional charge!
Of course, it's less messy if you take it off first! :-o
Those cam profiles will make life easy for the starter motor... :-) [or... push truck]
So is the Chevy going to sit out this year?
Sorry guys-try me in late August! :-DPolypropylene, well I think that's how it's spelled. I used it as skirt material on my race car in the 80s when we still ran wing cars. Rivets will require large heads or washers.
We need some unknown material for the fiberglass front end John K. is building. Hopefully, someone will know what it is we're looking for! Lol!
From John: I need to find the product to use for the skirting material at the bottom of the body panels. I need some of the black stuff that you have seen on other cars. Probably about 3 inches wide maybe 2” would do, and 3/16” to 1/4” thick. Do you have any ideas? I think they use a plastic material but maybe some stiff rubber would work. I would like to know what works. I know the front piece has to be stiff enough that the air would not blow it back but I would like it to have some flex in case or when it hits the salt. It will be riveted to the bottom of the panels.
the only bastard size thread that I can think of for a Harley
would be 1/4-24 .
it was used for securing lifter blocks to the engine case
and on ( I think ) oil pump studs to the engine case.
also, maybe more apps to the engine .
the only bastard size thread that I can think of for a Harley
would be 1/4-24 .
it was used for securing lifter blocks to the engine case
and on ( I think ) oil pump studs to the engine case.
also, maybe more apps to the engine .
1/4-24???????????? Sounds like they couldn't decide on a 1/4-20 or a 1/4-24 so they took the average between the two. I've never encountered a 1/4-24.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Buddy, it's not that it's black. It's because it has sleeves. :cheers: Wayno
Buddy, it's not that it's black. It's because it has sleeves. :cheers: Wayno
Maybe it was sleeveless but still had a collar?
Buddy - Does that biga** spoiler have some way to relieve the pressure buildup if the car spins? I have put a car with a similar spoiler in the A2 windtunnel BACKWARDS and it developed some significant lift with the back end facing forward. (Think of going backwards towards Floating Mountain). Either hinged at the connection to the body or a couple of simple flaps in the spoiler surface (flaps are kept down by the air moving over them but open when it comes from below). Similar to the cowl (NOT roof) flaps on a NASCAR Cup car. vic
Edit: I went back and looked at the pics again. I don't think it will generate as much lift as I saw on the car we had in the tunnel, which had much more surface area hanging behind the bodywork. Still best to be prepared, IMHO. The 325 TO ex-Dale Jr. Busch car spun last year and the spoiler ripped the deck lid off (still had the NASCAR mandated tethers, though).
Carl you are so right!! If this isn't the biggest case of "mission creep" I don't know what is!
And it is, and has been, so much fun to watch, thanks Buddy and crew!!
Rex
pops- thanks.
Any idea what the maximum negative acceleration is of those cam lobes?
wizardry just plain wizardry:cheers:
are the fenders a one off pieces or did you start with an "off the shelf" fender blank...
From me too. Have a good one bro. :cheers:HAPPY BIRTHDAY.....BUDDY!
I hope this birthday is a good one and also hope you have many more! :cheers:
Gregg
Work is the curse of the drinking class :-o :cheers:
Work is the curse of the drinking class :-o :cheers:
Never used to be that way around here. Working and drinking used to go hand in hand, and to good effect, I might add.
Back in the hey-day of this fair city, the bricklayers would hand kids empty pales and cash, send them down to the bar, and they would return with the elixir.
The brick and stone work in downtown Milwaukee is world class.
MADD's Milwaukee office is located in just such a building . . .
Buddy, regarding the locating pins, is one of them set up with a slotted busing to allow for different expansion rates of the metals?
by the way, looking really good. Wayno
... regarding the locating pins, is one of them set up with a slotted busing to allow for different expansion rates of the metals?...If the block/heads can move with respect to each other while clamped by the head fasteners, something would be drastically wrong.
... I think it's critical to keep this head from moving...That's the job of the clamping force of the torqued head fasteners. The two little dowels are simply for precise positioning during assembly.
Jack, you're right.
We didn't have dowels last year, but we had tight head bolt clearances, assuring us of precise positioning. Installing/removing heads with tight head bolt tolerances is an extreme PIA, and time consuming. We added the dowels, and opened up the head bolt tolerances slightly, to insure we still had the needed alignment, and to make installation and removal easier.
Buddy,
I think aero is going to achieve a lot more than you think. I would be cautious with the increase in HP until you see how much you gain with the body changes. There's always next year -- if you don't blow the motor.
Tom
Well whoop te do---I guess that explains my problem--let's see-- I dim witted--- for I blew up several--that means they were not RIGHT ---dumb me I thought they didn't like 7900 for the last mile!!!!
