Landracing Forum

Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: T-34 on November 03, 2009, 07:54:54 PM

Title: Aussie Oval
Post by: T-34 on November 03, 2009, 07:54:54 PM
G'day all, Greetings from down under.

Building a project for next years speed week here in Australia, one of the guys from the DLRA forums mentioned landracing.com as a pretty good resource, so thought I'd drop in and say hi.

My project is based around a '56 oval windowed beetle. The engine is a Type 4 based 2.7 litre turbocharged with EFI from another car of mine. not sure where to go with gearbox yet.

Got a whole load of stuff to do before it's ready, and no doubt lots of questions.

Here's some pics...

(http://www.vdubber.com/media/images/sharingImages/308_m.jpg)

(http://www.vdubber.com/media/images/profile/1/photo_1237820381.jpg)

(http://www.vdubber.com/media/images/sharingImages/2_m.jpg)

Plans are to split pan from body and replace pan halves, rebuild / replace brakes and suspension, bolt it back together, stick in a cage, safety gear, the engine and box and then have some fun.

(Sounds so easy when you say it fast.)

 :-D

Mick Percy.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: Stainless1 on November 03, 2009, 08:10:49 PM
3 inch chop and a tube chassis.... will be a lot stiffer for going fast
good luck with your project
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: Geo on November 03, 2009, 08:12:00 PM
My first car was a oval window beetle.  I worked at a VW dealer one summer.  The type 4 was a favorite for the base of a race motor.

Wow!  Ther's a Jagular behind the VW!

Welcome to the site.  Looking forward to the build.

Geo
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: bbarn on November 03, 2009, 08:13:42 PM
Hi Mick,

I'm rather new to the LSR stuff so I don't know how much "advice" I can give you, but there are PLENTY of willing and able people around here to give you good advice and help you go as fast as you can.

As for gearbox, I don't know how well they work for LSR, but a Berg 5 on an aircooled VW is pretty tough to beat. For a really good resource on VW performance, you can try thesamba.com. I don't think I ever saw an LSR article or posting over there, but there are some real knowledgable VW/AC performance folks over there.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=606493

Love the oval, keep posting info about your build, I'd love to see how it turns out.

Are you looking at being have this ready for Gairdner in March?
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: T-34 on November 03, 2009, 08:45:44 PM
3 inch chop and a tube chassis.... will be a lot stiffer for going fast

This is not such a strange suggestion - my original plans were to build a volks-rod - chopped and sectioned, but the oval kinda turned up and kept nagging away at me to buy it - lol. Will get this running first though - the rod may be on the table for future years (would hack up a later model bug instead though)

Wow!  Ther's a Jagular behind the VW!

lol - yeah - one of the (too) many projects I have. Should probably sell it to finance the Bug, but just can't bear to part with it.

... a Berg 5 on an aircooled VW is pretty tough to beat.

Are you looking at being have this ready for Gairdner in March?

The Berg 5 is a good proposal but they are simply too expensive for me (the box in the link is pretty much twice what I paid for the whole car!!). I've already got a 915 box (Porsche 5 speed) from the same car the engine came from, but to fit it involves cutting the pan and converting to IRS, which i want to avoid if i can. What I'm trying to figure out is if there are ratios / diffs available for the 'stock' 4 speed VW transmission as this would be my preference.

Yes - the plans are to have it ready for Speedweek 2010, lots to do, and not much time.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: Dr Goggles on November 03, 2009, 09:46:58 PM
Hey up,
good to have you here....you've said it now.....next year???.....did you see the late(r) model bug that was at the lake this year?..... I'm thinking you really need a lot longer than four months to digest all the info and possible alternative approaches you might take on that one... Stainless's suggestion

 
Quote
3 inch chop and a tube chassis.... will be a lot stiffer for going fast
good luck with your project

would be a smart way to go about it if you aren't planning on using it for anything else....

personally I would keep that body for a street car, but that's me, I once had a hand cut lug racing frame for a bicycle that i stripped , left outside for a few months and then shot with clear.....it was gorgeous.

