Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Jonny Hotnuts on August 23, 2009, 05:52:58 PM
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This last SW I got to spend a lot of time with a guy named Lee Kennedy. Basically he was very anti the fronts (14X5) I was using (although after shaving the rubber off and pulling some weight they went over 208 and a spin and they still look mint).
However I was told not to bring the car back if I plan on running +200 with them.
Not going to argue this statement and I dont know if anyone else has had dealings with LK I know he just has my best interest at heart and truthfully like the guy (even though he can be a little hard lined).
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I had also just simply overlooked a 200 MPH requirement.
This is that all cars over 200 need 5 bolt wheels with 1" lugs.
I had 4 bolt with .75 lugs.
I was allowed to run but had to add 2 additional lugs for a total of 6 per wheel.
I can promise that adding lugs to a wheel in the middle of a desert is not the easiest thing to do but made it work.
Before I even got home I was already on the line about getting the 5 bolt hubs that are on Gen II Mazda Rx7s for the turbo model. These hubs are like gold because for whatever reason people racing SCCA (or other) want to have the 5 bolt wheels.
My pops found a guy up the street from where he lives with a complete set of turbo Rx7 rear componets and let him have:
Primary control arms
Rotors
Hubs including bearings
Axles with CVs (both)
Calipers
(the bearing hubs already had the anti rear steer bushings installed...the bushings alone are about 75$).
All for 50$.
Needless to say I would of paid 50 or more for the hubs alone!
(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs194.snc1/6532_1204982040746_1114496579_30680777_6614197_n.jpg)
Here are the coveted 5 bolt hubs.
(http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs174.snc1/6532_1204982080747_1114496579_30680778_1637756_n.jpg)
To be able to fit the 1" lugs (1-1/16th for next year) I had to change from the 12MMX1.5 studs to the other. It almost looks tiny sitting next to the new fat one!
(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs194.snc1/6532_1204982000745_1114496579_30680776_3210246_n.jpg)
Here is the diffrence between the brake rotors.
Clearly the turbo version is a better rotor and even though brakes are not the best thing to slow ya down on the salt, I like knowing that these brakes are better suited for high speed use.
I vowed not to let myself get into the last minute rush that has plagued me for the last 3 years. I want to have this car done and ready to go months before SW. (*funny, I said this last year also!).
~JH
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JH;
With a deal like that, you should paint the guy up the street's name on your car as a sponsor!
Congratulations on making the heroic thrash work there in the pit. :cheers:
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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This last SW I got to spend a lot of time with a guy named Lee Kennedy. Basically he was very anti the fronts (14X5) I was using (although after shaving the rubber off and pulling some weight they went over 208 and a spin and they still look mint).
However I was told not to bring the car back if I plan on running +200 with them.
Not going to argue this statement and I dont know if anyone else has had dealings with LK I know he just has my best interest at heart and truthfully like the guy (even though he can be a little hard lined).
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~JH
Lee Kennedy :? Never met him............................... :wink:
Still trying to figure out who keeps putting these yellow "tags" on my car though. I go pickup my driver and the car has a tag on it.............. :-D
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HotNuts - Lee Kennedy is one of those people that make Speed Week possible. He is asked a thousand questions and given very few solutions. However, if you ask him a question he will give you an answer. If the answer does not meet your requirements then that is a different problem. We all have to take the time and read the rule book every year - rules change - and apply them to our car and class. Look at the time and effort you sent fixing your problem at the Salt when you could have been racing.
Lee and Kiwi Steve do have your health and safety in mind when the look over your car - there is a lot of expierence in those two and their team of inspectors. Pat
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Pat,
I agree with you 100%. Those two guys and ALL of the inspectors are looking out for the safety of the racer. I appreciate ALL that they do. No matter if they have good things to say or things that I don't agree with, I will ALWAYS listen to them because they are there for ME and that means a lot to me. Thank you inspectors and all of the volunteers.
Funny Dad. I think Lee Kennedy is a new best friend of us LeFevers. :cheers: :-D
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HotNuts - Lee Kennedy is one of those people that make Speed Week possible. He is asked a thousand questions and given very few solutions. However, if you ask him a question he will give you an answer. If the answer does not meet your requirements then that is a different problem. We all have to take the time and read the rule book every year - rules change - and apply them to our car and class. Look at the time and effort you sent fixing your problem at the Salt when you could have been racing.