LOL. Tell us how you really feel.Buddy,
I think aero is going to achieve a lot more than you think. I would be cautious with the increase in HP until you see how much you gain with the body changes. There's always next year -- if you don't blow the motor.
Tom
You guys talk like a bunch of dimwits...You build them to race, not to idle around and save it for next year.
If you build them right they don't blow.
You guys talk like a bunch of dimwits...You build them to race, not to idle around and save it for next year.
If you build them right they don't blow.
You guys talk like a bunch of dimwits...You build them to race, not to idle around and save it for next year.
If you build them right they don't blow.
Pete, please.
Read through this diary.
They have built this engine right.
The nature of this engine build is so out-of-the-ordinary, so extreme, and takes into account so many anomalies unique to the basic design that Buddy and the guys are completely into uncharted territory.
They are right at the edge with this one - NOBODY has pushed a Caddy Flat-head this far.
And because there is no precedent, there is the possibility of failure.
Fordboy and I had the pleasure of sharing dinner with Buddy last week. Buddy is keenly aware of the potential for failure with this set-up. Having watched this build from day one, I can tell you that if it should fail, it will have nothing to do with failing to build the engine right.
I find your comment offensive - or at least, ill-informed.
Pete --
You ran almost as fast as the Cad, right?
But didn't you go all the way to the 4 or 5 or ???
Pete, we ran 13 MPH faster than the SBC with the flatcad top end-166MPH. The record was .3 MPH faster than top speed with the SBC, because that record was set between the 1-2 miles.
Pete, you have my apology. It looked like an impending donnybrook, and I love those.
I didn't know the history - which means it's probably time for ME to re-read this build dairy! :|
Stop by during Speedweek - I owe you a beer . . .
My grandmother had a refrigerator magnet that read -
"Lord, let my words today be sweet and tender -
Because tomorrow, I may have to eat them."
Pete/Buddy, we miss you in the Tuesday chats
Pete/Buddy, we miss you in the Tuesday chats
I look in several times a week but I guess everyone's on a strict schedule and can't get there any other time.
We need to train people to leave a chat window open all the time and make it about an inch square down in the corner of their screen. Then they can see if anyones on any time they are at the computer.
Pete/Buddy, we miss you in the Tuesday chats
I look in several times a week but I guess everyone's on a strict schedule and can't get there any other time.
We need to train people to leave a chat window open all the time and make it about an inch square down in the corner of their screen. Then they can see if anyones on any time they are at the computer.
The main activity is the 7-8PM MTN Window on Tuesday nights. Our club chats were open each night and it got to the point where no one showed up so we went back to a scheduled time.
Buddy,
I think aero is going to achieve a lot more than you think. I would be cautious with the increase in HP until you see how much you gain with the body changes. There's always next year -- if you don't blow the motor.
Tom
You guys talk like a bunch of dimwits...You build them to race, not to idle around and save it for next year.
If you build them right they don't blow.
Buddy,
I think aero is going to achieve a lot more than you think. I would be cautious with the increase in HP until you see how much you gain with the body changes. There's always next year -- if you don't blow the motor.
Tom
You guys talk like a bunch of dimwits...You build them to race, not to idle around and save it for next year.
If you build them right they don't blow.
Your superior knowledge is greatly needed for all those ''dimwits'' in Top Fuel :roll:
JL222
Need I remind you, I had one of if not THE first top fuel dragster in 1951.
Forget the fiberglass...............
Go in business making those dropped axles and the entire "gotta have one of those" streeters will buy one.
FREUD
Buddy , you are out of control , what an amazing effort. I will do my best for you on dyno day. I would hate to be the guy that sinks this ship. You are doing everything right , cyl pressure will double from straight alky to just 20% with a blower. We will feed it right , plenty of fuel.
the biggest challenge will probably be keeping Buddy from pouring the frickin can to it!
the biggest challenge will probably be keeping Buddy from pouring the frickin can to it!
Tip the Can! Tip the can! 800HP, baby! :evil:
All of the lines on Target 550 were first made with soft tubing and then duplicated with stainless.
You foto presentation is first class. The diary is excellent.
THANKS
FREUD
Buddy, The car is looking good. Just a thought (I don't know if the rules allow it in your class), wouldn't it be better for aero if you closed the gap between the two fenders and ran the running boards and the add a vertical plate down from the boards to seal everything? I think I mentioned it before, but what about some tire scrubbers? They do work long as you set them up at full droop on the suspension. Tony
John, you sure are a busy boy.
I'm really looking forward to running the MSD - I'm very excited about how it has performed on the bench. When you see the size of the spark and how I can adjust the spark gap to see the energy, it is pretty awesome stuff. The width of the spark is very different from even the very hopped up Vertex mag. Also, the new Power Grid controller can be used with the ProMag stuff (which has me thinking about next year!).
Is always fun to fire it up!
