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Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: SUMO on June 08, 2010, 01:28:51 PM



Title: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 08, 2010, 01:28:51 PM
figured id start a build diary. not that an awful lot of building has gone on yet

i have a bad panther habit and this is the next one on the bench.

im hopeing that 2012 might happen for me for bonneville but im not taking a bike over there half baked so we shall see how it goes. funds [as ever] will be a defining factor as much as time

this is the first twin engine bike ive built - first twin panther ever built, and as far as i know will be first panther to run at bonneville [probably good reason - they are not renowned for their turn of pace :-D]

i had a couple of early 1950's engines knocking about in the shed so they are the fodder for the venture. they are a low compression engine so i though it would be remiss of me not to throw a supercharger in their general direction too.

oz popped round at the weekend, drank some warm beer, and put me straight on the direction of the supercharger and alls happy in my shed again

im converting the engines to a semi-dry sump and taking the bores out so i am total 1350cc. various bits and pieces tuning wise but nothing too scary - they need to stay reliable - not too many panther spares in america... i have an r1 front end and a bandit rear propped up ready to go, and a harley 4 speed with an electric boot - kicking 1 panther is bad enough... 2 i dont fancy my chances

got most of the big bits now, and im taking it all up to get frame sorted in a few weeks - cant wait - its been a long time coming

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/P5290002.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Buzz Lightbeer on June 08, 2010, 02:06:19 PM
Hi Sumo, welcome to the madhouse of OZCO & friends love the project. Oz & I were chatting about it last night, if all the people who are talking of coming over with us in 2012 do so, it looks like around 25 odd people will be there plus about 6 bikes I think :-o.
PJ & I are getting close to having all our parts sourced so we can get going to. As Oz said to me last night, we have about 85 weeks to get it all done, not like he counts the days till we are back on the Great White Dyno to keep our licences up to date :-D       


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 08, 2010, 02:14:33 PM
hey mate - my original plan was 2013. but the saving on shipping makes 2012 sound like a nice idea if i can pull it off. if i cant i can live with it...


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: oz on June 08, 2010, 02:20:21 PM
You know it Chop Chop buddy we serve cold beer in my shed!!

Dont bother drinkin Daves(Buzz Lightbeer) notorius for buying low to non alcoholic beverages.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: nrhs sales on June 08, 2010, 03:46:24 PM
Never heard of a Panther. Where was it made?  Are they single cylinder engines?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on June 08, 2010, 03:57:31 PM
I've held my thoughts about you Brits close to my chest - but since you've broached the subject yourself -- I'll simply state my agreement with your assessment of your countrymen.

"...it looks like around 25 odd people..."

Yup, odd indeed.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 08, 2010, 04:14:32 PM
Never heard of a Panther. Where was it made?  Are they single cylinder engines?

built in Cleckheaton West Yorkshire. About 3 miles from where I was born. Went out of business in the 60s. They are indeed a big single... 600cc long stroke, fire every other gas lamp

and I've been called an awfull lot worse than odd


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: nrhs sales on June 08, 2010, 04:51:52 PM
Very cool. So wold you plan to run it in vintage class?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: dw230 on June 08, 2010, 05:58:00 PM
I'm not  a bike guy but, does this chart from the 2010 rulebook put damper on a twin engine 1200cc bike?

7.D.4   Frame   Engine               Max      Max No.   
   Class    Classes                 Displ.       of Engines:
       P           P, PP, PB, PPB, PV                  3000      1
       M          All except UG, UF & omega                  3000      1   
       MPS      All except UG, UF & omega                3000      1   
       A          All except UG, UF, P, PP & omega             3001 & above   2
       APS      All except UG & UF, P, PP             3001 & above   2
       S           All except P, PP               3001 & above    2
       SC        All except P, PP & omega       3001 & above   2
       SCS      All except P, PP & omega      3001 & above   2


DW


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: 46champ on June 08, 2010, 07:15:32 PM
It looks to me like you could run A or APS 1350, if the engines were produced prior to 1956 it should be able to run vintage.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: dw230 on June 08, 2010, 08:06:11 PM
Don't you have to be over 1350cc diplacement to run the class? Two 600cc engines add up to 1200cc in my math.

DW


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Calkins on June 08, 2010, 08:16:58 PM
and taking the bores out so i am total 1350cc.

Here ya go DW


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Stainless1 on June 08, 2010, 08:22:33 PM
Last I looked, if you have 1200 you run in 1350, if you have anything between 1001 and 1350 you are 1350.  If you have more than 1350 you still could be OK due to the reconditioning rule...


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: willieworld on June 08, 2010, 08:24:34 PM
to run in the 1350 cc class you will have to be under 1350 cc---not counting a .020 overbore and in vintage a .050 overbore        with 2 motors you can run in A   APS   SC   SCS and S  if the motor is a pushrod motor just add a P                    willie buchta


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on June 08, 2010, 11:51:31 PM
Will the English invasion be at BUB or Speedweek?  I will definitely figure out a way to get there, either way. 


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 09, 2010, 03:05:46 AM
engines are 1951 and 1952 [and the spare will be 1953] so i drop into vintage nicely

as far as i can work out with this numbers/letters system

A/VPBG-1350

special construction, vintage, pushrod, supercharged, gasoline, 1350cc.


i cant see a record to aim for but im sure there will be one somewhere - to be honest - ill be happy to break 100mph on anything panther powered, whatever over that is a bonus


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Tofu on June 09, 2010, 07:18:22 AM
Possibly the first 4 stroke Panther twin but not the first Panther twin, they had a Villiers 3T engined bike in 1959.

I have been following Landracing Forums for a while and I must admit that I think that it is the best. Love the technical issues, the humor, the friendship and if I was a bit closer to the salt would have a go at building a bike. However i shall have to live my dreams through the actions of others,

Cheers
Tom


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 09, 2010, 07:28:38 AM
ok if we are playing at semantics - first twin engined panther i think :-D  and they made a prototype v-twin in the early 1900's but the war put a stop to production apparently. im slowly gathering bits to build a v-twin panther engine myself - panhead bottom end, panther barrels & upwards


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Tofu on June 09, 2010, 10:37:07 AM
Who was the colourful character that raced a Panther sidecar outfit in the Uk vintage events?  Chris Williams :?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: willieworld on June 09, 2010, 11:04:34 AM
there is no pushrod class in vintage---everyone runs in the same class--flatheads get a 1/3 displacement break---your class will be    A-VBG   the record at bonneville is  142.020 mph ---you would be better off running in the A-PBG class the record is only 104.970 mph             willie buchta


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: oz on June 09, 2010, 11:16:45 AM
Will the English invasion be at BUB or Speedweek?  I will definitely figure out a way to get there, either way. 

Speedweek is what we are aiming for but if we win the lottery we will be staying for BUB or that is what the main OZCO contingent Chris (Desperate) on his Indian,Dave(Buzz Lightbeer) with an EFE Suzuki PJ (Beerbellykelly) with a Vello,Vinny Dave with a funnily enough Vincent or is it a Vinton you get the picture,Another few of PJs mates with an old Bonny and myself with the CBR and the Jawa if I get enough time to build it, phew are trying for and oops Sumo with his Panthers,I reckon the container is going to be full!

TTFN Oz


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 09, 2010, 11:19:55 AM
thats a great help cheers - its my first attempt at getting through these class numbers

and 104.5 - a sensible number for a panther powered machine to aim at  :cheers:


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: oz on June 09, 2010, 11:26:22 AM
What you doin on the computer get back in the garage tick tock tick tock!

Willie is a top bloke to ask for rule and tech questions I reckon he reads the rule book to get to sleep at night.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 09, 2010, 11:28:29 AM
im at work still :-D

surely im not the only one that uses company time to draw bike parts up n do research...


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: dw230 on June 09, 2010, 11:49:34 AM
"to run in the 1350 cc class you will have to be under 1350 cc---not counting a .020 overbore and in vintage a .050 overbore "

Good, I'm educated. Carry on.

DW


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Stan Back on June 09, 2010, 04:34:06 PM
Dan --

In motorcycles, "displacement" numbers are only used for classification purposes.  You were confused as you mistakenly thought they had to do with actual displacement.

Stan


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on June 09, 2010, 10:05:41 PM
Sumo, you can get some inspiration from a copy of Iron Horse Issue #130.  That is this month's issue and it is on the newsstands here in America.  It has an article about Paul Friebus, a fellow from South Africa, and his Harley flatheads.  He is running them at just under 140 mph at Speedweek.  That is amazing, all considered.

Maybe it would save time and money to develop a single engine Panther, then, after everything is perfected, to build another engine for the double.  This would save a lot of time and money.  Just a suggestion. 


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Stainless1 on June 09, 2010, 10:18:19 PM
Dan, it is hard enough to keep the car rules straight.... you needn't trouble yourself with the ever changing bike rules...  luckily for us, we seem to swing both ways....  :-o  no not like that.... :|  I mean cars and bikes, sometimes even with the same motor.
Back to topic, looking forward to seeing this one, keep the pics coming


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: pookie on June 09, 2010, 11:03:18 PM
Hi SUMO,  Hey I like your avatar, it looks like the guy from Hawaii who made yokozuna. I am I correct?  Also like your project..... Good luck, Mike R.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 10, 2010, 04:33:11 AM
Maybe it would save time and money to develop a single engine Panther, then, after everything is perfected, to build another engine for the double.  This would save a lot of time and money.  Just a suggestion. 

yup - im throwing this one together quick and dirty like, out of spares in the shed so i have a single engine testbed that will fit on the rolling road i have access to. the other panther i have at the minute i converted to a trike last year so solo bike is needed too  :-D  one engine first for it get dialed make mistakes, then build 2 for the twin bike

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/panther%20for%20sale/IMG_0120.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Calkins on June 10, 2010, 06:33:35 AM
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/panther%20for%20sale/IMG_0120.jpg)

NEAT!


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on June 10, 2010, 07:10:13 AM
Whoa!  That'll draw a few stares from onlookers.  Springer and hardtail and yet a four-spoke (not five, not three, but four) front wheel, and solid discs and a real sissy bar and a saddle seat and . . . and . . . and ...

Nope, I haven't seen a bike just like that in at least a long time.  Nice -- get it running and show us more pictures.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 10, 2010, 08:27:37 AM
Whoa!  That'll draw a few stares from onlookers.  Springer and hardtail and yet a four-spoke (not five, not three, but four) front wheel, and solid discs and a real sissy bar and a saddle seat and . . . and . . . and ...

Nope, I haven't seen a bike just like that in at least a long time.  Nice -- get it running and show us more pictures.

thanks, too kind - its basically shed spares that i gathered over years and eventually had enough for a bike...

i cant fit this one onto the rolling road so NEEDED to make a solo out of the bits to help with the twin ... :-D

i said i had a bad panther habit...
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/panther/bf2695b8.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Calkins on June 10, 2010, 09:48:28 AM
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/panther/bf2695b8.jpg)

Double Neat!


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on June 11, 2010, 01:51:28 AM
Sumo, that trike has a distinctive round clutch cover.  Is that a sort of Panther/Vincent engine and trans setup?  It kinda looks like a Vincent Comet made on a working man's budget.  That is a nice job.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 11, 2010, 04:01:27 AM
panther actually shares common gearbox with a vincent [burman BAP]

i dont think it was so much a "working mans" vincent - thats pretty funny really.. ill mention it to a vincent owner - they'd linch me... the trike is pretty much a stock panther m100 as far back as the seat then it got fun

the british bike industry has a lot of shared parts over various marks back in the early years. think lucas bht etc on the mag side of things and it just follows through to gearboxes


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 12, 2010, 06:04:08 AM
started on the drive side - got the actual drive system sorted from front to back in my mind just need to fabricate so no great shakes hopefully

here lies my main problem

supercharger runs the wrong  direction... centre blower pulley to centre of front engine pulley is about 11" [blower just propped on angle iron at the minute for measuring purposes]

to reverse its direction i was going to just run solid gears, simple thinks I - but they would be HUGE i now work out - and these engines have enough flywheel effect as it is.

i dont really want to go the crossed belt route

4 gears in a row would eat into my projected 40ish bhp [see why nobody has gone with a panther for speed yet?  :-D ]

what else options are there? oz was saying that you can reverse the supercharger internals but its a mare to time up right although a few people seem to be running them in backwards too with reasonable success [ http://www.thefang.co.uk/eaton.htm ]

any ideas / insights appreciated

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/P6090002.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Peter Jack on June 12, 2010, 07:44:26 AM
If you have access to a machine shop, building a gearbox using a pair of quick change gears should be fairly simple and relatively cheap.