Lee and Kiwi Steve do have your health and safety in mind when the look over your car - there is a lot of experience in those two and their team of inspectors. Pat
Pat and Bville, I agree 100%.
The only issue I had is that after I installed the additional lugs he wanted to have a certified mechanical engineer say the hubs were not compromised by adding the lugs.
I am not saying this is bad....after all additional lugs were added and therefore the hubs had to be drilled to accommodate the studs.
BUT....
If I had modified the hubs at my house there would be no one calling out that they needed to be OKed by an engineer. These cars utilize thousands of components that are one offs and modified and those parts dont need to be inspected or certified by a qualified mechanical engineer.
-for instance-
I am currently drilling my new hubs to accommodate the giant studs in the picture. I am removing stock from the hub.....these wont need to be signed off on next year.
Thankfully, I knew someone that fit the bill regarding qualifications and was at SW. It was just really hard on us to have to need a person with those rare qualifications give us the OK. If this person didnt show up we wouldnt of been able to run.
This just seemed a little rough, that being said it all worked out. Again I know LK is just looking out for us and his decision was also in conjunction with not liking the front tires so there is more to the story.
Congratulations on making the heroic thrash work there in the pit.
Neil....you of all people knew the struggle we had......
3 years of running the car and that was the worst tech experience yet.....way worse than our first year in the new car line. Our inspector was in training and picked over details that were crazy.
I still cant sleep!
~JH
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Methinks that maybe those THIRTEEN by five old top fuel front tires outta be looked at REEEAL hard by BNI tech -Goodyear, as I understand it ,was nervous when they built them originally- I've mentioned this before -only because Garlits had put airplane tires on his car. (Yrs truly even witnessed "Big Daddy" re-doing the front axle @ Bakersfield to accept them when his wheels with belts on them didn't perform).
Most on the market are old and/or used (I've mentioned I own a set of "Stickers" myself).
I think Goodyear's expertise should be called on to determine their use in Landspeed racing.
HotNutz, why'd you SHAVE them?
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JH-
I understand where you are coming from, and I know that this makes things difficult. You have to admit, the jobs of Lee Kennedy and the inspectors isn't easy. Everyone just does the best they can. :cheers:
I'm glad that everthing worked out OK for you, and that you were able to race. It can be very fustrating to get all the way to the Salt and not being able to race. Just try and remember that most inspectors are racers too, and they are on your side looking out for your best interest.
I also agree with Mr. Bystander (I wish you would tell me who you are?) that these tires should be checked with Goodyear to see if they can withstand the speeds of LSR. Then we can bring to the attention of the SCTA Board Members. I don't think many people know enough about these tires, which could be why they create a problem.
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Jonny its the LUG NUTS that have to be 1 in not the studs :-P
JL222
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HotNutz, why'd you SHAVE them?
To reduce outside outside mass of the tire.
When the tire "went away" it just threw the rubber off the cord. The tire was still intact and held air.
(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs174.snc1/6532_1198395316082_1114496579_30656176_5282021_n.jpg)
By reducing the amount of extra rubber around the tire the outside doesnt generate the centrifugal force, causing less heat and keeps the tire together.
As crazy as this sounds.....in one run at 202 I lost two tires, one blistered and one as seen in the pic.
After shaving all the rubber off the spares I was able to run 208 (214.8 on GPS but had to keep lifting due to getting out of shape) but the tires didnt fail.
Clearly removing the extra rubber......as I was TOLD to do (but didnt the first time) was a factor in them not coming apart at the higher speed.
Once again I should of listened to the voice of experience. I didnt shave the first because I forgot, not because I didnt hear it....but my conscious knows that if I thought it was that important I wouldnt of overlooked it.
Jonny its the LUG NUTS that have to be 1 in not the studs tongue
JL222
Dang... do you know how much I had to pay for 2" lug nuts!!!!!
LOL
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Big NUTS are better :-D
JL222
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:-D
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Why oh why would you KICK a Sleeping dog!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by your own admission you had a bad case of the Dumb Head
---you "Forgot" to shave the tires and you didn't pick up on the wheel Studs change for over 200--- then you go try to cast dispersions on the inspectors---you should be having sleepless nights because you are kicking yourself so hard for being so" ------ " ---you hurt so hard you can't sleep at all !!!!!!!!!!!!! you should be thankfull you got to run...
