Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: SPARKY on June 16, 2010, 12:36:05 AM
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Well Sunday Joey and I started our build using his ATK for a Modified Blown Gas and Fuel bike. This bike has a 1 cyl 4?? cc Rotax for a powerplant.
We will be installing a Garret T-2 and using the stock M38 Delorto in a suck through application. We will probabaly have to use a hybrid T-1.5 if we can't get it to spool up.
Tonight we finished more or less striping the bike. We will be ditching the knobbies of course. We also replace the shock with a stiff leg. This dramatically lowered the bike and now he will rework the front forks to get to the final ride height.
We will have several questions as we go along. We are both novices on this turbo stuff. I you can help us by your suggestions please jump in we have not done any of this before. We are running on an open records and will be VERY suprised if we can keep it together much less get it over 120---
Question of the day will we probabaly have to re jet the carb?
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Well Sunday Joey and I started our build using his ATK for a Modified Blown Gas and Fuel bike. This bike has a 1 cyl 4?? cc Rotax for a powerplant.
We will be installing a Garret T-2 and using the stock M38 Delorto in a suck through application. We will probabaly have to use a hybrid T-1.5 if we can't get it to spool up.
Tonight we finished more or less striping the bike. We will be ditching the knobbies of course. We also replace the shock with a stiff leg. This dramatically lowered the bike and now he will rework the front forks to get to the final ride height.
We will have several questions as we go along. We are both novices on this turbo stuff. I you can help us by your suggestions please jump in we have not done any of this before. We are running on an open records and will be VERY suprised if we can keep it together much less get it over 120---
Question of the day will we probabaly have to re jet the carb?
Maybe not. Depends on the amount of power you hope to make and may only require a small "tune up" to work. Remember the carb works on press. diff. in this/all applications.
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Mike, That is we are hoping for, and we will plug check it as we go of course.
This bike has a single vertical tube frame that is the oil tank, the oil level is higher than any possible turbo mounting position this brings up the # 2 question of the day.
Does anyone know of any small 12 volt pumps that would be suitable for a separate system or as lift pump to return the oil to the stock oil system? we have a 12 volt transfer pump now we may try.
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Don't know if this would help or not, since you are pumping oil instead of water, but we used a bilge pump from a boat on a Rotary powered dragster to circulate the water since the stock water pump would cavitate at the 16,000 RPM we were turning the engine. Not really sure if a bilge pump would pump the higher viscosity or not, but it's an idea. :?
Would love to see some pics Sparky!
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Depending on the model Delorto carb. (flat slide....round slide) you may have a problem with the slide
sticking with the use of a draw thru Turbo.........a very strong return spring might be needed or better yet
repace the carb. with a butterfly type carb. (small S&S......like a B model cheap on E-Bay)
We have a stand alone oiling system on our Turbo Kaw. using a electric pressure pump......I forgot the name.....will dig the bike out of the corner of the shop and let you know the company's name.....I do remember the company is in Oregon...........
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Great comments guys---we will post some picts after this weekend, I think it has a barrel slide
We have NO experience,we are literally like a blind dog in a hanging meat house---we are excited about the prospects but do not know where to jump.. lol
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Keep in mind that the Rotax engine you are using has a roller bearing bottom end (rod-bearing) with that type of bearings the oil-pressure may be to low to lube the Turbo........the Rotax motor is a strong motor and should be able to handle a fair amount of boost.
You can contact Tony Murphy at tmurphy440@aol.com ..........Tony is the Rotax parts person in N.America.........knows all about your engine......has spare parts.....and spare engines........................
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Last night we started in on the serious construction, we cut out the battery and air box leaving the Main frame and yupper and lower sub frames: that should absolutely have us in compliance with M-B rules about the stock frame. As you can seethe Rotax has 4 valves on its single cyl. We are hoping the dual header pipes of unequal length will help us spool the turbo.
The ATK was a serious desert bike with incredible axle swing travel and huge ground clearance; all we did was swing the arm all the way up and stiff leg it. We are allowed to do what ever with the front forks they are in the process of being shortened.
Again boys and girls I am dumber than a box of rocks and ALL comments will be appreciated --thanks
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more updates:
Here you see why we cut the air and battery box out. The heart of this little adventure a small T-2 we got from Jon Amo. I suspect that it may be to large but there is a Hybrid T 15 that we can have built if we cant light this one off. We pressurized the swing arm and after we weld up some pin holes and install some fittings, Walla it is the oil tank for the turbo system. We will mount a small pump below it and run the oil to the top turbo fitting and with the help of our friend gravity will it will drain back into the reservoir.
In my conversations and reading the single cyl thread, I have concluded that I need at least 25 psi and 2-3 gpm of good synthetic oil.
Question of the day: recommendations on pumps and oil and comments about what else we need to consider---thanks again guys
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Does anyone know of any small 12 volt pumps that would be suitable for a separate system or as lift pump to return the oil to the stock oil system? we have a 12 volt transfer pump now we may try.
The 88 KTM LC4 had a small 12 volt pump for the water system. I think they switched to mechanical water pumps in 89 or 90. I ran one on my Microsprint and it pulled power direct from the ignition. Didn't need a separate power source. Don't know if it will work as an oil pump.
Have you considered rigging up a car type dry sump oil pump that you could run off the end of the cam?
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Any type of gear pump will have to be below the oil level although I have found one vane pump that is rated to 175 f
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Well Joey D and I got really lucky today. I found a web site with nothing but silicone hoses on eBay and in CO. and ordered the hoses to make this thing work. Went to the steel place and found a 90 deg weld El that was slightly larger on one end and we to the local turbo shop, Turbos Direct and pick up a T2 flange. I used the die grinder to recess the weld El and walla -- we have exhaust plumbing we should be able to weld a tab on the curve of the 90 and bolt it to the frame. We used a cut off wheel to modify the exhaust flange and a vice, vice grips, and a ball peen hammer to fab the exhaust.
Will order the 12 volt tranfer pump from RB Racing on Monday
Oh by the way the name of our entry is BlackSmith Racin---go figure
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This is a really interesting project. :cheers:
Are you going to have room for a small intercooler? How much boost are you planning to run? Any upgrades to the engine? Valve springs, rods etc?
Considering the huge gulps of air that a single needs, especially once under boost, what are your plans for intake plenum volume?
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:-P This is a first for all of us---we dont know---Joey has this bike we know it is not the best choice on gas we will most likely not run mor than 6-8 psi. If we can find the jets we might try more on E-85, doesnt make much sense to us than a low bucks atempt on this one cyl.
We are going to see if we can get the turbo to spool up with out an intercooler if it does then we may try to intergrate the intercooler. On a suck through we are wary of it.
WE WELCOME ---ALL--- thoughts and imput and questions that might lead us in the right direction.
thanks guys for your support and help
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Sparky,
That's what I like about this project, that it is a low buck build, using stuff that you already have and your talent to re-work it. That is the epitome of Hot Rodding!
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Sparky, who is the supplier for the silicone hose in CO. Vesco is looking for vacuum hose that is gas proof.
Thanks
Glen
Well Joey D and I got really lucky today. I found a web site with nothing but silicone hoses on eBay and in CO. and ordered the hoses to make this thing work. Went to the steel place and found a 90 deg weld El that was slightly larger on one end and we to the local turbo shop, Turbos Direct and pick up a T2 flange. I used the die grinder to recess the weld El and walla -- we have exhaust plumbing we should be able to weld a tab on the curve of the 90 and bolt it to the frame. We used a cut off wheel to modify the exhaust flange and a vice, vice grips, and a ball peen hammer to fab the exhaust.
Will order the 12 volt tranfer pump from RB Racing on Monday
Oh by the way the name of our entry is BlackSmith Racin---go figure
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siliconeintakes.com
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Be carefull on silicone hoses for vaccum and pressure. There are many aftermarket companies that are offering silicone hose that are using inferior product. I would ask for some type of spec sheet. Make sure it passes SAEJ20 Class A specs.
The thing you want to look at most is operating temp of the hose, don't take salesman word for it get a spec sheet.
There are silicone hoses out there that are thick but the operating temp is only 150-175 degrees. The hotter it gets weakens the structure of the hose. And that is where the problem is.
I know of a quality silicone hose that has 300 degree sustained temps without collapse at 25"/hg .... Max temp of 400 degrees reduced performance will happen.
Enclosed applications like streamliners should be aware of this.
JonAmo
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thanks Jon for the heads up!!
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Question of the day: Heat Shields
I have an elementry knowledge of heat shielding and we have under way trying to build a 3 layer system with SS and alum.; three dead air spaces under the seat that air can flow through
What are some magic materials we can pad the seat with and cover the turbo with to keep Joey from having calf fries? :-o
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Thanks for the question about volume---we did some research and decided to match up with the 2" od end and not the 1.75 od end. That will give us 500cc in the tube alone not counting the volume in the head or in the turbo so I am guessing we will be around 1.5x displacement.
Looking for sprockest today and found out the stock compression ratio is 9.2 and the stock springs float around 8200--hopefully they will handle 7-8 psi. at 7000. Thanks to all who responded on and off.
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:? Question of the Day :?
Sprockets we presently have dirt bike 14-48s we can get 17 for the front and down to a 37 up for the rear.
I am GUESSING we might want to start with a 17-40
please suggestions and coments. We have NO knowledge base in this PEA brain on bikes..
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Type "motorcycle gearing calculator" or similar into a search engine and several will be available. There is one on the formulas part of this website. Assuming a reasonable top speed, 3 to 5 percent tire slip, and the rpm you will use for sustained speeds, it is possible to figure out a starting point for the sprocket combo. Extra sprockets of different sizes are always handy.
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Hi Sparky,
Try this from Sumner's site.
http://www.purplesagetradingpost.com/
I'm back into the fray and might be traveling your way next week. If your around I'd like to visit a bit.
Thanks - Skip
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come on over would like to see you, been wondering what you had been up to
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:? Question of the Day :?
Sprockets we presently have dirt bike 14-48s we can get 17 for the front and down to a 37 up for the rear.
I am GUESSING we might want to start with a 17-40
please suggestions and coments. We have NO knowledge base in this PEA brain on bikes..
Don't knowif this will help but on my 500 Norton I run 22/42 on the primary and 21/42 on the rear. In fourth at 1:1 thats 3.90 overall. On my sidecar also powered by a 500 Weslake single the gearing is 26/42 on the primary and 21/47 on the rear. 3.84 overall. I think with a turbo you could gear a bit higher than that. I'm taking the sidecar to Bonneville this year and am considering going to 28/42 for the primary. 3.73 overall. Hope this might help.
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it seems like Christmas---packages arriving daily:
Turbo flange gaskets, heat shield material, 37 tooth sprocket for the rear. front and rear tires, Joey D found some used leathers today that comply with the rules, I spent several hours today working out the heat shields so that they do not appear to be streamling Picts soon
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Baby has new Avon shoes will take picts this weekend.
Question of the day:
Does the reference in the rules about streamling leathers refer to the hump behind the helmet that some leathers have?
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Sorry that I took so long posting the elec. oil pump we used on our stand alone oiling system for the Turbo on our Kawa.
Shurflo is the pump..............................................................................
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Yes, it does mean the hump in the back of the leathers, Sparky. The hump isn't supposed to be there if you're running in a "naked" class.
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Thanks Jon That is what I had guessed well if he buys those we can have it removed, may be we can make patches out of it :-D.
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Wow---Rube Goldberg would be proud but we have a free standing oil system for the Turbo and no leaks---25 psi with a 7/64 orifice for the turbo 20-50 synthetic for the turbo. If all goes well we will see if the turbo will light off.
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Please post some more pictures when you get a chance :cheers:
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my camera died---I will see if my wifes works
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test---jeeez I am such a retard with this digital stuff ---Sorry guys---I have other picts but between sizing and it telling me I have already submitted---
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Sparky, whatcha need to do is learn how to put photos on a site like photobucket. That way you don't have either size worries OR "filename already used" messages. Either try to figure it out -- or ask me at Speedweek and I'll show you how.
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thanks
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As far as the air plenum you need to go at least 4 to 1 with 1 cyl engine. If your plenum is too small the symptoms you will encounter is that that bike will run fine at low rpms but as the rpms rise it will sputter and start dying out. I made the same error and it took weeks to find out what the problem was. You can't make too large of a plenum only too small. Shurflo's make a pump ($85 or so) that will work to scavenge oil but the temp is limited to 170-180 Deg F. The RB pump will work as well just more $$. Put in a weld bung in the down pipe off the turbo for a wide band 02 sensor and Air Fuel Monitor- you're gonna need it to dial in the motor. The worst thing is to be running to lean, you want to start rich and work your way up to your best performance level. Depending on your setup best performance will probably be between a A/F ratio of 12.8 - 13.4 or so. Best to start in the 11's (rich). You don't want to wreck the motor after doing all the hard work getting it setup and running. There is lots on info on this stuff in books & the Internet, be sure to do your homework well and take your time. Oh, in draw through systems you do not want to use an intercooler (period).
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We run our na motors at about 12.8, I think the turbo guys are in the 11's.
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Well we got them to photobucket---havent figured out next step
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On the bottom of each photo on Photobucket there are three ways to copy the image to someplace, and the one you'll want to use is the last one. It starts with (http://and ends with).
Put your cursor on it and click to copy it. Sometimes I have to click on it and then go up to the toolbar, on the top of the screen, and click "copy" out of the "edit" menu there. Whatever -- once the [img] has been clicked on so you can copy it -- go to the Forum post you're working on, put your cursor where you want the photo to be, and click "paste". You'll get that long line of goofy-looking identity-of-the-photo stuff pasted right into the post. You won't see the picture then, but once you're done with the entire post and click "Post" -- the resulting post will be your text and the photos in full living color.
What you're doing is embedding a link to the photobucket image right in the middle of your post. It not only allows you to avoid having the "filename already used" message given to you, but with the Photobucket site you can have picture files as big as you might want. Better still, it takes up almost no room on the landracing.com site, helping keep things small (and therefore cheap) on the server.
There are other "photo" sites, like Flikr (or some such spelling) and probably others. Photobucket gives you plenty of space for all the photos you're likely to want to store - - free. I pay $25/year and get way more space, but I post so many - especially during events - that I use up all of the free space pretty early in the year.
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OK
http://m1032.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/sparky2211_2010/DSC01862.jpg.html?pbauth=1_uLEBonVPfaLdh1h3YMYz2WVP15c4mFq%2BNegQcab7THJKgUHqB3TBLuuI3N2RVUQO5DgoSqg%2ButKJFa1WYQp2ZR7BS050fodh68Cv%2FSXoFJyJOQHGZCDs%2FaRiubPc80m1mofbB4z4dZdtL6Z%2Fv%2BeZZaNnb0pwV3gNqkCGTc3ZhIfafGOWFAeAXg%3D%3D
http://m1032.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/sparky2211_2010/DSC01861.jpg.html?pbauth=1_uLEBonVPfaLdh1h3YMYz2WVP15c4mFq%2BNegQcab7THJKgUHqB3TBLuuI3N2RVUQO5DgoSqg%2ButKJFa1WYQp2ZR7BS050fodh68Cv%2FSXoFJyJOQHGZCDs%2FaRiubPc80m1mofbB4z4dZdtL6Z%2Fv%2BeZZaNnb0pwV3gNqkCGTc3ZhIfafGOWFAeAXg%3D%3D
http://m1032.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/sparky2211_2010/DSC01860.jpg.html?pbauth=1_uLEBonVPfaLdh1h3YMYz2WVP15c4mFq%2BNegQcab7THJKgUHqB3TBLuuI3N2RVUQO5DgoSqg%2ButKJFa1WYQp2ZR7BS050fodh68Cv%2FSXoFJyJOQHGZCDs%2FaRiubPc80m1mofbB4z4dZdtL6Z%2Fv%2BeZZaNnb0pwV3gNqkCGTc3ZhIfafGOWFAeAXg%3D%3D
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No, but you're close, Sparky. Maybe things have changed a little since I last used the site, but I have to use -- and you didn't use -- the trick thingie that starts with "(http://and ends with the ")".
The links you put up take us to photobucket and we can see you photos -- one at a time. If you can eventually figure it out -- the photos will magically appear right in your post as photos, not links.
Starting early tomorrow morning Nancy and I will have three days in the truck -- which is time for me to go to Photobucket and refresh my memory on how to do it. And then I'll get back with you. Right now -- no time. I'm just about done packing the truck and trailer. Whew, this is work. And I wonder how the heck I'd get everything in there if I was carrying a couple of race bikes, too! I've got one -- a nitrous 'Busa -- and with that and the pit bike and everything for Salt Talks including a deep freeze full of pasties and our mini-fridge for sandwich and drink stuff while we're driving -- heck, as I said -- "how'd I get three more bikes in here?".
We'll see you and everyone in less than a week. Whoo-hoooo!
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Sparky, you can also change the size of picture you are taking in the camera menu... use the smallest size.... Photobucket is good, but I'm sure you have seen photos missing on this site because the account is inactive or expired....
see ya on the salt 8-)
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Sparky, Forget photobucket. I could never get that to work either. Go to Imageshack. Its a whole lot easier. When you go to upload photos you get a size option. From small to large. And when you go to retrieve them for this forum its a simple click in the share box and the photo shows up in a box with the various options. Left click on forums and right click on paste and voila! your home and dry. Think about it Sparky. My sidecar runs a coil and points!!! I have no idea about electronic ignitions yet I can post photos. Therefore it must be so simple even an idiot can do it!
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Well, whatever -- let's get the guy taught so he can share his photos no matter how he does it. As for me -- your description of "left click this" and "right click that" is confusing - to me, the all-Apple guy. For those of you that don't know it, the Apple mouse has not left and right buttons to click.
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(http://m1032.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/sparky2211_2010/DSC01861.jpg.htmlpbauth=1_uLEBonVPfaLdh1h3YMYz2WVP15c4mFq%2BNegQcab7THJKgUHqB3TBLuuI3N2RVUQO5DgoSqg%2ButKJFa1WYQp2ZR7BS050fodh68Cv%2FSXoFJyJOQHGZCDs%2FaRiubPc80m1mofbB4z4dZdtL6Z%2Fv%2BeZZaNnb0pwV3gNqkCGTc3ZhIfafGOWFAeAXg%3D%3D)
Lets see if this works
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Emperor Norton --
"Therefore it must be so simple even an idiot can do it!"
Aren't you still trying to memorize your firing order? You told me it was your #1 project.
Stan
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Emperor Norton --
Aren't you still trying to memorize your firing order? You told me it was your #1 project.
Stan
Stan, you'd be confused too if you had to wire this.
(http://)(http://a.imageshack.us/img821/2879/img1659e.jpg)
By weslake (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/weslake) at 2010-07-06
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Modern vehicle wiring (notice modern) ... all positive wires are in the harness ... doesnt help much does it ... Joe
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I think the room is smarter than me :-( ---instdead of vice -versa :?
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I think the room is smarter than me :-( ---instdead of vice -versa :?
I would say there is a lot of arguement in that statement.
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Well the thing fires and runs on the street---
with the high gear running in a neighbor hood with only a rear brake---never got above 5500 in low gear---lol we think we maybe on the verge of getting the turbo to spool we need to jet it richer---it must have been jetted for the mountains---the exhaust get HOT will try to post tomorrow brain is tired and beingineered
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WE chickened out broke down and bought a new hybrid "15" series turbo spent all afternoon instaling it---it for sure should light off. converted a jet ski layanard so that we have a a legal KIll if we are asked las tmajor thing is saftey wiring the rear axle. Repaired th trailer and cleand out the truck--- should be able to leave for the salt Thursday noon will spend the night in LV drive in Friday.
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Joey is off to work on his leathers we found on craigslist--- the bike is ready for inspection---yeah
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Boy oh boy did we get an education
1. about factory literature---turns out the rev limiter is 4950 not 7950 I guess that is why it has no tach
2. speedo accuracy way way off-- over 20% registers 90 actually about 77
3. FUEL thanks to someone in impound we learned about fuel vapor heat range charts and such
bottom line is if you have detonation issues go with octane ratings--- if not choose the fuel that will vaporize 90% at the lowest temp
we posted record on an open-- that was WAY slower than we had hoped for-- we over geared--very rookie mistake ---we didnt get near the boost we were hoping for because of the rpm limits
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Welcome to Bonneville!!!
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thats kinda funny..... nrhs welcoming a 300 mph veteran to bonneville........