Landracing Forum

Loring Timing Association (Maine) => Loring (AFB) land speed venue => Topic started by: Bob Wanner on November 15, 2009, 10:36:16 PM

Title: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: Bob Wanner on November 15, 2009, 10:36:16 PM
"TedGram" suggested in another topic anyone had any questions/changes suggestions to our Rules (which are a clone of the ECTA Book).
We are open to any and all ideas or opinions.
Please to post after researching the book to make your idea isn't already covered.
The Archives of  land-speed@autox.team.net are an excellent source of previous discussions.
That's what we want, well thought out questions.
 We'll kick them around, technically, realistically, legally, safely .
All the contemporary concerns.
Sometimes the obvious is ignored by the inconvenience of reality.
I hope everybody posts soon so any possible changes/additions can be in the new RuleBook. 
BOB W 

 
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: White Monster on November 16, 2009, 10:02:43 AM
Bob,
When are you planning to release the new Rule Book ?
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: Bob Wanner on November 16, 2009, 04:57:06 PM
Dear White,
As we have the luxury currently of not having our event until August, we can put our version of the RuleBook out later than the ECTA, who has their first event four  months earlier. This is not to say we'll deliberately delay it, it's just we don't need it to be available early in spring like ECTA's.
In reality, most of you know our book will be practically a clone of the ECTA book, just different records from our initial event, and local stuff F.Y.I.
Bob W
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: tedgram on November 17, 2009, 07:07:08 PM
  Having an car that has a turbo from the manufacture and running in production. I would like to see the fire suit requirement for closed blown & turbo cars running production & super street changed to read 135-150 mph SFI 3.2A/5, 150-200 mph SFI 3.2A/15, over 200mph SFI 3.2A/20. 


Dear White,
As we have the luxury currently of not having our event until August, we can put our version of the RuleBook out later than the ECTA, who has their first event four  months earlier. This is not to say we'll deliberately delay it, it's just we don't need it to be available early in spring like ECTA's.
In reality, most of you know our book will be practically a clone of the ECTA book, just different records from our initial event, and local stuff F.Y.I.
Bob W

Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: Abominable Snowman on November 18, 2009, 08:24:11 AM
I would like better diagrams of what is an acceptable configuration of a 4 point, 6 point etc roll cage.
I agree with the previous post about the fire suit requirements for blown closed cars.
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: tedgram on November 18, 2009, 07:16:44 PM
  I am planing on building a six point with removeable door bars. I would like some feed back on the door bars.

I would like better diagrams of what is an acceptable configuration of a 4 point, 6 point etc roll cage.
I agree with the previous post about the fire suit requirements for blown closed cars.
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: RansomT on December 16, 2009, 10:59:50 AM
Been thinking hard about this one and I guess I'm the one to post it.  :-D

I noticed a rule that the Mojave Mile folks are using that got me thinking.  The 1.5 mile track at Loring is unique to say the least.  For some of us folks who mainly run the mile, going that extra 2640 feet yielded some surprising speeds. 

Instead of using the ECTA/LTA 5 mph cushion rule maybe we ought to rethink a slightly modified version.  Under the current rules, if a vehicle that is teched up to 200 mph traps at 206 then racing ends for them.  That 3% error basically has cost them the entire event.  You can say well they deserve it, but as we saw last August, some vehicles picked up as much as 20-25 mph from their 1 mile runs else where and I can say for sure that gauges (speedo, tachs, etc..) can easily be off by 5-7% as they approach their limit.

Which is why I suggest: That we set a realistic maximum speed limit based on their safety tech plus a percentage (over by 5% or 7% or 10%) in which the participate, if going more than 5 mph to x% would get their one and only warning. That particular run would not count for anything and the participate would not receive their speed slip.  If said participate goes more than 5 mph over their safety limit again, they go home. At any time a vehicle goes beyond the x% over, they go home.  In all cases of obtaining speeds above the safety tech limit, the vehicle must be brought up to the next safety tech level before participating in the next event.

BTW, the Mojave Mile is using 10% above as their maximum speed limit.
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: 2K10 SS on December 16, 2009, 05:52:57 PM
 I'm confused by the way you wrote your suggested rule.  Can you use the 200 mph example with your suggested rule?  Also if the vehicle can meet the next safety requirements at the same event, can they keep competing?
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: stratman59 on December 16, 2009, 06:27:48 PM
2k10ss,

For example if you are teched to 200 mph and you can go 10% over 200 or 220mph and if you go over 220 mph then you get warned the first and kicked out the second.
That's what i get out of it.
Just using 10% as a example.
At Maxton you get a 5 mph cushion.

Robbie
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: Bob Wanner on December 16, 2009, 07:18:20 PM
 
Been thinking hard about this one and I guess I'm the one to post it.  :-D

I noticed a rule that the Mojave Mile folks are using that got me thinking.  The 1.5 mile track at Loring is unique to say the least.  For some of us folks who mainly run the mile, going that extra 2640 feet yielded some surprising speeds. 

Instead of using the ECTA/LTA 5 mph cushion rule maybe we ought to rethink a slightly modified version.  Under the current rules, if a vehicle that is teched up to 200 mph traps at 206 then racing ends for them.  That 3% error basically has cost them the entire event.  You can say well they deserve it, but as we saw last August, some vehicles picked up as much as 20-25 mph from their 1 mile runs else where and I can say for sure that gauges (speedo, tachs, etc..) can easily be off by 5-7% as they approach their limit.

Which is why I suggest: That we set a realistic maximum speed limit based on their safety tech plus a percentage (over by 5% or 7% or 10%) in which the participate, if going more than 5 mph to x% would get their one and only warning. That particular run would not count for anything and the participate would not receive their speed slip.  If said participate goes more than 5 mph over their safety limit again, they go home. At any time a vehicle goes beyond the x% over, they go home.  In all cases of obtaining speeds above the safety tech limit, the vehicle must be brought up to the next safety tech level before participating in the next event.

 Ransom,
 I'm not pretentious enough to compare our still wet behind the ears venture to any other LSR type venue, I only know we choose to be a safe as possible.
Math here is 5 mph over 200 is 205, <10% over is still up to 219, NOT an option.
I'm getting steamed just remembering the handful that exceeded  the limits imposed on theirselves or vehicles and still broke past, some by ridiculous differences. If you can't tell if your car is 20mph over your assigned limit you are either very inexperienced and/or a liar, both of which are not welcome on our venue.
We did not throw out all the 5-10 mph violators, just the flagrant ones that obviously knew exactly what they did on purpose. 
Build your car to it's potential, pass tech, drive fast,that's it. 
Like I stated, The LTA is pretty new, and even if we are still around 20 years from now, we'll  continue to protect everybody's ass in spite of themselves.
PIA Bob W, LTA Guy 
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: Bob Wanner on December 16, 2009, 07:22:44 PM
"Acura", as in butt, derriere, life, father /mother of your children, snall stuff like  that.
BW
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: Cajun Kid on December 16, 2009, 08:50:54 PM
Bob W,,, yes I agree  safety first.... a few MPH is a cushion,, obvious violations of the yech limit are not acceptable.

See you in July

Charles
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on December 16, 2009, 09:22:27 PM
Oh, Charles, forgive me but I can't let it go without a yank on your chain. . .

"...violations of the yech limit are not acceptable."  -- meaning some item that is way beyond icky and yucky and makes you get an upset tummy just by looking at it, right, and that's what's not allowed?
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: Cajun Kid on December 16, 2009, 09:46:33 PM
Jon  you have a Warped sense of humor,,, I love it,,, you are one cool dude,,,

I deserve that,,, my brain thinks much faster than my clumsy fingers can type,,, hmm and I hit send without proof reading ( as it appears many of us on here do ?? )

Charles
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: White Monster on December 17, 2009, 09:38:54 AM
I thought I'd chime in here with a couple of points, to reiterate what Bob posted.

Firstly, If a vehicle is not Tech'd past a certain speed, that means that knowledgeable officials have determined that the vehicle is not safe past that speed.  Safety in our sport is paramount.

Secondly, License Qualifications are to show ability of many different criteria, one being "control" over your vehicle, of which one aspect is speed.  If you are unable to control your vehicle, then new equipment (gauges) or methods (gear / rpm calculations) should definitely be considered.  Lack of exhibiting control can lead to a reduction of your License and/or expulsion from the event.  In belligerently defied cases, it can even lead to a "And don't ever come back" comment from the Race Director.