If I were you I'd move that Jag a little further away in case the tin worms go from making visits to the Dub to just moving in and devour the whole thing....

Looking forward to meeting you out at the Lake , if you haven't been there yet you are in for a treat, it is the most beautiful place in the world if you ask me
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: Derek Mitchell on November 03, 2009, 10:04:54 PM
If it was me, and it isn't I know :D, I would make it a mid engine to better distribute the weight in the chassis. The one thing I noticed playing with beetles is when they start to get out of shape, they like to swap ends with all the weight in the back. You'd still get good traction on the mid engine setup.

Just something to think about.

Good luck with the build.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: T-34 on November 03, 2009, 10:36:23 PM
I was out at the lake this year - I did manage to say hi to you guys - You were talking to my buddy Phil and his son - maybe you remember him?? he was the guy building a supercharged XM Futura?? Love the Lakester BTW - awesome bit of kit that.

I've been following the salt for past couple of years now, we originally were going to come out in 2008 but as you know - rain ruined play, so this year was the first year for us. Wanted to check it out before committing to building something, so hopefully I've got my head around what i want / need to do.

As far as keeping it for a street car -  You might be surprised to learn that Beetle's are not really my thing - I bought it purely to use as a race car. I'm a confirmed aircooled VW nut but I prefer Karmann Ghias and Splitty's (early kombi's). This is actually the first Bug I've ever owned. I might street register it but not sure yet. The only reason I would consider this is to run the engine in as it has zero miles.

The idea with the bug is that it will be used for drag racing the rest of the year (the fact that Adelaide doesn't have a strip is a minor detail - lol) and then when speedweek comes around - swap out the gearbox and see if I can better the previous years speed. Well - that's the theory - lol

Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: T-34 on November 03, 2009, 10:49:49 PM
If it was me, and it isn't I know :D, I would make it a mid engine to better distribute the weight in the chassis. The one thing I noticed playing with beetles is when they start to get out of shape, they like to swap ends with all the weight in the back. You'd still get good traction on the mid engine setup.

Just something to think about.

Good luck with the build.

I agree - once rear engined cars break grip, the rear end comes around pretty quickly, although I'm hoping that there's not too many corners in the track to push the limit :-D

Weight distribution is a bit of a concern - VW's can get quite light when it comes to steering - especially when lowered, as the castor angle is reduced - you can reset the angle with shims, but there is still precious little weight in the front end. I'm considering relocating the battery up front and will mount the remote tank for the dry sump setup, and possibly the bottle for the fire suppression system there too. Not sure about the wisdom of mounting the battery next to the fuel tank though!

One advantage is that there is a lot of weight on the rear wheels so there is improved traction, this is one reason why Bugs do pretty well at standing quarters.

Happy to hear others thoughts on weight distribution.

Mick Percy.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 04, 2009, 12:01:44 AM
Hey mate, just build some weight boxes to fit up front on the floor pan & pour em fulla lead. I messed with Racing Road Maggots back in NZ in the 70's & they did just about everything better with lead up front. Weight won't hurt terminal speed, just means you'll get there facing the right direction.  If the class rules allow it, hang a whale tail on that thing, it cleans the aero up heaps on a maggot.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: T-34 on November 04, 2009, 12:12:12 AM
Hey mate, just build some weight boxes to fit up front on the floor pan & pour em fulla lead. I messed with Racing Road Maggots back in NZ in the 70's & they did just about everything better with lead up front. Weight won't hurt terminal speed, just means you'll get there facing the right direction.  If the class rules allow it, hang a whale tail on that thing, it cleans the aero up heaps on a maggot.

Had considered a weight box or some kind of bolt on weights in the spare wheel well. Was inspired by the Shaguar thread over at DLRA forums where they have adjustable sliding weights in the sills.

Dunno about a whale tail tho - they just plain fugly  :-D
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: jacksoni on November 04, 2009, 07:57:35 AM
If it was me, and it isn't I know :D, I would make it a mid engine to better distribute the weight in the chassis. The one thing I noticed playing with beetles is when they start to get out of shape, they like to swap ends with all the weight in the back. You'd still get good traction on the mid engine setup.