Pete


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: octane on June 12, 2010, 09:25:54 AM

supercharger runs the wrong  direction...

Hi Sumo !

Brilliant build. A bit wacky, but to me; the wackier the better.
Tell me: what supercharger do you intend to use ?
Is it an EATON , as the one shown in your link ?

Cheers


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 12, 2010, 09:51:07 AM
hey octane - yea its the eaton in the pic

ive been thinking while pottering in the garage the last few hours and i think im going to have a crack at reversing the direction the blower drives. worst that can happen is i knacker it... it was cheapish anyways - its the right way to do it then i can just run another belt up to it


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: octane on June 12, 2010, 12:16:45 PM
hey octane -
My name is Lars

.-)


Quote
yea its the eaton in the pic
OK I see. So it has those fancy efficient screw-type rotors.
My blower has the 'straight'-type and is reversible.

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/blsaml.jpg)

Quote
ive been thinking while pottering in the garage the last few hours and i think im going to have a crack at reversing the direction the blower drives. worst that can happen is i knacker it... it was cheapish anyways - its the right way to do it then i can just run another belt up to it
Probably a good idea and it doesn't appear to be terribly complicated.
Sumo; please PM me, and tell me your email-address.
I have a file on supercharging motorcycles that I'd like to send to you.
Might be helpful.





PS
Please be careful what you do.
A friend of mine recently put a rather large blower on his Norton Atlas.
He just send me these pics

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/norton.jpg)

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/norton4.jpg)

PHROUUUF KAR POW !!!

...one seriously blown Norton









Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 12, 2010, 12:30:58 PM
cheers lars

thats a nasty looking engine failure . im looking at fairly low boost

i saw those aisin superchargers but they are always beyond my budget. the eaton is a car take-off with delivery mileage on it so its basically new but got it cheap.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: octane on June 12, 2010, 12:46:53 PM
cheers lars

thats a nasty looking engine failure . im looking at fairly low boost
Me too !!!

Quote
i saw those aisin superchargers but they are always beyond my budget. the eaton is a car take-off with delivery mileage...
I absolutely sure that the EATON is a much better and vastly more efficient supercharger.
Unfortunately they don't come small enough for my tiny 600cc bike.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 12, 2010, 01:25:51 PM
thanks for the email - will print and read and learn  :cheers:


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: JimL on June 12, 2010, 11:20:39 PM
Jerry Magnuson has a "countershaft" setup that's used on the Vette kits (with Eaton blower).  It gets the blower belt to the other side, without having to reverse the rotation method.  Pretty simple setup, and known reliable.

Fun project!!
JimL


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: octane on June 13, 2010, 02:52:54 AM
Jerry Magnuson has a "countershaft" setup that's used on the Vette kits (with Eaton blower).  It gets the blower belt to the other side, without having to reverse the rotation method. 

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/vette.jpg)



Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on June 13, 2010, 08:29:17 AM
Eaton M24 might be suitable if you slow it down a bit.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on June 16, 2010, 12:13:33 AM
Sumo and Lars, do you guys have any formulae to figure out the correct supercharger size for a bike?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: octane on June 16, 2010, 01:09:06 AM
Yes WW.

Here's one:

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/Blowcal.jpg)
From an old book "Supercharging Cars and Motorcycles" by Maurice Brierly




...and I can highly recommend studying these brilliant pages
which also contains a formula for finding the right blower:
( note that there are several pages )

Supercharger Installation on Older Motorcycles (http://victorylibrary.com/supercharger/super-c.htm)

written by none other than Mr. "Panic" who posted right above you here.



.
PS: Wobbly, please send me a PM stating your email address.
There's a file on this subject that I'd like to send you.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on June 16, 2010, 09:19:35 PM
Thanks, Lars.  A PM is on its way.  I do not have the money to put on a blower now.  I am learning from these posts so I can do it right when the time comes.

The Norton blow up was not unusual and I saw it on BSA's and Triumphs, too.  One thing I learned a long time ago was to 1)  install new cylinder studs at rebuilds, 2) check the nut tightness often, and 3)  use the factory torque values.  Loose nuts or too much power can cause the problem you see. 

My old bikes and the ones I built never saw the salt, but they were raced.  It was common practice to check the cylinder nut torques between races.  This was done until I was sure all of the nuts would stay tight.  Imagining myself racing an old brit bike at Bonneville, I would check the nut tightness before a run down the salt and between runs, too.     


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on June 17, 2010, 09:50:49 AM
Attention Rex and everyone else:

The email address of each Forum member is (usually, at his own discretion) available  as part of the information on the far left side of each post.  There'll be a tiny envelope -- which needs merely to have the cursor put on it to display the email addy, and clicked upon to open a mail blank.  WWalrus's posts DO have this on 'em -- so you can find out his email address without having to ask for it.

Similarly you can find out the website a member suggests as his own, and you can also lick on the icon next to the envelope to automatically bring up a form for PMs (not PMS -- no formula needed for that!  We all know how to get her in a cranky mood, don't we?).  And so on -- check out the various icons to see the features in the Forum software.

OK, back to the regularly scheduled topic.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: octane on June 17, 2010, 10:21:31 AM
Thanks, Lars. 

You're welcome !

Quote
..... 1)  install new cylinder studs at rebuilds,...

Yes'Sir !
. I did just that

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/ed3c5641.jpg)

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/bffe5726.jpg)



Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 18, 2010, 07:58:40 AM
im not near as quick as chris - i dont do frame building...

just been doodling at work killing time before i drop that parts off with the frame builder next week - cant wait

rear frame geometry needs sorting but im leaving that to the experts

exhaust looks like it will prove a challenge with the supercharger positioning but im sure i can sort something with it, maybe just switch it to the other side of the bike, there are 2 exhaust ports to pick from [panther basically decided to try make the bike look a bit like the more fashionable twins of the time so they just added an extra exhaust port and ran an exhaust either side of the bike - why change an engine design eh??!, thing is - it only needs 1 to breath right, so at least it gives options]

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/twin3.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: oz on June 25, 2010, 12:11:51 PM
Whats the Crack then dude any progress yet?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 25, 2010, 05:03:48 PM
Progress is I drOpped all the bits off with briz the frame guy this morning. Looking at 3-4 weeks and I have a roller ready for me to do my thing with it. It's a long jaunt to Norfolk but I'm verry happy


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 09, 2010, 01:59:18 PM
got some progress pics today

im like a dog with 2 dicks - so chuffed how its coming together

briz has had a LOT of input on the frame and changed things around for me to make things better / stronger etc. also he has done me a lovely little sponsorship deal and is doing the frame out of chrome-moly at no extra cost

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/sumo3.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/sumo2.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Glen on July 09, 2010, 02:01:11 PM
Nice frame jig, build looking good


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: desperate on July 13, 2010, 12:51:51 PM
Briz works from a small-ish purpose built workshop at the end of the garden, and has been building top class bikes for years & years, he's one clever bloke, and rarely advertises. Maybe one day he'll find time to finish his Daimler V8 hemi bike.
Sumo, isn't it a good feeling to see your ideas materialise, it's looking really good mate.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 13, 2010, 12:57:41 PM
its great to see the frame coming together after the tribulations. and im 100% sure its with the right man now. i just cant wait to get my hands on it and start with the machine work mating the 2 engines / blower up.

getting the pics last week really re-lit the fire for the project. i was getting a bit jaded with the previous goings on.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 13, 2010, 02:40:20 PM
and more progress today

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/sumo4.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/sumo8.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/sumo7.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/sumo5.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/sumo6.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on July 13, 2010, 08:59:15 PM
The bike is coming together nice.  I like that engine mounting setup with the plates.  It will allow you to run different motors without needing to build new frames.  You can simply redo the plates to match the new engine(s).


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: grumm441 on July 14, 2010, 12:19:23 AM
Sumo
That frame is looking realy good
G


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: 38flattie on July 16, 2010, 08:31:13 AM
Sumo, I know nothing about the Panther- been a Harley all my riding days.

But I do know I like projects that have lumps that no one else runs, like your project. This is a super cool project, and I hope I can see it when you are over here!

GOOD LUCK!


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 21, 2010, 03:23:29 AM
and we have lift-off... frame man is done, i collect this weekend

happy days

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/sumo15.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/sumo12.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/sumo13.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/sumo14.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: octane on July 21, 2010, 05:48:57 AM
Fanphåggingtastic ! ! !

Congratulations on a brilliant job !



Love it !


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: RidgeRunner on July 21, 2010, 07:00:42 AM
Looks fast sitting still!  All the best for timeslips to match.
With a soft spot in my heart for thumpers I'm biased.  With two in there I'm following this journey closely, thanks for keeping us posted.

                      Ed


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: octane on July 21, 2010, 07:04:05 AM
PS:

Sumo: besides the other stuff I send you , you might find some inspiration
for your blower-intake-piping here:

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/CIMG5153.jpg)

Click here for full size image:

http://s207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/?action=view&current=CIMG5153.jpg

It's a copy a friend of mine gave to me, so I have
no idea what the source is....or if the author is correct


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 21, 2010, 07:20:45 AM
thanks lars - one more for the folder

and thanks for the compliments - im loving how its looking, i just need to work out where the hell to put a fuel tank now - dont want to break up the top tube line now really



Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: octane on July 21, 2010, 08:30:01 AM
just need to work out where the hell to put a fuel tank now - dont want to break up the top tube line now really

How about like these I saw at BUB 2008.
Two aluminum tubes. One each side.

You could place them right next to your lower top-tube, so the upper tube is still fully visible

(http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq252/octane98bonneville/DSC_1601.jpg)

(http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq252/octane98bonneville/DSC_1523.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 21, 2010, 08:56:13 AM
yea - thats the way im possibly leaning - i need to get hold of things and have a play. see what works best [and see what i like the look of too - im vain too you know - going slow on a twin engine bike its going to have to look good :-D ]


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: charlie101 on July 21, 2010, 02:22:33 PM
I guess you have better control of fuel pressure and flow with a fuel pump, and with that you also have more options of places for the fuel tank. Burt Munroe style tank comes to mind easily then.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: oz on July 22, 2010, 03:08:42 AM
Looking good fella!

There is a get together in sept with the 2012 team to discuss shipping/containers/dates and who what is going and logistics on the other side of the pond if you are interested in jumping on the ozco band wagon.

Upto yourself really it can be done solo but it is a headache and you would be very welcome,I will give you a bell a bit closer to the date.

ttfn Oz


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 22, 2010, 03:34:56 AM
def give me a shout, dont know if ill be done/running right by 2012 or what by then so depends on all sorts really

feel free to pop down for a warm garage beer and a nosey anytime


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: grumm441 on July 22, 2010, 05:05:10 AM
def give me a shout, dont know if ill be done/running right by 2012 or what by then so depends on all sorts really

feel free to pop down for a warm garage beer and a nosey anytime

I always thought that was just an urban myth about you blokes and warm beer :cheers:
G


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 22, 2010, 05:12:28 AM
no space for a fridge in the garage so the beer is whatever temperature it happens to be sitting in a dark corner under the bench - its summer so its warmish at the minute, in winter its nicely chilled


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 24, 2010, 04:06:45 PM
collected today - threw a coat of primer on it and then back together - the frame is cock on. on re-assemble everything just slotted together not bending or hammering or any other Bentley most custom stuff has to deal with

was happy before - even more happy now

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/P7220009.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/P7220001.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/P7220004.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: grumm441 on July 24, 2010, 09:44:34 PM
Nice
Nice

no space for a fridge in the garage so the beer is whatever temperature it happens to be sitting in a dark corner under the bench - its summer so its warmish at the minute, in winter its nicely chilled

I thought it was because Lucas made fridges
G


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 24, 2010, 11:04:41 PM
Sumo -

I should have warned you.  Anytime anybody posts about anything British on these boards, one of two things will inevitably occur.

It will either degenerate into twisted sexual innuendo or a Lucas joke - and usually the latter.

So while Grummy has steered this thread straight into the gutter, let me attempt to put it back on the high road.

That's a nice pair of jugs. :cheers:

Over and out . . .


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Constant Kinetics on July 24, 2010, 11:50:28 PM
Sumo,
     There's almost a beauty in the uniqueness of this project. Please keep posting pictures. So where do you find all those Panther parts?
                                                                                  -Chad-


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: WhizzbangK.C. on July 24, 2010, 11:56:08 PM
In reality, all Lucas jokes are severely twisted sexual innuendo, cause if you're farking around with Lucas stuff, you're screwed and may as well laugh about it.

Sumo -

I should have warned you.  Anytime anybody posts about anything British on these boards, one of two things will inevitably occur.

It will either degenerate into twisted sexual innuendo or a Lucas joke - and usually the latter.

So while Grummy has steered this thread straight into the gutter, let me attempt to put it back on the high road.

That's a nice pair of jugs. :cheers:

Over and out . . .


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: octane on July 25, 2010, 03:24:39 AM
Sumo,
     There's almost a beauty in the uniqueness of this project...

There's almost a beauty in the uniqueness of this project


.-)

.



Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 25, 2010, 12:56:11 PM
no lucas here, as for sexual innuendo - building a super pussy like this i expect no less

mum and dad left a few hours ago, dad left the mag adapter he started for me on an adult size lathe - i finished things off on my little lathe - drops in dandy

im going to run 2 single fire mags but this one i had on the shelf to experiment with [ignore the lovely blue clutch spring holding mag up couple of holes need drilling and helicoiling]

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/P7230002.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/P7230001.jpg)

also im looking at drive side measurements over a cider or 2 - looks like i have plenty of room to play with. about 2 1/2 inches by quick eyeball measurements

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/P7230003.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: AHG on July 25, 2010, 02:08:08 PM
Hello,
Your machine seems to be coming together well.

Just a brief observation regarding your magneto.
Many years ago the clear mag top was the "IN" thing, and still is aesthetically very cool;
as you can see the components working.

However, it also acts on the same principle as a plant terrarium, and will produce much condensation,
caused by the Sun's rays coming through, that can eventually begin to drip onto the points
and all other magneto internals.
A regular black bakelite cover would be much better, and less troublesome in the long run.

 :cheers:
Drew Gatewood




Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 25, 2010, 02:30:16 PM
yea - popular conception on clear mag caps is that but im still unconvinced. i have done tens of thousands of miles on clear mag cap on my shovel and no problems at all. im of the opinion that its just because you can see it people flap about a tiny bit of condensation - i think you get the same in a heat sink black coloured cap but its hidden so out of sight out of mind...

having said that - i will be running 2 single fire mags anyways on this thing [thats my spare shovel mag on it just to work out how to do it before spending cash on parts], and i think you can only get black caps with the single fires

thanks for the heads up though


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 26, 2010, 04:10:34 PM
tank thinkings

looking at this and i have a nice space here if i use a fuel pump. made a quick poly-board rough up and it fits nice and holds a decent amount of fuel

the rule book seems really easy going on fuel tanks - all i have seen is "the gas tank shall be mounted and constructed in a workmanship-like manner"

can i make it out of anything? im thinking carbon-kevlar. my dad has just finished a 125 GP race tank and it looks the bollocks, much easier for me to do funny shapes that way rather than making it out of metal

any ruling on mounting position or material?

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/-1.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on July 26, 2010, 05:50:16 PM
Alcohol fuel is mentioned in a previous post.  This is probably a good choice.  It takes a lot of fuel to run an alky bike compared to a gasoline burner.  It is a good idea to make sure you have enough volume.  Fuel sloshing from side to side can be noticeable in a big flat bottomed tank up high.  A baffle plate down the center can help.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Gu11ett on July 26, 2010, 09:15:50 PM
Remember SCTA--5 liter minimum capacity.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Nortonist 592 on July 26, 2010, 09:51:39 PM
The clear cover on the mag won't be a problem if its a Lucas mag.  There won't be any spark to see anyway. 




What??????   You were expecting a constructive remark?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 27, 2010, 03:27:14 AM
Remember SCTA--5 liter minimum capacity.

even now you have told me that i cant find it in the book [is there a more detailed rule book than the DL envelope size one i got off SCTA website?]

tank is about 5L so i'll have a measure and can change to suit no problem if thats the only issue with it

The clear cover on the mag won't be a problem if its a Lucas mag.  There won't be any spark to see anyway.
What???   You were expecting a constructive remark?

not at all - its a hunt mag  :-D


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 27, 2010, 03:29:26 AM
Alcohol fuel is mentioned in a previous post.  This is probably a good choice.  It takes a lot of fuel to run an alky bike compared to a gasoline burner.  It is a good idea to make sure you have enough volume.  Fuel sloshing from side to side can be noticeable in a big flat bottomed tank up high.  A baffle plate down the center can help.

the only alcohol was that that goes down my neck  :cheers: - im looking to run on plain old petrol.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 27, 2010, 07:15:59 AM
the only alcohol was that that goes down my neck  

That's referred to as "assembly lube". :cheers:

This build is too hip.  Keep the posts coming. 


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: rockstar on July 27, 2010, 01:49:07 PM
There is one thing about the gasoline at Bonneville,it ain't plain,it comes in a variety of flavours and octanes,if i remember right we used VP110 and when filling the bike sitting on it,my eyes started watering and there was this nice smell of pear drops,so be carefull what you ask for :-D as they have some serious oxygenated gasoline.

David


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Nortonist 592 on July 27, 2010, 10:16:32 PM
Alcohol fuel is mentioned in a previous post.  This is probably a good choice.  It takes a lot of fuel to run an alky bike compared to a gasoline burner.  It is a good idea to make sure you have enough volume.  Fuel sloshing from side to side can be noticeable in a big flat bottomed tank up high.  A baffle plate down the center can help.

WW makes a good point.   I run a replica 5 gal. tank on my Norton.  It is a cheap replica and unbaffled.  If I let the level drop too low the fuel "dances" and leans the motor out noticibly.   At first I thought Lucas had gone into the fuel tank business until I figured it out.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: grumm441 on July 27, 2010, 11:31:10 PM
At first I thought Lucas had gone into the fuel tank business until I figured it out.

I hate it when (cold) beer comes out my nose and covers my keyboard
G


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: oz on August 01, 2010, 06:19:59 AM
You aint got time to ride around on yer Harley I bet you went to the Cafe on the Hemel road for brekky!!! Get back in that garage and twirl em spanners!!

Will try to get over when I get back from my Hols.

TTFN Oz


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on August 01, 2010, 06:31:24 AM
bet i didnt - was on way home from the hotrod hayride... full weekend off - but was collecting a new clutch basket for this from someone there, so not entirely un-related

now i can start to measure properly the drive joining, and i need to work out a bearing system to support the outer end of a 3" pulley - thats the afternoons plan of attack anyhows


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: oz on August 01, 2010, 09:36:33 AM
I did you get a great fry up there yummy!!


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on August 16, 2010, 04:03:48 AM
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/P8130005.jpg)
got a few hours on the stump puller over the weekend. its slowly coming together. drive pulleys are half machined. i hacked up a rotted out old kawasaki set of pipes to give me some bends to play with for free and the simple exhaust solution looks like it will work nicely - 2 into 1 running below timing covers, front pipe extended over blower.
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/P8130004.jpg)
also got sorted in my head the routing for the blower. SU mounted on pressure side [rough mounted in pic] then long plenum cylinder running on right side of engines, spurring off to 2 cylinders. sounds simple eh... i bet it isnt to make work


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: beerbellykelly on August 16, 2010, 03:50:23 PM
two pumping pussies bellowing down the great white dyno-superb,fast work there sumo,looking great and functional,always loved the panthers.-see you in the wheatsheaf when oz gets back from monaco.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: 55chevr on August 16, 2010, 07:28:26 PM
Are you planning on blowing through the Skinners Union?


Joe


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on August 17, 2010, 12:56:16 AM
That be the plan at the minute


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: 55chevr on August 17, 2010, 06:06:33 AM
That is going to be a real challenge ... SU are old design technology and you are trying to do a lot with them ... Joe


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on August 17, 2010, 06:27:32 AM
old tech maybe but bloody good and fairly simple carbs. [and lets be honest - panthers are beyond old technology... they were old technology in the 50's when these 2 motors were made]

ive not tried to blow trough one before but it sounds doable - if it doesnt work ill look at changing to a different carb setup, who knows what though, im liking the SU plan at the minute but worst case it goes on the shelf. ive not done anything with superchargers before so its all a learning curve, but thats half the fun

http://www.triumphexperience.com/article/how-to-blow-through-an-su.html


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on August 17, 2010, 08:23:03 AM
Vizard makes some excellent comments in the Mini book about the factory turbo Metro, and how the fuel curve under boost can be addressed with a simple fabricated part in the air-horn.

I'm not sure how to run the plumbing, but you're inviting fuel drop-out by running plenum volume after the carb, especially if the X-section goes up. You may find yourself with a wet cylinder due to droplets running down the easiest path, and trying to jet lean to dry it up, etc.
I'd rather see storage before the SU, and short entries.
IMHO since the plenum volume is a buffer (not flow capacity), it need not be in-line with the compressor discharge to air-horn path, but can be suspended in parallel (as long as the connection is large enough, larger than the area of the main transfer with radiused intersect), or even a bottle. This last allows very rapid plenum vol changes, like for dyno work.

(wrestling with my own junk: H-D side-valve twin, 3-7/16" × 5" with chain-driven M-45 and single blow-through CV)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on August 17, 2010, 08:45:29 AM
thanks for your info - ill look into what i can do to get the plenum volume on the other side of the carb - assuming i can just use a larger dia tube thats easy, but would that slow the speed of air flow? if i understand what you mean re the bottle you are talking of like a piggy-back plenum on the tube going to the carb. with the intake to the carb being long i assume this in itself be counted as  goodly part of the plenum volume

as for short entires - there lies my headache - the inlets on the engine are 18.75" apart, both facing backwards

i considered 2 carbs off 1 blower but just cant get my head round that at all if its even possible - as ive said before - very much at the lower end of a learning curve on the supercharger side of things

thanks for the words of advice


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on August 17, 2010, 10:13:08 AM
would that slow the speed of air flow
It's only air, it can completely stop because it speeds up again at the carb (it should have a gradual taper to do this, of course to avoid any buffeting).
The plenum volume consists of everything from the rotor's inter-lobe volume in the case, all tubes right up to the intake valves.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on August 25, 2010, 03:24:30 PM
spent a bloody lifetime machining up the 2 main pulleys, crappy phone pics coz my camera got wet on a run last weekend sorry

blank pulleys from the bearing shop with just a pilot hole. machined the teeth off a couple of sprockets so i could keep the taper part [steel was hard as hell, my little lathe was only just up to it - the neighbors loved me doing that job...]. then a fit into the back of the pulleys for them, large main bore for nut, then the other end for a bearing and milled out for puller bolt clearance

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/CIMG0001.jpg)
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/CIMG0002.jpg)
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/CIMG0003.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on August 31, 2010, 07:59:48 AM
the good news is that the belt arrived at the weekend and fits, cut one for now just because the motors dont turn so i cant walk the belt on but it will fit real nice without the need for a tensioner

just need to measure up the belt to the clutch and it will start to look like something even if it isnt yet.

found another M01 mag too so thats on its way to me now, will convert those 2 to electronic and im golden with a LUCAS  :evil: dyno on one of them for charge

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/P8280010b.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on August 31, 2010, 10:10:40 PM
. . . and im golden with a LUCAS  :evil: dyno on one of them for charge

So you plan to incorporate a fire suppression system on the bike, too, eh? :wink:

I just got done bolting up a Lucas alternator myself, so I probably shouldn't throw stones.

This bike is too cool for the room!



Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on September 06, 2010, 03:12:52 AM
i just made up the brake side of things, really simple stuff, just like panthers... whittled down a lump of flat stock, machined up some top-hats, welded in toe peg, made bracket etc and its ready for welding on when i decide roughly what angle i want the lever at.

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/-1-1.jpg)

and the tank i bought for the '33 panther chopper got dropped on last night too - i like it on there, also means i have all the space behind the seat for electrics now im having a thumb button electric shifter piston up under there taking some space...

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/P9020005.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: oz on September 06, 2010, 11:45:11 AM
Hi fella
Why have an electric shifter its just one more that could go wrong, Have you still got a bad foot dude?
Oz


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on September 06, 2010, 12:03:28 PM
eyup bud - foots ok 90% of the time now just tweaks if i twist it wrong or something - if its not right in another 2 years ill be pissed  :-D

1 more thing to go wrong, i agree, but the layout of the bike would mean a real heath robinson lever pushing a lever pulling cable pushing who knows what type of setup that would give either sloppy shifts or miss-shifts. this way i get a good clean up and down shift.

i have kliktronic shift setup from a sidecar i had a few years ago [that flatbed sidecar] so can fit that onto this for next to nothing. kliktronik are pretty bullet-proof. they are basically just an electro-magnet in a tube so not all that breakable.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on September 06, 2010, 03:08:25 PM
Sumo, some advice based on what I saw last week.  Figure out a way to control your boost with different blower drive pulleys, etc.  Make an adjustable blow-off valve.  Incorporate gages as needed to monitor boost. 


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on September 16, 2010, 03:38:03 AM
how do you have an adjustable blow off on a supercharger? would it not just sound like a road sweeper permanantly hissing when motor running? im looking at having a gauge for each engine [even though its off one manifold]. as far as i can work out for a supercharger you have to change pulleys to adjust boost - someone school me on that for sure - it would be nice to have some sort of turn button simple adjustment

quick dig about and got the kliktronic off an old sidecar i had last night.

need to have a work out of angle of the dangle but this is pretty close i think. should be an easy fit. just a tab on the frame. they are just an electromagnet so pretty bulletproof, the way the linkage was looking like it would have to go round corners, past frame tubes etc this is more reliable then a heath robinson mechanical setup.

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/photo-1-2.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Nortonist 592 on September 16, 2010, 11:20:12 PM
[quote

So you plan to incorporate a fire suppression system on the bike, too, eh?
[/quote]


When did Lucas ever cause anything to ignite?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on September 19, 2010, 12:34:29 AM
A bypass hose from the pressure side of the charger to the intake side with a valve to control the flow.  With the valve open, you are recycling air through the charger and reducing its efficiency, and consequently, boost.

 


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: 55chevr on September 19, 2010, 07:33:11 AM
Lucas can ignite any combustible outside an engine. I have seen a dancing arc from a Lucas mag across a new Lucas cap. That coupled with Amal carb leaking should resulted in complete immolition of my trusty old BSA. Wish I had that bike today. I always enjoyed the smell gasoline on my hands from the ticklers. Lucas is the inventor of the short circuit and still hold the patent. I believe Amal invented the fuel leak and S&S has to pay license fee to Amal for allowing them to copy.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on September 19, 2010, 12:03:00 PM
Is that a variant of "Ghia invented rust, and licensed it to Mercedes"?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: 55chevr on September 19, 2010, 12:33:05 PM
I havent heard the Ghia one but Amal is one of the first to discover how to make fuel leak and S&S now has it perfected. 


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Nortonist 592 on September 19, 2010, 01:05:42 PM
I have seen a dancing arc from a Lucas mag across a new Lucas cap.

Yeah right!  Betcha saw Santa Claus last Christmas too! : - )


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: 55chevr on September 19, 2010, 03:22:43 PM
No I missed Santa but I did see the Easter Bunny once.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: oz on October 05, 2010, 11:39:04 AM
If its any help
2.137-1
140mm stock bott pulley/stock top 65.5
gives 12psi-ish @ 7000 rpm crank speed


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: oz on October 09, 2010, 08:15:50 AM
Santa Pod this sunday, Dave (Buzz Lightbeer) will be there its an all bike meet. Can give you a lift if you are up for it.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on October 10, 2010, 01:25:28 AM
Only just saw this Oz. Man fixing my roof this morning. I'll try get up this afternoon


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on November 01, 2010, 04:27:54 AM
picked up the main bits of laser cutting for the primary this weekend

some time in the future i have a mammoth machining weekeend of dullness - i need about 20 threaded spacers of various lengths to tie all this together - thats going to be a pain... but it needs doing

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/PA290003.jpg)
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/PA290002.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: RidgeRunner on November 01, 2010, 07:30:13 AM
That trick dyno looks real interesting, any info on it to share?  :-D

           Ed


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: JimL on November 01, 2010, 01:44:07 PM
Not sure I'd do the bypass loop on a supercharger....intake air temp gets high pretty quick.  I used that trick for controlling Eatons during automatic trans upshift and approaching redline (production based cars) to prevent breaking the engine (when the ECM runs past the window for KNK control).  Unfortunately, if your driver spends much time holding high RPM (while looping the airflow), the knock sensors break anyway....shortly before the pistons. 

I still chuckle about the day Montoya pulled a pace car into the pits (he had "celebrity rides duty" that day), saying "Jeem, Jeem, I have NOOOO POWER until six-thousand, two-hundred RPM....then BEEG POWER and CHECK ENGINE light on!"  Not thinking well, in the heat of the moment, I parallel jumpered the remaining "live" Knock Sensor into both banks of the ECM, then we rotated him back into that car. 

Pistons were gone in about 3 laps. :oops:  He was a real gentleman and didn't blame me....but it was my goof.

Lots of detonation when that intake air gets preheated over and over.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: oz on November 01, 2010, 02:52:59 PM
If you need anymore laser cutting give me a shout we can do upto 6mm mild at work ,,,,, Gratis.
oz


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on November 01, 2010, 03:17:49 PM
oz - i probably will bud - my contact has moved jobs next week so i cant get mates rates there any more

as for supercharges, slight change of plan - although it will be suercharged eventually - im getting it running normally aspirated for the first stage get the drive line all de-bugged first then supercharge. gives me chance to learn more too before i commit anything to steel


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on November 02, 2010, 12:10:28 AM
Sumo, I remember mentioning the bypass.  My background with blowers was all in industrial/agricultural applications as an apprentice.  Many years ago.  They were a relatively common way for us to regulate output power and engine rpm independently.  Basically, they were a large tube connecting the blower inlet to the blower outlet.  A gate valve or similar was on the tube.  We would shut the valve all of the way to allow full boost.  No bypass flow would occur.  We would open the valve all of the way to reduce blower efficiency.  A lot of air would recirculate around and through the blower.  Usually the valve was at some intermediate setting.  The way we had these set up, they altered the entire performance curve.  They would not "kick in at high rpm."

It is a long way from Utah to England and it must cost a fortune to get there and back.  A fellow might have the urge to make a few low-boost runs to gain some experience, make adjustments, get a few timing slips to bring home, and then close the bypass and run for the glory.

Beer can magnetos?       


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on November 02, 2010, 12:14:43 PM
IIRC the stock Eaton valve isn't a pressure release, it's a bypass under high vacuum so that air can go from the TB directly to the IM without passing through the rotors.
An external BOV allows testing max boost w/o risking the engine - just pressurize the system and play with it (although it probably won't kick on/off at the same point in real time). I'd put it as close to the carbs as possible, so that pressure spikes at the rotors won't upset it, and you have the benefit of the plenum volume as a buffer.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on November 11, 2010, 11:14:02 PM
Sumo, I just read JimL's post about intake gas temp.  The industrial and agricultural stuff we used the bypasses on were very low stress engines running at a fraction of the speed of a race engine.  My advice is probably not good for a race engine.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on December 02, 2010, 07:26:27 AM
i just about have the drive side of things done and machined up [no pics yet]

im onto thinking exhaust - cant decide if i should go 2 into 1 or separate pipes. my understanding is on a twin cylinder bike 2 into 1 is better performance with its scavenging, do i treat it as 2 motors or with them being effectively joined a the crank as a twin cylinder? anyone any thoughts or logical argument either way? im falling towards 2into1 at the minute like B

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/twinpantherexhaust.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: saltwheels262 on December 02, 2010, 10:55:50 AM
if both cyls. fire at the same time,--
i would not join the systems together.

franey


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on December 02, 2010, 11:02:19 AM
will be firing 360 apart for a kick off, dont know what ill end with but it wont be at the same time - that would be like trying to ride a jackhammer


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 02, 2010, 09:46:16 PM
The Triumph fires at 360 degree intervals and it works great with a collector.  The header pipes upstream from the collector are the same length.  Both cylinders respond to the collector the same way at the same rpm.  The engine is in balance.

The collector on the 360 degree firing Panther engines might be problematic.  The header pipes are at different lengths where they are joined.  Header length affects power characteristics.  The collector setup might help one engine at the expense of the other and create an imbalance in the system.   


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on December 02, 2010, 11:25:41 PM
Yup - getting the primaries equal is fun.
As Walter Kaaden said 50 years ago (paraphrased) "you'll know when the pipe is correct when it burns your leg, drags on the ground, and requires at least one major component to be relocated".
I'd use 2 megaphones - they're far easier to adjust after construction by adding extensions to the primaries or swapping to alternate cone shapes.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 03, 2010, 12:53:16 AM
This is not intended to disrupt Sumo's thread.  The issue of the English magazine The Classic Motor Cycle on American newsstands (November 2010) has a feature article on a restored Panther.   There are a lot of pictures.  Now the thread is returned to Sumo...


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Kansas Bad Man on December 03, 2010, 10:27:48 AM
will be firing 360 apart for a kick off, dont know what ill end with but it wont be at the same time - that would be like trying to ride a jackhammer


Howdy Sumo,

The hardest thing in building a twin engine motorcycle is to couple the engines together.  I personally have been around those who have undertaken that monumental task, and have myself undertaken the task of coupling two engines together, and making the coupling system live.  If you couple the two Panthers 360o apart, the life of the coupling belt will be zip all.  It'll never last a run at Bonneville.  Before I coupled my two supercharged Vincents together I built a test twin engine Mustang motorscooter.  The engines were 21 c.i. flat head engines.  I experimented with firing them 360o apart, which shook like hell, and would disintegrate the 50 coupllng chain in short order.  The only way to make the coupling chain live was to time the engines as near simultaneous as possible, and best results were achieved when the front cylinder fired 5 to 10 degrees before the rear cylinder. 

                                     Max


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on December 03, 2010, 10:59:06 AM
Great info thanks. Belts are relatively cheap so I can experiment. I'll try getting them firing close and see what happens. At least this system let's me change easily


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Stainless1 on December 03, 2010, 10:04:53 PM
Great info thanks. Belts are relatively cheap so I can experiment. I'll try getting them firing close and see what happens. At least this system let's me change easily

if your belt are cheap you are probably using the wrong belt....
Something cogged like the Gates Polychain might be in order.  They are not cheap but they will take a lot of abuse.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Interested Observer on December 05, 2010, 07:02:52 PM
Providing adequate flywheel effect at the cranks can minimize the “connection” problem, make life easier on the rest of the drivetrain, and help with traction.  Might even make 360 degree timing workable, which would smooth out power delivery even more.

Kill the problem at the source instead of dealing with it everywhere else.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on December 05, 2010, 10:58:11 PM
best results were achieved when the front cylinder fired 5 to 10 degrees before the rear cylinder.

Takes the slack out of the primary drive before #2 fires?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on December 06, 2010, 01:43:53 AM
If there's one thing panthers aren't short of it's flywheel effect ...

Providing adequate flywheel effect at the cranks can minimize the “connection” problem, make life easier on the rest of the drivetrain, and help with traction.  Might even make 360 degree timing workable, which would smooth out power delivery even more.

Kill the problem at the source instead of dealing with it everywhere else.



Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on December 08, 2010, 06:01:26 AM
went home last weekend and collected the spacers off my dad that i had been bitching about making up myself on my little lathe, always good to have a dad with access to adult size machinery and knows how to use it

outer bearing supports also turned up and dropped in

ignore the junk hardware in it mock up only, and the crappy grainy mobile phone picture, it was bloody cold in the garage so i threw it together in the kitchen instead...

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/photo-5.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on December 08, 2010, 02:24:08 PM
Junk in the kitchen?  It looks pretty nice and clean from here, save maybe for the beer case in the background.  But -- I guess that such is a standard in the work area of most racers. . .

Nice work - by your dad, you say?  Thank him for us.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on December 08, 2010, 02:47:45 PM
yea hes a good old man and we get on great which helps. hes retired too so has spare time i can fill with machining tasks etc  :-D


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Joshuacbassett on June 20, 2011, 10:16:51 PM
What happened to this project? I live in Studham, slowly building a bike project of my own.
I drive a production car at bonneville every year if you guys make it out let me know!


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on June 20, 2011, 10:26:36 PM
I PM'd Sumo a bit over a month ago.  I understand its at a point where he's working out a few details, but he assures me it's still under way.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Joshuacbassett on June 20, 2011, 10:28:45 PM
ah spot on. Thanks.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on June 21, 2011, 12:45:40 AM
yep. still underway, been a bit of a standstill with other jobs taking precedence and various things. I'm at a stage now of needing to build a couple of engines

I've decided on my spec. now. I'm going to do a head with the stuff I think will work for my solo panther and if it makes the increases I expect then do 2 for the twin

plan is keeping it relatively simple, yam tr1 valves make a 34mm carb fit. it is already over exhausted so that should make it breath better. if that works as panned I need to do a couple and then the rest of 2 motors with various bits modified. once I have motors it will either run or not. then I see if my engine linkage hangs together of fails spectacularly taking 2 new motors with it...

I hope to have it running about Xmas but that might come back to haunt me....


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on January 03, 2012, 07:32:50 AM
i know there hasnt been much progress for too long but now i have the funds in place to get the 2 motors together

motors are out of the stump puller over xmas and i have dug out all my part engines to help make up the parts deficit

i have amassed 3 sets of cases that are old enough to drop in class so theres a chance i might even manage a spare engine to take with me

they are off to polish / blast etc as soon as they open up after the new year. then its on again

might not be the xmas tree knucklehead photo everyones seen but its all mine :)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/636171ad.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Old Scrambler on January 03, 2012, 03:52:35 PM
Happy New Year and its good to hear and see that this project is progressing!  I was giving some thought to building a 500c Sunbeam but gave up on the open valves.  Built a 201.44cc Triumph Cub and set a record in 2011. I am sure 2 Panthers will go faster than 2 Cubs!  One suggestion on your chasis............loose the front brakes. Regarding the belts, I hope you have a divider of some sort on the rear pully to keep the belts from rubbing sides. You've got a great looking and uique build going............see on the salt!


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on January 03, 2012, 05:09:29 PM
cheers
I'm going to be testing on 1/4 miles. you don't get all that far to stop :-D


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on January 03, 2012, 10:40:38 PM
It is nice to see that the build is still happening.  Me thinks there are more Panther engines leaning against your chimney than we have in Oregon.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: 55chevr on January 03, 2012, 11:28:48 PM
rare as hen's teeth in NY as well ... please dont blow anymore up ... certainly a beautiful engine ... They are rare enough.
Joe


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on January 04, 2012, 12:01:02 AM
A welcome post from the east side of the pond.  Yeah, you'll need the front brake for the quarter, but you'll have plenty of space to slow down on the salt.

Keep us posted, Sumo.  Even the little things on a build like this are interesting.

Happy New Year!

Chris


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on January 18, 2012, 07:32:17 AM
not rare over here  :-D - can find them all day long for not too much money if you ask around - i have about the cost of 1 shovelhead motor in that pile of engines

not the most exciting thing in the world to see but did the dye penetrant testing on the cases yesterday

no cracks so im happy, there are a few chips on corners that im getting welded up then im good to go

i also have a rolling chassis for a rigid panther [just knocking about like haha] so im going to put together a test-bed bike [this weekend probably] so i can get the motors on the rolling road i have access to [twin wont fit, and i want the motors right before joining them up anyway]. wont be anything much more than a rolling chassis with a gearbox and a tank so we can get it on the machine and see what we are achieving

im building 2 different spec motors, testing each on the rolling road and then altering the slower of the 2 to match the faster

things are creeping forwards

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/b8ee1780.jpg)
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/a74bb8c2.jpg)
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/ca54f605.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on January 22, 2012, 12:17:13 PM
spent a day piecing this together. the test bed for the engines individually so I can get it on the rolling road

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/pegacorn/5f4a4922.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on January 24, 2012, 08:59:42 PM
Sumo, the Gulf Norton is in the National Motorcycle Museum in Birmingham, according to a magazine I have.  It is recently restored.  It originally had double Triumph engines, then they switched to two Nortons.  An odd decision, for sure.  It was built by Denis Manning and Boris Murray.  Boris was a successful drag racer with doubles.  Maybe looking at that bike might be a help.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on January 24, 2012, 10:10:34 PM
Sumo, the Gulf Norton is in the National Motorcycle Museum in Birmingham, according to a magazine I have.  It is recently restored.  It originally had double Triumph engines, then they switched to two Nortons.  An odd decision, for sure.  It was built by Denis Manning and Boris Murray.  Boris was a successful drag racer with doubles.  Maybe looking at that bike might be a help.
Don't know if it survived the fire but Don Sliger's Royal Enfield double used to be there too!
There are some pictures I took in the 1970 photo album when he broke 200 mph.
http://www.landracing.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=213&page=2


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on January 25, 2012, 02:28:36 AM
yea I was up there a while since. they have a few twin engine bikes there. pretty cool place


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Ivan S on January 25, 2012, 03:28:44 PM
Sumo, the Gulf Norton is in the National Motorcycle Museum in Birmingham, according to a magazine I have.  It is recently restored.  It originally had double Triumph engines, then they switched to two Nortons.  An odd decision, for sure.  It was built by Denis Manning and Boris Murray.  Boris was a successful drag racer with doubles.  Maybe looking at that bike might be a help.
Don't know if it survived the fire but Don Sliger's Royal Enfield double used to be there too!
There are some pictures I took in the 1970 photo album when he broke 200 mph.
http://www.landracing.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=213&page=2
Sliger's double is still there...


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on January 31, 2012, 04:06:47 AM
start on the "making Subaru go faster" stuff for the test engine

crank assembly minus piston weighs a hefty 32lb. way way too heavy to rev, panthers run at about 4500 I want to run about 5500 not high reving by any means but still as a percentage it's a pretty big difference. im dropping it down to around 20lb and see what happens

you can actually pick it up one handed now haha

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/c384866e.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/a92189ac.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Koncretekid on January 31, 2012, 11:54:46 AM
My thoughts on the lightened flywheels:  Panther, and all big British singles and 360* crankshaft twins, used heavy flywheels because you can't balance the motors.  They were usually only balanced to 50 to 65% of  upper end reciprocating weight, so they wouldn't vibrate fore and aft so badly.  By lightning up the flywheels, and increasing the rpms, you may find significant vibration.  I'm using a 250cc crankshaft (lighter weight, shorter stroke) in my B50 BSA (500cc), and I got blisters on my hands from trying to keep the handlebars from jumping off the bike.  Heavier flywheels should not hurt performance if you have a long enough approach as we do at Bonneville.  Drag racing is a different story, and lighter flywheels are usually beneficial for quick acceleration. If you have spares, you may want to try one before you lighten up both motors.
Tom


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on January 31, 2012, 12:28:31 PM
im building a complete test bed bike to mess with motors in. first motor im doing is using a set of 60's cases so if i blow it to pieces im not going to cry into my beer. and i can get the solo on a rolling road and see what we have done to performance. im getting 1 motor dialed in and then duplicating my best findings a couple of times

in stock format the panther motor cant pull full revs in top gear with a mass this big in it. i want to rev higher so i need to address that, we'll see if it works or not... its all to play for


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Peter Jack on January 31, 2012, 07:31:31 PM
I think probably heavy metal could be used to achieve the necessary balance. You may want to look into that as well Tom. It's commonly used in drag race motors.

Pete


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: saltwheels262 on January 31, 2012, 08:06:49 PM
what if you " pork chop " the flywheels ?

bf


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on January 31, 2012, 08:56:57 PM
what if you " pork chop " the flywheels ?

bf

You just beat me to it.

By the way, Sumo, I just watched the documentary video, "Hogslayer – The Unapproachable Legend", about TC Christenson's twin engined Norton.  He lives down the road a piece - great guy.  The bike is now in Birmingham at the bike museum.  If I get down to Kenosha, I'll point out your build to him - I'm sure he'd dig it. 


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on February 01, 2012, 01:46:19 AM
My experience is the same as Tom's.  The big flywheels are not a liability in an event with a lot of time and distance to get up to speed.

The old British bikes had advantages in power and handling over the opposition most of the time.  I lost more races due to stuff vibrating loose, breaking, falling off, etc. than anything else.  My preference would be the smoother running setup, either big or little flywheels.  A bike has to run at full throttle for a lot of miles to set a record.

 


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on February 01, 2012, 02:29:25 AM
if it doesn't work I'm not married to the lightened flywheels but we'll see

I spent some time on the phone on Saturday with the guy that built Pegasus twin norton in the 60s. learned a lot from him. he started on a panther as an apprentice. that is the fastest panther I know of. he shared some of what he could remember. he lightened the flywheels dramatically. I'm using his knowledge as a start point. ok so it was drag not lsr. but none the less it went faster than any one else's I know of since.

but this is the point of a test bed engine. people don't tent to tune panthers so there's very little in the way of "x works well" out there. I'm just applying old fashioned race stuff and seeing wha happens. keep trying till I get a fast solo bike then make another engine like it.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on February 01, 2012, 02:45:20 AM
what if you " pork chop " the flywheels ?

bf

You just beat me to it.

By the way, Sumo, I just watched the documentary video, "Hogslayer – The Unapproachable Legend", about TC Christenson's twin engined Norton.  He lives down the road a piece - great guy.  The bike is now in Birmingham at the bike museum.  If I get down to Kenosha, I'll point out your build to him - I'm sure he'd dig it. 

