Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Jonny Hotnuts on July 20, 2010, 09:15:17 PM
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I found that I had a surprising amount of salt in my intercooler. It was enough salt that it made a small pile when dumped out.
I had noticed that salt was in my up pipe after a qualifying run so I know salt was getting into the motor before I spun.
The odd thing is that on my back up run the car ran like it was on 2 cylinders...popping and snorting...until I hit the 2 mile marker and it was like a switch was hit and went into warp speed.
I am wondering if the salt that was ingested on the license and qualifying runs caused the plugs to salt foul and somehow work themselves out after running a bit...I am still not sure what caused the motor to be running bad and then just wake up.
I am perplexed on how the salt got in the intake track....it was clear the engine was running when the salt got in the motor.....you could almost see a pattern on the inside of the intercooler from directional flow. We are very careful to put balls in the scoop when towing and in impound. It just doesnt make sense as the front wheels are 100% covered and the intake is located middle aft and high.
I am curious to know if something like a pre filter sock or nylons could be used to filter the largish salt particles without resort to using a conventional air filter.
any thoughts???
~JH
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Nylons are very restrictive.
Been there done that.
Don
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JH,
Here's some food for thought. We run the Salt Cat through the stock Jaguar Air path, which brings the air through the grille, and up over the radiator support and then to the turbo. It is probably 30 inches off of the salt at the intake. We do, however, run a full frontal air dam that is about 2 inches off of the salt. We didn't run any type of screen or filter system. When we got everything apart this Winter, we found that the turbo compressor wheel had lots of little dings and nicks in it. Our theory is that the front air dam created a vacuum between the dam and the front support and lifted little pieces of very abrasive salt up into the air stream and the engine ate it[Burp!!!]. This year we are running a screen of about 5 times the surface of the turbo inlet [Bud Engineering at it's best]. We'll post results from the Great White Dyno.
Doug :cheers: :?
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If you have the room run a large air cleaner for your relatively small engine. It definitely results in cost savings. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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Scratches from abrasive particles were seen on the pistons, and to a lesser extent, the nikasil cylinders, during the last tear down. I run open velocity stacks on the Triumph when it is on the salt. I thought that salt was too soft to cause these scratches. Am I wrong on this? If so, I have plenty of time to fit a filter and I will put one on.
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I remember reading here of a motorcycle guy who found 1/2" of salt on his piston tops when he disassembled his motor . . .
Stan
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An air filter is always better if it causes minimal to no restriction and it can be fitted without causing serious problems in other areas. In many cases the air filter will quiet the air and the inlet to the carb or injector can be made way more efficient than an inlet hanging out in the breeze where other aerodynamic forces can get involved. Salt can be very abrasive.
Pete
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I remember reading here of a motorcycle guy who found 1/2" of salt on his piston tops when he disassembled his motor . . .
Stan
Yeah he's the same guy that tried to make a slinky go down the up escalator. :-o
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Spectre Industries (home of the Speed by Spectre AA/BGS) in Ontario, CA makes low restriction air filters (shameless plug). They had 2 on the car during the record runs last year. No salt bulld up in the Caddy! They have all the components to make it work for most applications. You can get a bunch of bends and tubes, cut, fit and mark them up and they will weld it up for you. Looking forward to Speedweek....
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1/2" on top of pistons ... now we know why the salt crust is so thin ... we were all blaming the mining operations and it was the racers carrying it away in their engines the whole time.
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I remember reading here of a motorcycle guy who found 1/2" of salt on his piston tops when he disassembled his motor . . .
Stan
Yeah he's the same guy that tried to make a slinky go down the up escalator. :-o
Saw that one coming!! :roll: :cheers:
Lynda
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went to start bike motor a week after bub '09;
wouldn't start .
drain plug comes off mikuni 48 hsr float bowl --
dark yellow hi-test flows out w/ a lot of whitish fine sediment
in the drain plug. twice more it's drained. same thing.
a week later bowl is 'filled' to check again. nothing comes out,
bowl won't fill. but gas flows from line going to bowl.(not yellowed).
nothing was in pingel filter. (brass insert)
i think salt chunks that got on k&n filter dissolved and got in
carb throat. making it to bowl?- don't know. maybe thru bowl vent?
bike no longer leans to left when on block.
bike fired sunday w/ new 48 and wiring harness after 3 yrs.
can't wait !!
franey
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Guys, I want to have an inlet on each side of my car to feed my Turbos, I would like thoughts, comments and suggestions on what might work and what type of air cleaner would most likely serve me best
I am thinking of an air box on either side with a filter to trap the salt.