B&S
Ron Iskenderian sold me EZ-Roll wheels and axles- I'm surprised you couldn't buy them.
Apparently the Harley axles are not hardened on the ends, to allow swaging them over? The Isky axles are that way- I'm just trying to figure a way to emulate the factory's coining dies that do the swaging. I'm thinking of a jig that will resemble the tool you pictured.
Buddy,
Wanted to add a little (very little) humor to you thread! :-D
Sooooo, my wife goes out shopping Friday and comes home with this little trinket for me.
For years, I have used the expression, "When pigs fly out of my Butt" and she said she thought of me when she saw this.
As I was pulling it out of the bag, I immediately thought of you and told her what you have in your sig lines.
So, I present to you and everyone:
Piggy, The Flying Pig.....Protector and Defender of the Realm!.....LOL!
(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad318/GKABBT/Stuff/IMG_4800_zps465f600d.jpg?t=1371985800)
(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad318/GKABBT/Stuff/IMG_4802_zpsf9684f74.jpg?t=1371985839)
(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad318/GKABBT/Stuff/IMG_4803_zpscd2f171f.jpg?t=1371985754)
If Chris (Milwaukee Midget) can have a Traveling Gnome as a Mascot, I guess that Piggy will be mine.
Hope this brings a smile,
Gregg
Bearings - Some Unexpected Goodness:
A good thing happened, but only because I screwed up on a part number that I gave Buddy for the main bearings. When you have a billet crankshaft made for a 'normal' engine like a BBC, you'll have 1/8" radius fillets on all the journals - for strength. Due to this, you normally run narrower 'N' bearings (so they don't get pinched on the fillets). Last year we just ordered the normal Clevite V-Series mains - with the N suffix. I didn't even think about it.
BUT - when I gave Buddy the part numbers for bearings this year - I forgot the 'N". As luck has it, we don't need the narrow bearings on the flatcad as the journal widths are about 1.250 - much wider than a BBC, so there is room for the wider bearings . . . and they are 11% wider - which is a lot more bearing surface (with 3 mains, we need all we can get!). Cool! :rolleyes:
... what's the diameter and overall length on those roller rockers?...Flathead ain't-got-no rocker arms. Maybe you're thinking of his custom-fabricated roller lifters?
... what's the diameter and overall length on those roller rockers?...Flathead ain't-got-no rocker arms. Maybe you're thinking of his custom-fabricated roller lifters?
Buddy- Wouldn't heat-shield coating the pistons' undersides negate the oil-cooling aspect? Or did you not implement the oil-spray setup? Heat-shield on the tops of the piston crowns is very desirable.
... what's the diameter and overall length on those roller rockers?...Flathead ain't-got-no rocker arms. Maybe you're thinking of his custom-fabricated roller lifters?
Buddy- Wouldn't heat-shield coating the pistons' undersides negate the oil-cooling aspect? Or did you not implement the oil-spray setup? Heat-shield on the tops of the piston crowns is very desirable.
Jack, perhaps I talk I think what I'm knowing about . . . maybe. :-D
Let me rephrase the question.
"And by the way - what's the diameter and overall length on those cam followers? I might be seeing a British application in my future . . ."
It's no wonder I had problems earlier on . . .
Bees :? we have no bees in here :-o
Fantastic job by everybody involved - I am super impressed to say the least!
B&S
Buddy,
How tall are those spoiler side plates from the chord?
DW
Its official the flatcad is on it's way to Ohio for an engine Install.
Buddy,
How tall are those spoiler side plates from the chord?
DW
They are just under the limit from the rule book and just behind the axle centerline. I made them 7.75" above and below the center line of the spoiler. My book says they can be 8" above and below. I hope I did not make a mistake.
John
Buddy,
How tall are those spoiler side plates from the chord?
DW
They are just under the limit from the rule book and just behind the axle centerline. I made them 7.75" above and below the center line of the spoiler. My book says they can be 8" above and below. I hope I did not make a mistake.
John
John, it looks like the chord is greater than the 10" max?
Tman could you educate a greenhorn and explain the term chord I have never heard the term
Thanks
I would use AN hose and fittings or hard line in AN :cheers:
Soooo, I really hate to bring drama to the thread, but maybe my tranny issues with LIBERTY'S HIGH PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS, INC., will save someone else some heartaches!
I had went back and forth between a Gear Vendors 3 speed with overdrive, that Rich Fox was kind enough to loan me, and a ultra close ratio gear set for my Liberty toploader. I sent the toploader off for a new gear set in March, for what was supposed to be a 3 week job.
Well, as of last Monday, nothing has been done! On top of that, the price tripled! When I pointed out to Paul, the shop manager, that the new price didn't match the quote he gave me, his response was " Prove it- you don't have that quote on letterhead." WTF?
