Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Jonny Hotnuts on June 03, 2010, 08:02:04 PM
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I am behind due to house projects that went nuffing futs so I am really going to roll on getting the car ready.
To start last year I spun the car on my backup run at 200ish mph.
There are a few factors that I can say attributed to the spin but they all lead to the outcome of the tea cup ride at Disneyland.
Lucky for me the only damage from the spin was a crack in the body seam where the nose meets the body and a starter that spun backwards at 60,000rpm and detonated.
We have already replaced the starter ($60 on ebay....lucky find).
We have also decided that we want to add more weight forward and were told NOT to come back to the salt with the 14" tires with the blower motor.
Thankfully when I originally built the car I made sure that if it was ever needed to install larger tires they could go without too much work or altering the lines. Sure this is going to be a pain but I feel it will be better in the long run to install the same M&H 22" tires we currently run on the rears on the front.
Here are a few pics of the progress as of June 3:
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs293.snc3/28316_1443785850692_1114496579_31342622_3634950_n.jpg[img]
Before cutting anything.
[img width=266 height=400]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs323.ash1/28316_1443784530659_1114496579_31342620_2100659_n.jpg)
After cutting a good bit of sheet the tire almost fits. Clearly I need some more clearance but doesnt look like its going to radically change the bodys lines.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs323.ash1/28316_1443785050672_1114496579_31342621_6640699_n.jpg)
Here is a shot over looking level down the hood. The tire has about 1/2" below the wheel pants. This is what the previous tires had. While provisions will have to be made to cover the tops of the tires it wont require a front end rebuild (this year).
Also....
Using a narrowed early chevy drop tube axle-spindles-hubs up front. New wheels are on the way but cant proceed pressing the 5/8" studs in the hubs until I know how thick the mounting face is on the new wheels (and dont know how much to narrow until I get things assembled to measure track width.
~JH
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-PROBLEMS WITH POSTING PICTURES-
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs293.snc3/28316_1443785850692_1114496579_31342622_3634950_n.jpg)
Before cutting anything...
Here is the first pic I tried to post that wouldnt yesterday but does today....
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What is your front to rear ratio now, and your going to change it to what? :-D
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What is your front to rear ratio now, and your going to change it to what?
I did a balance on with NA motor and it was something close to about 40/60 (60 being rear). Seems every time I add something heavy to the front I end up adding something to the rear. Its tough to get the weight forward when you have a mid-rear engine.
I would like to change it to 60/40.
~JH
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Unh, maybe you could get some tungsten-soled boots?
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(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs338.ash1/29066_1450896268448_1114496579_31362485_3290358_n.jpg)
Had to do some frame mods. I didnt want to have to do this but it became evident that it was the best AND shortest path.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs329.snc3/29066_1450896348450_1114496579_31362486_6874961_n.jpg)
The removed section.....thank you mr torch.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs329.snc3/29066_1450896388451_1114496579_31362487_5572640_n.jpg)
I dont know WTF these "wing" things are on my axle tube so I cut 'em off.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs329.snc3/29066_1450896468453_1114496579_31362488_8019975_n.jpg)
After grinding the fluff.
(http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs309.snc3/29066_1450896548455_1114496579_31362489_4222581_n.jpg)
Solid bar splint. The tolerances were so tight I had to use a flap wheel to take off the dull to get it to fit.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs309.snc3/29066_1450899228522_1114496579_31362492_6873433_n.jpg)
both sides cut to length and ready for assembly.
(http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs329.snc3/29066_1450899308524_1114496579_31362493_2357555_n.jpg)
Loose assembly ready for tolerance measurements.
~JH
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those wing things are for the front spring and radius rods ---i take it you will ridged mount ---the bearings are in the right place ---looks good willie
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40-60 is better than most have. If you reverse the numbers I bet you will have more wheel spin. :cheers:
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(http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs557.snc3/30462_1460901998585_1114496579_31392451_5925519_n.jpg)
Using a laser to set up toe. The laser seems to be a perfect way to set up your alignment. I dont know what people did before these things!
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs537.snc3/30462_1460902078587_1114496579_31392453_1717974_n.jpg)
Got all the new studs in the hubs.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs517.ash1/30462_1460901918583_1114496579_31392449_962126_n.jpg)
Tie rod and rack. I dont know if this is the way its done but I pointed the steering arms forward. This is because the caster angle would mean they would go below the frame and make contact on the floor. Seems to work fine and cant think of any reason why this would be bad.
(http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs557.snc3/30462_1460901798580_1114496579_31392447_4009170_n.jpg)
rack and pinion of lamb
~JH
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Jonny, try turning the steering wheel. If the picture is taken from the front of the car, as it appears, you're going to find that when you turn the wheel to the right, the wheels will turn to the left and likewise in the opposite direction. The solution is to turn the rack over.
Pete
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Jonny:
PM sent.
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JH,
Pointing the steering arms to the front instead of the rear with no other changes will affect the Ackerman. There seems to be various opinions as to just how much various Ackerman settings affect straight line running.
Ed
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jonny i sent you a chassis book---read the section on ackerman principle--------willie buchta
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Quick fix for your Ackerman....pull a string from the center of the rear axle, across the kingpin line (with steering straight ahead). The tie rod ends need to land on the string line. I was able to heat and bend my flat plate arms (similar to yours) to fix the steering on my roadster. You may need a longer tie rod (I had to use a Sprint car part to get the odd size I needed). Don't go too far....the autocross guys use excess Ackerman to get quicker turn-in.....not what your looking for! If you are just a little under, it'll be ok.
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Peter Jack:
Thanks and duly noted....
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JH,
Pointing the steering arms to the front instead of the rear with no other changes will affect the Ackerman. There seems to be various opinions as to just how much various Ackerman settings affect straight line running.
Ed
It was my mindset that because I have a 27'' frontal track width, 15-20 degrees steering and a 10' wheel base the Ackerman principles would not have any affect on handling.
Am I wrong????
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The theory behind Ackerman is that the wheels won't scrub or fight each other in a turn. When set up correctly the inside wheel turns slightly more than the outside wheel. It's often referred to as "toe out in turns". In the case of a land speed car the wheels are being turned very little and it's probably the least of the critical items on the front end. I'd try to get it the best that I could, but sometimes it's difficult in a front steer car where the steering arms may interfere with the brakes, wheels, hubs, etc. A lot of oval track and other race cars run without ackerman or even a little negative ackerman. Get as close as you can and then worry more about all the other parts of alignment.
Pete
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i will agree with peter--ackerman although on the list arnt at the top--at the top of my list would be scrub radius then caster then toe then camber then ackerman willie buchta
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Thanks Willie. 8-)
Jonny, I send you one more PM with the info I forgot to put in the first one. Dodge old age and failing memory! :? :? :?
Pete
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Jonny,
In reference to "Am I wrong?" At this point I can't honestly offer an opinion one way or the other, little knowledge can be dangerous and all.... I'm still gathering all the info I can on front end geometry etc as it applies to LSR as I help out with a lakester build, somewhat wider tread and substancially longer WB. As currently set up the best we have been able to do is get the intersecting lines on the centerline back near, in front of, the rear end. When we get it runing will be glad to share the whole front end set up and how well it works.
Peter, Willie,
Thanks for the input, makes me feel better about the directions I have been leaning towards.
Ed
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ok guys i will confess ive never built a land speed car--although the 3 bikes ive built have broken 11 records--i have built many drag race cars and a ton of street rods--even though the suspension ( if you have any ) will travel a lot farther on the drag strip than the lake bed i think the drag strip is more forgiving than the lake bed do to traction not just forward traction but sideways traction as will--the front end alignment and all aspects of it are critical-- if these words dont sound familiar ---scrub radius-caster-camber-kingpin inclination-toe in-ackerman principal-steering ratio-tire height and pressure then you should have a professional give it a look just some thoughts willie buchta
a short course http://www.familycar.com/alignment.htm
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As I recall,,,,there has been plenty of discussion concerning "SCRUB RADIUS", But don't recall the out come??? I'm guessing that we want it? But how much? And positive or negative? And why?
Thanks, RICK
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The outcome was that Sparky went from over driving and no records to three hats in five runs.
DW
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Dan --
Wait 'til Wayne Jesel and Jimmy Shine get it figured out this year -- your comments adding to the credibility. Might be able to drive that roadster more than 50% of the time.
Stan
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New parts in today!!!!
New pump for the intercooler (I have 3 of the same pump on the car, love this pump and company).
A Wilwood master for a handbrake (no more foot)
Tial 38mm MVS wastegate
SAE billet clutch cover (due to the massive MTC clutch being built)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs068.ash2/36760_1464935139411_1114496579_31403115_7239534_n.jpg)
I appreciate all concerns about Ackerman.... I have done a good amount of research and have had consulting about it and have decided it wont have an affect on my vehicle due to the very narrow track width and very limited steering egress. I will however keep an eye out if their is a prob.