Just something to think about.

Good luck with the build.
And this is different how from the tendency to fix traction problems by putting lead in the trunk over the rear axle? :oops:
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: Dr Goggles on November 04, 2009, 05:12:15 PM
I was out at the lake this year - I did manage to say hi to you guys - You were talking to my buddy Phil and his son - maybe you remember him?? he was the guy building a supercharged XM Futura?? Love the Lakester BTW - awesome bit of kit that.
Yes , vaguely.....frankly I was so up tight* for the whole week that I really don't remember all that many fine details...but there's nothing like the mention of a Karman Ghia or a Futura to get my attention.

Your job now is to sort through the mountain of valuable , conflicting advice that people will offer, and make your own story out of it.

* Just yesterday I remembered how I felt when I took the first run on the test track and couldn't see subaru because of the vibration in my helmet from the cheek bars touching it. For a couple of minutes I thought all was lost, I think the shock of that went beyond the exhilaration of the first run.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: T-34 on November 04, 2009, 08:04:34 PM
I guess with all of the advice in the world, the only real way to know is to take that first run.

I'm always amazed to think that for many that run faster vehicles, such as yourself, the only time you get to have a proper shakedown at high speed is when you get out on the salt, it must be nerve-racking.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 05, 2009, 12:50:30 AM
 The place we ran weight boxes back then was on the floor pan in the steering cavity, that got it low & on the chassis. Lots of room down there & easy to get to with a wheel off. The spare wheel well is in the body, not a good place for weight.
 If you want to put more pos caster in the front end, just space out the lower torsion bar tube at the chassis mount & then set the ride hight.
 Let me tell you a story about the tail. We ran a 64 small window club car 2180 bla bla bla. It would tach 5 grand down the main strait consistantly. Mid race one time it picked up 500rpm after someone had tapped me in the arse, it turned out the engine hatch was sticking straight out. We closed the door & lost the 500rpm. So from that we decided to build a tail, so we built a dead flat one out of a chunk of 3/4 form ply & did some testing. It started out at 2ft long (looked like a barbique plate) & we just cut it back a little at a time until the car started to loose rpm. Took it off & lost the 500, put it back on & got the 500 back. We built a nice looking one out of another hunk of that free red form ply & glassed over it to de-ugly the thing. It ended up being 15 or 16" deep & came around past the air vents with 2 braces down to the body beside the engine hatch. It was below the air vents. Not toooo ugly but fast-er. It got dubbed the barbique plate so we had a sausage, a sav & an egg painted on it, really.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: T-34 on November 05, 2009, 01:10:01 AM
The place we ran weight boxes back then was on the floor pan in the steering cavity, that got it low & on the chassis. Lots of room down there & easy to get to with a wheel off. The spare wheel well is in the body, not a good place for weight.

Didn't think of there - agreed - there's definitely a lot of space and it would sit lower too. Was thinking along the lines of furthest forward to bring the C of G nearer to the center of the car. What's more important? C of G lower or in centre of car?
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: Dr Goggles on November 05, 2009, 04:55:54 PM
. Mid race one time it picked up 500rpm after someone had tapped me in the arse, it turned out the engine hatch was sticking straight out. We closed the door & lost the 500rpm. So from that we decided to build a tail,


just curious, did the guy who raninto you demand royalties on the design?

It got dubbed the barbique plate so we had a sausage, a sav & an egg painted on it, really.
aaaaand, let me guess you wore an apron over your race suit....
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 06, 2009, 12:13:19 AM
 I'm big on getting the cg forward of half way & the cp as far back as possible, it just makes sence to not try & shove an arrow backwards. I've seen too many back heavy cars come unglued at the salt. You can put a lot of lead down in the steering cavity to weight the front up without unloading the rear, which is what would happen if you put weight in the spare wheel well. The cp is going to be tough to do much about on a beetle. Hitler never thought we'd be racin these things, but I believe the tail will help. I'm not sure who came up with the tail first, me or Porsche, it was about the same time. They had fences & spoilers & all sorts of stuff on theirs, we just had painted food on our barbique plate.
 Ya know what , that gets me thinkin, I've never seen a good old ozzy style barbie up here on the big island (US). You know what I mean, a pile of bricks with a hunk of 1/4 plate on top with a fire under it, I miss that!
 I ran into a bloke from WA at speedweek this year & he said to me " you've been gone too long mate".
 I think he was right.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 08, 2009, 11:27:56 AM
Hey Doc, That little episode turned into a bit of a blue in the pit. Can ya still handle protests that way down there? As for racing suits back then, what ever you were wearing was good but stubbies & thongs were out. & for the dummies, stubbies are shorts & thongs are flip-flops, not to be confused with the other thong!
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: Lynchy on November 08, 2009, 09:40:19 PM
Quote
Was inspired by the Shaguar thread

Well at least someone was!!!!!

Quote
If I were you I'd move that Jag a little further away in case the tin worms go from making visits to the Dub to just moving in and devour the whole thing....

Dr G - whenever I walk past one of the spare Jags that Gary has, I give it a kick and a few kilo's of rust fall out. The car now has a red ring around it and if you push on the rear bumper the whole car distorts. If we wait long enough, we won't have to unbolt the engine.....!

Lynchy
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: T-34 on November 09, 2009, 10:56:24 PM
Quote
Was inspired by the Shaguar thread

Well at least someone was!!!!!

Quote
If I were you I'd move that Jag a little further away in case the tin worms go from making visits to the Dub to just moving in and devour the whole thing....

Dr G - whenever I walk past one of the spare Jags that Gary has, I give it a kick and a few kilo's of rust fall out. The car now has a red ring around it and if you push on the rear bumper the whole car distorts. If we wait long enough, we won't have to unbolt the engine.....!

Lynchy

LOL my Mk2 is deceiving - it's actually pretty solid, it just looks like a complete POS. The PO's niece decided she would help her uncle 'restore' it by sanding half of the paint off. I almost considered it for the salt as the interior is shot (got quotes of 2-3k just for re-veneering) but couldn't be arsed to do an engine rebuild. Was getting it ready as a daily driver, but too many other projects got in it's way. One day it will live again.

Love the Shaguar build. but being an ex POM I think I would run a V12 or a 6 in there instead of the V8, but that's just me.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: Dr Goggles on November 09, 2009, 11:13:48 PM
I almost considered it for the salt as the interior is shot (got quotes of 2-3k just for re-veneering)
A guy I worked for who was a Jag nut had me put together a Van den Plas replica, painted it ,put all the VdP interior in it ( for some strange reason the original VdP rusted out)....he had the dash and other stuff done...a mate of his was sitting in it at Bob's insistance when Bob pointed out the burl walnut ..." yeah Bob, that's something nice to look at while you're waiting for a tow-truck"....all dead pan.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: T-34 on November 10, 2009, 04:23:05 PM
I almost considered it for the salt as the interior is shot (got quotes of 2-3k just for re-veneering)
A guy I worked for who was a Jag nut had me put together a Van den Plas replica, painted it ,put all the VdP interior in it ( for some strange reason the original VdP rusted out)....he had the dash and other stuff done...a mate of his was sitting in it at Bob's insistance when Bob pointed out the burl walnut ..." yeah Bob, that's something nice to look at while you're waiting for a tow-truck"....all dead pan.

LOL reminds me of the phrase "Chrome don't get you home"
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: T-34 on November 12, 2009, 04:17:10 PM
I posted this over at the DLRA forums, but thought I'd stick it here too...
Quote
OK, Think I've decided to go with the 915 box. It's pretty much a no brainer really - a new box will cost me big $$$$'s but the IRS conversion will cost me next to nothing. I've resolved myself to the fact that cutting the car is the way to go. Just need to source some IRS arms.

Also the 915 box will do for the first outing with stock ratios. I will play about with a different final drive for the following year after I've figured out what works / doesn't etc... This is what I've managed to figure out so far:

The gearbox is from a Stock 1983 Porsche 911 SC - here's the specs

Top Speed : 146.02223mph
Power : 201bhp @ @ 5900 rpm
Torque : 267.0 Nm (197 ft·lb) (27.2 kgm) @ 4300 rpm
Final drive : 3.88
Top gear : 0.82
Rear Tyres : 215/60 VR 15

Radius of rear tyre is 319.5 and the circumference is 2007.48 - Taken from handy calculator - http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg2.html

The tyres I'm planning on using are Goodyear LSR's the smallest ones have a circumference of 2111.

So from a little maths the difference that the additional size makes takes theoretical top speed up to 153 mph - for a stock 911 SC runnning at peak revs of 5900 rpm

My main differences are that I have a little more power (hopefully another hundred horses) but probably less revs (I want to set rev limit at 5500 as I don't want to overstress the engine)

This means that theoretical top speed is brought back to 143

All of this is obviously dependent on being able to get the car to that speed (grip / weight / drag / wind etc) But I guess i won't find this out until i get the car out there.

I'm pretty confident I can beat 100mph which is all I will commit to for the first outing, but I would like to think that I could better this by some amount.

My only decision at the moment is this.

Ultimately it would be great to take the bug to 150 - this might take some years to achieve. So do I opt for the taller tyres? (2283 circumference) as this would equate to a theoretical top speed of 155 with the stock 3.88 R&P.

Thoughts. opinions?

Cheers

Mick.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 18, 2009, 12:01:43 AM
Hey Mick,
 It's easier to turn a big tyre than it is to turn a big gear. If you have ring & pinion options, start with the biggest tyre you can get in the fender well & a gear you figure you can pull, then you can move up in the gear department if you run out of R's. Plus you're only buying one set of tyres.  Sid.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: T-34 on November 18, 2009, 05:42:01 AM
There are both different R&P, and different gear ratio options for the 915 box - unfortunately they're not cheap - but they are widely available.

I think I'm leaning towards getting the taller tyres and leaving the box with the stock ratios for this coming year, and then figuring out where to go from there. Someone on the DLRA has suggested using VR / ZR rated tyres due to cost, so I might check them out but have a feeling I won't get same rolling radius as the LSR's.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: T-34 on November 18, 2009, 09:54:25 AM
OK bit of an update....

Finished stripping the shell. The doors, glass, wings interior etc are all safely stashed in the garage. Next stage is to unbolt the body from the floor pan and raise it up on trestles so that the floor-pan can be rolled out from underneath it.

Once the pan is out I will replace both pan halves as there is not really any point in trying to patch up the existing ones. I will also trial fit the 915 gearbox as it's easier to do this with the body off, but I will need put the body back on to check clearances before finally mounting the box in position.

When the pan is sorted i will re-mate it to the body and send it off to get the cage built. One benefit of the bug is that the body can be lifted to weld the tops of the cage - no holes in the floor pan required.

There's more wordy stuff over at my blog - http://www.vdubber.com/blogs/entry/Stripped-Naked (http://www.vdubber.com/blogs/entry/Stripped-Naked)

Here's a few pics...

(http://www.vdubber.com/media/images/sharingImages/329.jpg)

(http://www.vdubber.com/media/images/sharingImages/344.jpg)

(http://www.vdubber.com/media/images/sharingImages/333.jpg)

(http://www.vdubber.com/media/images/sharingImages/334.jpg)
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: Stainless1 on November 18, 2009, 06:18:20 PM

(http://www.vdubber.com/media/images/sharingImages/334.jpg)

The steering wheel appears to be on the wrong side...  :roll:
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on November 18, 2009, 07:28:43 PM
Nah, Stainless -- can't you tell that the photo is a reverse image?  The writing on the windshield is backwards, too.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: bbarn on November 18, 2009, 07:31:29 PM
Nah, Stainless -- can't you tell that the photo is a reverse image?  The writing on the windshield is backwards, too.