Paul called back, and said he could still do the job for the original quote, but it would be at least 3 weeks before the tranny was done. Paul, I wouldn't walk across the street to urinate up your backside, if your guts were on fire!
Soooo, I really hate to bring drama to the thread, but maybe my tranny issues with LIBERTY'S HIGH PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS, INC., will save someone else some heartaches!
I had went back and forth between a Gear Vendors 3 speed with overdrive, that Rich Fox was kind enough to loan me, and a ultra close ratio gear set for my Liberty toploader. I sent the toploader off for a new gear set in March, for what was supposed to be a 3 week job.
Well, as of last Monday, nothing has been done! On top of that, the price tripled! When I pointed out to Paul, the shop manager, that the new price didn't match the quote he gave me, his response was " Prove it- you don't have that quote on letterhead." WTF?
Paul called back, and said he could still do the job for the original quote, but it would be at least 3 weeks before the tranny was done. Paul, I wouldn't walk across the street to urinate up your backside, if your guts were on fire!
My wheels, my crank, my blow-blanket, my rockers, my flywheel, my dyno session that I eventually cancelled and moved elsewhere . . . Once everything finally came in and got done, it was all good, but what has happened to small businesses that they are compelled to promise or agree to deadlines that they simply won't or can't or are unable to honor?
Fordboy's been watching similar travesties unfold for a customer of his in Illinois for the past 4 weeks. The shop that had been doing the work for his customer just kept screwing it up and making things worse. With a Mini Cooper A-series, there are not a lot of options unless you do it yourself.
I've been a bit more resigned to it because of the nature of my build, but Buddy, there are plenty of good transmission guys out there who can rebuild a frickin' top-loader and will keep their word, and if for an unforeseen reason they can't, will be in immediate contact with you to accurately communicate the issue.
Liars have no business in business, and yet they abound.
I suspect with some shops it's a case of not wanting to turn down work, or having an unrealistic view of their own capabilities. But I also suspect that there are a lot of shop owners who know no other way of doing business other than to bluff, mislead and bullyrag their customers.
If that's what it takes to keep it above water, let 'em sink.
"b. Shifter - hits the seat and is generally not in a usable position. This is the same problem we had with the Liberty (Don made a custom setup). Randy is going to try to put a system together using both shifters, maybe some of Don's stuff, etc.. I anticipate this to be a somewhat detailed/complex issue that takes time to work out. One big PITA if you ask me."
That has been a problem from day one. I have a chipped bone in my knee to prove it.
I hope the fix doesn't take up too much time.
And a understanding of Einstien's theory is good to keep in mind when solving problems of this type.
"No two objects can occupy the same space at the same time".
Einstein never met any LSR physicists! :-D
Thats a nice looking tank, and big also. Your car must be a thirsty beast?
Trent, that's for sure!
Out of curiosity, would anyone be interested in running this mill in a proven lakester or liner? In order to make the engine shorter, it would be switched over to turbos.
That's right-I'm trolling! :evil:
Well................... whats the results?????????????????? :?
I think the XXO/BSTR record might be attainable if someone could find a driver not dizzy.
Have turbos that can travel!!!!!!!!! lol
What size are all of the wheels that will tell what they are.
Compressor Inducer Exducer
Turbine Inducer Exducer
Per John Beck do some leaning with Nytro !!
Done that many times.Per John Beck do some leaning with Nytro !!
Now that's an interesting approach - just keep blending fuel until it matches the jets. :-D
Pete, I forget. Are you gonna be there? Wayno
... no jets small enough...That's an unusual-sounding statement for blown-alky. Old-school constant-flow? Can't just keep going larger with the bypass pill?
Buddy just qualified with a 186 on a 185 record in theALTCC class.
GO GUYS! :cheers:
Gregg
Buddy, you and Randy sure blew Mike Collisons old record away that he set in the 1950 Buick. He had lost his other records to the Salt Cat Team.
Well, I've decided that the open trailer, and whole 'Beverly Hilltbilly" look has to go!
We seem to acquire more stuff for the car all the time, and now that we have 2 front ends, extra sheet metal, etc. I've decided an enclosed trailer would be nice. The wife agrees, as it would allow me to collect some of the parts that are now in Ohio and MO.
So, that's the quest I'm on now! :-D
Trent, this pic is for you! My cutoff shirts have become somewhat infamous, with both you and my team mates commenting on them.
Also, if you remember, last year my rig crews all sported mohawks, and gave me one.
Danny and I had run to town to get parts, and this is what we returned too!
Buddy, your helmet visor was up! :-o
Buddy, your helmet visor was up! :-o
Yep! I wore sunglasses, and about the time we took off they started to fog. I need to just get a smoked shield.
Did anyone notice the smoke come into the car, at the end of the run, on what would be the passenger side? The front end worked very well-almost too well! It sucked down, and rubbed a little on the tires, therefore the smoke.