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Made a discovery today.....
welding SS to MS is not a big deal.
Got some 309 sticks and didnt work for poop.
Used a 75-25 mix on the MIG with some SS wire and it came out really nice.
Wastegate flange is installed.
~JH
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(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs158.snc4/37247_1471308058730_1114496579_31421917_1090007_n.jpg)
Wheels came in today!!!!!
On that note....
I never wanted to be the guy that bitches about stuff but my experience (twice in 3 years) with Diamond Racing Wheels has left a really bad taste in my mouth.
If you say you will call someone back....especially because you are already 3 weeks behind when you said you would have them done, call. I can understand once or twice but after about 4 messages in a period of 3 weeks till the point where my pop has to tell the lady "he77 no I will not leave a message I need to talk to someone"....
If you say they will be "shipped tomorrow" how about f-ing shipping them and not 2-3 weeks after the day you say you will ship them, or at least give a guy the respect to call if there is some delay.
I feel we are very reasonable people and can let a bunch of poop slide but this really pizzed me off.
The worst part of it all is that I reminded my pop of the SAME crap from our first set of wheels and almost identical circumstances and he assured me they just had a bad few weeks on our first experience with them and it will be different this time. Well pops....it wasnt and after talking to another land racer in Portland today I find they did the same BS to them as well.
(*Sorry for the rant, had to get that off my chest).
At least now I wont loose more sleep on the wheels!
~JH
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Tell us how you really feel, JH!! :evil: :evil:
Fred
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Nice looking wheels,,, I only see Dzus tabs on one wheel (rear I think) I assume the other 3 are laying face down ?
Everyone Knows I like Black !!!! hmmm but I like Black Cars and Red Wheels,,, maybe when I build the next project,,, A rear engine modified roadster I will make it red with black wheels (just to change things up a bit ?? )
Charles
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I'd bet the other two wheels are for the fully-enclosed front.
Stan
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I'd bet the other two wheels are for the fully-enclosed front.
Stan
Stan I thought that as well but... unless it is an optical illusion, it looks like the Dzus tabs are on the smaller diameter Front wheels ? Looks like the two wheels on the right side are larger diameter rear wheels.. and have multi lug pattern as well ??
Just my observations,,, but it may just be the picture...
Charles
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Photo detective game? I say all the wheels are the same size by looking at the squares on the rug :-D
Nice wheels Jnuts, sorry you had to wait so long.
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(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs068.snc4/34738_1491267277698_1114496579_31471854_2777960_n.jpg)
After dropping the motor in the bay I decided to install the oil cooler. Some say you dont need the OC but figure that now the car is running the long it cant hurt (plus holds a bit more oil).
Turns out this was a huuuuuggggeee pain the the arse.
The billet oil pan I had on the motor was a drag race only pan with no oil cooler provision. I had to remove the billet pan off our big bore motor that had the provision (*and used a line bypass system). This was no real problem except the new pan needed to be drilled and tapped for the turbo oil line drain.
Then the oil cooler lines didnt fit very well and had to re-bend some tubes. Now that its in the car the cooler sits a good inch from the header and has fairly good airflow from the cheesy stock Fiat side air scoops.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs068.snc4/34738_1491267317699_1114496579_31471855_2833930_n.jpg)
I was advised that I should make sure the vertical surfaces on the nose section were equal to centerline.
Lets just say that I vested great deal of time and effort to insure they were the same on each side. I was going to have to do something to facilitate steering clearance with the larger tires anyway so re-skinning the sides ended up serving 2 purposes. In truth I am much happier with the front end profile anyway and should of done this sooner.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs048.snc4/34738_1491267357700_1114496579_31471856_2418732_n.jpg)
Very early stages of the wheel bumps. No compound curves for me this year (*running slim on time). These look fairly rough now but they are much further along from when the pic was taken and are starting to really shape up.
~JH
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JHT,
My guess is that when your engine is at WFO and the headers are at 1500 deg F + your oil cooler will be an oil heater! At that temp the major method of heat transfer is radiant and the fact that you have a little air blowing thru the cooler will have very little affect.
Rex
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Rex, I dont think I can get a pic because its too far under the body but the oil cooler is separated by a hollow 1" body structure member. It hangs over the cross member almost as if it were made for it.
I too was concerned that it would be too close and heat rather then cool.
I will try and get a pic of the setup in the car.
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JH I agree with Rex. Virtually non of the highly modofied busa's run oil coolers, mine is history. Use block off plates, not the bypass set up. They have a history of hoses comeing off.
See ya Soon
Fred