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JH, if I look at some of the cars at speedweek (coming from a Professional car builder- fabricator) I myself would not pass alot of them, be greatfull you got to run ,just remember the faster you run the safer your car should be. If you are not comforable with welding and fabricating you should have a professional do it. Lee has years of engenering background as well as many record holding race cars under his belt. He knows what to look for.
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To Lee (Kennedy) and Kiwi (Steve) - this guys (and all the other tech guys) got there hearts on the right place - they hanging around in the heat to keep us safe...
To Lee - especially - it helps to have a sixpack of donouts under the paperwork...... :-D
Also - Jonny - you had the bad luck that to the time you was in the tech, Lee had a real Rockhardnuts in the tech in the shape of a German who had built a lakester and brought it over from Germany to the salt - may be the communication in Bavarian and American English didn't improve the situation :roll:
Five days later Lee and a workshop in Wendover had survived all his activities.
This, just as a excuse for Lee if he missed sometimes his normal mood.... :|
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Lee Kenndy ( dry lakes racing hall if fame inductie 2009 )
That's all I have to say bout that.
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Not positive since I have not inspeced in the last few years but there were quite a few Monzas with 4 lugs on the front running and they were definately 200 MPH cars. I always questioned this practice to chief inspectors but 5 was not stated in the rule book for fronts and they were never over 29" so I don't remember anything being done. They all did have 1" lug nuts. I would think 5 would be the mimimum especially over 200...
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I didnt want this to start being a session of me complaining, its true I overlooked the lug nuts...no doubt and its my fault. I feel lucky to have been able to run and again Lees requirements were based on a compromise between Lee and myself, his original option was to get the 5 bolt hubs and install them on the salt. Problem was that even if I found the hubs common wheels wouldnt fit due to the backset (I have custom wheels made due to the difference in track width between the RX7 rear end and the Fiat). It was really my pleading that I could add lugs that he allowed an engineer to OK them after doing the mods.
And I seen other cars over 200 that didnt have 1" lugs (the beautiful blue Rx7 from the Japanese team) for instance that had 5 lug wheels on gold alloy wheels. These were not 1" lugs.....but....whatever.....not for me to question why.
Again, Lee is tops in my book, I started this thread to show the changes to the car for next year and the hub story was just part of the journey.
~JH
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Jonny, I don't feel your complaining about anything. Over the years just by practice things have been over looked. For all I know all the Monza/Vega types have 5 lugs now but I doubt it. I agree with you knowing about another car which doesn't meet requirements; you hate to point out something that passes by other inspectors and dinged by yours. I too have the highest respect for Lee and others which have had that position. I've worked with him, beside him, and for him when he was the lead inspector I went to him often on structure advice. I'm an electrician with good mechanical skill but I don't know everything there is to know and never will.
The check off sheet is very important to me when looking at a vehicle and when I see something questionalble I ask the competitor and the lead inspector to look at it. I expect them to be consistant but as we change from one lead to another I know that may not be possible. We all must work together to keep us all safe.
Personally I kringed at the the use of 13" tires for land speed use; but I'm not on them and they've been allowed. Good luck...........JD
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JH
I have some knowledge of Goodyear 500 X 5 tires and offer this:
They were engineered by Les Garbicz at Goodyear, specifically for Don Garlits as stated. Les is now retired.
My engineering source at GY will NOT recommend those tires for anything over 200 MPH.
Almost everyone who has run them has had failures. Mostly chunking and/or tread separation.
I got caught up with them when I was doing my chassis with Mel Swain. Our thought was to use two in tandem on each side, therby getting the benefit of small frontal area, less turbulence, etc etc. AND not have issues with SCTA tech relative to failures since the load would be significantly less. This was in 2000, after I had retired the Merkur.
I had several sets of the tires, but decided after first running them on the salt in 2004 with the unsuspended front that a change was necessary, especially if I wanted to go really fast. 300+ Now being the target.
I have gone thru several iterations of front end design, and finally arrived at a very conventional single axle with 21 inch tires.
It just doesn't make sense to make compromises when I am in this for the long run. I considered solid or hollow aluminum, and Kevlar belt tires, but still keep going back to the size I am at now.