Hey Buddy I just had an epithany, how about getting someone to donate a ZR1 to put the Flatcad in, hell its made out of fiberglass, should have good aerodynamics out of the box.......... :evil: :-D
Lease the So Cal streamliner.
It has a Flattie in it.
FREUD
I'm pretty excited! I made a deal yesterday on a new 'house' for the FlatCad. It should make hauling and working on the car easier!
Guess I'm going to have to keep doing this at least one more year! Lol!
Buddy,
Nice trailer and I am sure you will get good use out of it.
What I need is the BARN next to the trailer. :-D
Tom G.
Buddy,
Nice trailer and I am sure you will get good use out of it.
What I need is the BARN next to the trailer. :-D
Tom G.
Tom, you could probably break it down and have Buddy deliver it to you. :cheers:
Tom......what are you going to store the barn in?
You don't have time to raise it even if you had it.
FREUD
thats wierd shifting linkage Buddy...........Still more shifting jokes to funny :cheers:
thats wierd shifting linkage Buddy...........
Buddy,
Nice trailer and I am sure you will get good use out of it.
What I need is the BARN next to the trailer. :-D
Tom G.
Tom, you could probably break it down and have Buddy deliver it to you. :cheers:Tom......what are you going to store the barn in?
You don't have time to raise it even if you had it.
FREUD
Chris and Freud,
Thanks, but what I meant is that I need to find a Barn like that around here for all my junk.
Tom G.
The FlatCad is so far out of the norm that you are in the process of writing the procedure manual as you go.
This malady falls into the category, "Good ideas that you have no reasonable expectation of failing until something dumb happens."
So this will be in the appendix of the text, with an asterisk, and a note on the repair procedure.
... The only thing I can come up with, is that when we torqued the head nuts, the studs turned with them...That seldom happens with fine-threads at the top and coarse-thread at the bottom.
Almost forgot, you need to stop by for some of the Bushmills.... it is smoooo
ooooooooooooooooooth
Buddy, I visited with John K and Randy J at Mo-Kan today. Randy has a bad case of SALT FEVER.
Is it just me or is there no pictures since Reply #2051? I tried both IE and Mozilla! The last pic I can see on HAMB is also the same as on this forum, the cylinders in Reply #2051!
Is it just me or is there no pictures since Reply #2051? I tried both IE and Mozilla! The last pic I can see on HAMB is also the same as on this forum, the cylinders in Reply #2051!
Same for me :? :? :?,
Sum
But I can see the light again, halleluja!
That'll work, a bit small perhaps, at only 30 some kb.
looks like they are from Jalopy Journal? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=31768&pictureid=487463
Here are the rest of the pics.
looks like they are from Jalopy Journal?
Ok The mystery is solved !!! I tore the front timing cover off and I found more crushed up steel
(http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=31768&pictureid=488040)
So as I was looking around at the parts I removed and
(http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=31768&pictureid=488042)
I found where the pin came from
(http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=31768&pictureid=488043)
this is an anti-rotation pin for the idler gear shaft.. What we think is we started to lose the bearing and the shaft rotated and sheared the pin. We will now look in to the oiling system to the front of the cover
Maybe, I should have said SHIFT MASTER BUDDY :-D
Maybe, I should have said SHIFT MASTER BUDDY :-D
Looks like you put an extra F in there Pops... :-D :roll: :cheers:
How do I get the engine pics to come up, as I don't see a thing
Thanks, Don
here is a few shots of the crankWhat is with the picture thing? When I reply with quote I can see the pic address but on the site there's nothing!
(http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=31768&pictureid=490338)
(http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=31768&pictureid=490337)
(http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=31768&pictureid=490336)
Well, Buddy and I finally got together at my place this weekend to do the tear down on the motor ,, here are the results ..
well it looks as after a few self inflicted wounds,(( cracking of the block, head gasket issues, and edge clearance issues on the main bearings )) the motor held up fantastically . All the bearings look great, the scoring in the cylinders can be honed out. ect.
as for the self infliction -- the Block was looked at by the owner of lock-n-stich and he explained the process of the repairs to the cracks, and we feel this is the way to go. I will see if we can get some progress pictures of the repairs and post them. We also spent some time with Kenny Boyd at his shop to look over all the parts and he was impressed with the condition of the parts so we will proceed with having the block repaired, then to Kenny's shop for pressure testing the block, clearancing the main bearings, honing of the bores and lapping the valves. Buddy is working on ordering new coated bearings and new rings.
Here are the pics
cam held up great with the new roller lifter setup as did the lifters and blocks
(http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=31768&pictureid=490335)
(http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=31768&pictureid=490334)
now for self infliction !!!!!! we scored the top edge of 4 pistons on one side of the block by not having the head gasket aligned correctly you can see the interference in the pics
(http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=31768&pictureid=490331)
(http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=31768&pictureid=490330)
(http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=31768&pictureid=490329)
(http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=31768&pictureid=490328)
(http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=31768&pictureid=490333)
(http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=31768&pictureid=490332)
Buddy:
Howsabout you just send the photos to me and I'll get them posted? They'd be in one post, not scattered through your diary -- sorry. But they'll be posted. I'd put them in the Photobucket album and that'll get them visible. I still don't know for sure why you're having troubles. Maybe a PM to me, detailing what you're doing to try to post 'em and where will give me some ideas of what you're doing that only works fro a few folks, not everyone.
Bedtime for Nancy - and therefore for, too. :evil: :roll: :cheers: :cheers:
Slim, Pops, Buddy etc,
I see every picture just fine. I have Vista and Firefox 24.0, if that helps.
Tom G.
Don, I wonder if this issue is because the pics are 'tied' to the HAMB?
Can you try posting them straight from your host site?
.... I think you have to be registered in the HAMB board to be able to see the pictures...Pete
Years ago, Ryan would get side-ways angry with people who cross posted pics off of the HAMB. I haven't logged on in years, so I don't know about now.
Mike
larger image
If he can make aluminum gaskets he can make copper gaskets, I would think. I did a "Make your own copper head gasket" piece for the BRN few years ago. Not hard to do. Bob Dalton punched out an aluminum gasket for me to try out my dimensions, and then used the same program for the copper ones. So CNC punch press or Bridgport it's pretty easy if i can do it. In fact I found a picture from that story
...mike, Trent-there are no pics this time! The only pic was a flat piece of aluminum in the description I copied ans pasted! :-D
...mike, Trent-there are no pics this time! The only pic was a flat piece of aluminum in the description I copied ans pasted! :-D
Was the picture from HAMB again? If so that isn't going to work for a number of people on here :cry:,
Sum
...mike, Trent-there are no pics this time! The only pic was a flat piece of aluminum in the description I copied ans pasted! :-D
Was the picture from HAMB again? If so that isn't going to work for a number of people on here :cry:,
Sum
Sum, I think we've learned our lesson about the HAMB pics! This was just a pic of a flat sheet of aluminum that was in with the product description. When I copied the text, the pic simply didn't post with the text-I didn't try and post a pic.
Wikipedia says that the melting point of copper is "1984.32 °F" while aluminum's melting point is "1220.58 °F". (different alloys of either would be different ). Sooo, the question in my mind is would the 700ish deg difference be a problem ? I dunno, but something to think about.
roy
There's also thermal conductivity that can play some roll in it, from what I understand copper has some 1/3rd better conductivity in hot state than aluminium. And Copper expands much less than Alu that with an alu gasket may impose some creep problem. A fiber gasket can allow a lot more shear movement than solid materials. Multi layer StainlessSteel gaskets can allow shear between the layers without breaking.
Well if aluminum is that soft, why do you need a head gasket? You have aluminum heads. I dropped my head gasket right after annealing it and that copper gets pretty soft.
Copper can be etched with ferric chloride.
Nice try on the OFFY not having a head gasket!!! That was because the head and the block were a single casting! Also probably why they would take 50-60 lbs of blower boost in qualifying trim.
Rex
Like the new paint! :cheers:
I don't remember. :| Did you get a hp reading from the engine build / tune?
If so, how does it compair to the speed you ran and soes this confirm the numbers calculated from the spreadsheet?
Geo
I believe some motorcycles had aluminum head gaskets.
Is here a reason that copper is used, instead of aluminum? Don has the capability to make aluminum head gaskets.
It seems to me that if a soft aluminum were to be used, it would work very well with our o-ring/receiver groove setup.
I'm thinking of a soft, annealed aluminum:
6061-O Soft Annealed Aluminum Alloys - Sheet
Sheet
larger image This is the most versatile of the heat treatable aluminum alloys. It has most of the good qualities of aluminum, and it offers a wide range of mechanical properties and corrosion resistance. It can be fabricated by many of the commonly used techniques.
In the annealed condition it has good formability. In the T4 condition fairly severe forming operations may be accomplished. The T6 properties may be obtained by artificial aging.
It is welded by all methods and can be furnace brazed. It is available in the clad form ("Alclad") with a thin surface layer of high purity aluminum to improve both appearance and corrosion resistance.
Specifications: QQ-A-250/11, AMS 4025
Color Marking (Rod and Bar): Ends painted Blue
What if we quit trying to get the gasket to crush into the receiver groove? We enlarge the gasket cylinder opening, until it is just to the outer edge of the receiver groove, and have the o-ring go directly into the groove. We could use copper wire, and that would become our 'fire ring'.
The only remaing issue at that point is sealing water. We could used acid etched mild steel, aluminum, or copper, and seal with spray on Hylomar.
What do you guys think?
Fordboy, Thanks for that. It should help Buddy but it sure helped me. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
It is especially valid in engine assemblies where the head gasket clamp load may be marginal for the stresses applied. This means you, Rover K-series engine lovers . . . . . . . :roll:
:cheers:
Fordboy
It is especially valid in engine assemblies where the head gasket clamp load may be marginal for the stresses applied. This means you, Rover K-series engine lovers . . . . . . . :roll:
:cheers:
Fordboy
Funny how he can give kudos to you guys and slam my future plans all in one fell swoop . . . :roll:
Geez - those old castings. Carry on, guys.
Now we know where he gets his stuff!!
Rex
Well, our show engine is ready to install into the car! Don has done a great job getting it ready! :-D
Now we know where he gets his stuff!!
Rex
Well, not entirely. Most of the stuff comes from:
A/ 40+ years in the racing engine, engine rebuilding, engine machining business while paying attention . . . . . . . . . (requires a drive to keep learning)
2/ Industry and racing community contacts I've made over the years and kept up with . . . . . . . . . . (requires you to be a friendly and pleasant human being to deal with)
d/ Focused internet searching, as there is a LOT of information out there, some good, some less useful . . . . . . . . . . (requires you to develop a BS filter and commit to thinking through and testing these bright ideas)
BUT, as I have freely admitted on many occasions: Anybody can do what I do.
Now that I'm older, it is easier for me to recognize that I owe a debt to those individuals who pointed me in the right direction when I was younger and 'knew everything'. Since I can't repay them, I pay it forward by trying to help others when I am able, and the others actually want the help.
After all, I'm not going to be around forever. Too much of a burden on humanity . . . . . . .
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Ok, back to work on the car!
Next up, El Mirage with Mike Ferguson, the Road Runner president, driving!
Our main concern is sealing the inside of the car from the dust. Anyone have any good tips?
Buddy,Makes me love the LSx all the more. Big boost with no retorque from the initial assembly when GM torqued it only once. But anyway, I love this car. I love that it'll never be a low cD, but still has value and looks good. It's a huge investment for very low speeds, but I'm still appreciative of it, thanks for sharing your build.
As others have pointed out, retorque of the head fasteners is critically important to head gasket reliability. I just want to add my experience with alloy heads combined with cast iron blocks. The difference in expansion rates between the two materials creates a "creep rate" at the gasket interface. Best retorque procedure needs to start with a "cold" engine assembly. I have found it to make a huge difference Vs. a "hot" retorque. It is especially valid in engine assemblies where the head gasket clamp load may be marginal for the stresses applied. This means you, Rover K-series engine lovers . . . . . . . :roll:
:cheers:
Fordboy
Stan these slow speeds are almost as fast as he is planing on running with his FAST STREET CAR :roll:LOL, really. I laughed. I meant no disrespect, but what HP are you thinking that beautiful engine could do, once final tweaking is perfected?
Makes me love the LSx all the more. Big boost with no retorque from the initial assembly when GM torqued it only once. But anyway, I love this car. I love that it'll never be a low cD, but still has value and looks good. It's a huge investment for very low speeds, but I'm still appreciative of it, thanks for sharing your build.
Makes me love the LSx all the more. Big boost with no retorque from the initial assembly when GM torqued it only once. But anyway, I love this car. I love that it'll never be a low cD, but still has value and looks good. It's a huge investment for very low speeds, but I'm still appreciative of it, thanks for sharing your build.
Overdue,
For a guy who has never turned a wheel on the salt, thats a pretty ballsy thing to say wether you say your appreciative or not. I find it pretty Dodge impressive the challenge Buddy and his group have taken on to try to put this car into th 200 mph zone. To start with bascially a WWII tank engine and build one off parts as they have takes a lot of creativity, patience and talent. Its not nearly as difficult to run out an buy an LSX and coax 750-1000 hp out of it. Once you get a car on the salt and run at least as fast as Buddy has, then maybe you can run your mouth. But Im thinking folks would be more impressed with Buddys approach.
... but hardly running my mouth....
Look, the Sledgehammer did 254 on only 880 HP, and 1000 HP for the base Veyron means me having 1200 horses guarantees me capable of 254 on pavement. That fact alone proves I'm not running my mouth.
O'due, Let's see, I think this is the spot where I say talk it cheap, takes money to buy whisky...
Please report back when you have exceeded 254 in the mile on pavement or 250 anything on the salt. It is not actually as easy as it seems on paper. They don't put VHT on the mile tracks and definitely not on the salt.
My IQ is not 160... either.... but I also never brag before I do anything. I'm just one of those old guys that try to go fast on the salt.
Good luck with your quest... hope to see you on the salt in impound :cheers:
........or you may not have both oars in the water..............