I watched that last week ha. good little film

not heard of pork chop flywheels. just googled a couple of pics. what's the advantage?

as for tc christenson. absolutely. if he would be kind enough to share a little twin knowledge I'd be happy to listen. if he'd rather email not use a forum if you'd pass on my address I'd very much appreciate it. vintagechop@gmail.com


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on February 01, 2012, 12:08:22 PM
Pork chop: lowest possible inertial mass, nothing structural except landing pads for the shafts and a web connecting the pin to the main.
Light wheels are definitely going to improve acceleration, but the advantage is lowest with tall overall gearing.
Flywheel inertia will also preserve your primary drive somewhat.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: saltwheels262 on February 01, 2012, 07:38:46 PM
Pork chop: lowest possible inertial mass, nothing structural except landing pads for the shafts and a web connecting the pin to the main.
Light wheels are definitely going to improve acceleration, but the advantage is lowest with tall overall gearing.
Flywheel inertia will also preserve your primary drive somewhat.

pretty much.
a lot better for drag racing. but, 1 way to lighten them.

bf


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Old Scrambler on February 01, 2012, 07:58:37 PM
I was visiting with TC at the motorcycle movie night last week in Milwaukee.............Just remember, he was the rider more than the builder...........Yes, porkchop the weights and work on the valve-train to reduce stress............you might consider diverters to keep the return oil from hitting the crank.........you may also be able to remove some weight from the piston.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Tofu on February 01, 2012, 09:48:25 PM
I believe that this is the Panther sprinter referred to by Sumo built by 3 engineering apprentices, Derek Chinn, Mick butler and Ian Messenger.
(http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/Tofuelder/panther0001Large.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on February 02, 2012, 02:24:28 AM
yep. that's the one. spoke to Derek. nice chap


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Jon on February 02, 2012, 03:58:26 AM
To safely increase the redline I would be focussing on reciprocating weight rather than rotating weight.
Anything that changes direction will be stressed more as the revs increase.
Piston
Rod
Valve train

IMHO rotating weight will effect the rate of acceleration (mainly in low gears)rather than redline.


Just my 2cents worth.
Jon



Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on February 02, 2012, 04:30:58 AM
yep - im onto that too

lightening timing gear, going to 1 piece pushrod not standard setup with heavy mid adjuster etc etc...

To safely increase the redline I would be focussing on reciprocating weight rather than rotating weight.
Anything that changes direction will be stressed more as the revs increase.
Piston
Rod
Valve train

IMHO rotating weight will effect the rate of acceleration (mainly in low gears)rather than redline.


Just my 2cents worth.
Jon




Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on February 02, 2012, 10:01:52 AM
What do the rocker arms look like?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on February 13, 2012, 04:17:42 AM
got the crank back together and all lined up. needs balancing now but that's the difference between the now and then :)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/e2875136.jpg)
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/24820980.jpg)

dropped into case to show clearance on old oil weir [used to be about 1/16"]. will be machinging bottom of the cases around the flywheel so oil drains through and doesnt need to be flung over the weir. the flywheels will no longer run in oil so that should help matters

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/6df344fa.jpg)
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/aebc0d2a.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on February 23, 2012, 08:22:41 PM
Sumo, today I was looking in the Fastenal catalog page 10-203 under Power Transmission.  www.fastenal.com  There are commercially available power transmission couplings with rubber spider inserts.  That might help on the double engine bike.  This is an American company but something similar might be available in England.  It is off-the-shelf and one less part you will need to design and fabricate.   


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on February 24, 2012, 02:11:25 AM
cheers mate. my coupling system is actually built. but if it looks like it might fail I'll def look into that as an option. thanks for the heads up


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on March 09, 2012, 04:52:04 AM
the cases are up at my dads getting some work by my team of retired old men. i have my dad retired engineer, melvin retired welder, and rod, semi-retired bike shop owner / tuner. between them they have pretty much all the bases covered for anything dumb i can dream up that i cant handle myself [along with a lot of why? what the hell? but its a panther, they arent meant to go fast etc type comments]

dad nearly sorted out my re-routing oil system [theres a good bit more to it that just draining different too...] bit of welding to be done on them and some more machining and we will be ready for a bottom end assembling pretty soon - hope to have it running in a solo bike in the next few weeks to see how it responds to the tuning

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/574e482a.jpg)
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/edc73567.jpg)
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/98352294.jpg)

if you dont know panthers then this looks normal - but pushrod tube normally has 2 guide holes in it - machined out to run solid rods

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/91b7552b.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Old Scrambler on March 10, 2012, 08:06:10 PM
Two Panthers is a probable cat fight!............take a look at the coupling plates being installed on the double Vincent build thread for potential applicaiton to your cats.  I'm staying out of the fray with my single Tiger Cub.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on March 13, 2012, 04:22:32 AM
i have done a lot of reading and talking to people that have built and raced twin engine bikes. all seem pretty confident that my coupling system is overkill and should hold up fine but theres only one way to find out really - have a go, so thats what im doing. its built and ready for the 2 motors [see a few pages back] now im concentrating on making 1 motor go fast then making a matching pair

things are moving at pace on the test engine - hope to have it installed into the testbed bike the first week of april fingers crossed if all keeps going to plan

the hot cam i got made an age ago arrived yesterday for the test motor, just in time for bottom end assembly. not we've got to sort out the new pushrod arrangement [more like the solid 30's panther setup than stock later one with the adjusters in the middle]

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/3c9b4729.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/697896f9.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on March 27, 2012, 04:51:39 AM
things are marching on still

modified pushrod tube so it doesnt fall into the modified cases, i welded up adjuster cups onto the cam followers to accommodate the single piece pushrods, new single piece pushrods made, access hatch into rocker cover welded up and cover machined.

steady away, still plenty to do but on course to having this motor into the black bike at the weekend with a little luck and a fair breeze.

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/4bba66ce.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/07c99794.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/5e0cf1f7.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/119de6e6.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on March 27, 2012, 07:25:58 AM
I'm puzzled by the cam followers?
Just a guess: somehow they didn't want/couldn't fit 2 conventional tappets in there, so a lever reduces the footprint?
Big question: what does the follower's contact surface look like: flat or radiused?
Not sure how fast you're going to turn these, or how much spring pressure, but those pushrods look a bit wiggly. Is there any room to increase the diameter at least mid-way?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on March 27, 2012, 07:45:41 AM
panic - its essentially their 1920s design they just carried on using. i never really considered the cam followers to be anything but normal haha guess its what you are used to

the cam follower surface is curved, although a tuning mod i havent done on this set is to put a flat surface on them

as for the pushrods - they are pretty thick - they are just long so look thin with nothing to scale them against. they are as thick as they will go to go through my hole in the casings which makes them thicker than stock, from memory a good 1/2" thick

spring pressure still needs a little working on - im going to try the stock springs and see how they are for a start and go from there


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Tman on March 27, 2012, 09:49:44 AM
Looking good, it had been a while since I looked.  :cheers:


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on March 28, 2012, 12:37:02 AM
The flat lifters and a high lift cam will accelerate and decelerate the valves really quick off of and on to the seat.  Those are big valves and the spring quality will be critical.  There have been a lot of advances in spring wire metallurgy and manufacturing since the Phelon and Moore days.  Dave Flintoft of Dave Flintoft Engineering recently wrote an article for Classic Bike Guide about valve springs.  Some of the valve spring technology he described might be a help.     


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on March 28, 2012, 01:13:42 AM
sounds like good useful read. is that our British mag as in www.classicbikeguide.com ? or is there an American magazine of the same name? don't suppose you happen to know the issue? I'll get a copy for sure


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Briz on March 28, 2012, 07:01:49 AM
If you're flattening off the followers Sumo, make sure the edge of the follower doesn't dig into the lobe... You might want to leave a bit of a radius on the leading edge.
With that welding so close to the followers surface, might the hardening not be affected? A soft follower will flatten itself off pretty quick!


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on March 28, 2012, 07:12:40 AM
it may be affected briz, was a concern but it passes the highly technical "it wont take a mark from a file" test.

each one welded in 4 goes and allowed to cool between welds to keep heat down as best as possible. will be inspected regular for wear at first - if they appear to be wearing i will kasenit harden them [thats why didnt braze them on so could reheat later on if need be to harden] thats the plan anyway...

not flatting the followers just yet, but tis a thought for next phase


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Koncretekid on March 28, 2012, 07:33:02 AM
I only see one rocker arm where I think I should see two; maybe just hidden behind the outside one.  But they look like they would benefit from going on a diet.  Heavy cast steel?  I realize you don't expect high RPM's, but that's reciprocating weight and without a lot of spring pressure, I can visualize them being lofted off the cam at higher RPM.  Are the pushrods aluminum?  Wall thickness, even solid, won't make them much stiffer.  Have you considered thin walled tubular steel instead?  I think they can make them any length you want and might be a good investment.  As usual, we all like to make as many changes we can think of on the first pass out, which sometimes causes problems we can't solve.  Walk slowly, carry a big Panther!


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on March 28, 2012, 07:58:06 AM
yea there are 2 cam followers in there, they are just sitting on the shaft so level with each other

theres not an awful lot of spare material on there to remove really that doesnt add strength to them

as for doing everything at once - not by far, theres a ton of stuff i want to do if this works. done the big things. but if i didnt do a chunk at once it would take years and years to get through all the mods. panther tuning isnt a documented practice, very few idiots start with a panther motor to go fast, i havent done anything too radical yet so with a little luck and a fair breeze i'll be fine. if not it goes bang and i see what failed and dont do that again

yes they are ali rods but im pretty confident they will be are ok they are pretty big dia and very heavy wall [but who knows] if need be i can make some steel ones if i have issues

as a point of interest / amusement i set up my digital tach on my standard solo panther last weekend - it idles at 450 rpm, tops at about 5000 ish  :-D - im looking at maybe 6000 rev limit i think on my tuned motor. i'll see when it feels to be shaking itself it bits and back off a bit


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on March 28, 2012, 10:43:04 AM
Alum pushrods only about 1/3 as stiff as steel, no weight is saved. When they're really long, a press-fit sleeve over the middle 25% helps.
The rockers can definitely stand some weight loss. Keep the depth (top to bottom) but narrowing the tip helps.
A flat tip increases the rate. A larger convex radius will as well, but hard to be accurate with such a small surface. Strictly speaking, a concave radius is even faster but risks destruction due to side thrust.
You can also change the intake to exhaust bias somewhat by changing the radius on only 1 tip (like Triumph did) rather than change the cam, best info on whether this will help is by flowing the heads. As a guess: if the exhaust percentage is above 80% of intake, flatten the intake tip. If below 70% flatten the exhaust
The easiest safety margin to prevent catching an edge is to make the contact longer, although there is obviously a weight penalty.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on March 28, 2012, 10:45:37 AM
What do the rockers in the head look like? What ratio?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on March 28, 2012, 11:00:50 AM
What do the rockers in the head look like? What ratio?
they look like this - no idea on ratio though


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on March 28, 2012, 11:31:42 AM
Ratio looks small, if it's even positive (older designs frequently used 1:1 so as not to flatten the lobe).
I see oil grooves on the shafts - is there oil pressure to the rockers?
I suggest once you have the head ready to go that you assemble the rocker gear and do the usual mid-lift test. Since wear, lobe height etc. affect rocker geo, you'll need to know how close it is.
The combination of seat recession and increased lift require corrections in opposite directions, and tend to cancel each other out, or at least make the end result better than either individually.
The shaft height is fixed by the hole position in the stands, unless you make eccentric plugs to re-clock the shaft holes, or cut them off and make new ones. The stem height of course can easily be increased by lash caps.
Do you have any stem height above the collar area which can be trimmed if needed?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on March 29, 2012, 12:35:42 AM
Sumo, one thing to do is put in your standard cam and followers.  Put a dial indicator on top of your valve spring keeper.  Measure valve travel vs degree of cam or crankshaft rotation.  Plot the data with the degrees on the x-axis and travel on the y-axis.  The valve travel curve rises and falls when the valve opens and closes.  You will be surprised sometimes.  The curve often will not be a smooth sine wave shape.

The curve shows valve position vs degrees,  The steepness of the line represents velocity.  The steeper the line, the faster the valve travels.  The rate of change in the curve steepness is valve acceleration.

Put in your modified cam with standard lifters and measure everything again.  Then try your standard cam with the modified lifters.  Then try the modified cams and lifters.  You want the setup that gets the job done with the smoothest increases and decreases in velocity and acceleration.

Force is related to mass and acceleration.  Pay the most attention to acceleration.  Anything significantly beyond the acceleration of the stock setup means racing springs are a good idea. 

In the past I have shown these curves to a spring specialist and brought my head and valve components with me.  They look at the curves, the rpm I want to use and they weigh the parts.  Then they match me up with some springs or make them.

This is a lesson I learned the hard way.  I did not pay attention to valve springs.  Valve float led to the head cracking off of the valve, dropping onto the piston, then the engine ate itself.  It was an engine I built for a customer.  That was worse than losing one of mine.   


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Tman on March 29, 2012, 02:51:27 PM
Sumo, one thing to do is put in your standard cam and followers.  Put a dial indicator on top of your valve spring keeper.  Measure valve travel vs degree of cam or crankshaft rotation.  Plot the data with the degrees on the x-axis and travel on the y-axis.  The valve travel curve rises and falls when the valve opens and closes.  You will be surprised sometimes.  The curve often will not be a smooth sine wave shape.

The curve shows valve position vs degrees,  The steepness of the line represents velocity.  The steeper the line, the faster the valve travels.  The rate of change in the curve steepness is valve acceleration.

Put in your modified cam with standard lifters and measure everything again.  Then try your standard cam with the modified lifters.  Then try the modified cams and lifters.  You want the setup that gets the job done with the smoothest increases and decreases in velocity and acceleration.

Force is related to mass and acceleration.  Pay the most attention to acceleration.  Anything significantly beyond the acceleration of the stock setup means racing springs are a good idea. 

In the past I have shown these curves to a spring specialist and brought my head and valve components with me.  They look at the curves, the rpm I want to use and they weigh the parts.  Then they match me up with some springs or make them.

This is a lesson I learned the hard way.  I did not pay attention to valve springs.  Valve float led to the head cracking off of the valve, dropping onto the piston, then the engine ate itself.  It was an engine I built for a customer.  That was worse than losing one of mine.   

 I just learned more in your post than I have all week on the entire site! Thanks! :cheers:


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on March 29, 2012, 11:42:49 PM
I think a plot of valve motion vs. crank rotation is going to have some weirdness in it due to follower arc travel, so don't expect a clean shape like the cam mfg. pretend to offer.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on April 01, 2012, 10:03:03 AM
The magazine is Classic Bike Guide published in Horncastle, England, not far from Panther Territory.  www.classicbikeguide.com  My issue with the valve spring article was tossed out.  I cannot find it anywhere.  The Flintoft articles were published in the last 6 months.  They have a phone # to call for help with finding old articles.  All of them give good info to the home builder.   


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on April 01, 2012, 01:08:37 PM
While I was rooting around in a lifetime of hoarded junk for the spring article I found one of my old engineering textbooks "Graphics in Engineering Design" Third Edition, by Alexander Levens and William Chalk ISBN 0-471-01478-8

This is where I learned about the valve displacement-velocity-acceleration curves.  There is an example problem and the book discusses oscillating cam followers like yours, roller followers, flat tappets, and point followers.  The pole and ray graphical integration and differentiation methods are what I use.

This is a very good book and the methods learned from it have helped me throughout my career.  A lot of this stuff is a lost art.  A used copy would be well worth its purchase price.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Old Scrambler on April 02, 2012, 12:17:38 PM
Just bought a copy for $12.99 delivered.........thanks Wobbly


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on April 02, 2012, 02:33:28 PM
SHE LIVES

started 4th kick from rebuild. this is after a spin round the block. but started first kick warm :)

http://youtu.be/q_3mhRSPbpU

first stage test motor done. need to test for a bit but so far so good.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Geo on April 02, 2012, 02:52:51 PM
Yahooo!  I don't think I ever had a bike that started that easily!  :cheers:

Probably what kicked me off the fence to the car side  :-D

I'm ready for the next phase.  Looks good.  Don't just stand there get riding!

Geo


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on April 02, 2012, 03:01:44 PM
cheers

get the timing right and a good strong leg works wonders on most bikes  :-D


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on April 02, 2012, 03:12:18 PM
Killer news!

Nothing like the first start-up - and even more so with British antiques - there's alway that niggling doubt . . .

I'll lift an Old Speckled Hen to you when I get home.  :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on April 02, 2012, 10:28:50 PM
That is great, Sumo.  Nice job.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Koncretekid on April 03, 2012, 09:42:15 AM
Sounds good, Sumo. It even idles.  And it doesn't seem to be jumping up and down..............yet! Let us know if it remains smooth (relatively, anyway) at higher RPM's.
Tom


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on April 03, 2012, 11:25:32 AM
Sounds good, Sumo. It even idles.  And it doesn't seem to be jumping up and down..............yet! Let us know if it remains smooth (relatively, anyway) at higher RPM's.
Tom

yea idles about 600rpm when warm (stock sits about 450 haha) it's pretty smooth. even at road speeds, not had it above about 35mph yet, but seems more spritely than a stock one so we shall see what it pulls in top after its all run in :-D so far so good


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on April 10, 2012, 03:45:03 AM
made up a breather for the race motor at the weekend. [the ugly black tube to the left of the pushrod tube] every little bit helps. i think i will make a bigger breather for it in the long run but this is a start

it has a couple hundred miles on it now and it seems a much more streetable motor now. i guess in a week or so ill see what we have extra in the way of top end... [probably on the way over to the Low Level Hell do over in a welsh direction - should be a good leg stretch for it - seems to be running and starting well so fingers crossed]

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/3dc5a0b8.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on April 10, 2012, 08:15:59 AM
Sorry if I overlooked this, but what sort of breather do these have?
Timed disc, flap, rotor?
Typically, a 1 cylinder has the worst problems unless the case volume is big.
Is there any large fitting on the case you can borrow for another purpose (timing hole, inspection etc.)?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on April 10, 2012, 08:27:00 AM
breather on these is a tiny bore down the crank with a nut on the end with a metal disk in it / split pin over it to create sort of a butterfly system. the case volume is pretty big with the inbuilt oil boot

the hole i have used on the timing side is access to the oil feed adjustment - its about an inch dia - this is what i intend using, i put an 8mm breather because thats as big as i could without too much machining effort, but will make up a full diameter one when i get a chance


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on April 10, 2012, 08:30:55 AM
How are the cranks phased:
1. simultaneous power strokes
2. 360° separation
3. 180/540° separation


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on April 10, 2012, 08:42:21 AM
on the twin engine i dont know yet - best plan seems to be simultaneous power strokes speaking to people that have built twin engine bikes - seems they stay in one piece better that way


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on April 10, 2012, 08:51:18 AM
From what I've read that's true - the coupling doesn't like load reversals.
However: it means you can't use the other case volume as a buffer.
Have you tried putting a gauge on the breather with the engine running so guess at max pressure?
You can increase the volume of both with a sealed can connected to each with a large hose/pipe. A 3" ID × 12" tube is 74" volume.
Another possible is a reed controlling the only vent, so the case pumps itself down to a minimum level after a few seconds


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on April 10, 2012, 09:00:17 AM
not yet i havent no - its on the endless list though

From what I've read that's true - the coupling doesn't like load reversals.
However: it means you can't use the other case volume as a buffer.
Have you tried putting a gauge on the breather with the engine running so guess at max pressure?
You can increase the volume of both with a sealed can connected to each with a large hose/pipe. A 3" ID × 12" tube is 74" volume.
Another possible is a reed controlling the only vent, so the case pumps itself down to a minimum level after a few seconds


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on April 10, 2012, 09:38:21 AM
I'm not sure what level of positive pressure is acceptable before you get oiling past the guides and rings.
The only way IKO to get vacuum in the case without a timed breather is a reed. Krank Vent is $$, take-off from big motorcycle needs some adapting but cheap.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Queeziryder on April 10, 2012, 12:04:55 PM
Sumo
Look up Ducati crank breathers, we use them a lot on heavy breathing Vincents, and they seem to work well.
You would need to make an adapter to screw the Duke valve into, but its internal bore would work well with your 1" dia point on the Panther cases.

Neil

PS
Find them on eBlag for less than £35 on a regular basis


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on April 10, 2012, 01:07:29 PM
Is this it?
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd58/gothamcycles/ebay4/ducaticra-1293686877-34766.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on April 10, 2012, 01:55:42 PM
I was somewhat surprised at the remarks on use (and mod) of this valve on the Ducati.
The trend appeared to be re-locating the valve to the end of a large container (air box) to add plenum volume.
I think this is a mixed message, and not sound practice.
The 2 operations work in opposite directions (albeit toward the same purpose: reduced pumping loss).

Adding a plenum simply buffers whatever pressure cycling occurs during crank rotation, but the case volume change (slightly less than the engine displacement) transfers back & forth through the connecting hose every TDC continuously. If the passage is small enough to be a restriction (like 1/2" ID hose), the gain decays to merely cosmetic. Pushing 900cc through a 1" hose is easy to calculate, it's piston speed × (piston^2 ÷ 1^2). Let's assume 60 f/s for the piston, and 104mm (about 4.09") for the bore. That makes the speed in the 1" hose 1,000 f/s.

A valve should be as close to the case volume as possible so that (beginning with start) the volume expelled does not return, and each successive cycle reduces the mass of vapor in the case until a slight vacuum is constant (there is always some expansion due to ring leakage and heat soak). This means that the valve's capacity is not relevant except for the first few seconds.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on April 10, 2012, 02:50:56 PM
From a few e-mails, it appears I left a thread hanging.
The displaced case volume is of course the engine displacement in a single, or 360° parallel twin, and half the displacement in a 180° twin, etc. (which still has some pumping, but it's between the cylinder mouths below the deck).
A V-twin always has somewhat less than 100% case volume expulsion because the 2 cylinders don't reach BDC together, so the volume displaced is the full piston area × the stroke length at 1/2 of the V angle: 22.5° BBDC for H-D, 45° for Ducati, etc. The exact figure of course depends on the rod ratio.
For a 80" OHV twin (4.25" with 7.4375" rod) the effective stroke at 157.5° ATDC is 4.133" giving about 97% of engine size as volume change.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Queeziryder on April 11, 2012, 12:34:06 PM
Hi Sumo
Yep that's the boy.

On my big bore Comet I run the valve approx 6" from my c/case vent, but on a vertical pipe so any oil mist can run back to the c/case

Neil


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on April 12, 2012, 04:39:52 PM
If the hose from the case to any device is long, treat it like a turbo oil drain: must go down-hill continuously, or it will spit a slug of oil out the pipe when your face gets close.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on May 08, 2012, 09:12:42 AM
thought id drop this on here not build related other than it will help fund it  8-)

i am lucky enough to have known tyler of lowbrow customs for a few years now and earlier this year he asked me if id be interested in being part of their race team redliners international - no brainer yes please  :-D

http://redlinersracing.com/

you will notice a dashing chap on there with an indian you might recognise from here too on there

the proceeds from shirts etc are going to help us all go faster / get to bonneville so thats pretty Dodge cool


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Tman on May 08, 2012, 09:27:56 AM
You guys make a mottley crew! I will try and track you down and introduce myself this year.  :cheers:


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 16, 2012, 03:59:38 AM
spent the weekend on this getting things in place for the motors. im just waiting on the club getting valves back in stock in the next week or so and then ill have 2 mild motors together ready to drop in here.

it was damned uncomfy - so i have moved the pegs, altered the bars & changed the seat. now my nuts arent compressed into my spine after 12 seconds - im thinking more than a minute pay be possible without passing out now...

and seeing as i had it stripped down to do some welding i figured id give it a waft of black to make it look more presentable. then a speedy re-assemble and it was back on the bench by sunday lunch time. another couple of weeks and i wil have the motors in there proper. then i just need to pull cash together for a coupleof carbs and mag rebuilds and it might make some noise.

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/fbe6e9a8.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/42dc3b06.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/236a01fe.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on July 17, 2012, 12:11:18 AM
Looks good.  With that plate system you can put all sorts of different motors in that bike.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 17, 2012, 04:48:55 AM
Looks good.  With that plate system you can put all sorts of different motors in that bike.

yea we were talking about this the other weekend - when all is done and this is running / been to bonneville etc... there are talks about putting in a couple of 80s z1000 motors in there for a laugh, measured up and theres room  :evil:


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Koncretekid on July 17, 2012, 07:33:42 PM
I'm concerned about the motors being used as a stressed lower frame.  I can't tell from your photos, but the line of the tensile force at the bottom will try to make a straight line from the front attachment (top of the cylinder head or valve cover to the bottom of the rear frame.  Try putting in just one motor and applying some down force on the center of the top tube (bouncing on it may show up any weakness).

The beer keg on the front end is an excellent idea!  You don't know how thirsty one gets while waiting in line.

Tom


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on July 18, 2012, 01:15:45 AM
the way it all bolts together that's just not going to happen, it's effectively a load of small triangles once all the parts are in, its going nowhere. it's no more of a problem than it is on a standard stock panther (infant it's less because I have beefed up the plates and added the out rigger plates


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on September 17, 2012, 08:51:28 AM
after a few glitches and remakes of parts...

motors in with new plates
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/8cada6e2.jpg)

new primary system loosly bolted together
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/26280429.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/467e8497.jpg)

drawn new to mounts up today, card ones made to check tonight then get them sent away for cutting too and its all moving forwards at a decent pace again, only lost about a month or so... not many more of them to loose if i want to get there this time round.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on September 17, 2012, 09:41:52 AM
I can barely type - my jaw keeps hitting the keyboard.

More, More!   :cheers:   :cheers:   :cheers:


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Moxnix on September 17, 2012, 12:39:25 PM
Double sloper.  Must be a first.  I like it.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on October 01, 2012, 02:47:35 PM
Double sloper.  Must be a first.  I like it.

yep as far as I'm aware not been done  :-) :-D

good day on it today so I took it outside for a photo or 3

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/48b26e2beb5131deb2c6590565f54892_zpsbeb274a0.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/f98cd72f1fed4a1fb8d48f85e15c9376_zpsd8d06cfa.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/1cb2f3dc6aa045dfc832a439e98b1982_zpsb6d69144.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: racer on October 01, 2012, 05:40:48 PM
Incredible piece.....

Start up date?

Ray C Wheeler


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Kevin G on October 01, 2012, 05:48:32 PM
That is looking awesome. Great work.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 02, 2012, 12:04:46 AM
It looks like a stable layout.  Are you going to run it with carbs first, then blown later?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on October 02, 2012, 02:09:18 AM
 
It looks like a stable layout.  Are you going to run it with carbs first, then blown later?

in stages so yea. carbs first, then when that's sorted blower nitrous etc...

startup date... as soon as I can  :-D


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 03, 2012, 11:19:09 PM
Sumo, connecting the two intake manifolds with a 1/4-inch or 5/16 inch diameter hose might smooth the engines out at low rpm and make them work better together.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on October 05, 2012, 05:47:00 AM
Sumo, connecting the two intake manifolds with a 1/4-inch or 5/16 inch diameter hose might smooth the engines out at low rpm and make them work better together.

thats not something ive read anything about...

whats the logic?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Old Scrambler on October 19, 2012, 04:48:10 PM
My twin-carb Triumph T100 has a balancer-tube between the intakes......If the tube is cracked or missing, the motor is hard to start and prone to running on one cylinder except when under load.  The distance between your motors and the separate cranks may not need that type of intake balance. I'm thinking that no matter how synchronized your motors are, one will tend to be the leader and the other the helper......just so they stay in step with each other.  Have you considered one or more slipper clutches?


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 19, 2012, 10:20:16 PM
The logic of the balancer tube is beyond me.  Some guy showed it to me in the 1970's and I have used it ever since.  Most of the time it smooths out the engine at idle and at low rpm.   I have used it on in-line four bike engines by connecting cyls 1 to 4 and 2 to 3.  Sometimes the tube is no help whatsoever.  Most of the time it works.  It is a cheap trick and I always try it to see if it will work.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on October 19, 2012, 11:23:54 PM
I agree with Old Scrambler on the two key issues.  The engines are physically too far apart, and it is likely that one will be nominally stronger than the other.
  
If the hose is a foot long, you’d wind up with better than a ½ ci column of air/fuel mixture, along with its associated momentum, affecting manifold volume by moving back and forth, possibly out of sync with what the engines are trying to draw.

If you're running vacuum advance and seperate ignitions, you would want to keep the two seperated.

In your case, I think you should maximize output of each engine individually, and give each what it wants as far as tune is concerned.

I’m sure that they will be close as far as output is concerned, but equal power is not necessarily the goal.  Maximum power from each engine is.  Seeing as there is no way to perfectly match power between the two without compromising the stronger engine, I wouldn’t try.

I’m not saying don’t try the tube – if that’s what the engines want, that’s what they should have.  I don’t see it working, but I don’t know for sure.  


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: grumm441 on October 20, 2012, 05:21:19 AM
Sumo, connecting the two intake manifolds with a 1/4-inch or 5/16 inch diameter hose might smooth the engines out at low rpm and make them work better together.

thats not something ive read anything about...

whats the logic?

It's one of those things. if you balance all tne carbs at about 2500 - 3000 rpm you dont need the tube. however if you are running multiple carbs all on different length cables every time you turn the handlebars, the carb balance changes. In the grand scheme of things, it is mainly about making a bike streetable.
it's a race bike, it might make it easier to start but at wide open throttle it probably will not make huge difference.
G


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on November 26, 2012, 04:33:50 AM
so i got my primary connection dealt with this weekend..[for a second time] its been kinda half done for ages now after the weekend of doom a month or 3 back when it all went tits up.

so i closed the motors together by few of mm. that way im not relying on my measurements and the belt not stretching - ill have an idler pulley now in the middle bottom run. plus a few fairly inconsequential tweaks that i will notice but dont really matter.

was a 1 hit job so ive been avoiding it. get it wrong, start primary plate again... but turned out not too bad after ive been making excuses not to do it. bit of turning, hammering, welding and grinding and im happy. essentially 2 of the bolts that hold the crank halfs of each engine together also clamp the primary connection to the motors through the dural plates - making everything stiffer.

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/IMG_1043.jpg)

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/IMG_1047.jpg)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Old Scrambler on November 26, 2012, 12:57:15 PM
I REALLY like this build..........and offer a suggestion for your consideration......

I see the carb is mounted with an all-metal (alloy) intake.  I was thinking this may crack from continuous vibration. I use a small section of 'rubber' hose to reduce harmonic vibration to the carb.

Also, numerous contenders show up at the salt-flats with restrictive fuel-flow to the carb-bowl, including me :| :|


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on November 26, 2012, 01:21:02 PM
thanks, and yep. that's just held on with a hose clamp for mocking up but needs rubber hose to seal them up right.

not sorted tank yet but I'm running a fuel pump so should be ok hopefully with flow to carbs... fingers crossed and all that  :-D


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: wobblywalrus on November 26, 2012, 09:27:19 PM
Enclosing the belt is a nice touch.  Lots of people here run open primaries on their street bikes and it looks to be trouble waiting to happen.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on November 27, 2012, 02:11:18 AM
to be fair I've run a lot of miles on chops with open belts

this was more an exercise in getting an outrigger bearing in place  :-D

Enclosing the belt is a nice touch.  Lots of people here run open primaries on their street bikes and it looks to be trouble waiting to happen.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Kansas Bad Man on December 01, 2012, 02:04:46 PM


Hi Sumo.  Max here.

Like your build.  Pretty neat.  I've built three twin engine outfits and found that the hardest thing is to couple the engines and make the coupling live.  In theory, firing the two engines at exactly the same time is ideal; however, it is necessary to lead the front engine in engine to engine timing by 8o to 13o.  It won't be necessary to employ a manifold equalizer tube. 

        www.vincentstreamliner.com

Good luck.  BTW I used to own a sloper. 

                          Max


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Kansas Bad Man on December 01, 2012, 02:09:13 PM

Check out 'Mockups and Test Beds' on my website.

           www.vincentstreamliner.com


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on December 01, 2012, 03:30:51 PM
thank you. much appreciated. always good to hear from people that have done the twin engine thing rather than regurgitated Internet wisdom...

so you downgraded from the panther at some stage then to a Vincent  :-D


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: JimL on December 01, 2012, 04:48:07 PM
Good idea to close and cover.  The inspectors will look at it as "where could a hand or foot get into, during a crash".  I got sent back from tech in 2009, because I hadnt covered the side of my countershaft area on my chain drive conversion.

Here is a pic of the area that was unacceptable.  I had to go to the grocery and buy a heavy cooking pan to pound into shape for a cover.  That was accepted with some additional suggestions.

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4683.75.html

They also told me to cover the side of the bottom chain run area, near my footpeg, for the next year.  I never ran this chassis again after the 2 passes in 2009.  My next project followed their recommendations.

Hope this helps you be better prepared than I was.
JimL


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Kansas Bad Man on December 04, 2012, 11:37:36 AM

Yeah, Sumo, I had to down grade due to the fact that it was difficult to find a Panther in running condition.


               #:^)#


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on December 05, 2012, 09:47:15 AM

Yeah, Sumo, I had to down grade due to the fact that it was difficult to find a Panther in running condition.


               #:^)#

ill do you a favour - ill swap you a running panther complete bike for a vincent motor, i have a couple spare  :-D


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Old Scrambler on December 05, 2012, 06:10:50 PM
That would make the DEAL OF THE CENTURY :roll: :roll:


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: panic on December 06, 2012, 01:46:28 PM
What affects the degree of offset between the front and rear engines?

IIRC someone running 2 big singles 50 years ago had a clutch between them (the reason escapes me), and he reported that the engines would re-phase themselves by slipping the clutch until they fired simultaneously.


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: grumm441 on December 07, 2012, 05:02:13 PM
I wonder if a fluid coupling like a torque convertor would  work
I'm guessing it would be much harder with singles and twins than with the current inline fours
G


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: SUMO on April 02, 2013, 05:50:27 AM

 things are moving onwards, albeit slowly

i have lost my job recently so its not progressing at speed but its getting there

converted a pair of mags to electronic ignition [thorspark units]

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/530015_431212803636611_2025836049_n_zps93293f7d.jpg)
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/485301_431236626967562_694729159_n_zps3b4d3963.jpg)

started to make some semblance of comfort

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/banjodave/stump-puller/150416_430889570335601_1550286160_n_zps975aa6fb.jpg)

and the big thing: got the drivetrain buttoned up, just need to make a correct size idler pulley and im golden follows the most boring youtube vid in the world but it means a lot to me on this build  :-D...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7DP0BbLFXs


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Old Scrambler on April 02, 2013, 08:15:14 PM
Sometimes no job means time in the garage :-D

My builder, Dave M., hooks a variable-speed electric motor to my Triumph Cub motor with a v-belt to a temporary pulley on the crank............its very cool to watch everything in slow-mo 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: rgdavid on January 31, 2014, 07:37:49 AM
i don't beleive it, a panther speed bike,
speed and the make Panther are not usually linked together :-D
my dad's got a panther, i grew up being taken about in the sidecar in the'70s,i can't remember dad not having the panther,
he's still got it, we love the bike allthough it hasnt been used for many a year and oneday we hope to restore it,
i'm sending the link to dad, this will make him happy,

I used to live not far from you at Berkhamsted herts,(i'm now in france),use to love the leighton buzzard road (starting from hemel) on my old rg500,
great to see someone do a project around this bike,
best of luck, great project, David  :-)


Title: Re: Twin Engine Panther from England
Post by: Scottie J on January 31, 2014, 12:28:28 PM
The Thorspark ignitions are great!  I have one on my '58 RE/Indian Trailblazer twin.  The only issue I had with mine was after about a month, the mounting screws that hold the trigger to the mounting plate came undone and caused a bad misfire.  Threw a little blue Loctite on both screws and no problems since.  Starts on the first kick almost every time.    :-)

Scottie