 :wink:
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: RansomT on December 17, 2009, 09:53:01 AM
Let me modify, restate my suggestion and then give an example based on real numbers.  I am not in any way trying to take away from safety, nor trying to skirt around the rules.  I was just surprised on much gain some of us saw as compared to Maxton and because of the extremely large/smooth/safe shutdown area that we do have, a little more than a 5 MPH cushion rule should be considered.  I would hate to send a LSR racer home because they got wrapped up in the excitement and missed their target speed by a few MPH.

2 strikes and you are out rule:   If a vehicle exceeds their safety class by more the 5 MPH cushion, but less than 10 MPH, then the run will not be recorded and they will receive their one and only warning.  If the vehicle exceeds the 5 MPH cushion again, then it will not be allow to run again.

Example:  I am currently working on a Kawasaki  EX-500 that I attend to run in M/F 500-4.  I anticipate that the bike will run in the 115-119 mph range at Maxton, well below the 125 MPH rule for a required Steering Damper.   So I take the bike to Loring, about a 1500 mile trip for me.  Weather is great and on the first pass down the track I run a 131.5 MPH.  Under the current rules, I am asked to pack up and go home.  Under the proposed rule change, I am given my only warning, note that my tachometer is off by 500 RPMS at those speeds, adjust accordingly and have a ball the rest of the event.   As a side note:  And before it is suggested; there are several in-depth discussions about installing a Steering Damper on a EX-500 on-line, if you read those you will find the experienced roadracers say that it makes the bike more unstable and it is not safe.

And like you Bob, I too get miffed when folks just blatantly disregard the rules, ESPECIALLY rules about safety.   
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: White Monster on December 17, 2009, 10:15:41 AM
Firstly, let me modify, restate my comments and then give an example based on real life experiences.

Secondly, I understand everything you are saying and what you are asking, really, I do.  But having said that, the possibility of being "sent home" is the only leverage a sanctioning organisation has, to motivate participants to comply with all the Rules.  We hope that racers and crews put their personal safety above having fun, but that does not always occur.  It is unfortunate, but it is what it is.

Officials hate sending an LSR racer home in a box, because they got wrapped up in the excitement,  exceeded the speed their vehicle was rated for and had an accident.  Unfortunately, this does happen in the imperfect world we live in and we are charged with keeping everyone safe, in spite of themselves.

Lastly, I am not trying to give you a hard time, just trying to let you understand the issue from our perspective.
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: RansomT on December 17, 2009, 10:32:40 AM
Firstly, let me modify, restate my comments and then give an example based on real life experiences.

Secondly, I understand everything you are saying and what you are asking, really, I do.  But having said that, the possibility of being "sent home" is the only leverage a sanctioning organisation has, to motivate participants to comply with all the Rules.  We hope that racers and crews put their personal safety above having fun, but that does not always occur.  It is unfortunate, but it is what it is.

Officials hate sending an LSR racer home in a box, because they got wrapped up in the excitement,  exceeded the speed their vehicle was rated for and had an accident.  Unfortunately, this does happen in the imperfect world we live in and we are charged with keeping everyone safe, in spite of themselves.

Lastly, I am not trying to give you a hard time, just trying to let you understand the issue from our perspective.

and this is why I posted this in a public place, for debate.  So we (I) can understand both sides.  I don’t take any comments personal, heck I was the one that brought this up and I knew I needed to put my big boy pants on when I did.   8-)
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: White Monster on December 17, 2009, 10:59:45 AM
and this is why I posted this in a public place, for debate.  So we (I) can understand both sides.  I don’t take any comments personal, heck I was the one that brought this up and I knew I needed to put my big boy pants on when I did.

Hey, it is a reasonable question and it has been asked before.  Very worthwhile for discussion.

I by no means am trying to say my view is the "end-all" of the discussion, especially where the LTA is concerned, it is just my measly two-cents worth.

Also worth a mention, aside from our personal morals, values and ethics (we have to sleep at night too),
I am also fully aware of what the insurance companies would do, if they found out the rules had been changed to allow participants to exceed speeds that were established for the racer's safety and well being.
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: RansomT on December 17, 2009, 11:03:32 AM

Also worth a mention, aside from our personal morals, values and ethics (we have to sleep at night too),
I am also fully aware of what the insurance companies would do, if they found out the rules had been changed to allow participants to exceed speeds that were established for the racer's safety and well being.

Now that is the reason I thought it was in the rule book the way it is ... and if the insurance copy says it needs to stay the way it is, it needs to stay the way it is!
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: relaxedfit on December 17, 2009, 12:59:10 PM
Veering off topic, could someone steer me to the damper safety thread?
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: RansomT on December 17, 2009, 01:28:29 PM
For the Ninja 500 (EX-500) ??

http://www.ex-500.com/index.php/topic,1240.0.html (http://www.ex-500.com/index.php/topic,1240.0.html)

http://www.ex-500.com/index.php/topic,7049.0.html (http://www.ex-500.com/index.php/topic,7049.0.html)

http://www.ex-500.com/index.php/topic,5278.0.html (http://www.ex-500.com/index.php/topic,5278.0.html)

There was another on a road race dedicated board that I can't find right now ... is was linked from ex-500.com, it was really harsh.
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: MiltonP on December 19, 2009, 05:21:32 PM
I am out of town so haven't been reading infor a few days.  I, like several others, was not expecting to run 12 mph faster at Loring.  I was running 'new to me gearing' and wasn't sure what I was going to pull off. It would have been a real bummer if that had been saturday am and if I had not been tech'd for it.  That said, there shouldn't be any surprises next time around so I can live with the 4.999 rule.  I do think some thought should be given to punishment of a slight goof versus an intentional flat out and whatever run and I like to think that would be the case if it happened.

By the way, we just have to find Ransom that Old Bike Barn steering damper that worked out real well for my ex500 before we head to Maine if not earlier.  There is a Daytona brand that may also fit but it was almost twice as much if I recall.  Everyone have a happy holiday.  Oh, and Jon, thanks for the great write-up on the front page on Gene.  Happy holidays and see you soon.   :cheers:
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: 2K10 SS on February 02, 2010, 07:44:22 PM
   Bob,
     You said the LTA rulebook will almost duplicate the ECTA rulebook.  My suggestion would be to clarify the issue with the unibody car support pads for rollbar mounting points.  The ECTA book says to sandwich 1/4" plates to the floor at the mounting points.  The problem I have is my 72 firebird project rollbar mounting points would be better on the rocker sill plate.  This wouldn"t let me sandwich the plates 100%. I even checked with a chassis shop, Delaware Chassis Works, for their suggestions.  He agreed with me that this rule is very vague.  His suggestion was to spotweld 1/4" plate to top of sill only.  Do you agree?
  Also the ECTA site has clarified the head & neck restraint rule.  All cars, old & new, require it in 2011.  Will this rule be in the LTA rulebook as they posted it?
  Since I am in the process of building this car, any early information about LTA rules will be appreciated.  Looking forward to 2K10 Loring.
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: tedgram on February 02, 2010, 08:13:15 PM
  Bob,
     You said the LTA rulebook will almost duplicate the ECTA rulebook.  My suggestion would be to clarify the issue with the unibody car support pads for rollbar mounting points.  The ECTA book says to sandwich 1/4" plates to the floor at the mounting points.  The problem I have is my 72 firebird project rollbar mounting points would be better on the rocker sill plate.  This wouldn"t let me sandwich the plates 100%. I even checked with a chassis shop, Delaware Chassis Works, for their suggestions.  He agreed with me that this rule is very vague.  His suggestion was to spotweld 1/4" plate to top of sill only.  Do you agree?
  Also the ECTA site has clarified the head & neck restraint rule.  All cars, old & new, require it in 2011.  Will this rule be in the LTA rulebook as they posted it?
  Since I am in the process of building this car, any early information about LTA rules will be appreciated.  Looking forward to 2K10 Loring.

I would like a ruling on this also. The rule book says 1/8 inch plates if welded. Have had no feedback on removable door bars, I have asked about this before..
Title: Re: LTA Rulebook Changes
Post by: Cajun Kid on February 02, 2010, 11:39:47 PM
Ted,,, you may not get a "firm" answer on door bars.  Each application is differant,, there is no "stock" answer on door bars,,,

As in cage material,,, it is easy,, as it is spelled out,, example,,   1 5/8  .120 wall  or 1 3/4 .120 nominal wall  etc.

Cage design, mounting points, door bars, funny car cages, removable door bars, flat plate gussets vs tubular gussets,, etc,,, each application has variations.

Good luck,, keep us posted.

Charles