The issue is the side of the car is in a wind shadow back there. so from what I have been told a NACA duct would be at a real disadvantage
I could come out the top of the car and duct down to the turbos.
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I like the latter idea. If you can duct from the top there's probably going to be less salt there. The problem with using air cleaners as a primary defence is that as the salt gathers you'll get less and less air flow. When you need the most toward the end of the run you'll have the least. On the other hand with ducting from the top you can use the NACA ducts effectively to increase airflow as you go faster and ingest less salt at the same time.
JMHO :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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I'm thinking turbos are make their own air anyway so they don't need forced air like a carb would. Put the ducts where the ingestion of salt would be least likely. IMHO.
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counter point---down low the intake can be in a high pressure area from the tire
"bow wave" :roll: might help aero
On a Lakester there is going to be salt everywhere at one time or another
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You might consider some kind of centrifugal filter that swirls the air before entering, theoretically throwing the salt to the outside.
Tom
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Sparky, timely thread revival. Tauruck and I are working on these same issues right now.
Another Q? Do turbos like straight ducting or an airbox?
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I've been looking and found this. It worked for Williams F1. Where it's situated for your application isn't good but may be a starting point.
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I thought that running a K&N filter on my turbo bike would keep the salt out, but no. The up-pipes and intercooler were full of it. The low position of the filter meant that the intake was being force fed salt spray at over 200mph.
I spoke to a K&N engineer and he said there was no way that their filters would keep all salt out. The particles can get so small that they will pass right through the filter pores.
So I reworked the whole intake so the intake opening was a NACA shaped opening on the front of the fairing about 3' off the ground. I just had a screen to keep big stuff out. After about 6 runs, no salt after teardown!
So now even if I run naked, the intake is going up high.
Don
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And added to the problem with an open front-wheeled vehicle (lakester, roadster, etc.) is the blast of salt when turning out after a run. It can effect your salt readings.
I've tried spinning it off, but probably not recommended for long-wheelbase vehicles.
Stan
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Would a box like this up high "Trap" the big chunks enough? would you put a cone filter on the end of the turbos or a flat filter up top?
________/ ________
l l l ->
l_______________l_/ /__l
/ /
/ /
/ /
Turbo l ___ / /
/
_________/
l
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Yeah you are right Stan :roll: --- on a long wheel base car it just stirs up more Salt for the engine to try to swallow---mine didn't like it :| ---that is why I dug this out--lol :cheers:
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Give K&N your engine specs, and RPM, and turbo info and they will tell you how many square inches of filter you need. We ended up with 5 K&N filters. Beats the alternative.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Both oiled gauze and oiled foam filters have been tried. The oiled foam ones have worked the best, by far. The filters are over twice the size they need to be. This way, they can clog a bit with no performance loss.
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We have also found that the air contains a lot of salt vapor and some of it condenses on the downstream side of the filter and if you don't wipe it out of the pipes, eventually it ends up going through the turbo even with a filter system.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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We have always used a KN filter Dry for our NA motors, knock the salt out every run.
For the turbo we fed a box with our NACA scoop, the turbo intake was in the box with a Cone filter on it. Never saw salt in any of the motors, intakes, throttle bodies.
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After talking to K&N here's what we ended up with. Twice the surface area we started out using. The front wheels really do throw up a lot of junk.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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"...This way, they can clog a bit with no performance loss."
I think, WW and others, that I remember being told that air filters (maybe oil, too) are designed to be better at doing their jobs when they're about 20% clogged with crud. They gain filtering ability as the large passages become slightly clogged, so build them a bit on the "loose" side and accept the fact that they'll catch some stuff. Within reason, of course, but a little dirt/salt in there is a good thing.
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If 20% clogged is good for performance 80% clogged is worth 2 MPH.
DW
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Both oiled gauze and oiled foam filters have been tried. The oiled foam ones have worked the best, by far. The filters are over twice the size they need to be. This way, they can clog a bit with no performance loss.
This is interesting.
We spend a considerable amount of time riding in the sand and have found the K@N filters to be superior to foam.
Sand and salt must filter differently.
That being said, currently we do run an oiled foam at Bonneville.
As far as size goes, we use as large as we can make fit.
Don
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Bg 3---now that is a filter---lol
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5 K&N's @$50 each. Don't want to change it too often.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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so is that a five layer samish :?
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Five open to the air, one open to the open mouth of the turbo. We are trying to avoid the trips to the Turbonetics Doc. They charge more than the local surgery center. If that keeps up I might see if the IRS will let me clain them as a dependent. :-D
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: