Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA Rules Questions => Topic started by: blackslax on June 14, 2010, 02:53:30 PM
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I have a question about engine specifications.
I know in motorcycle classes, engines have to be either from a motorcycle or "purpose built".
What constitutes purpose built? I can have an engine custom made with proprietary purpose built heads, barrels, crank, pistons, rods etc. Is it considered purpose built if the heavily modified base is a Polaris casting or is it considered a snowmobile engine? It is a matter of cost. They will CNC a base for $4000 or I can use a Polaris base that is then heavily modified for $1,200.
Would someone in the know care to chime in on this.
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I'll bite at this one.
Production is not an option
Modified is likely not an option either as Polaris does not make motorcycle engines ( Victory is a sep. Co.)
Altered: Go for it you could put a steam engine in it if you wanted to
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I just noticed this is posted in the ECTA section. They tend to do things a little differently than the left coast and accept a broader range of vehicles. Why not contact them directly to get your answer? The one thing to watch out for is that what's accepted there might not be accepted by other organizations. You may have to follow the same route with any organization you might intend to run with.
Pete
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In Special Construction/ Altered and Streamliner, you can have a purpose built or motorcycle motor. Non-motorcycle motors are not allowed. Sorry, I know you were looking for a different answer.
Joe Timney
President
ECTA
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I am looking at getting a BossHoss to run in production. Is that legal ? these motorcycles are built using a chevrolet based V8 motors, does that make it a motorcycle motor?
Roy
In Special Construction/ Altered and Streamliner, you can have a purpose built or motorcycle motor. Non-motorcycle motors are not allowed. Sorry, I know you were looking for a different answer.
Joe Timney
President
ECTA
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No, it is a car motor.
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Boy -- that was easy.
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wow I would not have figured that, I can understand the Boss Hoss Chevy, but in Alt/Spec Construction I would have expected you could put anything in it.
what makes a motor purpose built? I one off built from your own castings?
So much for my Formula 1 Sidcar with a blown/fuel Snowmobile motor :cry:
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No, it is a car motor.
production class has no such rule....
only says that 500 have to be sold thru retail motorcycle dealers....
Roy
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This is going to get good, haven't had this one for a while.
DW
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dw230.....have u had anyone lately?
FREUD
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What does the SCTA say???
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I have another wrinkle and since it is a topic of conversation.
The 80s Yamaha RZ liquid cooled two stroke 350cc MOTORCYCLE ENGINE . was later used in ATVs .The ATV is called a Banshee. The engine is identical to the RZ .Problem is most RZ engines are gone. Is is legal to take a banshee motor and put it in an RZ and run in modified? The only difference would be the cereal number.
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I talked to the SCTA and was told no. Even though the design is completely purpose down from HEAVY crank with the base machined to install the crank and a counter balancer. custom barrels, pistons, heads, no dice. I even asked about a full CNC base instead of a modified sled base and was told no. I was told that if the barrels and the and or some other parts were taken from a bike it MIGHT be allowed. I guess that since my builder does mostly sled work, they feel I am trying to sneak in a sled motor.
I pleaded my case as far a "purpose built" motor but to no avail. Which of coarse brought up the same question about 4 times in the conversation, "what about BUB". I was told that bike "barely squeeked by". The best conclusion I can draw is that a multi million dollar project has more "purpose" than mine. :cry:
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I have another wrinkle and since it is a topic of conversation.
The 80s Yamaha RZ liquid cooled two stroke 350cc MOTORCYCLE ENGINE . was later used in ATVs .The ATV is called a Banshee. The engine is identical to the RZ .Problem is most RZ engines are gone. Is is legal to take a banshee motor and put it in an RZ and run in modified? The only difference would be the cereal number.
I believe that some of the Banshee's internals are different, such as the transmission. Not sure if that it a stumbling point or not.
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How about the Omega class...you can use a non-motorcycle or purpose-built engine and it is legal. I think everybody needs to have a turn trying to write a rulebook...kind of like being a deer on opening day!!! Oh, the irony. LOL
Wrongway,
Roy, you just want to add a car motor to your car tire!!!
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How about the Omega class...you can use a non-motorcycle or purpose-built engine and it is legal. I think everybody needs to have a turn trying to write a rulebook...kind of like being a deer on opening day!!! Oh, the irony. LOL
Wrongway,
Roy, you just want to add a car motor to your car tire!!!
yep ,,, so I am good to go for production class with the Boss Hoss ?
Roy
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How about the Omega class...you can use a non-motorcycle or purpose-built engine and it is legal.
rule books says "Any engine using a thermodynamic cycle other than Otto cycle" for the Omega class.
that would rule out most of these engines , wouldn't it ?
Roy
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omega = steam turbine electric willie buchta
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I am looking at getting a BossHoss to run in production. Is that legal ? these motorcycles are built using a chevrolet based V8 motors, does that make it a motorcycle motor?
In another thread about the SCTA saying MC only engines it was eluded to that they upheld MC engines, purpose built, and mainly comprised of MC parts to "keep the Boss Hoss out". Don't know if that is true or not, but since your small block was originally designed to be a car enigine, your out of luck with me.
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I am looking at getting a BossHoss to run in production. Is that legal ? these motorcycles are built using a chevrolet based V8 motors, does that make it a motorcycle motor?
In another thread about the SCTA saying MC only engines it was eluded to that they upheld MC engines, purpose built, and mainly comprised of MC parts to "keep the Boss Hoss out". Don't know if that is true or not, but since your small block was originally designed to be a car enigine, your out of luck with me.
The rules for production aer very straight forward.
" This class is limited to production , street-legal motorcycles of which 500 or more have been produced and are available for sale to the general public through retail motorcycle dealers"
The Boss Hoss does meet these requirements.
Altered is the only class that stated that you have to use a motorcycle engine.
Roy
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roy production states production engines must be the same model as the model of the frame being used ---that would exclude the boss hoss unless you can talk chevrolet into makeing 500 frames --if you want to run a chevrolet motor read the rule book very carefully willie buchta
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roy production states production engines must be the same model as the model of the frame being used ---that would exclude the boss hoss unless you can talk chevrolet into makeing 500 frames --if you want to run a chevrolet motor read the rule book very carefully willie buchta
the ECTA rule book doesn't say that in the production section.
Modified Production does state "engine must be from the same manufacturer as the frame"
so Production still looks legal.
Roy
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wrongway before you start an argument with me you should read the whole rule book and not just the parts that suit you---just because i live in calif. i still have a ecta rule book --perhaps you should read 7.j.i and 7.j.2 ----i remember it like this special construction classes build off of modified production classes and modified production classes build off of production classes --as you move away from production you are allowed to do more and more---if in special construction 7.h.18 only motorcycle engines are permitted NO CHEVYS ALLOWED then they wont be allowed in modified or in production which are stricter classes willie buchta
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In Special Construction/ Altered and Streamliner, you can have a purpose built or motorcycle motor. Non-motorcycle motors are not allowed. Sorry, I know you were looking for a different answer.
Joe Timney
President
ECTA
Joe,
I am just curious, what would constitute a purpose built motor, and be legal?
Tom G.
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I am looking at getting a BossHoss to run in production. Is that legal ? these motorcycles are built using a chevrolet based V8 motors, does that make it a motorcycle motor?
Roy
Roy,
Buy the bike and run for fun. I am not familiar with ECTA, but don't they have a Time Only entry. If I really wanted to run something that did not have a class to run in, I would run for time only.
Tom G.
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Yes, we do have a Time Only category -- but remember that any vehicle that runs, whether in a class or not, must still pass tech. And part of the tech process is the requirement that the vehicle may be judged to be unsafe and therefore prohibited from running (7.B.14, ECTA rulebook). I'm not saying that a Boss bike would be so judged -- just pointing out that part of the rules.
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In Special Construction/ Altered and Streamliner, you can have a purpose built or motorcycle motor. Non-motorcycle motors are not allowed. Sorry, I know you were looking for a different answer.
Joe Timney
President
ECTA
Joe,
I am just curious, what would constitute a purpose built motor, and be legal?
Tom G.
My understanding of purpose built is.When you make a block from a big " block" of aluminum .Then make a billet crank . Have some rods made and a set of pistons turned to you own spec. Then whittle out a head on a CNC machine.
That would to me be a purpose built motor. It did not come from anything and was purpose built to race land speed in what ever you are racing.
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My understanding of purpose built is.When you make a block from a big " block" of aluminum .Then make a billet crank . Have some rods made and a set of pistons turned to you own spec. Then whittle out a head on a CNC machine.
That would to me be a purpose built motor. It did not come from anything and was purpose built to race land speed in what ever you are racing.
If that is the case I own a V8 motor that would qualify for the purpose built class. Something does not seem right. What am I missing.
Tom G.
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tom production is for a production bike --modified is for a modified production bike --in both classes the frame and engine must be from the same manufacture ---the A class ( special construction ) is a purpose built race bike--the rule book says 7.G.9 scta rule book and 7.H.18 ecta rule book says "Any single or duel combination of motorcycle engines permitted.-also read 7.J.5 through 7.J.11 ecta book and 7.J.5 through 7.J.11 in the scta rule book thanks willie buchta
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Hi Willie,
Thanks, for the clarification.
Tom G.
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Hi tom very nice seeing you at el mirage willie buchta
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Hi Willie,
It was nice to see and talk to you and Sheri also.
Tom G.
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wrongway before you start an argument with me you should read the whole rule book and not just the parts that suit you---just because i live in calif. i still have a ecta rule book --perhaps you should read 7.j.i and 7.j.2 ----i remember it like this special construction classes build off of modified production classes and modified production classes build off of production classes --as you move away from production you are allowed to do more and more---if in special construction 7.h.18 only motorcycle engines are permitted NO CHEVYS ALLOWED then they wont be allowed in modified or in production which are stricter classes willie buchta
ok , so I am rereading the rule book here is the section in question....
7.J.1
Production engines must be the same model as the model of frame being used and must have STOCK EXTERNAL APPEARANCE.
The model in question is BHC-3 ZZ4 SS.... I think you are confusing the Make with the Model ...
this is really stupid ...
the car section does a much better job of defining what engines are legal , it says " The engine used must have been available in the model of the vehicle used as purchased from ANY automobile dealer."
that makes sense and allows for manufacturers to OEM engines from other manufacturers, like Dodge using a Cummins, or Ford using Mazda or International, etc
Roy
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roy i will try this one more time---i will list the reasons you cant run a chevy motor in production or modified production---the boss hoss is built to your specs and not all to the same standard---chevy never made a motorcycle---chevy never made a motorcycle frame--wheel base maximums---- a chevy motor is a CAR motor--because the maximum displacement in production and modified production is 3000 cc thats 183 cu. in. ---because the ecta and scta say that you cant--i am sure there are more but any one should do it willie buchta
http://www.mountainbosshoss.com/specs.htm
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roy i will try this one more time---i will list the reasons you cant run a chevy motor in production or modified production---
---because the ecta and scta say that you cant--
and that pretty much sums it up.
If you wanted to ban a manufacturer , you should have just done that instead of trying to legislate it out .The rule book would be easier to follow.
Roy
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roy it seams that way sometimes---i actually like the special construction A classes better there are less restrictions --in the sidecar and sidecar streamliner and streamliner classes you can do pretty much what you want though there are still rules there is lots of room for innovation --i run in the sidecar class because i think it has the least amount of rules ( dont tell anyone i said that ) i will give you the same advise i do to everyone ---read the rule book until you can answer any question asked---build something that fits your budget---plan plan plan ---whatever you plan on spending double that ---HAVE FUN if you need help let me know willie buchta
i just looked in my 1984 rule book --the oldest one i have--maximum displacement in production is 3000 cc---looks like the guy that built the boss hoss didnt read the scta rule book
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here you go:
what does one do with any of the number of different motorcycles manufactures that do not produce their own engines, but rather source them (or sourced them) from other manufacturers?
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One thing I learned from the Propster, and it took a while. Is that sometimes a persons hobby only seems to be LSR. In truth they would rather debate. I don't mind a little debating. But I think I would try to find a debating web site if that was my goal.
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HEAR, HEAR Rich!!!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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here you go:
what does one do with any of the number of different motorcycles manufactures that do not produce their own engines, but rather source them (or sourced them) from other manufacturers?
Or what about a company that builds a "Motorcycle Motor" but does not build a "Motorcycle". Or is that considered a purpose built motor?
Tom G.
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Oh, what the heck -- why not continue to stir the pot? Bimota builds fine higher-end bikes -- and uses Ducati engines. Any trouble using a Bimota in any bike class, even production?
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Don't forget Buell and Aprilia use ROTAX engines.