I say 650 HP! :wink:Tman was right on the money. All the work is paying off but I'm wondering if Dale ever sleeps?
All the work is paying off but I'm wondering if Dale ever sleeps?
I say 650 HP! :wink:Tman was right on the money. All the work is paying off but I'm wondering if Dale ever sleeps?
Congratulations to everyone involved.
....I was disappointed, as I really thought we could and would top 700 HP. Still, the engine makes great torque, so we'll see what happens on the salt...
.... Where as at Bonneville it ain't the torque that makes you go fast it is the horsepower. Once you are pushing on the "aero wall" at close to max speed it is horse power that makes it happen. Torque just makes it easy to drive.
Rex
...The car has 29" tires, and the Rankin 4 speed gearing is 1.79, 1.45, 1.13, 1.00 (1st to 4th)
At El Mirage, we'll run on an 185 MPH min. I plan on 2.84 gears, and leaving 400 lbs ballast out of the rear....
...The car has 29" tires, and the Rankin 4 speed gearing is 1.79, 1.45, 1.13, 1.00 (1st to 4th)
At Bonneville, I plan on 2.54 gears for our 200 mph run....
Sum, Your math matches mine! I figure we'll be spinning 6087 RPM at 185 with no tire spin. We've spun over 6200 in Ohio, so we'll go with that at El Mirage. I think with the short run, we'll need to keep this thing running hard.
We may drop down from 2.54 on the salt, to 2.40. In the past, I've been over optimistic on how tall a gear the car would pull-I don't want to make that mistake again.
...For the salt, I think maybe we'll try and step out to the 4 mile, with either the 2.35's or 2.40's...
Buddy when I talked to Spud about SBCs and Nitro---one of his intresting observations was that he learned the hard way not to mix block and head materials with Nitro---alum heads with alum block cast heads with cast block other wise he could not keep head gaskets in them
What O-ring wire diameter? Block groove width and depth? Receiver groove width and depth?
Thanks for the reply, Mark.
It's a combination of things-clamping force and a gasket to thick for the 0-rings to work properly, I think!
We are not pushing the copper gaskets out, rather the gases start escaping on the block side, at the o-ring receiver groove. We went from dead soft copper to annealed copper, and this seamed to help, but did not cure the problem at high boost and high cylinder poressurs-21lbs and nitro!
Currently, we have to run .085" head gaskets, and even with o-rings and receiver grooves, it's hard to get and keep a good seal. We'll be deepening the head chambers .050", so that we can run a .035" head gasket.
What O-ring wire diameter? Block groove width and depth? Receiver groove width and depth?
What O-ring wire diameter? Block groove width and depth? Receiver groove width and depth?
Wire: .041
Groove Width in Head: .0395 (interference fit - very important of it won’t stick!)
Groove Depth in Head: .026
Protrusion: about .015 proud (wire in the head)
Receiver Groove Width: .055 to .060 (centered with the head groove)
Receiver Groove Depth: .012 to .015
Thanks. With those odd-shaped rings/grooves, I assume you did the grooves with a CNC program? With locations referenced to head dowels?
It appears to me that the .080" gasket thickness defeated the intended function of the O-ring and receiver groove.
Saw the beast yesterday and I must say, what a cool car! Hearing the weight of the motor cracked me up (freakin' heavy!) and the difference from Ford to Caddy flathead was pretty cool! While I was standing there talking to (I believe Bored and Stroked) about pushing out head gaskets and other weird issues, I asked what size head studs he was running. I know guys who have run fuel in BBC motors and stepped up from the 1/2" studs for more clamping force, so I can't see how this motor can hold anything from moving around with 7/16" studs! The car is awesome and I love the concept, but if there's room I'd stuff 1/2" studs in there at the very LEAST! Just my opinion guys... see you on the salt!
Duct tape :-o Buddy you mean you guys are not using Gorilla Tape :-D
Well, or at least something that rymes with pluck, huh? ;-)
weird red mohawk was ogling Kate.
FREUD
doln't know what to say Buddy.............but that is one butt ugly haircut........... :-D :-D
i wondered what happened to you. Good to see you back.Good to see you back, did the re wire go OK?
Hello Everyone!
I've received a lot of emails and calls asking where the Flatcad team disappeared too- well, we're still here!
After 2 rain outs, we took a little time off, and are now ready to begin the winter thrash, so we can attemt 200 MPH next year!
Updates will start soon!
Hello Everyone!
I've received a lot of emails and calls asking where the Flatcad team disappeared too- well, we're still here!
After 2 rain outs, we took a little time off, and are now ready to begin the winter thrash, so we can attemt 200 MPH next year!
Updates will start soon!
does anyone know how to get in touch with Buddy? He has changed phones
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/12509170_960206374057445_6422526504111883317_n.jpg?oh=a47f6857f16cb46cb6f227003433dae4&oe=5727E739)