Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA Rules Questions => Topic started by: shiphteey on May 24, 2010, 06:18:35 PM
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I wasn't allowed to go down the track because my numbers weren't 3 inches tall. The funny thing is the same guy who didn't let me run is the same guy seen below looking directly at a bike with numbers under the 3 inch rule. You can clearly see the guy looking right at the bike.
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m135/shiphteey/BillWarnerNumbers.jpg)
So how exactly does it work? Who is allowed to run down the track with numbers under the 3" minimum and who isn't? :?
A.
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I also have a comment about the number and class info display rules. In roadracing, the car/bike number needs to be large so that safety workers could call in issues to the officials if there was an issue requiring a black flag. In the pro series, having the number large is also important for fans. In LSR, we only have one vehicle on the track so the visibility of the number is most important for the starter who radios it in. The class information is very important to tech and to a lesser extent the start line folks. It is nice that fans can see numbers but there isn't much in the way of reference material for them to connect it to a team.
I made an effort to make sure all my info met the rules but I see where this is especially difficult for folks switching classes on bikes. We have all seen the blue tape with the info written in a black sharpie. Not quite up to spec but I really hate to see someone sent packing for it. If we do enforce it, we need to be consistent. That means folks will need to buy sheets of the potential required info combinations if they plan to switch classes and/or add removable number plates. Don't want to ruffle feathers on this but I think the minimum size for the vehicle numbers should be lowered and that class info be sized for tape. I would to have all info in high contrast, i.e... black info on white or yellow tape. It is very hard to read black sharpie on dark blue.
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The starter, Mark doesnt tech motorcycles so I dont know how he could have kept you from going down the track ... He needs to read the numbers and relay them to Joe Timney in the tower for timing recording .... The goal at ECTA is to get everyone to safely compete .... no one would help you get the correct display?
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I'm sorry this happened Ali. All I can imagine is you may have had tiny or hard to see numbers. those are 2" numbers on my bike and if I realized it was a problem would have changed it instantly as I carry tape/marker in the tool bag. If you every need something at the line, please ask (many do) my tool bag has just about everything we all need.
Bill
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It had nothing to do with the size of the numbers
100% About how YOU dealt with the issue.
( I will not discuss it further on a forum... you can call Joe Timney for further offical discussion on the issue )
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I'm sorry this happened Ali. All I can imagine is you may have had tiny or hard to see numbers. those are 2" numbers on my bike and if I realized it was a problem would have changed it instantly as I carry tape/marker in the tool bag. If you every need something at the line, please ask (many do) my tool bag has just about everything we all need.
Bill
Bill, thanks for the offer, I appreciate that. FWIW there was a guy pitted directly across from me with numbers this small:
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m135/shiphteey/MaxtonNumbers.jpg)
and had no problems either. :?
A
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It had nothing to do with the size of the numbers
100% About how YOU dealt with the issue.
( I will not discuss it further on a forum... you can call Joe Timney for further offical discussion on the issue )
Keith, in response to you post I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. It has absolutely everything to do with not only the number sizing, but the more macro issue of fair and just rule enforcement across the board. If only one person is pulled to the side and not allowed to run down the track because of said numbers being small, but you have numbers such as these allowed to run without issue:
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m135/shiphteey/MaxtonNumbers.jpg)
how do you think that looks? How should the person singled out FEEL about that? How should others interpret said actions and inconsistencies? To say the issue had nothing to do the number sizing and was solely based on my reaction to said unjust actions on the part of the starter in my opinion implies that you don't accept certain fundamentals of life and how things really work. To me its about cause and effect. Would I apologize to said starter for getting upset after the fact? ABSOLUTELY, as I stated to you earlier if and only if said starter apologized to me first for admittedly singling me out. To sit here and say the issue is only about how I handled the situation is to turn a blind eye to inconsistent and unfair actions. Make no mistake sir, if the starter was able to read the numbers in the photo above he most certainly was able to read mine. In my opinion him pulling me out of line makes about as much sense as a janitor giving out detention slips. It completely undermines the tech inspection process and registration process and I think this opens up a dangerous precedent where one person can singlehandedly decide, on a whim, how things should and shouldn't be.
In closing I will probably be in contact with Joe in the near future regarding this as thats about all I can do.
All the best,
A
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The starter is the final step in a complete tech process. I would take it that one is to presume that a "janitor" is a person of inferior significance; when in fact, there is a public safety aspect to their job also. Ironic....
The match directer is precisely that. I was not there; but I do know that in every type of competition I've entered, respect for officials is of up most importance and more than adequate grounds for ejection regardless of cause. You are a really nice guy and hope this will be resolved, for we are a "family" and issues do and will arise.
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Relaxedphit, thanks for your input. I hear what you are saying. Just a little off in the presumption department as the janitor reference was made in essence to state that it isn't the person's job. Every position at a track is of equal importance in my opinion from tech inspector to starter, you need it all in order to flow smoothly. There was absolutey NO safety issue with my bike while on the starting line. It isn't like the starter couldn't actually read my numbers, he absolutely could. And if one were to assert that he actually couldn't read my numbers then I would argue that vision as compromised as such would compromise the ability for the starter to act as an effective "final step in the complete tech process", as you mentioned.
I (pre)paid my money just like many other racers. I stood in line patiently to get teched in like many other racers. The race director Keith Turk himself signed off on my tech inspection. I stood in a fairly long hot line in leathers like many other motorcycle racers and patiently waited my turn. I had numbers on my bike that were under 3" like many other motorcycle racers that day, but unlike any other motorcycle racer only I was pulled off the starting line for it. I'm fine with a 3 inch rule so long as its enforced across the board. But to see other motorcycle racers run with illegal numbers RIGHT AFTER I WAS PULLED for it...well....again.....how should one feel about that?
A.
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I can understand your being upset at being singled out. What I dont understand is why you would come to the races with under sized numbers. My numbers are 4" and my class letters and numbers are 2". Everything is bigger than the minimun requirement!
Fred
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I have been going to Maxton for 5 years with no issues. Never knew it was a problem, I just copied what others said was ok and never had a problem.
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ECTA 2010 rulebook, page 71, section 7.B.1 -- states letter and number size requirements. . .pretty clearly. If you're a paid member -- you've got a rulebook.
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ECTA 2010 rulebook, page 71, section 7.B.1 -- states letter and number size requirements. . .pretty clearly. If you're a paid member -- you've got a rulebook.
slim, he knows that the size is part of the issue; what you and others aren't getting is that other racers (according to him) were able to run with similar size letters and numbers. If that was the case the other riders should have not been able to run either. :mrgreen:
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FAVORITISM.....I thought it was a West Coast problem
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I know about the issue -- was just quoting where the rule is so that he can't say he didn't know about it. Whether others get away with something on which he was called is beside the point. Was it some type of favoritism -- or just the starter having a bad moment and Ali (a/k/a Shiphteey) got caught in a crosswind?
I didn't inspect his bike -- but now that I'm aware of the apparent inequality I guess it's time for the inspectors to more stringently enforce the letter/number size rule -- or come to an agreement on how much laxity will be allowed.
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FAVORITISM.....I thought it was a West Coast problem
I have to say that from my viewpoint way up here in Canada, This thread sheds some BAD light on what is supposed to be fair and equal.
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Slim,
The "lax adherence" to the number size rule has been agreed upon. We've allowed numbers written on tape for many years. The starter that pulled him from the line questioned the numbers while the bike was in tech and was specifically told by the tech inspector that they were fine and passed tech. In fact, 3 techs signed off on the numbers. I understand we're all volunteers here but what I don't understand is how a starter can override a non-safety related tech/impound issue when it was specifically asked and answered while the bike was being teched. I can understand if there was a safety issue, but this was an impound issue at best and the starter that made the judgement is not a trained motorcycle tech or impound tech.
I know we don't want to tick off our volunteers here but when a mistake, poor judgement or overstepping of bounds is made, why are we not correcting the issue with the volunteer? I get a repremand at just about every meet for inadvertently doing something wrong. It's OK to correct me as a volunteer when just about every time nobody is negatively effected let alone kept from running? Often times I'm corrected mostly for the appearance, as in, you're really OK but we don't want people to just do such & such so please don't do it. But when someone is singled out and not allowed to run we blame the racer? I don't understand how a volunteer that is not a trained motorcycle tech can overrule the decision of a trained motorcycle tech without discussing it with the head motorcycle tech or any other official beforehand. This was not just a on the line heat of the moment decision. It was asked & answered in tech and the volunteer took it upon themselves to override the ruling. I just don't get it.
So, to summarize, the undersize numbers written on tape has been officially allowed for many years and nobody should be called out on it without everyone with undersized numbers being called out. There were other underlying issues that brought on this decision some time ago. If any of the volunteers has issue with this I'm sure everyone is open to discussion to see if a change or futher adherence to the written rule should be made.
Just my volunteer thoughts.
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"officer!!! I've been speeding down this road all my life and now you're giving me a ticket" Use that argument a he's going to tear your car apart 'til he finds that twenty year old "dooby" under the seat and then tear you a new one. Go to a sign guy, have him cut LEGAL size numbers (you can get temporary material that is good for a week) and put them on your CAR or BIKE. Case closed, don't point fingers, LET'S MOVE ON!!!!! Concentrate on making your cars/bikes fast, safe and legal.
John
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I would like more formal training on most of the volunteer positions as well as "limits" of authority for all positions. However, the start line is no place for committee decisions. I agree that a question asked and answered has been adequately covered and that this is obviously more complicated than appears, but I hold by my statements about showing respect for the officials (not volunteers it seems) is always grounds for removal from that competition. Again, I wasn't there: I'm just saying....Sharing opinions is nearly always good for mutual understanding but this particular issue seems to gone out of our control.
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I firmly believe in equal respect for volunteers, officials, and competitors.
Regarding this particular situation, I would like to see all parties involved resolve this offline.
Shane
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its been said here that the number issue isnt a safety issue--let me ask you this ---if three tech people missed this on different bikes many times then what else have they missed ? willie buchta
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its been said here that the number issue isnt a safety issue--let me ask you this ---if three tech people missed this on different bikes many times then what else have they missed ? willie buchta
Willie, ??? where did you read they missed it? It was excepted in tech, but something arose later. Our safety teching is very good, don't question it.
Bill
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If I am reading between the lines correctly it sounds like this was a personality conflict between the starter and the racer. Something that should have been resolved by the race director before it ever came to this forum. maybe it was? I'm not taking side just making an observation:
Just seems to be a lot of dissension between the racers and the organizers lately. If these kind of things continue I see a slow death of LSR racing as we know it.
It is already tough for a lot of folks to pay for this sport. Combine that with people thinking the different organizations do not care about them and they will choose to spend their money elsewhere. Bubs was very close to dying after the 2007 fiasco, Luckily they listened and got peoples input on how to fix things. If they had not I know I for one would not be a sponsor.
Now there will be folks reading this who say "that's fine, we don't want those folks at our race anyways" That's all fine and dandy until you no longer have enough people showing up to pay for the track. then what? This is a customer service issue even if it is ran by volunteeers. people are paying a lot of money to attend these races. I know just to field our very cheap Buell Blast last year for Bubs cost us over $3,500 for the one race. To folks struggling that is not small change. Now combine that with the feeling that the organizers do not give a sheet about you and folks will not come back next year. This is already happening in the AHDRA. I give that organization 1 more year before they are out of business.
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there is a rule in the rule book --tech either missed it or let it by --either way is not a good thing --i have been dinged a couple of times in tech and was glad they caught something i missed i knew they were looking out for me ---the situation should have been resolved in tech -- i can see things getting by tech they are very busy folks---but it seems that 3 techs signed off on this one willie buchta
i make comments based on information written here i wasnt there
i miss read your post i thought it said inspected and it said excepted ---to me inspected and missed is one thing but excepted against the rule is another matter--it could have been fixed in tech with a felt marker
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Willie,
I agree with you. There is a rule but if you enforce it on one person you need to enforce it on everybody. To even give a hint of favortism will destroy an event!
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Let me try to state this more clearly for everyone’s benefit on the rule.
Yes the rule in print states that the numbers must be what, 3 inches? (don't have the rulebook in front of me) This is a product of our rules being based on SCTA rules. However, our track is not as distant as the SCTA tracks, we only have one track & our tower can see the vehicle start to finish so the ability to read the number from the tower doesn’t pose a safety concern or issue for us. Due to this and some other “old news” I won’t get into now, it has been officially overruled and for MANY years vehicle numbers written on tape unequivocally PASS TECH INSPECTION and are 100% legal. This is a decision that was made by the officials and when I say officials I mean the ECTA officers as written in the rule book IE: Race Director, President, head of tech... This is not an uncommon practice within the ECTA in regards to issues & rules that are not safety related. This is largely due to the more relaxed nature of the ECTA and many people like it that way.
The starter questioned the numbers while wandering past tech & was specifically told they were legal. This was NOT over looked. It was reviewed and approved and the starter was aware of this.
If the officials decide to adhere to and enforce the rule as written I don’t think anybody would have a problem with that but it needs to be communicated at the beginning of the meet before any vehicles are teched so it can be enforced across the board.
Alternatively, as always, anybody can submit a request for a rule change and could easily request that it be written in the rule book that a vehicle number written on a piece of tape of a given size is acceptable.
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So I am thinking my observation of a perosnailty conflict is correct then and it really had nothing to do with the rules? if so this is a bad precident to have happened.
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nhrs right you are
deb the number is not for the tower to read but for the starter---i know the number cant be read from the tower at a scta event ---in the scta and ecta rule book the rule is very clear (yes i have both ) entry numbers must be 3 in high and 1in wide on both sides of the bike ------page 71 7.b.1 ecta---a rule that isnt enforced on everyone but just a few is worse than no rule at all ---we are all in the same boat and should be rowing in the same direction ---hope to see you all at bonneville willie buchta
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I just bought 3 inch Magnetic numbers and letters. There was a $50 minimum so I got my numbers and all the letters for all classes I might be able to run into the future. Now if they can stay on at speed I will not have to use shoe polish.
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sheri and i use cheap vinyl numbers--if you want to change classes you can peel one off or add another --some of our numbers we have used 9 90 290 349 1349 8181 1818 easy numbers to change willie buchta
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Ted, We used to have problems on road courses with magnetic numbers flying off on the faster cars. Wasn't an issue for my slow Miata but could be for you. You may need to add tape if they don't hold on the first pass. I am happy to see that tape is allowed for the bikes as I might need some for class changes in Loring. On the other hand, I am not so happy to see that this came up at the starting line even after the starter witnessed the approval at tech.
It doesn't take much to get tempers flaring when it is hot and humid. I think everyone needs to account for the conditions and try to be patient. I almost always work on the track prep crew and worry that I will lose my temper over a similar issue after cooking out on the track. It is hard to be sympathetic to the volunteer tech when you just cooked for hours out volunteering on track prep. Luckily, we took breaks and got some relief this event so I wasn't tested this meet. Last June, I was almost finished with this sport due to a issue over proof of production at tech following 5 hours of blowing weeds in 90 degrees. Luckily a second tech stepped in and cleared it up.
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Ted, We used to have problems on road courses with magnetic numbers flying off on the faster cars. Wasn't an issue for my slow Miata but could be for you. You may need to add tape if they don't hold on the first pass. I am happy to see that tape is allowed for the bikes as I might need some for class changes in Loring. On the other hand, I am not so happy to see that this came up at the starting line even after the starter witnessed the approval at tech.
It doesn't take much to get tempers flaring when it is hot and humid. I think everyone needs to account for the conditions and try to be patient. I almost always work on the track prep crew and worry that I will lose my temper over a similar issue after cooking out on the track. It is hard to be sympathetic to the volunteer tech when you just cooked for hours out volunteering on track prep. Luckily, we took breaks and got some relief this event so I wasn't tested this meet. Last June, I was almost finished with this sport due to a issue over proof of production at tech following 5 hours of blowing weeds in 90 degrees. Luckily a second tech stepped in and cleared it up.
Milt may I sum it up ? "cooler heads prevail" I was not there but do understand how the heat and long lines can take there toll on the course workers, the crews and drivers/riders,,, maybe worse for the bike pilots suited up in leathers and no shade.
I enjoy this forum and enjoy debate, even "heated debate" is OK within reason,,, but there has to be a bit more to this than what we can all read here.
I came back to racing from a 16 year layoff.. the main reason was the LSR sport/family in general and more specifically the LSR family atmosphere at MAXTON...
Let's all remember the Family and Friendly atmosphere we all need to PROJECT and PROTECT both on here and at the track.
The one thing about History is that it already happened and we can learn from it,,,, this incident is HISTORY,,, now it's up to all of us to get past it and LEARN from it.
See you all in 3 weeks.
Charles
(still in pain from the shingles, but well enough to get on my soapbox) LOL
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Charles, good luck with your Shingles. How's the Lyrica working or do they have you on something else? :cheers:
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READ WHAT MR TURK PUT, IT WAS HOW THE RIDER RE-ACTED, AS HE SAYS IN THE DRIVERS MEETING STARTING LINE WINS! IT WAS HOW THE RIDER RE-ACTED AND TREATED THE OFFICIALS! IF HE WOULD HAVE KEPT HIS COOL, I BET HE COULD HAVE FIXED THE ISSUE IN 3 MINS, JUMPED RIGHT BACK IN LINE AND RUN! THATS JUST MY THOUGHTS, AND THE RULES ARE THE RULES.
TC
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READ WHAT MR TURK PUT, IT WAS HOW THE RIDER RE-ACTED, AS HE SAYS IN THE DRIVERS MEETING STARTING LINE WINS! IT WAS HOW THE RIDER RE-ACTED AND TREATED THE OFFICIALS! IF HE WOULD HAVE KEPT HIS COOL, I BET HE COULD HAVE FIXED THE ISSUE IN 3 MINS, JUMPED RIGHT BACK IN LINE AND RUN! THATS JUST MY THOUGHTS, AND THE RULES ARE THE RULES.
TC
Actually, the rider reacted very calmly intially to the unprovoked and wanton singling out by the starter and was respsectful and reasonable...initially. But given the starter's unwillingness to let the rider down the track and NO OTHER RIDERS HAVING THE SAME THING HAPPEN TO THEM changed things a bit. Make sense? How calm should one stay given continued irrational and unfair rulings by said starter?
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Let me try to state this more clearly for everyone’s benefit on the rule.
Yes the rule in print states that the numbers must be what, 3 inches? (don't have the rulebook in front of me) This is a product of our rules being based on SCTA rules. However, our track is not as distant as the SCTA tracks, we only have one track & our tower can see the vehicle start to finish so the ability to read the number from the tower doesn’t pose a safety concern or issue for us. Due to this and some other “old news” I won’t get into now, it has been officially overruled and for MANY years vehicle numbers written on tape unequivocally PASS TECH INSPECTION and are 100% legal. This is a decision that was made by the officials and when I say officials I mean the ECTA officers as written in the rule book IE: Race Director, President, head of tech... This is not an uncommon practice within the ECTA in regards to issues & rules that are not safety related. This is largely due to the more relaxed nature of the ECTA and many people like it that way.
The starter questioned the numbers while wandering past tech & was specifically told they were legal. This was NOT over looked. It was reviewed and approved and the starter was aware of this.
If the officials decide to adhere to and enforce the rule as written I don’t think anybody would have a problem with that but it needs to be communicated at the beginning of the meet before any vehicles are teched so it can be enforced across the board.
Alternatively, as always, anybody can submit a request for a rule change and could easily request that it be written in the rule book that a vehicle number written on a piece of tape of a given size is acceptable.
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hmm. Sort of on topic here....
in April I brought my Buell S1w to Maxton. The bike is a race bike with a bit of history and when I rolled it out of the trailer and to tech it still had the number plates and front number that it's had since it rolled out of the factory. I chose not to change the side number plates to facilitate any photo taking ( people do like to take pics of stuff...so I thought keeping it original was serving the photogs). I was asked at tech to change out the number plates...which were ready and in the trailer ( number plates that had my ECTA number and class) this was done on that request. I did not change the front number/fairing...mainly because it is not a location for an ECTA number nor was it in ECTA number format (2 digits). On my second run I was asked at the starting line if I could put tape over them, even though the starter said he knew that was not my bike number, I replied positively and the next run, which happend to be in May the bike had two strips of blue tape across the 21.
Although not the situation this thread started out on, it does show that my #21 on the number plate went through tech (with a double inspection) and then did one run with no issues.
The situation this thread is about should have been dealt with the same way by the starter. bring it to the rider's/driver's attention and ask them to correct it for the next run.
I do not see numbering as a safety issue but an ECTA operational issue, and the whole issue could have been dealt with differently ( probably from all sides)
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just my two cents and I am sorry in advance. They are not worth it.
I don't see anyone in the right here. And I see a lot of hard feelings among people I love.
First of all .If a rule is "Officially" over ruled for many years .It should be changed in the rule book . If it is not in the book .What is in the book IS the rule until the next printing. Why is this is important ?
If some one goes real fast and sets a record without adhering to the rules in the book. Than someone else that just lost the record or I guess anyone else can Protest the run. Now the protest can be " officially" overruled .But WHY put yourself in that vulnerable position?Why would you show up without 3 inch numbers on you bike? Are you trying to save tape?
The started should as should anyone point out something during tech inspection.It is not to hurt the participant but to insure that IF they set a record they know all the rules are followed . But if you see something and it is not a safety issue . Just say "get the numbers changed before you come back". But send them down the track . Don't make everyone wait while you argue over the amount of tape on the bike. Or the length of a fairing. Just point it out and send them on . If something is loose that is a different story
I did not see what happen that day I was not there. But please in June I would like to see hugs and hand shakes from the best people I have ever been around .
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Slim,
The "lax adherence" to the number size rule has been agreed upon. We've allowed numbers written on tape for many years. The starter that pulled him from the line questioned the numbers while the bike was in tech and was specifically told by the tech inspector that they were fine and passed tech. In fact, 3 techs signed off on the numbers. I understand we're all volunteers here but what I don't understand is how a starter can override a non-safety related tech/impound issue when it was specifically asked and answered while the bike was being teched. I can understand if there was a safety issue, but this was an impound issue at best and the starter that made the judgement is not a trained motorcycle tech or impound tech.
I know we don't want to tick off our volunteers here but when a mistake, poor judgement or overstepping of bounds is made, why are we not correcting the issue with the volunteer? I get a repremand at just about every meet for inadvertently doing something wrong. It's OK to correct me as a volunteer when just about every time nobody is negatively effected let alone kept from running? Often times I'm corrected mostly for the appearance, as in, you're really OK but we don't want people to just do such & such so please don't do it. But when someone is singled out and not allowed to run we blame the racer? I don't understand how a volunteer that is not a trained motorcycle tech can overrule the decision of a trained motorcycle tech without discussing it with the head motorcycle tech or any other official beforehand. This was not just a on the line heat of the moment decision. It was asked & answered in tech and the volunteer took it upon themselves to override the ruling. I just don't get it.
So, to summarize, the undersize numbers written on tape has been officially allowed for many years and nobody should be called out on it without everyone with undersized numbers being called out. There were other underlying issues that brought on this decision some time ago. If any of the volunteers has issue with this I'm sure everyone is open to discussion to see if a change or futher adherence to the written rule should be made.
Just my volunteer thoughts.
So, does this make it "OK" to cuss out the starter (as was the case here)? Just curious.
I was screamed at by a starter (not the one in question, btw), to the point that his spit was on my face (even though another respected volunteer had authorized my actions), but I respected the track and his position. I guess I should have screamed back?
I would hate to see "double-standards" applied. Thanks for clarifying the proper trackside response to a starter/volunteer.
Shane
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Why is anyone screaming, are we not adults? Maybe someone needs a bitch slap. :mrgreen:
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While we are all adults, not all act that way when placed in a position of authority, or when facing authority.
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While we are all adults, not all act that way when placed in a position of authority, or when facing authority.
Over the years what I have found, is that most people do not mind or have a problem with Authority "as long as they are the one's with it".... :cheers: :cheers:
See you all on the 26th.
Charles