Oh, that's what it is! I thought it was just written in Australian and that's why I couldn't read it!
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: RidgeRunner on November 18, 2009, 08:57:13 PM
I thought everything got scrambled when it turned from upside down to right side up en route  :wink:
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: Dr Goggles on November 18, 2009, 11:16:33 PM

(http://www.vdubber.com/media/images/sharingImages/334.jpg)

The steering wheel appears to be on the wrong side...  :roll:
Gentlemen, Gentlemen.....that steering wheel is on the RIGHT side, were it on the other side ...it would be on the left...come on ya gotta gimme that one :wink:
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 19, 2009, 12:22:59 AM
A bunch of comedians. It's on the right side, if it was on the other side it would be on the wrong side.
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: T-34 on November 19, 2009, 12:47:14 AM
A bunch of comedians. It's on the right side, if it was on the other side it would be on the wrong side.

I can but agree  :-D  :wink:
Title: Re: Aussie Oval
Post by: T-34 on December 20, 2009, 06:59:28 AM
Mirror of post over at DLRA forums, for those who only frequent here...

Been doing a bit of swatting up on the rulebook, and also making a bit of progress on the build too, which is a good job as the little widget thingo on my desktop tells me that it's only 78 days to go.

 :shock:

The new running gear parts have been ordered and should be with me next week, the pans are already here. The body is off of the pan and the old pan halves have been cut out ready for the new ones. I've sourced the IRS components for the rear IRS conversion and have made a start by stripping the old front and rear suspension components off of the pan. Had a set of steel double banded wheels lined up but lost the guys number - D'Oh!

Next job is to get the gearbox fitted in and check clearances with the engine fitted. This will obviously require the body on, so the next week will probably involve fitting and removing the body a few times until things are sorted.

I've cut the rear valence to allow for easier engine fitting and removal and will be fitting some dzus fastners to hold this in place. This saves having to lift the car over the engine to fit it, and also provides better access to the engine for maintenance.

I've a Kirkey bucket seat on order from the states, and will be talking to CB performance tomorrow to get the induction system components sorted out. They have off the shelf plenum chambers for their own turbo kits that will suit my build perfectly and will save lots of fabricating time, although I intend to use a single throttle body rather than two 48IDA style throttle bodies they normally use. They also have a lot of other stuff that I simply cannot get locally, I just hope that they can ship it relatively quickly.

The car is booked in to have the cage made at Donegal engineering in the new year, one big prob with this is that the turnaround I've been given is about a month, which is simply too long. So I'm currently investigating other alternatives - top of my list is to see if I can buy a cage from another bug, or buy an off the shelf kit.  hopefully I will know more in the next couple of days.

Also paid a visit to the local race shop and had a look at race-wear packages - gloves + boots + suit + underwear + helmets.  Also had a look at fuel tanks, fire suppression and other such stuff. Picked up a few goodies to get on with.

The pan should be mostly finished this week, hopefully I can get it painted, assembled and rolling before the new year, then I can get the cage sorted (somehow) and start fabricating the header system. Still lots to do, and I might hopefully make it - provided I don't lose a month to getting the cage made up.

Anyhows - here's some pics...

(http://www.vdubber.com/media/images/sharingImages/475.jpg)

The body off of the pan

(http://www.vdubber.com/media/images/sharingImages/476.jpg)

One of the new pan halves. Much easier to replace the whole pan half, then try to patch the old one up.

(http://www.vdubber.com/media/images/sharingImages/479.jpg)

The old suspension removed and one of the IRS arms offered up.

(http://www.vdubber.com/media/images/sharingImages/478.jpg)

The Rear IRS suspension setup I sourced. This is basically from a later model bug and fits right on. The only modification is that the inner pivot housings need to be added to the swingaxle pan - these are available off the shelf.

(http://www.vdubber.com/media/images/sharingImages/480.jpg)

Pan halves removed and pan completely stripped.

(http://www.vdubber.com/media/images/sharingImages/481.jpg)

Pan halves trial fitted. I will leave these off for the time being as it makes the pan a little easier to handle on my own.

There's some more pics, vids etc over at my site (see below).

Mick.