I had inhereted the Kevlar tires that Joe Law had originated. We figured out how to make them a tad better, but then the manufacturing source went away. (unfortunate because they were truly revolutionary and only 14 inches in dia)
Again I am led back to convention.
For me the only good for the Garlits tire is on my war wagon........
Now, about my friend LEE, well, its been said.
I have bumped heads with Lee and Miler Mike, but in every case they were perfect with the rule book and the protection of we, the drivers.
Your car has the capability of going much faster than just 200 MPH, and some really crazy things happen in the area of 200 to 225 MPH.
I'm sorry to preach and lecture, but this is an area I feel really strongly about. We cannot compromise our safety with innovation or what we may call out of the box thinking.
The gene pool suggests I can live to a pretty old age, and I intend on taking every advantage of that while still pursuing my passion of Land Speed Racing.
OK
back to lurk mode
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And I seen other cars over 200 that didnt have 1" lugs (the beautiful blue Rx7 from the Japanese team) for instance that had 5 lug wheels on gold alloy wheels. These were not 1" lugs.....but....whatever.....not for me to question why.
~JH
JNuts, alloy wheels usually don't use tapered seat lug nuts, they should have a quarter inch thick steel ring under lugnuts of whatever size fits them. Proper thread engagement is also required. The inspectors have your best interest at heart.... they will usually help you find a way to race if possible. If your tire had a problem, you now understand part of their concern.
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Stainless and JH. I have one set of 18" wheels forged aluminum that use the tapered lugs. They are 32" diameter and I decided to put an extra 1/4" thick plate on top of the existing lug nuts. I then use the 1" lug nut on backwards (flat side down). I did all this after installing long studs on all 4 wheels. I also made a set for the front with holes for the hub. The fronts on mine were 24" diameter.
There is always a way and there should be no excuses for not having proper rule meeting wheel attachments. Everyone always seem to want to take the easy way out or buy something at Pep Boys. These are all hybrid race cars and should be treated as such. . . . . .JD
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JD, ours required lugnuts with a shoulder and we made a quarter inch plate.
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Stain---- The most important thing with that style of lug nut is the threads need to come to the end of the lug.
Because I could not get the style of lug you have in the picture with 1" head I added the plate to the outside on my 28" wheel/tire combination to the ouside of the ones you show when I used them to go over 200. Needing to meet the rules takes a lot of ingenuity for our specialty race vehicles at times.
One of the nice things about inspecting vehicle for many years is seeing what others have done. "Stealing" ideas and also sharing them with others during inspections and on sites like this makes for a good days. The easiest one was the velcroed Duez tool to my switch panel. When competitors have the "Fjastad" fasteners I always remined them to have one on board and at least on in the push truck.....Good luck.
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nutz
I too have butted heads with Lee and Miler Mike... i have gained an absolute upmost respect for the both of them... and you will eventually also..... i would never put them in a posisition that would question their decisions and neithor should you.... they absolutely have your back without going into detail about their calls.... they may or may not like you but for shure they do not want to be a pallbearer at your funeral...... FOLLOW THEIR INSTRUCTIONS!
so..... others including myself advised you not to run those tires due to failures but you did anyhow and you had failures.... so ya shaved em and put a bandaid on the problem.... ya got luckey buddy
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My car Ratical has had issues with inspectors over 3 seasons---Lee has been there several times---I have never had issues with Lee K.---because not one time has he ever taken issue with the Ratical that there wasn't something on the car that he could point to or something that had happened on the race course---guess what ---now that I reworked the Ratical for the third time and changed enough "STUFF" that it gets down the course straight & gets its chute out in a timely manner--
my heart went to my throat when the BIG white Ford CC came rolling up after a 280 lisc. pass for Joey at SW Lee got out and started looking at the Chute---I rolled up and went over and asked if anything was wrong---{this was right after the MM had droped a chute on the course at 340}---he said no---he just like to stay up on the chute condition of the faster cars.
As FOX likes to say---FAIR & BALANCED--- in my opinion, that describes----Lee Kennedy
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JD, ours required lugnuts with a shoulder and we made a quarter inch plate.
Hey Stainless,
When i ran similar wheels, i cut the hex off those lugs on the lathe, flipped them around and threaded them on to the studs. This located the aluminum wheel, i was then able to use 1" lug nuts and 1/4" Washers.
Car passed tech and seem very stable.. Just thought i'd chime in...
Brett